FARK.com: (7241834) Apple's head of design: 'Market research guarantees your product will be mediocre, at best.' Steve Ballmer scoffs

If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

		Apple's head of design: 'Market research guarantees your product will be mediocre, at best.' Steve Ballmer scoffs (wired.co.uk)		59
		More: Interesting, Ballmer, Jonathan Ive, British Embassy, icloud, guarantees, Apple

• • •

3730 clicks; posted to Business » on 31 Jul 2012 at 11:53 AM | Favorite | share:

Share this link:

URL:

http://fark.com/go/7241834

Bookmark:

Article Comments close

59 Comments (+0 »)

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

t3knomanser		2012-07-31 10:28:47 AM

The first step in making a great product is to make a product that you would want to use.

czei		2012-07-31 10:35:35 AM

I've done market research for technology products, and he's spot on. People want what they already have except cheaper and in their favorite color.

TheGhostofFarkPast		2012-07-31 12:10:23 PM

czei: I've done market research for technology products, and he's spot on. People want what they already have except cheaper and in their favorite color.

This. I also work in the computer/wireless handset business and people like what they have and many of the less technical people have no desire to ever change because they are use to what they have.

HotWingConspiracy		2012-07-31 12:18:32 PM

They're tweaking screen sizes to respond to the market's desires though.

Why Would I Read the Article		2012-07-31 12:20:38 PM

This makes sense, because Apple products themselves are mediocre, at best.

EnochEmery		2012-07-31 12:36:11 PM

Nice transcription;
"But if you are trying to do something new, you have challenges on so many axes."

InmanRoshi		2012-07-31 12:37:21 PM

"(Market Research) will guarantee mediocrity and will only work out whether you are going to offend anyone."

So.Much.This.

Market research, by it's very nature, makes the stupidest person(s) in the room the most important person in the room. The results are almost guaranteed to be a lowest common denominator product.

Linux_Yes		2012-07-31 12:39:17 PM

if you focus on ur customers and not biatchy stock holders, the money will come in. duh. kiss stockholder ass too much and customers will go away. and then your biatchy spoiled rotten stockholders will go away.

and you'll be sitting there alone holding your flacid penis.

who can't go away.

czetie		2012-07-31 12:49:05 PM

HotWingConspiracy: They're tweaking screen sizes to respond to the market's desires though.

Yes, and that's the precisely the point.

This is how Apple works. First do something innovative that the market could never have told you they wanted because they couldn't have imagined it. Once people see it, they will give you incremental, marginal improvements -- the kind of improvement to an existing product that market research gives you. But the market could never have told Apple they also want an iPad in other sizes until they had seen an iPad in the first place.

FilmBELOH20		2012-07-31 01:19:13 PM

They should have done market research before they let their dev team make ~~iMovie Pro~~ Final Cut X. I was the world's biggest fanboy until that piece of crap came out. I can chop with CS6 on any platform, so I'm no longer glued to Macs as editing machines. I know many other video producers who feel this way.

Uncle Tractor		2012-07-31 01:20:43 PM

InmanRoshi: "(Market Research) will guarantee mediocrity and will only work out whether you are going to offend anyone."

So.Much.This.

Market research, by it's very nature, makes the stupidest person(s) in the room the most important person in the room. The results are almost guaranteed to be a lowest common denominator product.

...and that's why both airplane food and politicians are so very bland.

farkeruk		2012-07-31 01:39:03 PM

Never ask people what they want. Work out what they need and give it to them.

No-one will thank you for giving them a product EVEN IF THEY ASKED FOR IT that doesn't do what they need. I've delivered software precisely to a specification and had users complaining.

roc6783		2012-07-31 01:49:50 PM

From here:

Production Orientation

The focus for the business is to reduce costs through mass production. A business orientated around production believes that the "economies of scale" generated by mass production will reduce costs and maximise profits. A production orientated business needs to avoid production efficiency processes which affect product design and quality. Compromising product design and quality for the sake of production is likely to reduce the product's appeal to customers.

Product Orientation

A product orientated company believes that its product's high quality and functional features make it a superior product. Such a company believes that if they have a superior product customers will automatically like it as well. The problem with this approach is that superiority alone does not sell products; superior products will not sell unless they satisfy consumer wants and needs.

Sales Orientation

A sales orientated company's focus is simple; make the product, and then sell it to the target market. This type of orientation involves the organisation making what they think the customer needs or likes without relevant research. However as we know sales usually aren't this simple. An effective marketing strategy requires market and marketing research, prior to product development and finally an effective promotion strategy.

Market Orientation

A market orientated company puts the customer at the "heart" of the business; all activities in the organisation are based around the customer. The customer is truly king!. A market orientated organisation endeavours to understand customer needs and wants, then implements marketing strategy based on their market research; from product development through to product sales. Once sales have begun further research will be conducted to find out what consumers think about the product and whether product improvements are required. As markets continuously change, market research and product development is an ongoing process for a market orientation company.

Conclusion

In today's competitive world, it is more important than ever to implement a market orientated strategy. In this digital age customers are able to research the products available on the market fairly quickly. If an organisation does not offer customers what they are looking for (product and customer service) they will buy from a competitor that does.

Apple claims to have a product orientation, i.e. "We make the best product, people buy it because it is the best," when in reality, they have a market orientation. They are successful because they have packaged features that enough people want, in a wrapping that enough people want, to make a brazillion dollars. Go into any Apple thread and you can find a slew of comments about other devices that do the same things that iWhatever does and better.

Their brand is a HUGE part of their popularity. They have found a way to market "being smug about your stuff" and it's worked. That is not to say that their products are bad or anything negative about the company, just that the statements in the article don't jive with reality.

FTFA: "He said it is a designer's responsibility to understand potential opportunities and be familiar and fluent with technologies that could enable the creation of products that fit with those opportunities."

Sorry to burst your bubble design dude, but that IS market research. It may not be going to a mall and asking people to fill out questionnaires, but it is learning about existing technologies and products and trying to gain a better understanding of what is going on in the world, aka RESEARCH about your MARKET.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller		2012-07-31 01:59:01 PM

Apple's goal is not to make money, but to make good products, said Jonathan Ive

The offensive part is he thinks anyone is stupid enough to believe this.

You make good products in order to make money.

JoeyJoJo		2012-07-31 02:06:24 PM

My wife's Macbook needed a new optical drive, heat sink & airport extreme card when it was just over 3 years old. My iPhone which is just over two years old needs a new battery as it dies whenever GPS is used, and my 2nd gen iPod Touch needs a new headphone jack.

I don't think they've gotten the "good products" part right, just the making money part.

/waiting to upgrade my iPhone, but if the iPhone 5 has a new dock connector, I will have purchased my last Apple product.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller		2012-07-31 02:07:31 PM

roc6783: Their brand is a HUGE part of their popularity. They have found a way to market "being smug about your stuff" and it's worked. That is not to say that their products are bad or anything negative about the company, just that the statements in the article don't jive with reality.

Yep. Jobs and co. were (are?) amazing marketers first and foremost. They knew (know?) how to drive consumer passion. The products, once objectively evaluated, are solid, but hardly "special".

In other words:
farm2.static.flickr.com

/obligatory

HotWingConspiracy		2012-07-31 02:08:07 PM

czetie: HotWingConspiracy: They're tweaking screen sizes to respond to the market's desires though.

Yes, and that's the precisely the point.

This is how Apple works.

Is it? I seem to recall that when jobs was alive their line was that the size was perfect (they designed it, after all) and wouldn't ever change.

czetie		2012-07-31 02:41:54 PM

HotWingConspiracy: czetie: HotWingConspiracy: They're tweaking screen sizes to respond to the market's desires though.

Yes, and that's the precisely the point.

This is how Apple works.

Is it? I seem to recall that when jobs was alive their line was that the size was perfect (they designed it, after all) and wouldn't ever change.

Is Jobs still dead?

HotWingConspiracy		2012-07-31 02:45:19 PM

czetie: HotWingConspiracy: czetie: HotWingConspiracy: They're tweaking screen sizes to respond to the market's desires though.

Yes, and that's the precisely the point.

This is how Apple works.

Is it? I seem to recall that when jobs was alive their line was that the size was perfect (they designed it, after all) and wouldn't ever change.

Is Jobs still dead?

Was it perfect, or not?

divx88		2012-07-31 03:08:07 PM

"We are really pleased with our revenues but our goal isn't to make money. It sounds a little flippant, but it's the truth. Our goal and what makes us excited is to make great products. If we are successful people will like them and if we are operationally competent, we will make money,"

... so if it's not about the money, why do they outsource like they do, have horrendous prices and hold an overall tyrannical approach to their products?

spammuncher		2012-07-31 03:18:57 PM

FilmBELOH20: They should have done market research before they let their dev team make iMovie Pro Final Cut X. I was the world's biggest fanboy until that piece of crap came out. I can chop with CS6 on any platform, so I'm no longer glued to Macs as editing machines. I know many other video producers who feel this way.

You want to edit, use an Avid system. With the competition that FCP created, Avid was eventually pushed to sell their product at a better price point. FCP was also getting long in the tooth, and needed a major rewrite. Apple's decision to create a new product that enabled a larger market to edit will probably prove to be a success in the upcoming years. Avid also works natively with R3D files, so no transcoding necessary.

I'd say that a Mac is probably still the way to go for editing. With the addition of Thunderbolt ports, you can basically do everything on a laptop; dual monitors, RAID, and connections for an external i/o card. A basic system with a Retina macBook Pro, dual Thunderbolt displays, and a Pegasus 6TB Raid will be a little over $6,200. That's pretty awesome.

macdaddy357		2012-07-31 03:39:40 PM

Making money is the reward for making good products and offering good services. If your only goal is to make money, you will cut every corner, and people will eventually understand that they are being ripped off. It happened to Packard Bell. If you don't understand computers, it happened to the Big 3 automakers.

Mr Guy		2012-07-31 03:53:22 PM

czetie: This is how Apple works. First do something innovative that the market

Aaaaand that's as far as you need to read. This is NOT how Apple works. Apple takes products that have failed, dumbs them to the least common denominator, and makes them pretty. They do not innovate. They rescue other people's ideas that were ahead of their time, and rescue them. Then rebrand them, and patent them.

secularsage		2012-07-31 04:46:05 PM

Well, I'm the Research Director for a marketing research firm... and Apple Computer (from the 1980s) was once one of our clients. I'm not sure exactly when (probably post-Jobs), but we did do some work for them. These days, we primarily focus on service industries, where market research is extremely important.

And actually, I agree with Ives somewhat in terms of how market research is often applied to products. You should not create a product to make people happy in focus groups. You'll never win, because people don't know what they want, and they can't articulate it in a way that's useful.

But market research can be used to effectively identify what's working and what's not. Wouldn't it be nice if Apple did some market research to address how they could fix iTunes? Or how they could address common frustrations with the iOS platform? Or how they could brand their iPad without just calling every new generation "The New iPad"?

Apple's great at marketing and design, but they suck at listening. That's working for them now, but only until the competition catches up. Then, they'll wish they had listened to what consumers were shouting the whole time.

Waldo Pepper		2012-07-31 07:18:36 PM

TheGhostofFarkPast		2012-07-31 07:18:52 PM

JoeyJoJo: My wife's Macbook needed a new optical drive, heat sink & airport extreme card when it was just over 3 years old. My iPhone which is just over two years old needs a new battery as it dies whenever GPS is used, and my 2nd gen iPod Touch needs a new headphone jack.

I don't think they've gotten the "good products" part right, just the making money part.

/waiting to upgrade my iPhone, but if the iPhone 5 has a new dock connector, I will have purchased my last Apple product.

really? I have enough Apple products (06 Mac Pro, 09 Imac, Ipad 1,2,3, iphone 1-4S, 12 MacAir, etc etc) to kill an adult if dropped on them and none of them have had to be replaced or changed out in fact they have been absolutely perfect. Usually when people list this many things wrong on so many different items it usually means it's not the maker of the product but the user. Whenever I hear someone say "ive been through 10 iphones and they keep going out on me, Apple makes such a bad product," I usually laugh because I know it's them because a manufacturer is not that bad. If you look at studies of products and their failure rates someone as big as Apple is not going to be that horrendous. Yes they have had issues before in the past I am not denying that what I am saying is that amount of failure across so many different lines doesn't happen to one user.

TheGhostofFarkPast		2012-07-31 07:34:57 PM

secularsage: Well, I'm the Research Director for a marketing research firm... and Apple Computer (from the 1980s) was once one of our clients. I'm not sure exactly when (probably post-Jobs), but we did do some work for them. These days, we primarily focus on service industries, where market research is extremely important.

And actually, I agree with Ives somewhat in terms of how market research is often applied to products. You should not create a product to make people happy in focus groups. You'll never win, because people don't know what they want, and they can't articulate it in a way that's useful.

But market research can be used to effectively identify what's working and what's not. Wouldn't it be nice if Apple did some market research to address how they could fix iTunes? Or how they could address common frustrations with the iOS platform? Or how they could brand their iPad without just calling every new generation "The New iPad"?

Apple's great at marketing and design, but they suck at listening. That's working for them now, but only until the competition catches up. Then, they'll wish they had listened to what consumers were shouting the whole time.

When is the competition going to catch up? Apple is on it's third iPad and 5th iPhone, when exactly are the competitors going to step it up? As it was in the last report a few days ago Android lost market share and iOS actually gained more. Android is great, I personally carry a Galaxy Nexus, own all the nexus phones/tablets and my wife carries an android, but when the iPhone 5 comes out I think you will see a lot of jumpers back to iOS. A lot of people went over to Android to try it out because they got bored with the incremental updates, an iPhone 5 on Verizon is going to be a big play on Apples part because it will have LTE and it will be the first phone for apple on their network that will allow talking and surfing the web/tethering. I manage wireless assets for a large company and we are already gearing up replacing all of our iPhone 4 and 4s's because of the added benefit. I am all for competition but it actually has to make an effort first.

mark_bert		2012-07-31 09:42:39 PM

EnochEmery: Nice transcription;
"But if you are trying to do something new, you have challenges on so many axes."

Since the plural of axis is axes, yes, it's a perfect transcription.

Great_Milenko		2012-07-31 10:56:03 PM

Truncks1		2012-07-31 11:00:01 PM

Android is going to beat Apple. There is a reason Steve Jobs was so afraid, and there is a reason Apple is attacking Android through the courts instead of through innovation. I've had an iPad, and now I have an android tablet... its only a matter of time until people realize which one is better. Apple is what you get your grandma, Android is what you get yourself.

JoeyJoJo		2012-07-31 11:30:41 PM

Waldo Pepper:
my 2nd gen iPod still runs off the original battery, I get about 2 hours worth of music before it dies. I think Apple has been short cutting the quality over the past few years

Surprisingly, the battery on it still runs like a champ, it's just the headphone dock that's killing me. When the screen shuts off and the music is paused. To start playing, you have to turn the screen on, unplug then replug the headphone jack. farking PITA

TheGhostofFarkPast:
...Usually when people list this many things wrong on so many different items it usually means it's not the maker of the product but the user. Whenever I hear someone say "ive been through 10 iphones and they keep going out on me, Apple makes such a bad product," I usually laugh because I know it's them because a manufacturer is not that bad.

This thread made me make an appointment at the "Genius" bar today.
1. He said there's absolutely nothing physically wrong with the headphone jack on my iPod Touch, but he had the exact same problem I'm having after running a diagnostic. He couldn't explain why but could offer me a replacement for ±$50 IIRC.
2. After running a diagnostic on the phone, he said there was a definitely a battery fault and I could replace the phone for $80.

So please remind me how this is my fault again and not Apple putting out cheap Chinese products?

/farking fanbois...

digistil		2012-08-01 03:23:35 AM

farkeruk: I've delivered software precisely to a specification and had users complaining.

That's ridiculous, but entirely believable.

digistil		2012-08-01 03:28:03 AM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Apple's goal is not to make money, but to make good products, said Jonathan Ive

The offensive part is he thinks anyone is stupid enough to believe this.

You make good products in order to make money.

FWIW Sac, Money doesn't drive 99% of people after they have enough of it. This is especially true for creative types.

digistil		2012-08-01 03:34:19 AM

Truncks1: Apple is what you get ~~your grandma~~ when it's not a hobby, Android is what you get ~~yourself~~ when it is.

fixed for reality

starsrift		2012-08-01 05:30:51 AM

It's interesting how the thread is focused on Apple's hardwares.

Jobs viewed Apple as a software company first, who only made hardware when the whatever device they envisioned for the apps they wanted to make didn't exist.

RickyWilliams'sBong		2012-08-01 06:20:44 AM

What was it Henry Ford said? "If I'd given customers what they wanted, I'd have delivered a faster horse"?

Whether you're an Apple/Jobs fan or not, Ive is an excellent designer, and he's completely right here.

Choadzilla		2012-08-01 06:33:35 AM

Can I get the icon in corn flower blue?

zez		2012-08-01 08:14:28 AM

Can't wait for apple's latest product to look like a razor or coffee maker

Icetech3		2012-08-01 09:21:20 AM

What a lying scumbag.. they overcharge for everything they make.. the OS is horrible.. and my iphone couldn't make a call over 2 minutes without hanging up.. and was VERY slow for even texting.. yeah great products my ass.. And if they arn't out to make money how do they end up with $1b in cash laying around?

Icetech3		2012-08-01 09:25:41 AM

Icetech3: What a lying scumbag.. they overcharge for everything they make.. the OS is horrible.. and my iphone couldn't make a call over 2 minutes without hanging up.. and was VERY slow for even texting.. yeah great products my ass.. And if they arn't out to make money how do they end up with $1b in cash laying around?

EDIT: (since we can't seem to edit unlike every other spot on the web..) My above comments are of course meant to be parody or whatever can't get me sued by supposedly one of the most sue happy companies on earth...

Icetech3		2012-08-01 09:30:30 AM

Icetech3: Icetech3: What a lying scumbag.. they overcharge for everything they make.. the OS is horrible.. and my iphone couldn't make a call over 2 minutes without hanging up.. and was VERY slow for even texting.. yeah great products my ass.. And if they arn't out to make money how do they end up with $1b in cash laying around?

EDIT: (since we can't seem to edit unlike every other spot on the web..) My above comments are of course meant to be parody or whatever can't get me sued by supposedly one of the most sue happy companies on earth...

EDIT2: Oops... i believe its $100b laying around..

P.S. is there really no edit or am i just unable to find it? and man its too early to troll it seems:(

Flint Ironstag		2012-08-01 10:44:03 AM

Mr Guy: czetie: This is how Apple works. First do something innovative that the market

Aaaaand that's as far as you need to read. This is NOT how Apple works. Apple takes products that have failed, dumbs them to the least common denominator, and makes them pretty. They do not innovate. They rescue other people's ideas that were ahead of their time, and rescue them. Then rebrand them, and patent them.

Exactly. I'm a pretty regular critic of Apple and their products and business methods but there is no doubt they are great at marketing.
I rate Jobs alongside Henry Ford. Ford didn't invent the car, but he took a niche, luxury, specialist product and made the general public want one. What was a toy for millionaire playboys became an essential product that everyone wanted.

/Of course Ford didn't claim he invented the car and try to sue anyone else who put a wheel at each corner and a steering wheel in front of the driver...

metztli		2012-08-01 11:21:41 AM

Flint Ironstag: Mr Guy: czetie: This is how Apple works. First do something innovative that the market

Aaaaand that's as far as you need to read. This is NOT how Apple works. Apple takes products that have failed, dumbs them to the least common denominator, and makes them pretty. They do not innovate. They rescue other people's ideas that were ahead of their time, and rescue them. Then rebrand them, and patent them.

Exactly. I'm a pretty regular critic of Apple and their products and business methods but there is no doubt they are great at marketing.
I rate Jobs alongside Henry Ford. Ford didn't invent the car, but he took a niche, luxury, specialist product and made the general public want one. What was a toy for millionaire playboys became an essential product that everyone wanted.

/Of course Ford didn't claim he invented the car and try to sue anyone else who put a wheel at each corner and a steering wheel in front of the driver...

Nope - Ford was just a supporter of the American Nazi movement, happily did business with the Nazis, and was a vocal anti-semite, which surely pales in comparison to suing other companies over stupid shiat.

I don't have any fondness for Jobs, but he wasn't literally a Nazi sympathizer and enabler.

meanmutton		2012-08-01 11:45:07 AM

divx88: "We are really pleased with our revenues but our goal isn't to make money. It sounds a little flippant, but it's the truth. Our goal and what makes us excited is to make great products. If we are successful people will like them and if we are operationally competent, we will make money,"

Then why do you have a 50% profit margin on the iPad?

Flint Ironstag		2012-08-01 11:56:56 AM

metztli: Flint Ironstag: Mr Guy: czetie: This is how Apple works. First do something innovative that the market

Aaaaand that's as far as you need to read. This is NOT how Apple works. Apple takes products that have failed, dumbs them to the least common denominator, and makes them pretty. They do not innovate. They rescue other people's ideas that were ahead of their time, and rescue them. Then rebrand them, and patent them.

Exactly. I'm a pretty regular critic of Apple and their products and business methods but there is no doubt they are great at marketing.
I rate Jobs alongside Henry Ford. Ford didn't invent the car, but he took a niche, luxury, specialist product and made the general public want one. What was a toy for millionaire playboys became an essential product that everyone wanted.

/Of course Ford didn't claim he invented the car and try to sue anyone else who put a wheel at each corner and a steering wheel in front of the driver...

Nope - Ford was just a supporter of the American Nazi movement, happily did business with the Nazis, and was a vocal anti-semite, which surely pales in comparison to suing other companies over stupid shiat.

I don't have any fondness for Jobs, but he wasn't literally a Nazi sympathizer and enabler.

Before the war lots of people fell for the Nazi propaganda, easy to criticise them in hindsight. And during the war, with Germany very definitely the enemy, many US companies continued "trading" with their German subsidiaries. GM owned Opel who built German army vehicles, IBM built the machines that kept the records in the concentration camps, Coca Cola owned factories in Germany developed Fanta because they couldn't get the ingredients for Coke, ITT owned Fockke Wulf and German radio companies and so on. All through the war profits from these German owned subsidiaries, made from building stuff for the Nazi's, was paid through Switzerland back to the US parent companies.

Jobs ended all Apple charitable donations when he became CEO and chose the communist Chinese to build his stuff. He was no saint either. Like Ford he put his business first.

Satanic_Hamster		2012-08-01 11:57:52 AM

Flint Ironstag: Exactly. I'm a pretty regular critic of Apple and their products and business methods but there is no doubt they are great at marketing.
I rate Jobs alongside Henry Ford. Ford didn't invent the car, but he took a niche, luxury, specialist product and made the general public want one. What was a toy for millionaire playboys became an essential product that everyone wanted.

Henry Ford was a Nazi and sent private investigators to check if his employees smoked at home.

metztli		2012-08-01 12:09:18 PM

Flint, you got me, I give you an 8/10. The -2 points were due to the "communist Chinese" which pushed you over the top.

Satanic_Hamster		2012-08-01 12:21:21 PM

metztli: I don't have any fondness for Jobs, but he wasn't literally a Nazi sympathizer and enabler.

He was evil, though.

Flint Ironstag		2012-08-01 12:55:32 PM

metztli: Flint, you got me, I give you an 8/10. The -2 points were due to the "communist Chinese" which pushed you over the top.

Just pointing out that the way we view the Chinese today is much the same was many Americans, and many British, viewed the Nazi's in the 1930s. Even after Hitler started invading countries there were still man people saying we shouldn't intervene or even worry. Hell even after war started in Europe there were still many in the US that sided with Hitler. It wasn't until Hitler declared war on the US (and Pearl Harbor happened) that that attitude went away. To single out Ford in hindsight for supporting the Nazi's is a bit unfair. And if his attitude on Jews is enough to damn him forever in the eyes of history then why not apply the same to everyone who supported slavery? Many of the most highly revered Americans held slaves and saw no problem with it, so why not damn them?

Not suggesting that proves the Chinese will go the way the Nazi's did, but that the Nazi's were fantastic at propaganda and portrayed themselves as peace-loving tough but fair people. And many, many, people fell for it, including the owner of the Daily Mail, which is still owned by the same family today.

My original comparison was on the business success on taking a niche, luxury, product and making it a mass market essential product. Either man's politics doesn't change that. If you lose a game of chess to a convicted serial killer then you lost the game. Him being a serial killer doesn't change that.

gingerjet		2012-08-01 01:20:46 PM

Satanic_Hamster: metztli: I don't have any fondness for Jobs, but he wasn't literally a Nazi sympathizer and enabler.

He was evil, though.

You have a pretty fark'd up definition of evil.

Displayed 50 of 59 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Redisplay/refresh comments

This thread is closed to new comments.