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(Antiwar)   If the enemy is Iran and the enemy of our enemy is our friend, does it make sense to help Al Qaeda?   (original.antiwar.com) divider line 71
    More: Interesting, al-Qaeda, human beings, Iran, Syrians, safe zone, Yoshiaki Iwasaki, Seymour Hersh, non-governmental organizations  
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618 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Aug 2012 at 11:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-08-01 11:25:14 AM
Why not? It worked for Reagan.
 
2012-08-01 11:26:49 AM
Short answer: no.

Long answer:
mysteryworlds.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-08-01 11:28:53 AM
www.indybay.org
 
2012-08-01 11:29:00 AM

qorkfiend: Short answer: no.

Long answer:
[mysteryworlds.files.wordpress.com image 540x650]


I was going to post something along the lines of: "Why not? It worked out so well the first time we did it!"

But your post more effectively conveyed the point.
 
2012-08-01 11:29:42 AM
No.

sprawl15: Why not? It worked for Reagan.


Also, no.
 
2012-08-01 11:30:09 AM

qorkfiend: Short answer: no.

Long answer:
[mysteryworlds.files.wordpress.com image 540x650]


Done in two.
 
2012-08-01 11:30:32 AM
Maybe. Didn't many Afghan muhajadeen become Al Qaeda? But Iran isn't the Soviet Union. And how did that work out for us?
 
2012-08-01 11:31:43 AM
No, we replaced them with our own religious fundamentalists who want to topple the nation's government.
 
2012-08-01 11:32:33 AM
What a cool website. Makes me want to bomb someone.
 
2012-08-01 11:32:54 AM
Kind of reminds me of another Clintonian production - Waco. There, too, Christians were slaughtered as the whole world watched, sending a message unmistakable in its ominous implications.

Because if a secular group formed an isolationist cult that enforced membership through abduction and brainwashing and stockpiled military-grade weapons and munitions including anti-vehicle munitions with the explicitly stated attempt at starting an armed uprising, the state would have been totally cool with it and would have let them get on with their thing.

Yup, it was the Christian part that got them arrested and caused the cops doing the arrest to have heavier backup than usual. Definitely the Christian part.

//WTF is it with this week? Every time I think something is the dumbest article I've ever seen, another one tops it less than 24 hours later. Mods having a "link any site, no matter how crazy" competition or something?
 
2012-08-01 11:33:21 AM
Since everyone in the MidEast is the enemy of everyone else, no.
 
2012-08-01 11:33:38 AM
 
2012-08-01 11:33:50 AM
Yes, there's no way that could ever blow up in our faces. I see no problem.

A better, saner question would be, If the enemy is Al Qaeda and the enemy of our enemy is our friend, does it make sense to help Iran? Of course, if one were to ask such a question Michelle Bachmann would probably use it as an excuse to slander you, and it's quite possible that you would get murdered by a nutjob. Remember, kids: it was okay for Saint Reagan to pal around with terrorists, but you better not, and just to be safe you should trample the rights of all Muslims while ignoring the fact that the second worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil was committed by a white American.
 
2012-08-01 11:34:01 AM
Short answers: are you farking retarded?
 
2012-08-01 11:34:30 AM

qorkfiend: Short answer: no.

Long answer: nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


ftfm
 
2012-08-01 11:35:11 AM
something something doomed to repeat it...
 
2012-08-01 11:37:38 AM
There is no "good" ending to this.

The wheels are already turning too fast, with the number of defecting senior officials and even with superior military power, it is only a matter of time before Asad is out.

Asad was Iran's only real friend in the region, and supports Hezobllah by smuggling/giving them arms - But even though he has CBW, he's not stupid enough to give it to them. We didn't like him, but he was a stable, rational player for many years and predictable. If his government collapses uncontrolled and those go missing/unprotected, it's only a matter of time before Hezbollah guys get ahold of them. Then we have a whole lot of dead people in Israel, a very real possibility of a CBW attack in the US, and a regional cross-border war breaks out. It also sets off a full-blown Iran war scenario.

OTOH, we, (US, NATO, UN) could support the rebels with a no-fly-zone, and make deals that they'll get air support in exchange for the CBW. While the conflict goes on, we get small SOF forces with boots on the ground to secure said weapons, but let the rebels win the thing on their own. Radicals may take over or may not, but the end and most important result is that the CBW are secure and not lost/in terrorist hands.

Either way we end up with a failed state and a humanitarian crisis, but the second way, at least the big weapons are kept away from the crazies, and that's all that really matters in this scenario or is worth controlling. And it avoids regional war/WWIII
 
2012-08-01 11:38:40 AM
Aren't "we" already kind of funding them again?
 
2012-08-01 11:38:53 AM
Does it make sense? No. Are we already doing it? Probably. At any given time half the CIA is actively spying on the groups the other half is propping up.

/"How can you pick out the FBI agents in Communist Party of the US?" "They're the ones that pay their dues"
 
2012-08-01 11:38:58 AM
Oh, for fark's sake...
 
2012-08-01 11:40:09 AM

malaktaus: Yes, there's no way that could ever blow up in our faces. I see no problem.

A better, saner question would be, If the enemy is Al Qaeda and the enemy of our enemy is our friend, does it make sense to help Iran? Of course, if one were to ask such a question Michelle Bachmann would probably use it as an excuse to slander you, and it's quite possible that you would get murdered by a nutjob. Remember, kids: it was okay for Saint Reagan to pal around with terrorists, but you better not, and just to be safe you should trample the rights of all Muslims while ignoring the fact that the second worst terrorist attack on U.S. soil was committed by a white American.


Iran as a nation is actually pretty cool, the population is pretty secular and actually quite educated, and it's been doing its best to modernize. A lot of our scientists come from there-- not a huge number since it's not a really big nation, but quite a few.

The problem is that the national government of Iran is none of those things. They were talked into nuclear power, something that's just eminently sensible for a nation in their situation, because of the potential to make weapons. That is to say, they have the worst ass-backwards priorities of even any theocrats we know.
 
2012-08-01 11:40:35 AM
I think everyone has already covered this thread.

But i'd like to reiterate:
The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less.

Al Qaeda does not have the same interest that we have with Iran. If Al Qaeda deposes the current religious rule with their own brand of fundamentalist rule for themselves how does that comport with our goal of turning Iran into a secular democracy that doesn't harbor terrorists?

You only have to do 60 seconds of actual thinking to throw out this idiotic hypothesis.
 
2012-08-01 11:41:32 AM

Jim_Callahan: Kind of reminds me of another Clintonian production - Waco. There, too, Christians were slaughtered as the whole world watched, sending a message unmistakable in its ominous implications.

Because if a secular group formed an isolationist cult that enforced membership through abduction and brainwashing and stockpiled military-grade weapons and munitions including anti-vehicle munitions with the explicitly stated attempt at starting an armed uprising, the state would have been totally cool with it and would have let them get on with their thing.

Yup, it was the Christian part that got them arrested and caused the cops doing the arrest to have heavier backup than usual. Definitely the Christian part.

//WTF is it with this week? Every time I think something is the dumbest article I've ever seen, another one tops it less than 24 hours later. Mods having a "link any site, no matter how crazy" competition or something?


Back when Waco was going on, I remember Christians being upset because they said Koresh claimed to be the second coming. Now he's one of us? WTF?
 
2012-08-01 11:42:36 AM
No posts other than the first three are needed.
 
2012-08-01 11:43:06 AM
I thought the entirety of Islam was our enemy.
 
2012-08-01 11:44:51 AM
good to see antiwar.com linked here.
 
2012-08-01 11:45:36 AM

qorkfiend: Short answer: no.

Long answer:
[mysteryworlds.files.wordpress.com image 540x650]


Over in two.

9/11 was an inside job thanks to war criminal Dick Cheney.
 
2012-08-01 11:46:16 AM

Jim_Callahan: The problem is that the national government of Iran is none of those things. They were talked into nuclear power, something that's just eminently sensible for a nation in their situation, because of the potential to make weapons. That is to say, they have the worst ass-backwards priorities of even any theocrats we know.


Iraq didn't have nukes, look what happened to them. Meanwhile North Korea shiats on us regularly, and we respond by making fun of their leader for being a fatass, and that's about all we do. Considering the rhetoric coming from the USA, Iran's government would be criminally negligent if they didn't pursue nuclear technology. That's not to say they aren't terrible, but attempting to develop nuclear weapons might be the sanest thing they've ever done. We have sown the wind and are reaping the whirlwind.
 
2012-08-01 11:46:53 AM

mentula: good to see antiwar.com linked here.


Fark has been sponsored by Reynold's aluminum foil division, so expect to see them more often.
 
2012-08-01 11:46:55 AM

duffman13: There is no "good" ending to this.

The wheels are already turning too fast, with the number of defecting senior officials and even with superior military power, it is only a matter of time before Asad is out.

Asad was Iran's only real friend in the region, and supports Hezobllah by smuggling/giving them arms - But even though he has CBW, he's not stupid enough to give it to them. We didn't like him, but he was a stable, rational player for many years and predictable. If his government collapses uncontrolled and those go missing/unprotected, it's only a matter of time before Hezbollah guys get ahold of them. Then we have a whole lot of dead people in Israel, a very real possibility of a CBW attack in the US, and a regional cross-border war breaks out. It also sets off a full-blown Iran war scenario.

OTOH, we, (US, NATO, UN) could support the rebels with a no-fly-zone, and make deals that they'll get air support in exchange for the CBW. While the conflict goes on, we get small SOF forces with boots on the ground to secure said weapons, but let the rebels win the thing on their own. Radicals may take over or may not, but the end and most important result is that the CBW are secure and not lost/in terrorist hands.

Either way we end up with a failed state and a humanitarian crisis, but the second way, at least the big weapons are kept away from the crazies, and that's all that really matters in this scenario or is worth controlling. And it avoids regional war/WWIII


Interesting ideas, but I think we'll have real problems with:
1. Getting the rebels to truly turn over all CBW
2. Getting UN/NATO/USA political will to actually put boots on the ground without there being a shiatstorm
3. Getting boots on the ground without a shiatstorm from the rebels and every neighboring arab country
4. Actually finding all the CBW

I mean, I understand the urgency and I think the plan's an alright one, but I don't think it will happen for the above stated reasons.
 
2012-08-01 11:48:05 AM

Cletus C.: What a cool website. Makes me want to bomb someone.


Congratulations, you're now qualified to hold a cabinet post in any Republican administration in the past 40 years!

On a more serious note ...

Would we even need to have this discussion if we had helped them build schools and roads after we gave them Stinger missiles instead of just saying "oh, hey, you beat the Russians. Cool. Bye."
 
2012-08-01 11:48:43 AM

malaktaus: Meanwhile North Korea shiats on us regularly


How does North Korea "shiat on us regularly"?
 
2012-08-01 11:50:16 AM
It doesn't count if the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy.
 
2012-08-01 11:51:22 AM

minnesotaboy: 9/11 was an inside job thanks to war criminal Dick Cheney


Cheney's a war criminal but you're not helping with the truther shiat.
 
2012-08-01 11:51:26 AM
weknowmemes.com

/Hot as a jungle full of Contras.
 
2012-08-01 11:52:44 AM

sprawl15: Why not? It worked for Reagan.


^ THIS ^


/people don't know the US supported al queda, the CIA even paid OBL to run interference in the middle east against the Russians.
 
2012-08-01 11:54:03 AM

qorkfiend: malaktaus: Meanwhile North Korea shiats on us regularly

How does North Korea "shiat on us regularly"?


Uh, have you seen those news reports where Kim Jong Un goes to a supermarket? He's, like, looking at fish and meat! Look at the cornucopia of plenty North Korea is! Have you ever seen Obama go to a supermarket, pick up a container of food, and have that rebroadcast 24/7 across the country, verifying that food exists for all citizens? I DIDN'T THINK SO.
 
2012-08-01 11:54:33 AM

Mugato: Cheney's a war criminal but you're not helping with the truther shiat.


and you're a f*cking moron in denial; you can't possibly believe our own gov would do something so heinous. Google MK Ultra

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/911smokingguns.html
 
2012-08-01 11:54:47 AM
It's so nice to see the left so PRO-WAR.
 
2012-08-01 11:56:32 AM

sprawl15: Fark has been sponsored by Reynold's aluminum foil division, so expect to see them more often.


Reynold's is the consumer products division of Alcoa.
 
2012-08-01 11:56:40 AM

phreezen: It's so nice to see the left so PRO-WAR.


Account created:

2012-06-29 21:02:11


WELCOME back TO FARK
 
2012-08-01 11:57:00 AM
We should ask Oliver North. He's a respected journalist now, and not in any way a criminal.
 
2012-08-01 11:57:20 AM

phreezen: It's so nice to see the left so PRO-WAR.


o_O
 
2012-08-01 11:59:00 AM
Well we supported the Lybian rebels , but I'm sure Lybia will be a progressive Jeffersonian democracy with equal rights for women and gays pretty soon.
 
2012-08-01 11:59:50 AM

EyeballKid: phreezen: It's so nice to see the left so PRO-WAR.

Account created:

2012-06-29 21:02:11


WELCOME back TO FARK


You have got to laugh at the left who post Regan pics and favor War. The smugness and hypocrisy of the left is simply delightful.
 
2012-08-01 12:02:25 PM

urban.derelict: Mugato: Cheney's a war criminal but you're not helping with the truther shiat.

and you're a f*cking moron in denial; you can't possibly believe our own gov would do something so heinous. Google MK Ultra

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/911smokingguns.html


Dude, I don't know if you're a troll or not but I'm not going to get into a farking truther debate with you. So believe what you want.

...and you can type out "farking" on this site, it filters it. You don't have to hide it with an asterisk, it makes you look like an even bigger asshole.
 
2012-08-01 12:03:31 PM

phreezen:
You have got to laugh at the left who post Regan pics



www.gorestruly.com
 
2012-08-01 12:06:27 PM

qorkfiend: malaktaus: Meanwhile North Korea shiats on us regularly

How does North Korea "shiat on us regularly"?


By threatening us and our allies with war over the slightest provocation, or over nothing at all? By essentially forcing us to give them food, with the implicit threat of nuclear holocaust in Seoul if we refuse, meanwhile spending every last cent they have on the military?
 
2012-08-01 12:06:59 PM

phreezen: EyeballKid: phreezen: It's so nice to see the left so PRO-WAR.

Account created:

2012-06-29 21:02:11


WELCOME back TO FARK

You have got to laugh at the left who post Regan pics and favor War. The smugness and hypocrisy of the left is simply delightful.


What in the name of fark are you talking about
 
2012-08-01 12:08:38 PM

Esc7: duffman13: There is no "good" ending to this.

The wheels are already turning too fast, with the number of defecting senior officials and even with superior military power, it is only a matter of time before Asad is out.

Asad was Iran's only real friend in the region, and supports Hezobllah by smuggling/giving them arms - But even though he has CBW, he's not stupid enough to give it to them. We didn't like him, but he was a stable, rational player for many years and predictable. If his government collapses uncontrolled and those go missing/unprotected, it's only a matter of time before Hezbollah guys get ahold of them. Then we have a whole lot of dead people in Israel, a very real possibility of a CBW attack in the US, and a regional cross-border war breaks out. It also sets off a full-blown Iran war scenario.

OTOH, we, (US, NATO, UN) could support the rebels with a no-fly-zone, and make deals that they'll get air support in exchange for the CBW. While the conflict goes on, we get small SOF forces with boots on the ground to secure said weapons, but let the rebels win the thing on their own. Radicals may take over or may not, but the end and most important result is that the CBW are secure and not lost/in terrorist hands.

Either way we end up with a failed state and a humanitarian crisis, but the second way, at least the big weapons are kept away from the crazies, and that's all that really matters in this scenario or is worth controlling. And it avoids regional war/WWIII

Interesting ideas, but I think we'll have real problems with:
1. Getting the rebels to truly turn over all CBW
2. Getting UN/NATO/USA political will to actually put boots on the ground without there being a shiatstorm
3. Getting boots on the ground without a shiatstorm from the rebels and every neighboring arab country
4. Actually finding all the CBW

I mean, I understand the urgency and I think the plan's an alright one, but I don't think it will happen for the above stated reasons.


Valid points. I just don't trust a stable transition and security of those weapons when Asad eventually does fall. It'll most likely end up a clusterfark on par with 2006 Iraq, and god know where those weapons would end up.

I wouldn't be opposed to the US unilaterally putting some teams in to secure known sites and destroy or take any CBW they find. Then leave and let the Syrians sort it out themselves. Israel has already stated publicly they're going to blow the hell out of every CBW site they know if they ahve any indications that Hezbollah has gotten control of the facilities.

The thing to recognize too is that this is *not* Iraq. The fact that Asad has CBW is well known and monitored by us, Israel, etc. I'll bet money we have a good idea where 90% of the stuff is as well. We don't have to stay to fix it either, because unlike Iraq we did not break it, and we're just doing a sweep&clear operation to prevent CBW from falling into terrorist hands in a failed state.
 
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