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(WILX Michigan)   A man, a plan, a canal: Nicaragua?   (wilx.com) divider line 60
    More: Interesting, Nicaraguan, Panama Canal, Caribbean Sea, canals  
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7582 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jul 2012 at 2:10 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-07-31 11:37:49 AM  
In the 1980s we should have settled the Contra vs. Sandinista question by resurrecting Project Plowshare and building a sea level canal through Nicaragua.
 
2012-07-31 02:11:06 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-07-31 02:13:05 PM  
I'm penciling in a military dictator who will first be a close, trusted ally of, and then the worst threat truly in history, truly, to the United States, for, say, 2078.
 
2012-07-31 02:15:21 PM  
I don't give a fark about Nicaragua.
 
2012-07-31 02:16:15 PM  
The Panama Canal is being expanded for bigger ships. Not sure why there'd be need for a new canal, since both the new and old sets of locks will work in Panama at the same time.
 
2012-07-31 02:18:49 PM  
Aug ara cinlan a canal panama
Aug ara cin lan a canal panama
Au gara cinlan a canal panama
A ugara cin lan a canal panama

Doesn't work.
 
2012-07-31 02:21:33 PM  
David Lee Roth does not approve and lets everyone know it.
 
2012-07-31 02:22:27 PM  
Costa Rica?

Nothing says "Big Party Fun Canal" like some active volcanos!
 
2012-07-31 02:23:09 PM  
"The Path Between the Seas" is a great read if you are interested in history, malaria, or canal creation.
 
2012-07-31 02:24:07 PM  
I'd Pay money to travel this Nicaraguan Canal!

www.bigtravelweb.com
 
2012-07-31 02:24:16 PM  
My great-grandfather walked across the Isthmus of Panama to catch a ship up to California.

/csb
//don't swim in Lake Nicaragua
 
2012-07-31 02:29:09 PM  
The Isthmus of Tehuantepec makes more sense from geological and political viewpoints.
 
2012-07-31 02:29:27 PM  

ZAZ: In the 1980s we should have settled the Contra vs. Sandinista question by resurrecting Project Plowshare and building a sea level canal through Nicaragua.


You mean instead of letting Reagan fund Iranian terrorists, right-wing Contra death squads and central-American rape gangs going from village to village conscripting child soldiers at gunpoint? Why do you hate America?
 
2012-07-31 02:30:55 PM  
When I was a kid, we were going to create a canal across Nicaragua in an afternoon. With the help of Mr. Peaceful Nukes.
 
2012-07-31 02:31:54 PM  
Oh, and...

In before some halfwit rants about Carter "giving away" a canal that U.S. and international laws said had to go back to Panama when the lease expired whether Americans liked it or not.
 
2012-07-31 02:32:08 PM  
It looks like it would be fairly easy to build a canal to Lake Nicaragua on the western side, but widening, dredging and locking San Juan River on the eastern side would be a PITA. Not to mention that part of the river flows through protected wildlife preserves.
 
2012-07-31 02:33:05 PM  
Breakfast woodsmoke on the breeze -- On the cliff the U.S. Embassy Frowns out over Managua like Dracula's tower.
The kid who guards Fonseca's tomb Cradles a beat-up submachine gun -- At age fifteen he's a veteran of four years of war
Proud to pay his dues He knows who turns the screws Baby face and old man's eyes

Blue lagoon and flowering trees -- Bullet-packed masaya streets Full of the ghosts of the heroes of Monimbo
Women of the town laundry Work and gossip and laugh at me -- They don't believe I'll ever send them the pictures I took.
For every scar on a wall There's a hole in someone's heart Where a loved one's memory lives

In the flash of this moment You're the best of what we are -- Don't let them stop you now Nicaragua

Sandino in his tom mix hat Gazes from billboards and coins "Sandino vive en la lucha por la paz" Sandino of the shining dream Who stood up to the U.S. marines -- Now Washington panics at U2 shots of "Cuban-style" latrines

In the flash of this moment You're the best of what we are -- Don't let them stop you now Nicaragua
 
2012-07-31 02:34:35 PM  

Dinjiin: widening, dredging and locking San Juan River on the eastern side would be a PITA.


That's what Chinese labour is for. Have we learned NOTHING from our history?
 
2012-07-31 02:36:22 PM  

Highroller48: That's what Chinese labour is for. Have we learned NOTHING from our history?


Hah. I could actually see the Chinese funding this if the Dutch investors can't come up with the money on the world markey. New overlords, getting kicks, etc...
 
2012-07-31 02:37:45 PM  
Can't wait for the flood of newscasters trying to sound smart with their pronunciations of Nicaragua.
 
2012-07-31 02:38:32 PM  
The US should build a new canal. I know this article is old but only $3B for a new international port in the middle of California? Why not? Sorry to threadjack if this is considered that. Interesting article about a canal from the Gulf of California to the Salton Sea: Link
 
2012-07-31 02:41:02 PM  
Supposedly Nicaragua was almost as attractive as Panama in terms of building a canal, it was that damn volcano erupting that scared everyone off the idea.

JohnAnnArbor: The Panama Canal is being expanded for bigger ships. Not sure why there'd be need for a new canal, since both the new and old sets of locks will work in Panama at the same time.


You can still only fit so many ships through the channel itself (some of which are blasted through mountains). The idea is there is enough business to keep two channels filled, not that the locks are a choke point.
 
2012-07-31 02:42:26 PM  
A canal?

I was hoping for a pyramid.
 
2012-07-31 02:44:11 PM  

Highroller48: Oh, and...

In before some halfwit rants about Carter "giving away" a canal that U.S. and international laws said had to go back to Panama when the lease expired whether Americans liked it or not.



Yeah.

That's the same reason we invaded Iraq, right?
 
2012-07-31 02:44:13 PM  

Harry Freakstorm: Don't let them stop you now Nicaragua


Very underrated album. Thanks, gonna play it now.
 
2012-07-31 02:45:07 PM  

Highroller48: Oh, and...

In before some halfwit rants about Carter "giving away" a canal that U.S. and international laws said had to go back to Panama when the lease expired whether Americans liked it or not.


Not an issue: "Under this treaty, the U.S. retained the permanent right to defend the canal from any threat that might interfere with its continued neutral service to ships of all nations."
 
2012-07-31 02:47:25 PM  

Dinjiin: Highroller48: That's what Chinese labour is for. Have we learned NOTHING from our history?

Hah. I could actually see the Chinese funding this if the Dutch investors can't come up with the money on the world markey. New overlords, getting kicks, etc...


Thinking the same thing. If the new oil discoveries off of Brazil actually work, they would probably prefer a more direct and safe way to get oil to them than around the tip of SA.
 
2012-07-31 02:48:22 PM  
IIRC, Nicaragua was the preferred route for a canal before the Panama canal was built. I don't remember why the Panamanian route eventually won out, but I think it was political considerations, rather than engineering ones.
 
2012-07-31 02:52:05 PM  

Spam Pajamas: The US should build a new canal. I know this article is old but only $3B for a new international port in the middle of California? Why not? Sorry to threadjack if this is considered that. Interesting article about a canal from the Gulf of California to the Salton Sea: Link


The big problems with an American canal are the environmental damages and the security concerns. A canal means lots of barely inspected ships passing through with god knows what on board and leaking who knows what. Our harbors get farked hard enough as it is, letting them into the Salton sea and inland waterways seems worse. Heck the lake freighters do some serious damage up here in Great Lakes territory (fark you zebra mussels, and fark you Asian carp once you get through those fish barriers).

Beside in the long run, electric freight trains are cheaper as a land bridge option. Unless the cargo is really time sensitive and a couple days worth of shipping containers being loaded and unloaded is a major barrier.
 
2012-07-31 03:08:45 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Not an issue: "Under this treaty, the U.S. retained the permanent right to defend the canal from any threat that might interfere with its continued neutral service to ships of all nations."


Yup, shouldn't ever have even mattered. Sadly, the rage at Carter has still been that control was turned over to Panama. People just can't grasp that there was no choice and that there's nothing preventing the U.S. from exercizing the defense clauses even to this day. In general, Carter sucked, but many Americans' understanding of Internation Law and how Treaties work within the U.S. legal framework sucks even more.
 
2012-07-31 03:11:02 PM  

Cybernetic: IIRC, Nicaragua was the preferred route for a canal before the Panama canal was built. I don't remember why the Panamanian route eventually won out, but I think it was political considerations, rather than engineering ones.


The political consideration was that Panama was a department of, and belonged to Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_Panama_from_Colombia), and the U.S. "aided" the "Panamian separatists" in the name of "freedom". The French had already done a fair bit of digging/dying in explosions/dying of horrible jungle diseases.

Seemed like a win-win to everyone but the Columbians, I suppose.
 
2012-07-31 03:19:25 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: The Panama Canal is being expanded for bigger ships. Not sure why there'd be need for a new canal, since both the new and old sets of locks will work in Panama at the same time.


There are already ships under construction that exceed the expanded canal's capacity.
 
2012-07-31 03:21:57 PM  

Zyme: JohnAnnArbor: The Panama Canal is being expanded for bigger ships. Not sure why there'd be need for a new canal, since both the new and old sets of locks will work in Panama at the same time.

There are already ships under construction that exceed the expanded canal's capacity.


That just gives the canal builders something to do once the current expansion is completed.
 
2012-07-31 03:23:03 PM  
Ocean-going cargo carriers are designed around the size of the locks it's planned to go thru. The smallest in width being Pananama. Suez, the other major locks in the shipping world is almost twice as wide. If the Pananama canal was widened to Suez size, the ships for ocean-going international cargo could be be made twice as wide and, as such, much longer too. More cargo per boat and it reduces the load-on/load-off, where the mistakes are made and the cost of shipping skyrockets, to once. Nicoraurgua just wants to steal the action with a shipping-friendly canal and locks that will, also, reduce the travel times on a shorter route from USA east/west coast

/GED in shipping
//minor in geography
 
2012-07-31 03:25:29 PM  

Mikeyworld: Ocean-going cargo carriers are designed around the size of the locks it's planned to go thru. The smallest in width being Pananama. Suez, the other major locks in the shipping world is almost twice as wide. If the Pananama canal was widened to Suez size, the ships for ocean-going international cargo could be be made twice as wide and, as such, much longer too. More cargo per boat and it reduces the load-on/load-off, where the mistakes are made and the cost of shipping skyrockets, to once. Nicoraurgua just wants to steal the action with a shipping-friendly canal and locks that will, also, reduce the travel times on a shorter route from USA east/west coast

/GED in shipping
//minor in geography


I didn't think Suez had locks.
 
2012-07-31 03:27:33 PM  

Mikeyworld: Ocean-going cargo carriers are designed around the size of the locks it's planned to go thru.


This. Most cruise ships and many U.S. warships were designed to just barely fit, too. I believe 105 feet or something like that is the limit. When I went through on a smaller Frigate, it was amazing to see how many ships had just inches to spare inthe locks. Clearly purpose-built.
 
2012-07-31 03:28:52 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: I didn't think Suez had locks.


No locks. There is a Suezmax concept though in the form of beam, draft, and air draft.
 
2012-07-31 03:35:38 PM  

ha-ha-guy: JohnAnnArbor: I didn't think Suez had locks.

No locks. There is a Suezmax concept though in the form of beam, draft, and air draft.


"Air draft"?
 
2012-07-31 03:36:16 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Mikeyworld:

/GED in shipping
//minor in geography

I didn't think Suez had locks.


I stand corrected. I was sure the Suez had a pair. Anyway, the point still stands. Pananama is the choke point for building Mega-ships.

/see, I tol' ya it was an GED
 
2012-07-31 03:39:42 PM  

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 158x139]


You are my hero.

csb: I had to write a report on the Panama Canal when I was in middle school. As fate would have it, my family had one of the Cromwell letters that included that stamp, so I included it in the report. The letters were send to the members of congress to convince them that the Nicaraguan routeing was dangerous because of the volcano. That was part of the lobbying efforts by the chief of the French canal syndicate, Philippe Bunau Varilla. The syndicate owned large parcels of land in Panama.

It's embarassing enough that Grandfather was the person who introduced Bunau Varilla to President McKinley, but what's far worse is that Karl Rove considers him to be his role model.
 
2012-07-31 03:40:26 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Mikeyworld: Ocean-going cargo carriers are designed around the size of the locks it's planned to go thru. The smallest in width being Pananama. Suez, the other major locks in the shipping world is almost twice as wide. If the Pananama canal was widened to Suez size, the ships for ocean-going international cargo could be be made twice as wide and, as such, much longer too. More cargo per boat and it reduces the load-on/load-off, where the mistakes are made and the cost of shipping skyrockets, to once. Nicoraurgua just wants to steal the action with a shipping-friendly canal and locks that will, also, reduce the travel times on a shorter route from USA east/west coast

/GED in shipping
//minor in geography

I didn't think Suez had locks.


It doesn't. The issue with the Suez is depth. The only issues with width are if the ships are too wide to let others pass, in which case there are turn offs so large ships can wait while others go by.
 
2012-07-31 03:43:36 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: ha-ha-guy: JohnAnnArbor: I didn't think Suez had locks.

No locks. There is a Suezmax concept though in the form of beam, draft, and air draft.

"Air draft"?


Bridges
 
2012-07-31 03:52:23 PM  

Valiente: Cybernetic: IIRC, Nicaragua was the preferred route for a canal before the Panama canal was built. I don't remember why the Panamanian route eventually won out, but I think it was political considerations, rather than engineering ones.

The political consideration was that Panama was a department of, and belonged to Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_Panama_from_Colombia), and the U.S. "aided" the "Panamian separatists" in the name of "freedom". The French had already done a fair bit of digging/dying in explosions/dying of horrible jungle diseases.

Seemed like a win-win to everyone but the Columbians, I suppose.


They built it in Panama because a volcano erupted in Nicaragua. Lousy timing because the prevailing opinion of the engineers was that Nicaragua would be a far superior location.
 
2012-07-31 03:57:09 PM  

Iksar: A ugara cin lan a canal panama

Doesn't work.


Well, no but obviously this does:

A Ugaracin, Lana C., a canal, Nicaragua!

I don't know what a Ugaracin is (probably some Star Wars creature) or the full name of Lana C., but they clearly worked to create some Nicaraguan canal.
 
2012-07-31 03:58:14 PM  

leevis: Valiente: Cybernetic: IIRC, Nicaragua was the preferred route for a canal before the Panama canal was built. I don't remember why the Panamanian route eventually won out, but I think it was political considerations, rather than engineering ones.

The political consideration was that Panama was a department of, and belonged to Columbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_Panama_from_Colombia), and the U.S. "aided" the "Panamian separatists" in the name of "freedom". The French had already done a fair bit of digging/dying in explosions/dying of horrible jungle diseases.

Seemed like a win-win to everyone but the Columbians, I suppose.

They built it in Panama because a volcano erupted in Nicaragua. Lousy timing because the prevailing opinion of the engineers was that Nicaragua would be a far superior location.


Column A and Column B. There were parties in Congress who pushed for different options. The reason Nicaragua appealed to one side is that it appeared easier and the government would sell the land. Panama was preferred by others because the land distance was thinner and they saw a political opportunity to basically get the land for free, but they would have to underhandedly start a revolution in Colombia to do it. The volcano just sealed the deal.
 
2012-07-31 04:40:39 PM  
Here is the thing- yes, technology is much better now, but it's still a really big project, and the payoff would only probably be half as big as the first one (I'm assuming they'd capture half the traffic), but it would be even worse, because once there is competition there would be a price war for passage. I don't think it would be profitable.

I always thought our meddling in Great Colombia was particularly tragic. One of the things that almost defines a first world country is a diverse economy. It protects the country from market shocks. Great Colombia would have had coffee (or cocaine), the Panama Canal (assuming they built it themselves somehow), and later, oil. It would have likely been a much more viable nation than any of it's parts have been alone.
 
2012-07-31 04:56:17 PM  

Gough: Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 158x139]

You are my hero.


I'm just glad someone else remembers their history.
 
2012-07-31 05:03:19 PM  

HoratioGates: Here is the thing- yes, technology is much better now, but it's still a really big project, and the payoff would only probably be half as big as the first one (I'm assuming they'd capture half the traffic), but it would be even worse, because once there is competition there would be a price war for passage. I don't think it would be profitable.

I always thought our meddling in Great Colombia was particularly tragic. One of the things that almost defines a first world country is a diverse economy. It protects the country from market shocks. Great Colombia would have had coffee (or cocaine), the Panama Canal (assuming they built it themselves somehow), and later, oil. It would have likely been a much more viable nation than any of it's parts have been alone.


We didn't do anything to Gran Colombia. We did precipitate Panama's separation from Colombia, of course, but the initial breakup of Gran Colombia was much earlier and was from internal causes.
 
2012-07-31 05:16:36 PM  
"The Nicaraguan government has loosely estimated construction costs at $20 billion and would seek international investors."

I'm waiting for the Kickstarter campaign. I've got a good twenty bucks to invest in canal. Can we get a t-shirt at that pledge level?
 
2012-07-31 05:46:37 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
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