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(Wired)   US Air Force: The stealthy, fifth-generation, $400 million F-22 Raptor is the undisputed king of the skies. German Luftwaffe: Ja, about that   (wired.com) divider line 207
    More: Interesting, Toronto Raptors, air forces, mock combat, U.S. Air Force  
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22834 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Jul 2012 at 10:42 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-31 01:26:12 PM

madgonad: Modern fighters are limited by the ability of humans to stay conscious and that is a hard limit on ALL close-up fighting by aircraft. So in short, almost any aircraft that has hit that limit - and it was hit by the previous generation - will perform about the same.

The next generation of air superiority fighter will be unmanned.


This.
 
2012-07-31 01:43:23 PM

Gleeman: MadMattressMack: Plus we have a very proficient AWACS platform we didn't have in 'Nam.

Things have surely improved, but I think the E-2 Hawkeye (1961, still in use today), EC-121, PIRAZ picket ships and Teaball/EC-121K Rivet Tops comm intercepts had things covered pretty well.


I said that wrong: the platforms are still there, but what they're hauling has changed quite a bit. Plus the E3 was added in after that.
 
2012-07-31 01:45:29 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: JackieRabbit: it's attitude control computers can recover it in seconds.

Check your apostrophe control computers.


I thought this was completely anal, then I read your account name and lol'd
 
2012-07-31 01:47:53 PM
Seriously nobody has posted this? What have you become, fark?

i.imgur.com
 
2012-07-31 01:51:31 PM

spentmiles: I went one-on-one with an F-22 at the joint exercise they're talking about. The German Typhoon pilot got me in close enough to jump onto its back. Hand over hand, I crawled up the fuselage as we streaked through the air at 750 knots. When I got to the front, I used a rock to smash the cockpit window, pulled the pilot out, and took control of the plane. I then put it into a nose dive using my belt to secure the stick before bailing out. I was the hero of the day.



I highlight your posts and look forward to them daily.
 
2012-07-31 01:55:50 PM
For those of you sucking the AWACS' nose cone, you obviously have never shared the sky with one of them. They aren't this omniscient eye in the sky that sees all and knows all. Without good ISR assets all they see are dots on a screen. AWACS is not - I repeat, NOT - an intel platform. In spite of how they're portrayed in movies, that is.
 
2012-07-31 01:58:53 PM

Bschott007: "A Dassault executive who did not wish to be identified said that the Eurofighter Typhoon which is clearly not meant for a multi-mission role played at best a supporting role in the Libyan operations."


Color me shocked that a Dassault executive would have something negative to say about his company's chief competitor for a huge fighter order.

As far as the rest goes, a Tornado SHOULD do better - it is a well tested, dedicated attack aircraft. It is also far cheaper. Why would you risk your new, modern fighter to a golden BB when you've got loads of older, cheaper aircraft purpose-built for the job of moving mud? Maybe they learned from our F-117 Panama fiasco and decided getting the job done was more important than showing off the shiny new toy.

The Rafale is also older and more mature, but you'll note that the Dassault press release masquerading as a news story also fails to differentiate between weapons delivered by Mirage 2000s and Rafales. I strongly suspect the French also took care to keep their new fighters safe too and used them to deliver high altitude and stand off weapons - a capability the RAF isn't in a big hurry to add to its current Typhoon fleet because they've got the Tornado. It might also be worth asking if the Rafale's such a proficient strike aircraft, why does the De Gaulle's air wing still contain the Super Etendard?

Typhoon's already a good platform. It will mature into a fantastic multi-role aircraft capable of fighting and winning - as long as it isn't fighting Raptors. Conversely, if you see Raptors being seriously used to move mud in a real war any time before around 2050, you'd better start fine tuning your Mandarin.
 
2012-07-31 02:05:36 PM

Slaves2Darkness: ManRay: Didn't the Germans have superior planes in WWII? And how did that work out?

Worked out great, right up until they ran out of pilots, planes and resources. The Germans problem is that the US could and did build more planes, tanks, ships, and guns then they did. The Allies did not achieve victory over the Germans through superior technology, but superior numbers and just good enough technology.


And a crapload of Russian infantry.
 
2012-07-31 02:06:45 PM

PunGent: Slaves2Darkness: ManRay: Didn't the Germans have superior planes in WWII? And how did that work out?

Worked out great, right up until they ran out of pilots, planes and resources. The Germans problem is that the US could and did build more planes, tanks, ships, and guns then they did. The Allies did not achieve victory over the Germans through superior technology, but superior numbers and just good enough technology.

And a crapload of Russian infantry.


Riding in American gear, eating American food, and firing American ammo.
 
2012-07-31 02:09:39 PM
JustGetItRight
Gdalescrboz: So they put the Raptors in a specific scenario that the Typhoons could exploit the 22s weakness...and they were still only evenly matched. Had the F-22 not specifically allowed the Typhoon to visably aquire them, the Germans would have had no idea wtf was going on

Also,
"But there's evidence that, in reality, most air combat occurs at close distance, despite air arms' wishful thinking."

Tell that to the F-15s which are 100-0 air-to-air engagements, all BVR. Welcome to the 21st century

I'm on your side, but this is plain wrong. Many of those kills were BVR/AIM-9 and I think the Israelis even have a couple of gun kills.


Don't tell me I'm wrong about them being BVR shots, then proceed to tell me they were BVR AIM-9 shots. BVR is BVR. Then say you go on to tell me you THINK xxxxx. Pro tip, don't tell someone they are wrong and then say you think it's because you THINK xxxx.
 
2012-07-31 02:14:45 PM

devildog123: Dynascape: oldfarthenry: Clemkadidlefark:
Germany -0-
USA 2

Revisionist history class ignoring the `world' in 'world wars' - 10

/done

Come on fartknocker....

Anyone who's versed in history knows pretty damn positively that it was the Soviet Union that won WW2 in Europe.

It was all over in Europe after Stalingrad, and way WAY over by the time the Soviets launched Operation Bagration.

The Russians may have paid in blood, but they would have had a much harder time without USA Lend-Lease. Let's say that Hitler had been smart enough to NOT declare war on the US, and we had put all our efforts into defeating the Japanese. Roosevelt could NEVER have kept Lend-Lease up, certainly not to the Soviets. The Russians would have been without the following (numbers are approximate):

350,000 light and heavy trucks
51,000 jeeps
8,000 tractors
10,000 tanks of all types
3,000 scout cars
2,000 half tracks
2,000 Bren carriers
11,000 fighter aircraft
3,000 bombers
6,000 anti-aircraft guns
400 Anti-Tank guns
317,000 tons of explosive materiel (the USSR only produced 600,000 tons during the war)
Millions of tons of steel, food, aluminum, and fuel.

Your fancy Red Army would have been a lot worse off without that stuff, and even more so if say, the Brits, fighting alone (also without Lend-Lease) had been forced to sign an armistice in say 1942 that would have freed up more troops for the eastern front. To say the Russians won WWII is just as stupid and ignorant as saying that the US did it all on it's own.

Here's another scenario Red Army fanatics don't like. What if the Japanese had declared war on the USSR along with the Germans, and those Siberian reinforcements that saved Moscow in the winter of 1941 had been fighting a Japanese Army in the far east?


Lend Lease DEFINITELY helped.

But the Japanese learned in the 30s not to tangle with Russia...they got their asses handed to them when they tried...forget the battle off the top of my head.

The Japanies Navy was quite good, but their Army was best at beating up on Chinese armed with rusty rifles, unarmed natives, and sleepy, poorly-led Colonial troops. Without serious armor, AT guns, or heavy arty? Competitive...barely...in heavy jungle...in open terrain, they got butchered.

Hell, our Stuart light tanks put up 10 - 1 kill ratios against their tankettes...a single T34 could've held off a Japanese regiment.
 
2012-07-31 02:19:48 PM
If you can get in really close, a caveman with a club could bash an F-22 to bits.
 
2012-07-31 02:21:52 PM
I'm sure this will all be vitally important information when the United States goes to war with Austria, Germany, Italy, Spain, the United Kingdom, or Saudi Arabia in the next 50 years.
 
2012-07-31 02:25:43 PM

Bschott007:

Considering that in the real world, the F-15 has a 104-0 record in Air-to-Air combat I take issue with the validity of your post.


People keep saying that like it means something. Only the Israeli's used their F-15's against adversaries which actually fired back/posed a threat, and that was before any conflict the US deployed their Eagles to. The Eagle was a bit of an unknown quantity at that point in time, good on paper, but not tested in a real situation.

All engagements afterwards faced little to no resistance. Desert Storm represented the first use of the AMRAAM, and featured a multitude of engagements using ageing Sparrow's. Same story with Allied Force vs Serbia (mainly AMRAAMS in this case).

Although I personally believe that in an all-out-war the BVR engagement rules are a bit of a pipe-dream, when sufficient air superiority is fielded against a decidedly weaker opponent, a lot of the engagements will be performed at BVR ranges.
 
2012-07-31 02:32:34 PM

ha-ha-guy: Yes and in a real war, the E-3 Sentry sees the Typhoon coming in and passes the word over to a Patriot missile battery and scratch the Typhoons. Or a pair of F-22s fires from beyond visual range using targeting from the Sentry.

The entire point of the F-22 is it sneaks up on you and frags you before you know it is there (with AWACS guiding them, so they never even turn their radar on). Everyone knew from Day 1 the Typhoon was a better gunfighter. Heck the MiG-29 is a better gunfighter than a F-15, but in most tests (we bought some MiG airframes post cold war), the MiGs died before they got within 40km of the F-15s.


And the Typhoons won't shoot down the huge, lumbering, slow, totally non-stealthy 707 that is transmitting a huge radar signature because.....?
 
2012-07-31 02:38:44 PM

spentmiles: I went one-on-one with an F-22 at the joint exercise they're talking about. The German Typhoon pilot got me in close enough to jump onto its back. Hand over hand, I crawled up the fuselage as we streaked through the air at 750 knots. When I got to the front, I used a rock to smash the cockpit window, pulled the pilot out, and took control of the plane. I then put it into a nose dive using my belt to secure the stick before bailing out. I was the hero of the day.


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
 
2012-07-31 02:41:41 PM

Dheiner: spentmiles: I went one-on-one with an F-22 at the joint exercise they're talking about. The German Typhoon pilot got me in close enough to jump onto its back. Hand over hand, I crawled up the fuselage as we streaked through the air at 750 knots. When I got to the front, I used a rock to smash the cockpit window, pulled the pilot out, and took control of the plane. I then put it into a nose dive using my belt to secure the stick before bailing out. I was the hero of the day.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.


I know. What was holding his pants up if he used his belt to tie the controls?
 
2012-07-31 02:41:41 PM
I would not be surprised if it could be defeated with $12 worth of stuff from Toys-R-Us.
 
2012-07-31 02:42:19 PM

Zembla: Bschott007:

Considering that in the real world, the F-15 has a 104-0 record in Air-to-Air combat I take issue with the validity of your post.

People keep saying that like it means something. Only the Israeli's used their F-15's against adversaries which actually fired back/posed a threat, and that was before any conflict the US deployed their Eagles to. The Eagle was a bit of an unknown quantity at that point in time, good on paper, but not tested in a real situation.

All engagements afterwards faced little to no resistance. Desert Storm represented the first use of the AMRAAM, and featured a multitude of engagements using ageing Sparrow's. Same story with Allied Force vs Serbia (mainly AMRAAMS in this case).

Although I personally believe that in an all-out-war the BVR engagement rules are a bit of a pipe-dream, when sufficient air superiority is fielded against a decidedly weaker opponent, a lot of the engagements will be performed at BVR ranges.


The Eagle's reputation still stands. I also wish to point out that I never mentioned BRV in regards to the F-15. I stated the F-15 has 104-0 Kill ratio in ALL air-to-air combat. That is an impressive record. I believe the US has only lost one air-to-air battle since Vietnam (an F-18 lost in Desert Storm 1).

I can not speak to combat losses of F-16's, F-18's (beyond the lost one during Desert Storm 1) or any other allied/enemy airframe since Vietnam as I do not have that data.
 
2012-07-31 02:43:45 PM

Flint Ironstag: ha-ha-guy: Yes and in a real war, the E-3 Sentry sees the Typhoon coming in and passes the word over to a Patriot missile battery and scratch the Typhoons. Or a pair of F-22s fires from beyond visual range using targeting from the Sentry.

The entire point of the F-22 is it sneaks up on you and frags you before you know it is there (with AWACS guiding them, so they never even turn their radar on). Everyone knew from Day 1 the Typhoon was a better gunfighter. Heck the MiG-29 is a better gunfighter than a F-15, but in most tests (we bought some MiG airframes post cold war), the MiGs died before they got within 40km of the F-15s.

And the Typhoons won't shoot down the huge, lumbering, slow, totally non-stealthy 707 that is transmitting a huge radar signature because.....?


Because in order to get to the huge, lumbering, slow, totally non-stealthy 707 that is transmitting a huge radar signature, you have to get through the F-22s, F-15s, F-16s, and (eventually) F-35s that are being vectored by it, and that are guarding it. Taking out the general is a great idea in war, it leaves you facing a headless army... but you have to get through that army to get to the general.
 
2012-07-31 02:44:49 PM

ha-ha-guy: neritz: oldfarthenry: To be historically accurate/fair, the Germans usually have three or four years to f**k-up the planet before you star-spanglers notice there's a world war going on.

We don't like war...unless we start it.

Plus one would think the British Empire (upon which the sun never sets) and Friends, could handle one pissant nation state in Central Europe. Yet they kept proving us wrong.


They could have....If France quit surrendering.
 
2012-07-31 02:51:22 PM

devildog123: Flint Ironstag: ha-ha-guy: Yes and in a real war, the E-3 Sentry sees the Typhoon coming in and passes the word over to a Patriot missile battery and scratch the Typhoons. Or a pair of F-22s fires from beyond visual range using targeting from the Sentry.

The entire point of the F-22 is it sneaks up on you and frags you before you know it is there (with AWACS guiding them, so they never even turn their radar on). Everyone knew from Day 1 the Typhoon was a better gunfighter. Heck the MiG-29 is a better gunfighter than a F-15, but in most tests (we bought some MiG airframes post cold war), the MiGs died before they got within 40km of the F-15s.

And the Typhoons won't shoot down the huge, lumbering, slow, totally non-stealthy 707 that is transmitting a huge radar signature because.....?

Because in order to get to the huge, lumbering, slow, totally non-stealthy 707 that is transmitting a huge radar signature, you have to get through the F-22s, F-15s, F-16s, and (eventually) F-35s that are being vectored by it, and that are guarding it. Taking out the general is a great idea in war, it leaves you facing a headless army... but you have to get through that army to get to the general.


This. Or more simply put: The 707's operational range allows it to remain far beyond the range that enemies can engage it at.
 
2012-07-31 03:03:53 PM

Flint Ironstag: Dheiner: spentmiles: I went one-on-one with an F-22 at the joint exercise they're talking about. The German Typhoon pilot got me in close enough to jump onto its back. Hand over hand, I crawled up the fuselage as we streaked through the air at 750 knots. When I got to the front, I used a rock to smash the cockpit window, pulled the pilot out, and took control of the plane. I then put it into a nose dive using my belt to secure the stick before bailing out. I was the hero of the day.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I know. What was holding his pants up if he used his belt to tie the controls?


Sheer manly friction?
 
2012-07-31 03:06:16 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Germany -0-
USA 2

/done


Where did that "2" come from? As far as I know I'd be speaking Russian if the US never bothered to show up. The Russians were first to Berlin, Canada and the UK were the prime forces liberating The Netherlands and the US? They were lagging behind somewhere. Sure, you helped defeating the Nazi empire but don't kid yourself and think that you did anything other than speeding up the inevitable. You only joined the fighting out of self interest, you needed a market to sell stuff and having communists roll over Europe was something you couldn't allow because zOMG capitalism and democracy.
 
2012-07-31 03:14:20 PM

Flint Ironstag: ha-ha-guy: Yes and in a real war, the E-3 Sentry sees the Typhoon coming in and passes the word over to a Patriot missile battery and scratch the Typhoons. Or a pair of F-22s fires from beyond visual range using targeting from the Sentry.

The entire point of the F-22 is it sneaks up on you and frags you before you know it is there (with AWACS guiding them, so they never even turn their radar on). Everyone knew from Day 1 the Typhoon was a better gunfighter. Heck the MiG-29 is a better gunfighter than a F-15, but in most tests (we bought some MiG airframes post cold war), the MiGs died before they got within 40km of the F-15s.

And the Typhoons won't shoot down the huge, lumbering, slow, totally non-stealthy 707 that is transmitting a huge radar signature because.....?


As others have pointed out that we don't put our Command and Control Assets on the front lines, I will simple ask.

Are you really that farking retarded?
 
2012-07-31 03:20:02 PM

Gdalescrboz: JustGetItRight
Gdalescrboz: So they put the Raptors in a specific scenario that the Typhoons could exploit the 22s weakness...and they were still only evenly matched. Had the F-22 not specifically allowed the Typhoon to visably aquire them, the Germans would have had no idea wtf was going on

Also,
"But there's evidence that, in reality, most air combat occurs at close distance, despite air arms' wishful thinking."

Tell that to the F-15s which are 100-0 air-to-air engagements, all BVR. Welcome to the 21st century

I'm on your side, but this is plain wrong. Many of those kills were BVR/AIM-9 and I think the Israelis even have a couple of gun kills.

Don't tell me I'm wrong about them being BVR shots, then proceed to tell me they were BVR AIM-9 shots. BVR is BVR. Then say you go on to tell me you THINK xxxxx. Pro tip, don't tell someone they are wrong and then say you think it's because you THINK xxxx.


First, you'll note I followed my post with a correction. I left out the NOT that went before BVR.

But since you wanted some facts, here's a neat comparison of first gulf war kills. Notice how the VR list outnumbers the BVR by almost 2:1.

Now finally, here's a real pro tip. Know what you're talking about before you challenge someone else.

Here's a list of all Israeli air to air victories since 1974. It happens to include the weapon used (when known). There are two F-15 and numerous F-16 gun kills against supersonic fighters listed.
 
2012-07-31 03:36:35 PM

devildog123: PunGent: Slaves2Darkness: ManRay: Didn't the Germans have superior planes in WWII? And how did that work out?

Worked out great, right up until they ran out of pilots, planes and resources. The Germans problem is that the US could and did build more planes, tanks, ships, and guns then they did. The Allies did not achieve victory over the Germans through superior technology, but superior numbers and just good enough technology.

And a crapload of Russian infantry.

Riding in American gear, eating American food, and firing American ammo.


Most of which would've been useless for the first years of the war, sitting in warehouses while we desperately tried to train our guys. Check out our standing army in the 30s...farkin' tiny. We'd have had trouble invading Mexico, let alone Festung Europa.

Yes, Lend Lease helped, but it's silly pretending it was anything but a joint effort.
 
2012-07-31 03:40:05 PM

Bschott007: Zembla: Bschott007:

Considering that in the real world, the F-15 has a 104-0 record in Air-to-Air combat I take issue with the validity of your post.

People keep saying that like it means something. Only the Israeli's used their F-15's against adversaries which actually fired back/posed a threat, and that was before any conflict the US deployed their Eagles to. The Eagle was a bit of an unknown quantity at that point in time, good on paper, but not tested in a real situation.

All engagements afterwards faced little to no resistance. Desert Storm represented the first use of the AMRAAM, and featured a multitude of engagements using ageing Sparrow's. Same story with Allied Force vs Serbia (mainly AMRAAMS in this case).

Although I personally believe that in an all-out-war the BVR engagement rules are a bit of a pipe-dream, when sufficient air superiority is fielded against a decidedly weaker opponent, a lot of the engagements will be performed at BVR ranges.

The Eagle's reputation still stands. I also wish to point out that I never mentioned BRV in regards to the F-15. I stated the F-15 has 104-0 Kill ratio in ALL air-to-air combat. That is an impressive record. I believe the US has only lost one air-to-air battle since Vietnam (an F-18 lost in Desert Storm 1).

I can not speak to combat losses of F-16's, F-18's (beyond the lost one during Desert Storm 1) or any other allied/enemy airframe since Vietnam as I do not have that data.


It was weird seeing that downed "Lucky Devil" on TV. Good lord those guys dropped so much ordinence. Some kind of record.

401st TFW, FTW!

/462
 
2012-07-31 04:15:59 PM

ha-ha-guy: Flint Ironstag: ha-ha-guy: Yes and in a real war, the E-3 Sentry sees the Typhoon coming in and passes the word over to a Patriot missile battery and scratch the Typhoons. Or a pair of F-22s fires from beyond visual range using targeting from the Sentry.

The entire point of the F-22 is it sneaks up on you and frags you before you know it is there (with AWACS guiding them, so they never even turn their radar on). Everyone knew from Day 1 the Typhoon was a better gunfighter. Heck the MiG-29 is a better gunfighter than a F-15, but in most tests (we bought some MiG airframes post cold war), the MiGs died before they got within 40km of the F-15s.

And the Typhoons won't shoot down the huge, lumbering, slow, totally non-stealthy 707 that is transmitting a huge radar signature because.....?

As others have pointed out that we don't put our Command and Control Assets on the front lines, I will simple ask.

Are you really that farking retarded?


A radar platform, and I have been on an AWAC and flown the simulator BTW, has to be pretty close to the front line. Even at altitude the curvature of the Earth creates a huge blind spot that enemy aircraft can hide in. Having an AWAC well behind the front line greatly reduces its coverage and greatly increases the area an enemy aircraft can hide in ready to attack your forward aircraft, including the F-22 which won't want to turn on its radar because that's a huge beacon saying "Yohoo! I'm right here!" Not to mention that the radar signature from an AWAC can be detected from well outside the range where the AWAC can detect you.

And a Patriot missile unit is just as likely to take out a friendly Tornado. US forces have a rep for friendly fire. Giving them a weapon that can shoot at aircraft well BVR, where they can see if it is friend or foe, is pretty scary. The Vincennes shot down an Airbus in a climb thinking it was a fighter in a dive. God help their allies if they ever get involved in a war with F-22s flying around shooting at anything that comes into range...
 
2012-07-31 04:19:51 PM
Meanwhile, back on the front:

sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2012-07-31 04:57:17 PM

oldfarthenry: To be historically accurate/fair, the Germans usually have three or four years to f**k-up the planet before you star-spanglers notice there's a world war going on.



To be historically accurate/fair, we tend to mind our own business until people can't handle their own problems and it over-flows into our realm of influence.



/It only becomes a world war when we get involved along with everyone else
 
2012-07-31 05:11:32 PM

mojofinger: The big advantages the F-22 has over other aircraft is stealth, supercruise, and it's electronic warfare system....if you put it in a situation where it can't use any of those advantages, yeah, other aircraft have a shot.


If you read the article you will find that the other aircraft don't simplyl have a shot, they kick the F22's ass.
 
2012-07-31 05:17:13 PM

natmar_76: You mean it's not invincible and it doesn't have the secret of life and it won't teach us the secret of eternal youth?

Why did we pay all this money, then?!


It's not as much as not having the secret of life, but more of not doing the job everyone has been boasting boasting it would do for about a couple of decades.
 
2012-07-31 05:22:51 PM

improvius: So the F22 is evenly matched *IF* you can get close enough to furball? Yeah, good luck with that. The whole point is that this plane will kill you before you even know it's in your hemisphere.


So, you better inform all the potential enemies to always put their planes far away from any F22, and while they are at it also stay still in the crosshairs.
 
2012-07-31 05:54:17 PM

Thunderpipes: In other words, in a real fight, all German planes would be destroyed before they ever even saw the Raptors.


Well, They would have a problem with their typhoons.....See when you try to deploy one without an air craft carrier....it just kind of sinks when it rolls into the water.....

SO in a hypothetical situation where we were very very close to germany, like in their airspace, and they decided to attack us, and we were at very low altitude, then yeah, they could engage us in a dogfight...... For everywhere else in the world..... the German Typhoon is like the AutoBahn..... a very expensive way to get from point A to point B in Germany, but not really much good to anyone else in the world.....
 
2012-07-31 06:41:36 PM

macadamnut: traylor: ManRay: Didn't the Germans have superior planes in WWII? And how did that work out?

I'm not sure about your point, but here's something for you.
Link

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 300x300]


My mother lived in a house right next to where he crashed in N. Hollywood, so close she thought her house had been hit. She mentioned Major Bong, although I didn't know he was an ace.
 
2012-07-31 06:45:54 PM

Flint Ironstag: including the F-22 which won't want to turn on its radar because that's a huge beacon saying "Yohoo! I'm right here!"


That isn't what would happen. The F-22 uses the AN/APG-77 radar which isn't like other aircraft radars. It is an AESA radar or phased radar array. It scatters the radar signal over a wide spectrum and hides in the background noise. The F-22 could have their radar on and an enemy aircraft would never know they were being painted. AESA radars do not trigger the RWR systems in other aircraft.

/the more you know.
 
2012-07-31 07:13:37 PM

Bschott007: Flint Ironstag: including the F-22 which won't want to turn on its radar because that's a huge beacon saying "Yohoo! I'm right here!"

That isn't what would happen. The F-22 uses the AN/APG-77 radar which isn't like other aircraft radars. It is an AESA radar or phased radar array. It scatters the radar signal over a wide spectrum and hides in the background noise. The F-22 could have their radar on and an enemy aircraft would never know they were being painted. AESA radars do not trigger the RWR systems in other aircraft.

/the more you know.


Less likely to be jammed, but just because it's phased array doesn't mean it's undetectable, you're still sending out thousands of watts of EM energy that isn't there in the normal environment.

There's a reason the Navy's SPY-1 (Aegis phased array) radars are included under EMCON restrictions, we don't just go around blasting it out and saying "nah nah you can't detect us from hundred of miles beyond the radar's range". All radars operate in specific frequency bands, that is one way to tell if you're about to get a blue on blue.

IRT the Raptor:

Getting a Raptor into a turning fight is like fighting at low altitude in a P-47 Thunderbolt or at high altitude in a P-40 Warhawk, not the fight you want but it did/can happen.
 
2012-07-31 07:49:36 PM

Slaves2Darkness:

Worked out great, right up until they ran out of pilots, planes and resources. The Germans problem is that the US could and did build more planes, tanks, ships, and guns then they did. The Allies did not achieve victory over the Germans through superior technology, but superior numbers and just good enough technology.


An old Wehrmacht soldier told me once, "We ran out of 88 shells before you ran out of tanks."
 
2012-07-31 09:17:19 PM
The F-22 and F-35 are complete wastes of money.

Just re-fit new electronics into F-15 F-16 and F-18s and there you go. Air superiority for less than half the cost
 
2012-07-31 11:16:10 PM

threadjackistan: dittybopper: tiiger: You can't really do BVR without radar, and you can't really use RADAR while being stealthy. That is the big flaw in the F-22 stealth argument.

Yep.

What happens if Doofistan develops an air-to-air HARM-style missile that homes in on that radar until it's close enough to go to passive infrared?

What if they make it with a low enough radar cross-section that while it's not technically "stealthy", it will be within infrared range before the radar can detect it and get shut down? Hell, you might not even notice it electronically. First warning the F-22 pilot would have is the sight of the missile's smoke/contrail heading towards him.

Supposedly the big dished radar planes will uplink to the F-22s so they wont have to emit much. But this pretends that only we get to use electronic warfare, stealth, and drones. I hate to talk about it over the internet, but air-to-air drones are much simpler to develop than people who fly planes like to make them out to be.


Something like the Phantom Ray perhaps? Remote piloted drones are easy, autonomous aircraft is hard.
 
2012-08-01 01:08:18 AM

Slaves2Darkness: Worked out great, right up until they ran out of pilots, planes and resources. The Germans problem is that the US could and did build more planes, tanks, ships, and guns then they did. The Allies did not achieve victory over the Germans through superior technology, but superior numbers and just good enough technology.


That, and the Soviets were inflicting something like 5x as many casualties on them as we were.

I know it's not cool to acknowledge the russkies, but we couldn't have beat the nazis without them. Historical revisionism sucks, even when it means giving credit to people you'd rather not.
 
2012-08-01 01:16:01 AM
I think the entire point of the article which sadly many of you missed, is that the Typhoon will cream the F-22 WVR...I think even the article writer knows that in BVR the Raptor has an advantage but in air combat you have to take into consideration the possibility of a knifefight as well.
The AMRAAM while good is not exactly invincible. If the Raptor has exhausted all his AMRAAMS or couple of them jammed or misfire and have to go into a fight with just sidewinders and cannons, it will be at a huge disadvantage.
It's like a sniper and a guy/guys with AK-47s... if for whatever reason you missed and he/they come within say 400 or 500 yards and moving closer odds are you'll lose in the shootout.
Stealth does not make a plane invincible.. it merely makes the detection range shorter than it otherwise would be..
A typhoon's radar can probably detect an F-22 signature from 30 or 40 miles out so the Raptor better hope he takes all of them out before then and if they are actually close enough that the other pilot can see it with his eyes than buh-buye F-22 for sure.
 
2012-08-01 06:58:43 AM

devildog123: To say the Russians won WWII is just as stupid and ignorant as saying that the US did it all on it's own.



The USSR is the only reason Germany was defeated in Europe. Period. America faced 1/10th the forces and by the time they landed in France, the Soviets were already pushing Germany back on their own soil.
 
2012-08-01 08:00:46 AM

Bschott007: It scatters the radar signal over a wide spectrum and hides in the background noise. The F-22 could have their radar on and an enemy aircraft would never know they were being painted. AESA radars do not trigger the RWR systems in other aircraft.


If it radiates, you can detect it. You may need to design new RWR receivers, but you can't paint something with RF and not have it be detectable somehow.

/TMYK.
 
2012-08-01 08:15:05 AM
We spent $63.2 billion on state-of-the-art aircraft that use 20 year old missiles. Brilliant!
 
2012-08-01 09:59:17 AM

Nuc_E: You can see him from far away and he is in your range while you are not in his. He cannot see you, but he knows your general direction.


there are 40 guys hunting your sniper, and your sniper costs as much to train as 100 guys on the other side.

enemy does not have to defeat you, you defeat yourself
 
2012-08-01 10:31:56 AM

Bschott007: Flint Ironstag: including the F-22 which won't want to turn on its radar because that's a huge beacon saying "Yohoo! I'm right here!"

That isn't what would happen. The F-22 uses the AN/APG-77 radar which isn't like other aircraft radars. It is an AESA radar or phased radar array. It scatters the radar signal over a wide spectrum and hides in the background noise. The F-22 could have their radar on and an enemy aircraft would never know they were being painted. AESA radars do not trigger the RWR systems in other aircraft.

/the more you know.


Really? Lots of aircraft use AESA systems, including the Typhoon. The Typhoon isn't as mechanically stealthy as the F-22, but its radar is as stealthy. Also, phased array isn't the same as AESA as you imply. AESA are phased arrays but not all phased arrays are AESA.
 
2012-08-01 10:50:26 AM

mojofinger: The big advantages the F-22 has over other aircraft is stealth, supercruise, and it's electronic warfare system....if you put it in a situation where it can't use any of those advantages, yeah, other aircraft have a shot.


And the article says that happens 95% of the time. That's the farking point.
 
2012-08-01 11:00:49 AM

amoral: mojofinger: The big advantages the F-22 has over other aircraft is stealth, supercruise, and it's electronic warfare system....if you put it in a situation where it can't use any of those advantages, yeah, other aircraft have a shot.

And the article says that happens 95% of the time. That's the farking point.


True. Including times when the pilot is ordered to get WVR to identify the potential target or to intercept to "scare away" a potential threat. If either threat suddenly turns nasty then you are in a close up dogfight, like it or not. You can't say "Wait a minute guys, let me get a couple of hundfed miles away first..."

And remember a F-117 was shot down by a missile system that was designed in the sixties. The F-22 may be great from a couple of hundred miles away, but it can't get a couple of hundred miles away from the ground...
 
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