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(Yahoo)   Chinese officials very upset that people are accusing their 15-year old female swimmer, who swam laps in the 400m freestyle faster than Michael Phelps or Ryan Lochte did in the same event, of using performance-enhancing drugs   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 222
    More: Obvious, Ryan Lochte, Chinese, world championship, Olympic Village, swimmer, Olympic Park, breaststrokes, individual medley  
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4000 clicks; posted to Sports » on 01 Aug 2012 at 3:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-01 04:24:41 PM

spiderpaz: The fact is, China has earned its reputation as cheaters, and it's been proven over and over.


Chinese has been busted cheating many times. Shall I give you a list of all the american track athletes who have popped a positive in the last decade? Wait here - I need to go get a bigger monitor.
 
rka
2012-08-01 04:26:38 PM

JohnBigBootay: spiderpaz: The fact is, China has earned its reputation as cheaters, and it's been proven over and over.

Chinese has been busted cheating many times. Shall I give you a list of all the american track athletes who have popped a positive in the last decade? Wait here - I need to go get a bigger monitor.


So when some American 16yr old beats a previous best by 5 seconds the world will have every right to look at it a bit funny.

That's how it works. Not "no one dare say anything because at some point we did it too".
 
2012-08-01 04:26:44 PM

YoungLochinvar: Do the finals get any easier if you ease up in a prelim? No. From what I've read, though, the badminton teams were throwing their games so they'd have an easier time in the medal round (by avoiding tougher teams or something). I view that as a significantly worse offense. Not sure they should've been tossed, though...


Eh, if it was as bad as they say something had to be done. I just wish that something hadn't been completely eliminating a lot of the best teams. They've all but rendered the medals ridiculous. They farked up, but they won't admit it.
 
2012-08-01 04:27:06 PM

JohnBigBootay: They undoubtedly have some dirty athletes as do 'we'. For me it's just about the instant reaction - our exceptional times are because of big hands and huge breakfasts, their are obviously because of steroids.


the only reason she even was in that race was because the original swimmer got busted for doping. i mean, come on. maybe its unfair, but how do you look at that situation and go "yeah, no, this seems totally legit. no possible question"?
 
2012-08-01 04:27:57 PM

JohnBigBootay: Serious Black: scottydoesntknow: Yukon Cornelius: I swam in high school. At 14, my best time in the 50 free was 45 seconds. At 15, I got it down to 38 seconds. Lots of changes going on in your teen years. Of course, I went from about 5'6" to 5'11" in that year.

The difference is those 5 seconds she shaved off made it a world record. Yes, everyone shaves off time as they grow and train, but when yoou shave off 5 seconds in one year, and that qualifies it for a world record, that is insane. Not impossible, but freakin insane.

At the 2002 Pan Pacific Games, Michael Phelps went 1:59.70 in the 200 IM to win the race. Less than a year later, he had broken the world record in that race four times and lowered it to 1:55.94.

He doesn't want to hear that. Someone posted a list of Intl level 4 second improvements in the last 4 years the other day. People say it doesn't happen -they are simply incorrect.


Hey thanks for speaking for me! Now point out where I said it "doesn't happen", because I'm pretty sure I said it wasn't impossible. I was just showing why people think it's extraordinary.
 
2012-08-01 04:28:23 PM

JohnBigBootay: spiderpaz: The fact is, China has earned its reputation as cheaters, and it's been proven over and over.

Chinese has been busted cheating many times. Shall I give you a list of all the american track athletes who have popped a positive in the last decade? Wait here - I need to go get a bigger monitor.


In the US some athletes get caught doping - and we are ashamed (as a group).

In China it's a government run athlete factory - it's not just individuals being unscrupulous.
 
2012-08-01 04:29:56 PM

rka: So when some American 16yr old beats a previous best by 5 seconds the world will have every right to look at it a bit funny.


Yet when phelps knocked four seconds off last olympics we had no suspicions. Because of the big breakfast I guess.

http://www.theage.com.au/olympics/swimming-london-2012/dont-be-too-qu i ck-to-question-chinese-success-20120731-23b6j.html

That article posted earlier is really quite well done and may answer some of your concerns or at least point out a few things that may temper your reaction. At the end of the day I don;t know that she clean and you damn sure don't know she's dirty.
 
2012-08-01 04:32:27 PM

tlchwi02: but how do you look at that situation and go "yeah, no, this seems totally legit. no possible question"?


I don't. I say, damn!, knowing that all medal winners are drug tested. If she doesn't come back positive, and she hasn't, what would you have me do?
 
2012-08-01 04:35:20 PM
There were suspicions on Phelps. Not in the US b/c the media there wasn't going to dig for it. However, other countries and athletes had their doubts.

Phelps was tagged as the next big thing when he was young and impressed at the 2004 games - then at the worlds. If Phelps was doping then it was him, or his coach, or his trainer. Not a country at large - a country which controls everything. They can provide any documents and testing they want bc they run everything. The one exception is the randoms that the IOC and the Swimming Federation administers.
 
2012-08-01 04:35:34 PM

rumpelstiltskin: When I was a kid in the 70s, I remember Bob Beamon's world record was an awesome thing. I don't remember any controversy, it was just cool that a human did that.
Strange things happen. It doesn't mean anyone cheated. There are people who are paid to suspect cheaters and root them out. I'm not one of them, so I'm just going to think it was an awesome swim until someone tells me otherwise, who has more evidence than "I thought about this really hard, and I decided she cheated."


Where were you during the Ryan Braun threads?
 
2012-08-01 04:38:28 PM

HotWingConspiracy: If she was American, NBC would have aired a fawning hour long documentary on what she ate for breakfast already and everyone would be trumpeting our swimming program's dominance.


Wheaties, the breakfast of champions, obviously.
 
2012-08-01 04:39:24 PM

BrotherMalcolm: In the US some athletes get caught doping - and we are ashamed (as a group).

In China it's a government run athlete factory - it's not just individuals being unscrupulous.



So, you want me to say bad things about the totalitarian chinese government? Ok, I think they often behave poorly and they should be ashamed. That certainly doesn't mean all the chinese medal winners are dirty any more than all the us track athletes should be guilty by association because of marion jones. I don't think most americans 'are ashamed' when athletes get caught doping. Take your lance armstrong. He's celebrated coast to coast despite half his TDF teams being chock full of dopers. I don't see a lot of embarrassment when toasting those victories even though every single one of those teams contained verified drug cheats. Would he have won without the confirmed cheaters ferrying him up the hill? I don't know.
 
2012-08-01 04:42:07 PM

JohnBigBootay: tlchwi02: but how do you look at that situation and go "yeah, no, this seems totally legit. no possible question"?

I don't. I say, damn!, knowing that all medal winners are drug tested. If she doesn't come back positive, and she hasn't, what would you have me do?


Because the cheaters are never one step ahead of the testers? And the testing orgs and/ or judges are never able to be bribed by the richest countries in the world?

Both have occurred recently!

Most people have accepted that Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds were on something at some point....yet neither every tested positive. Meanwhile, most everyone else around them that were pretty darn good but not quite at their level were testing positive. Then we find out that Bonds and Balco had drugs that were not showing up on the current tests.
 
2012-08-01 04:42:19 PM

scottydoesntknow: Hey thanks for speaking for me! Now point out where I said it "doesn't happen", because I'm pretty sure I said it wasn't impossible. I was just showing why people think it's extraordinary.


I wasn't referring to you in particular with the 'people say' comment. Apologies anyway though.
 
2012-08-01 04:45:12 PM

JohnBigBootay: BrotherMalcolm: In the US some athletes get caught doping - and we are ashamed (as a group).

In China it's a government run athlete factory - it's not just individuals being unscrupulous.


So, you want me to say bad things about the totalitarian chinese government? Ok, I think they often behave poorly and they should be ashamed. That certainly doesn't mean all the chinese medal winners are dirty any more than all the us track athletes should be guilty by association because of marion jones. I don't think most americans 'are ashamed' when athletes get caught doping. Take your lance armstrong. He's celebrated coast to coast despite half his TDF teams being chock full of dopers. I don't see a lot of embarrassment when toasting those victories even though every single one of those teams contained verified drug cheats. Would he have won without the confirmed cheaters ferrying him up the hill? I don't know.


First - he is not my Lance Armstrong. I am English.

I do live in the US and while I think he is the best cyclist of all time it's because in a time of doping he was the best at it!
 
2012-08-01 04:45:40 PM

BrotherMalcolm: Because the cheaters are never one step ahead of the testers? And the testing orgs and/ or judges are never able to be bribed by the richest countries in the world?

Both have occurred recently!

Most people have accepted that Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds were on something at some point....yet neither every tested positive. Meanwhile, most everyone else around them that were pretty darn good but not quite at their level were testing positive. Then we find out that Bonds and Balco had drugs that were not showing up on the current tests.



So I should go ahead and assume she's guilty? Sorry. She's being tested - right now at these very games with the latest greatest tests they have. They'll certainly tell us if she tests positive. And at that point I will condemn the peking duck out of her. If she doesn't, sorry, I'm not gonna be able to get on board with assuming she's a cheat.
 
2012-08-01 04:49:16 PM

BrotherMalcolm: I do live in the US and while I think he is the best cyclist of all time it's because in a time of doping he was the best at it!


Well, congrats to Mr Wiggins. I hope he's as clean as a whistle. I think lance is the best TDF cyclist of all time. I do strongly suspect he doped as well.... in that I don't think there's a top 100 guy who hasn't... but I'll go with M. Merckx as best cyclist all around though.
 
2012-08-01 04:50:36 PM
The suspicious thing to me is all of the negative splitting going on with the Chinese swimmers. They are going out there and then the last 50m they are closing with superhuman speeds when they should be oxygen deprived. There are alot of examples of this, not just Ye Shiwen - look at the girl who just won the 200 fly, Jiao. Compare it with the US swimmers. Soni's WR swim was progressively slower times. The Chinese girl's near WR time in the 200 fly had a final split of 31.31 - A good second faster than anyone else, at a time when your body needs oxygen the most. Now it's possible they are so well conditioned to do negative splits that this is the result - but it's very suspicious to me. At the elite level, this typically means you have more oxygen in your system at the end because you're doing something. The fly is an incredibly tough oxygen eater. And that 200fly girl had the fastest split time in the non techsuit era - the fastest non 50m split time of ANYONE in the whole event (aside from the first 50m split which includes time off the blocks). And at the end of the race? I swam in high school, the fly is an awful tough swim.

I'm not going to say any of these girls cheated and I'm not going to say the US doesn't take PEDs also. But it is very suspicious and I would not be surprised at all to discover doping was occuring. One of the 400 IMers was caught with EPO before the Olympics - EPO is a type of drug that I guarantee you gives you more in the tank at the end of endurance events, which are the types of events they are winning. The Chinese have a history of it (just as the US does, we should admit, although everyone in track and field dopes, trust me).
 
2012-08-01 04:52:26 PM
I also do not ASSUME she is guilty. I am however very suspicious. I and many other sport fans have been let down by stars that at one point we rooted for then to find out later they to were cheating (Manny Ramirez, Rodney Harrison)

The fact that she is Chinese unfortunately provides some guilt by association. Truly tragic if she is innocent. Hell, she MAY have been cheating totally unbeknownst to her. She was in primary schools as a young girl - next thing she is in a Chicom swim factory and told to swim, serve her country, and her family will prosper. As a young girl she is lucky she was executed for not being born a male.
 
2012-08-01 04:52:48 PM

bdub77: EPO


They are testing for EPO at these games. One would assume, perhaps erroneously, that if they are taking it they'll test positive for it.
 
2012-08-01 04:59:10 PM
She won because she best swimmer in pool. American with there big penisis think they better than Chinese. fark them.
 
2012-08-01 05:01:11 PM

BrotherMalcolm: The fact that she is Chinese unfortunately provides some guilt by association.


See, that's sort of my problem. Not that china hasn't had lots of doping problems - they certainly have. But I can site here and quite easily rattle off 20 household name American athletes (not necessarily olympians) who have tested positive for PED's in the last decade. I honestly don't know what I consider worse - a nameless state run program or a number of individuals voluntarily choosing to cheat. We Americans often seem to exempt our own celebrated athletes... like armstrong who at the very least was greatly aided by systemic cheating. Carl Lewis tested positive but no one ever even brings it up.
 
2012-08-01 05:04:28 PM
Some drugs and doping methods have certain windows where you test positive for them.
The EPO indicators (they do not actually test for "EPO") can take as long as a month or a quick as a 24-48 hrs (depending) to clear.

There all always new metods of hiding the precursors and indicators. Athletes in the past have even gone so far a to have huge transfusions of their own blood! Go on some cycling, track, or body building sites! It's amazing. Not sure how acurate the HGH test are still - they are still learning about it.
 
2012-08-01 05:06:21 PM

BrotherMalcolm: Athletes in the past have even gone so far a to have huge transfusions of their own blood!


I've been thinking about doing this for weekend bike rides but I don't think my wife would let me keep it in the fridge.
 
2012-08-01 05:06:22 PM
Meh. This all pretty much sour grapes until she pops dirty on a test.

However I will say that it is possible to make a PED that won't show up on test and she could be using that. And for the people who are skeptical of that just look up Balco. For years they were giving athletes their own designer PED's that weren't showing up on any test and weren't found out until a track coach took a sample of what Balco had offered one of his runners to the IOC to get it tested.
 
2012-08-01 05:07:19 PM

JohnBigBootay: Serious Black: Morpheses: Is this the thread where the same people who accuse Armstrong of doping come to defend this swimmer because she's never tested positive?

Heh.

I should find the latest Armstrong/USADA thread and cross-reference it with this thread sometime.

Yep. Lance just trains hard and he's a genetic freak. Half his domestiques have tested positive but he was clean the entire time.

Soooo. Is passing drug tests proof of being clean or is it not proof of being clean?

/awaits equivocation


I'd agree. There's just as much of a chance that he was doping as Ye Shiwen is doping currently. I have no idea if either of them actually did. All we know is that all of their tests have come back clean. We have to presume innocence.
 
2012-08-01 05:09:04 PM
People can't really be this naive about PEDs.
 
2012-08-01 05:11:09 PM

Serious Black: JohnBigBootay: Serious Black: Morpheses: Is this the thread where the same people who accuse Armstrong of doping come to defend this swimmer because she's never tested positive?

Heh.

I should find the latest Armstrong/USADA thread and cross-reference it with this thread sometime.

Yep. Lance just trains hard and he's a genetic freak. Half his domestiques have tested positive but he was clean the entire time.

Soooo. Is passing drug tests proof of being clean or is it not proof of being clean?

/awaits equivocation

I'd agree. There's just as much of a chance that he was doping as Ye Shiwen is doping currently. I have no idea if either of them actually did. All we know is that all of their tests have come back clean. We have to presume innocence.


Which is for me a very high percentage. Lance was almost definitely doping. Hell most of those TdF guys are doping. I don't believe for a second that Lance is innocent, but he was probably very good about keeping it a secret. I always thought since the guy only had one testicle that he could be doing testosterone and maybe it wasn't even showing up irregular for him. (That said I have no idea if that is even scientifically credible.)
 
2012-08-01 05:15:12 PM

JohnBigBootay: So, you want me to say bad things about the totalitarian chinese government?


I think his point is that an american or british or laotian athlete trains generally as an individual- the coach and the athlete work together in a private facility, then the athlete comes to the countries sponsored olympic trials and if they have the skills they get on the team. If an athlete is doping under those conditions, it is something they are doing as an individual or an individual/coach. The US olympic team is not aware of or aiding that.

with the chinese the government committee goes around the country, collecting the best athletes and bringing them to special sponsored camps where their diets, training and living quarters are all monitored by a team of government coaches. The chinese teams have copped in the past to organizing doping for the entire group under those conditions (which was originally a big thing in east germany.)

The idea then is that a system which has admitted to organized doping at the system level (rather than an individual level) which is still having team members getting caught in the tests casts more suspicion on the rest of the team members than a system where the individual athletes are not under the direction of a central controller.
 
2012-08-01 05:15:47 PM

tlchwi02: So it sucks for her, but China made their bed by allowing cheating to go on for so long, and now they have to sleep in it


Bad Mitton, BAD.
/sorry, had to use that one last time.
//is occasionally shameless
 
2012-08-01 05:18:52 PM

Slives: Personally I think she is clean. China is working very hard on its image as one of the greatest countries in the world.


Which they showed by cheating in Badminton.
 
2012-08-01 05:21:34 PM
I'm surprised everyone is taking the "15 year old" part at face value. China also has been caught altering the ages of past Olympic athletes.
 
2012-08-01 05:21:57 PM

RexTalionis: Magorn: Perhaps, but considering this girl has shaved 5 seconds off her personal best in 1 YEAR

Is it really so unbelievable that a girl can shave 5 seconds off their best in 1 year? I mean, last year, she was 15. I don't know if you remember when you were that age, but I gained a lot of inches in height between 15 and 16 as well as a lot more muscle.


At the top level in that specific event? Yeah.

The last time it happened was Atlanta and the medal was stripped because the woman was doping. In that case she wasn't beating the times of the best men in the world either.

And China has already been caught doping their swimmers in recent history as well.
 
2012-08-01 05:23:32 PM

tlchwi02: The idea then is that a system which has admitted to organized doping at the system level (rather than an individual level) which is still having team members getting caught in the tests casts more suspicion on the rest of the team members than a system where the individual athletes are not under the direction of a central controller.


Well said.

Yeah, I get that. If and when a chinese track/swimmer tests positive at these games I will pity them, knowing it likely wasn't even their choice to do so.
 
2012-08-01 05:25:33 PM

astroman05: I'm surprised everyone is taking the "15 year old" part at face value. China also has been caught altering the ages of past Olympic athletes.


Only in cases where there is a benefit or rules regarding age. There is neither in this case.
 
2012-08-01 05:25:40 PM

SharkTrager: Which they showed by cheating in Badminton.


One must work very hard at trying to equate intentionally losing a prelim, against someone else intentionally trying to lose a prelim, with taking PED's. So good job.
 
2012-08-01 05:26:05 PM

astroman05: I'm surprised everyone is taking the "15 year old" part at face value. China also has been caught altering the ages of past Olympic athletes.


You think she's 14? There's no reason to say she's 15 if she's older, the only reason to lie about ages in the olympics is to get younger people into the contest, and that pretty much only matters for women's gymnastics.
 
2012-08-01 05:26:29 PM
The real issue is that this seems to follow the format that the East German women used.

There are multiple groups of swimmers, only some are seen at international competitions (this one hadn't been at a meet in a year and a half or so). They're all on different doping regimen. The ones out in the public eye are going to be regularly tested, you can use them to find out what WADA is capable of catching. The ones not at meets aren't tested because they don't have "official" times that are fast enough to warrant it. When the public athletes get caught, the athletes on the right doping/cleansing cycles take their spot.

You're not going to catch her with a drug test, unless a blood sample is saved and tested a few years down the road with advanced testing procedures.
 
2012-08-01 05:28:31 PM

SharkTrager: astroman05: I'm surprised everyone is taking the "15 year old" part at face value. China also has been caught altering the ages of past Olympic athletes.

Only in cases where there is a benefit or rules regarding age. There is neither in this case.


You mean other than the fact that one could argue the best age for showing unbelievable progression is between 15 and 16? If this girl was 20 it would probably look a lot weirder. That being said I highly doubt this is the case.
 
2012-08-01 05:29:57 PM
you are a moron if you think she is clean. a naive moron. Go back to kissing your Lance Armstrong posters. Dopes. pun intended.
 
2012-08-01 05:31:11 PM

SharkTrager: Slives: Personally I think she is clean. China is working very hard on its image as one of the greatest countries in the world.

Which they showed by cheating in Badminton.


I, uh, how can that slives say that with a straight face. uh, wait. Type that with a straight finger?
 
2012-08-01 05:33:21 PM

cretinbob: cmunic8r99: Since she hasn't tested positive for performance enhancing drugs, perhaps they should be upset.

Yes, it might just be possible that, you know, she's a faster swimmer.


Her medley was telling. Good performance in the first three styles and a blazing free-style finish. If she was on performance-enhancing drugs, she would have done better in the fixed styles. I think she has just trained her free-style stroke to perfection.
 
2012-08-01 05:36:39 PM

cmunic8r99: Since she hasn't tested positive for performance enhancing drugs, perhaps they should be upset.


Armstrong never tested positive either. Blood transfusions are an amazing thing.
 
2012-08-01 05:38:46 PM

natazha: cretinbob: cmunic8r99: Since she hasn't tested positive for performance enhancing drugs, perhaps they should be upset.

Yes, it might just be possible that, you know, she's a faster swimmer.

Her medley was telling. Good performance in the first three styles and a blazing free-style finish. If she was on performance-enhancing drugs, she would have done better in the fixed styles. I think she has just trained her free-style stroke to perfection.


She's on China's 800 free relay for finals. Her performance there will show whether that's true or not. With that kind of a finish on her 400 IM, I would expect her to be able to split at least a 1:56.
 
2012-08-01 05:47:22 PM

Magorn: I_C_Weener: Is she as hairy as an East German female athlete? No. Then she's as innocent as old one ball Armstrong.

No but she does look like a distant relative of Arnold Schwarzenegger and that "lantern jaw" is a tell when it comes to steriod use


My personal belief is that at least half the athletes are on something undetectable via tests. There is a decent amount of money (sponsorship, not prize) and lots of national pride on the line here. Lots of nationals are likely supporting some interesting pharmaceutical programs for their athletes. The magical 5 second drop and the fact she beat some male swimmers legs to me just says her coach got greedy and gave her too much of whatever before the race. You have to dope them to the point they have plausible deniability and this guy likely went beyond that.
 
2012-08-01 05:56:59 PM

Morpheses: Personally, I think they all dope. If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'.


It's like they should have doping without being detected an Olympic sport
 
2012-08-01 05:59:05 PM

srhp29: Are there stories in other countries every olympics about how we only win because we cheat too? Anytime China does well, there are stories about how they are probably cheating.


You mean the communist country known for doping their swimmers?
 
2012-08-01 06:04:28 PM
Foreigners should be only allowed to takes drugs that will make them lose to Americans. That way the integrity of the sport will be maintained.
 
2012-08-01 06:05:26 PM

links136: srhp29: Are there stories in other countries every olympics about how we only win because we cheat too? Anytime China does well, there are stories about how they are probably cheating.

You mean the communist country known for doping their swimmers?


All medalists are drug tested. Show me the positive and I will happily deride her. Right now though I'm assuming big hands and a 12,000 calorie breakfast. If China has a way to beat drug tests then why did those other aforementioned swimmers from China get caught?
 
2012-08-01 06:09:37 PM

uksocal: There are multiple groups of swimmers, only some are seen at international competitions (this one hadn't been at a meet in a year and a half or so).


Yeah. She's more mysterious and elusive than Carlos the Jackal she is. And she has been hiding out. Hiding in plain sight I suppose, like when she won a gold medal last year at the world championships. Ingenious - no one would ever have thought to look for her there.
 
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