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(Daily Kos)   Just some pictures of the military in full camo and carrying grenade launchers in the war torn area known as Anaheim   (dailykos.com) divider line 804
    More: Scary, grenade launcher, USFA Fema Document, police violence, Health Care, International, Anaheim  
•       •       •

9727 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Jul 2012 at 12:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-31 04:02:45 AM

Nobodyn0se: Ok, so can we ALL agree that saying: "a grenade launcher that is loaded with tear gas grenades." or "the officer was equipped with tear gas grenades and launcher" is an accurate statement and move on from this semantic argument?


collider.com

And So Say We All!
 
2012-07-31 04:02:59 AM

Gyrfalcon: You're free to disregard me. I just have a decade's experience with the inner workings of The Mouse. And why they'd be marching TOWARD Disneyland when APD and the site of the shooting is dead in the opposite direction. YMMV.


Oh, no disregard at all, rather the opposite.
 
2012-07-31 04:03:28 AM

dudemanbro: Who really gives a fark either way?


I assume the people arguing about it give a fark.....


dudemanbro: The point is, authority figures of one stripe or another are shooting unarmed civilians, then intimidating other civilians who are rightly protesting that abuse of power.


And I will join your side in that argument. I'd like to clear up the original one first though.
 
2012-07-31 04:03:43 AM

404 page not found: Gyrfalcon: I just have a decade's experience with the inner workings of The Mouse.

Logical fallacy #18: Appeal to experience. Try again, quiz-kid.


Nice try, but I'm appealing to MY OWN experience. As a Disneyland cop. But I also said you're free to disregard my opinion on how DL is involved and why. Not like I know anything from having been there ten straight years, right?
 
2012-07-31 04:03:43 AM

ZipSplat: Sgt Otter: Civilian police tear gas rounds are 37mm. Military Grenades are 40mm (and yes, they make 40mm tear gas rounds for the military, so they don't need two launchers). They build them on roughly the same frame, and market one to cops, and the other to the military. They deliberately make the teargas launcher in a smaller caliber so it can't be loaded with HE grenade rounds. To the untrained eye, they're identical.

...what goddamned weapons course did you go to? Are you an 18B? Fess up.


Had a buddy who cross-trained into Public Affairs, and got a sweet gig as a Hollywood liaison. He was working on some project, and mentioned that most of the "40mm M203s" you see slung under M4s and M16s in action movies are actually 37mm tear gas / flare launchers. It's less of a hassle with the ATF, since it's impossible to fit a 40mm HEDP round in a 37mm "flare launcher."
 
2012-07-31 04:04:25 AM

ScreamingHangover: And So Say We All!


Seriously I'm about to jerk off to this comment.....

Is that wrong?
 
2012-07-31 04:04:27 AM

dudemanbro: Nobodyn0se: That's a separate argument. Can we move on from the "grenade launcher" vs. "teargas" argument and just call it "a grenade launcher loaded with tear gas"?

Who really gives a fark either way? The point is, authority figures of one stripe or another are shooting unarmed civilians, then intimidating other civilians who are rightly protesting that abuse of power.


I'll concur with that.
 
2012-07-31 04:04:55 AM

Corvus: In fact I probably knew about it before you did.


Wow, you're way cooler than I am.
Way to miss the point and keep harping on shiat that doesn't matter. What does matter is that militarized police forces are intimidating unarmed civilians for rightfully protesting the killing of other unarmed civilians. It smacks of totalitarianism, and I and lots of other people have a problem with that.
 
2012-07-31 04:04:59 AM

Corvus: ongbok: Corvus: ongbok: I never called the police in the article the military. All I commented on is how absurd it is to criticize and call somebody a liar for correctly calling a grenade launcher a grenade launcher. And how it is doubly absurd to then claim what the manufacturer calls a grenade launcher is no longer a grenade launcher because it is loaded with teargas grenades.

I didn't say you did.

Submitter is a liar because he called police "the us military". He was just being misleading about the grenades.


It's like saying "I got shot with a gun" and finding out the gun was a squirt gun. It's misleading.

Everybody already pretty much very early on acknowledge the police, military line in the headline. But some people decided to keep on arguing the point about it not being a grenade launcher, in fact some are still saying it is being misleading for calling it what it is.

So saying "I got shot by a gun" when the "gun" is a squirt gun is not misleading since a squirt gun is a gun?


Is it like that MASH episode where Frank gave himself a Purple Heart for getting shell fragments in his eye, only they were EGGSHELL fragments? Same same.
 
2012-07-31 04:05:00 AM
In fact I probably knew about it before you did.
cdn.fd.uproxx.com
 
2012-07-31 04:05:58 AM

Gyrfalcon: starsrift: Gyrfalcon: I'm getting my intel from someone--a friend--who works inside, and they were warned ahead of time that there would be a protest. And that the protestors were targeting DL as being the bony wrist in the sock puppet of APD.

Knowing what I do of DL's internal security, I'm going with my original surmise, which is that they were headed for DL to protest there.

Ah, WELL THEN.

You're free to disregard me. I just have a decade's experience with the inner workings of The Mouse. And why they'd be marching TOWARD Disneyland when APD and the site of the shooting is dead in the opposite direction. YMMV.


And Twitter doesn't allow email addresses to be posted unless they have already been published on the web.
 
2012-07-31 04:06:18 AM

Gyrfalcon: 404 page not found: Gyrfalcon: I just have a decade's experience with the inner workings of The Mouse.

Logical fallacy #18: Appeal to experience. Try again, quiz-kid.

Nice try, but I'm appealing to MY OWN experience. As a Disneyland cop. But I also said you're free to disregard my opinion on how DL is involved and why. Not like I know anything from having been there ten straight years, right?


Here is more about the Disneyland angle:

Anaheim police block protesters from Disneyland; 9 arrested

The protest took a dramatic turn when the crowd began marching en masse on Harbor Boulevard, saying they were headed to Disneyland. But police in riot gear corralled them, and many returned to police headquarters.
 
2012-07-31 04:06:31 AM

Nobodyn0se: ScreamingHangover: And So Say We All!

Seriously I'm about to jerk off to this comment.....

Is that wrong?


Knock yourself out.

/ And on that note, I'm calling it a night: have a good one!
 
2012-07-31 04:07:20 AM

ScreamingHangover: Knock yourself out.


Too late.... :(
 
2012-07-31 04:07:55 AM

libranoelrose: Gyrfalcon: starsrift: Gyrfalcon: I'm getting my intel from someone--a friend--who works inside, and they were warned ahead of time that there would be a protest. And that the protestors were targeting DL as being the bony wrist in the sock puppet of APD.

Knowing what I do of DL's internal security, I'm going with my original surmise, which is that they were headed for DL to protest there.

Ah, WELL THEN.

You're free to disregard me. I just have a decade's experience with the inner workings of The Mouse. And why they'd be marching TOWARD Disneyland when APD and the site of the shooting is dead in the opposite direction. YMMV.

And Twitter doesn't allow email addresses to be posted unless they have already been published on the web.


I TOLD you, I was BUSY. I like to do other things than argue Twits with the likes of you. (See referenced thread)
 
2012-07-31 04:09:20 AM

Corvus: ongbok: Corvus: ongbok: I never called the police in the article the military. All I commented on is how absurd it is to criticize and call somebody a liar for correctly calling a grenade launcher a grenade launcher. And how it is doubly absurd to then claim what the manufacturer calls a grenade launcher is no longer a grenade launcher because it is loaded with teargas grenades.

I didn't say you did.

Submitter is a liar because he called police "the us military". He was just being misleading about the grenades.


It's like saying "I got shot with a gun" and finding out the gun was a squirt gun. It's misleading.

Everybody already pretty much very early on acknowledge the police, military line in the headline. But some people decided to keep on arguing the point about it not being a grenade launcher, in fact some are still saying it is being misleading for calling it what it is.

So saying "I got shot by a gun" when the "gun" is a squirt gun is not misleading since a squirt gun is a gun?


If you are trying to claim serious injury it is. In this case with the grenade launcher it wasn't being used for crowd control and to fire teargas. It was being used to intimidate people who saw it and rightfully recognized it as a grenade launcher. That whole swat performance was an exercise in intimidation, from the guy walking around with a grenade launcher down to the officers wearing camo and combat gear.

So in this case calling it a grenade launcher without saying it was loaded with teargas isn't at all misleading because that is what the cops wanted it to be seen as, a grenade launcher, to scare the shiat out of people.
 
2012-07-31 04:10:30 AM

ongbok: So in this case calling it a grenade launcher without saying it was loaded with teargas isn't at all misleading because that is what the cops wanted it to be seen as, a grenade launcher, to scare the shiat out of people.


I'll take intimidation over violence ANY DAY.

Less people get hurt that way.
 
2012-07-31 04:10:50 AM

dudemanbro: Wow, you're way cooler than I am.
Way to miss the point and keep harping on shiat that doesn't matter. What does matter is that militarized police forces are intimidating unarmed civilians for rightfully protesting the killing of other unarmed civilians. It smacks of totalitarianism, and I and lots of other people have a problem with that.

Because the statements are lies!!

You re saying "Bad things are happening so we are allowed to lie!" That's BS and normal people will just discount you as being crazy conspiracy hippies.

If you don't realize that you are incapable of seeing the big picture to actually make any change that is needed.


You sound just as crazy screaming "totalitarianism" and "Martial law" as Tea party members screaming "OMG SOCIALISM!" and will not be taken seriously by people.
 
2012-07-31 04:12:41 AM

ongbok: Corvus: So saying "I got shot by a gun" when the "gun" is a squirt gun is not misleading since a squirt gun is a gun?

If you are trying to claim serious injury it is.


i0.kym-cdn.com

Ok I am done. This is too dumb to talk to too.
 
2012-07-31 04:12:42 AM

Gyrfalcon: I TOLD you, I was BUSY. I like to do other things than argue Twits with the likes of you. (See referenced thread)


lol

I think you meant Modern Police Tactics 2 in your post...
 
2012-07-31 04:14:30 AM
Because the statements are lies!!
i1.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-07-31 04:15:41 AM

libranoelrose: Gyrfalcon: I TOLD you, I was BUSY. I like to do other things than argue Twits with the likes of you. (See referenced thread)

lol

I think you meant Modern Police Tactics 2 Original Mall Ninja™ in your post...

 
2012-07-31 04:16:00 AM

ongbok: If you are trying to claim serious injury it is. In this case with the grenade launcher it wasn't being used for crowd control and to fire teargas. It was being used to intimidate people who saw it and rightfully recognized it as a grenade launcher. That whole swat performance was an exercise in intimidation, from the guy walking around with a grenade launcher down to the officers wearing camo and combat gear.


So your saying it's illegal for police to intimidate people?

They are not have to give out flowers and instead of saying "Stop or i'll shoot" must say "stop please, but I am not going to do anything if you decide not to"?
 
2012-07-31 04:18:08 AM

Corvus: You sound just as crazy screaming "totalitarianism" and "Martial law" as Tea party members screaming "OMG SOCIALISM!" and will not be taken seriously by people.


Cool, whatever. I leave you all with one final thought: Link (nsfw)
 
2012-07-31 04:18:58 AM

Nobodyn0se: ongbok: So in this case calling it a grenade launcher without saying it was loaded with teargas isn't at all misleading because that is what the cops wanted it to be seen as, a grenade launcher, to scare the shiat out of people.

I'll take intimidation over violence ANY DAY.

Less people get hurt that way.


Intimidating protestors usually is what starts causing peaceful protest to turn hostile. You see it all of the time. When there is a peaceful protest and you bring out police in regular gear, block trafic and let them protest everything stays kosher. But when you start bringing out police in riot gear and dogs the air starts getting more hostile. Then you bring out cops in camo and combat gear carrying weapons designed for war, you are asking for trouble. It makes you wonder sometimes what the heel whoever is in charge is thinking.
 
2012-07-31 04:19:19 AM
They are not have to give out flowers
www.inquisitr.com

instead of saying "Stop or i'll shoot" must say "stop please, but I am not going to do anything if you decide not to"?

Bzzzt! Logical fallacy #28: False dichotomy is false.
 
2012-07-31 04:20:59 AM

ongbok: So in this case calling it a grenade launcher without saying it was loaded with teargas isn't at all misleading because that is what the cops wanted it to be seen as, a grenade launcher, to scare the shiat out of people


Right because cops NEVER use tears gas against crowds that can turn violent.

Ok one question:

ongbok is in charge of the Anaheim police. How would you handle a large crowd that could get violent with out being intimidating or hurting anyone like you believe they should have been done?

/I feel a non-sequitor change of subject.
 
2012-07-31 04:21:42 AM
I wish I were more sorry than I am that I got dragged into this thread, but why the hell not.

The police have WAY too much gear because of the shootout in LA 1.5 decades ago the war on drugs.

Escalation has made people rich, and others dead.

You guys keep on debating, I have a burrito to nom.
 
2012-07-31 04:22:53 AM

dudemanbro: Corvus: You sound just as crazy screaming "totalitarianism" and "Martial law" as Tea party members screaming "OMG SOCIALISM!" and will not be taken seriously by people.

Cool, whatever. I leave you all with one final thought: Link (nsfw)


You notice how whenever I pose a tough question you change the subject instead of actually answering it? Why do you think that is?
 
2012-07-31 04:23:50 AM

Corvus: ongbok: If you are trying to claim serious injury it is. In this case with the grenade launcher it wasn't being used for crowd control and to fire teargas. It was being used to intimidate people who saw it and rightfully recognized it as a grenade launcher. That whole swat performance was an exercise in intimidation, from the guy walking around with a grenade launcher down to the officers wearing camo and combat gear.

So your saying it's illegal for police to intimidate people?

They are not have to give out flowers and instead of saying "Stop or i'll shoot" must say "stop please, but I am not going to do anything if you decide not to"?


Did I say that? You are dense.

It is not a smart move to try to intimidate protestors. When you try to intimidate them with an over the top show of force, they are going to push back. Then the cops are going to push back even harder, eventually this turns into a riot. And parading around in camo and combat gear like they are in the war torn streets of iraq is an over the top show of force.
 
2012-07-31 04:25:01 AM

Corvus: ongbok: So in this case calling it a grenade launcher without saying it was loaded with teargas isn't at all misleading because that is what the cops wanted it to be seen as, a grenade launcher, to scare the shiat out of people

Right because cops NEVER use tears gas against crowds that can turn violent.

Ok one question:

ongbok is in charge of the Anaheim police. How would you handle a large crowd that could get violent with out being intimidating or hurting anyone like you believe they should have been done?

/I feel a non-sequitor change of subject.


Bring the Police Commissioner and the Mayor and perhaps legal counsel from the ACLU. Ask the crowd to designate 3 leaders. offer to have the Commish, Mayor, and ACLU sit down with the crowd's 3 leaders and talk, for hours if necessary, to decide ways to repair the police reputation in the community, and to negotiate steps that the city and police department can take to deal with the police officers who are on youtube, sicking dogs on moms and shooting kids with rubber bullets.

Why is it that negotiating with civilians is not an option in the USA?
 
2012-07-31 04:25:10 AM
I don't even know who is on who's side anymore.

This thread needs some kind of rules posted.
 
2012-07-31 04:25:26 AM
You notice how whenever I pose a tough question
i1.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-07-31 04:25:54 AM

dudemanbro: Corvus: You sound just as crazy screaming "totalitarianism" and "Martial law" as Tea party members screaming "OMG SOCIALISM!" and will not be taken seriously by people.

Cool, whatever. I leave you all with one final thought: Link (nsfw)


You smoke a lot of pot don't you? Why doesn't that surprise me? Oh I know because you are incapable of following a few logical statements, instead you flip to something else when ever anything takes some concentration.
 
2012-07-31 04:27:40 AM

ongbok: It is not a smart move to try to intimidate protestors. When you try to intimidate them with an over the top show of force, they are going to push back. Then the cops are going to push back even harder, eventually this turns into a riot. And parading around in camo and combat gear like they are in the war torn streets of iraq is an over the top show of force.


Actually that is not true at all.

But you tell us how you would have handled it.

Wow I said you would try to change the subject. Imagine that that is what you did.

Remember intimidation is not allowed right?
 
2012-07-31 04:28:05 AM
i.imgur.com
 
2012-07-31 04:28:52 AM
You smoke a lot of pot don't you? Why doesn't that surprise me? Oh I know because you are incapable of following a few logical statements, instead you flip to something else when ever anything takes some concentration.

Bzzzt! Logical Fallacy #2: ad hominem
 
2012-07-31 04:29:04 AM

Corvus: dudemanbro: Corvus: You sound just as crazy screaming "totalitarianism" and "Martial law" as Tea party members screaming "OMG SOCIALISM!" and will not be taken seriously by people.

Cool, whatever. I leave you all with one final thought: Link (nsfw)

You smoke a lot of pot don't you? Why doesn't that surprise me? Oh I know because you are incapable of following a few logical statements, instead you flip to something else when ever anything takes some concentration.


Being a dick to a dick doesn't make you a better dick.
 
2012-07-31 04:30:04 AM

Bennie Crabtree: Corvus: ongbok: So in this case calling it a grenade launcher without saying it was loaded with teargas isn't at all misleading because that is what the cops wanted it to be seen as, a grenade launcher, to scare the shiat out of people

Right because cops NEVER use tears gas against crowds that can turn violent.

Ok one question:

ongbok is in charge of the Anaheim police. How would you handle a large crowd that could get violent with out being intimidating or hurting anyone like you believe they should have been done?

/I feel a non-sequitor change of subject.

Bring the Police Commissioner and the Mayor and perhaps legal counsel from the ACLU. Ask the crowd to designate 3 leaders. offer to have the Commish, Mayor, and ACLU sit down with the crowd's 3 leaders and talk, for hours if necessary, to decide ways to repair the police reputation in the community, and to negotiate steps that the city and police department can take to deal with the police officers who are on youtube, sicking dogs on moms and shooting kids with rubber bullets.

Why is it that negotiating with civilians is not an option in the USA?


And the police go up to them completely unarmed? So you have two unarmed cops go into the crowed and ask them this?

What do you do if they refuse? what do you do if they throw rocks?
 
2012-07-31 04:30:10 AM

Nobodyn0se: ScreamingHangover:

Actually, it is a grenade launcher. It can launch tear gas grenades, but that doesn't stop the fact it's a grenade launcher.

Actually, it's a tear gas launcher. It can launch grenades, but that doesn't stop the fact that it's a tear gas launcher.

Also, nobody in their right mind believes that thing is loaded with grenades. They're the police, not the 82nd airborne.


Heh, fun fact, do you know what they call the rounds they launch out of it that are filled with tear gas? Grenades. Because it's a grenade launcher. It fires several types of, wait for it... grenades. It doesn't fire tear gas, it fires tear gas grenades.

Also, it might not be loaded with tear gas, it's not the only non-lethal round available.
.
.
.
.

/like was said above, you can shoot rubber bullets out of a shotgun, but it's still a shotgun.
 
2012-07-31 04:31:03 AM

ongbok:

It is not a smart move to try to intimidate protestors. When you try to intimidate them with an over the top show of force, they are going to push back. Then the cops are going to push back even harder, eventually this turns into a riot. And parading around in camo and combat gear like they are in the war torn streets of iraq is an over the top show of force.


Do you have any actual evidence to support this? Knowing many police officers with experience in large group control, they would claim that intimidation works to keep small problems from becoming large problems.
 
2012-07-31 04:31:23 AM

libranoelrose: Corvus: dudemanbro: Corvus: You sound just as crazy screaming "totalitarianism" and "Martial law" as Tea party members screaming "OMG SOCIALISM!" and will not be taken seriously by people.

Cool, whatever. I leave you all with one final thought: Link (nsfw)

You smoke a lot of pot don't you? Why doesn't that surprise me? Oh I know because you are incapable of following a few logical statements, instead you flip to something else when ever anything takes some concentration.

Being a dick to a dick doesn't make you a better dick.


How was I being a dick exactly?

You think calling someone a pot smoker is an insult? You don't think he was doing the things I listed he was doing?
 
2012-07-31 04:32:48 AM
what do you do if they throw rocks?
29.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-07-31 04:33:05 AM

timujin: Heh, fun fact, do you know what they call the rounds they launch out of it that are filled with tear gas? Grenades. Because it's a grenade launcher. It fires several types of, wait for it... grenades. It doesn't fire tear gas, it fires tear gas grenades.

Also, it might not be loaded with tear gas, it's not the only non-lethal round available.
.
.
.
.
/like was said above, you can shoot rubber bullets out of a shotgun, but it's still a shotgun.



Like was said above:

Nobodyn0se: Ok, so can we ALL agree that saying: "a grenade launcher that is loaded with tear gas grenades." or "the officer was equipped with tear gas grenades and launcher" is an accurate statement and move on from this semantic argument?

 
2012-07-31 04:33:05 AM

Nobodyn0se: ongbok:

It is not a smart move to try to intimidate protestors. When you try to intimidate them with an over the top show of force, they are going to push back. Then the cops are going to push back even harder, eventually this turns into a riot. And parading around in camo and combat gear like they are in the war torn streets of iraq is an over the top show of force.

Do you have any actual evidence to support this? Knowing many police officers with experience in large group control, they would claim that intimidation works to keep small problems from becoming large problems.


Yeah he is wrong. The books about crowd control say that you go in with a lot more intimidating looking to not have violence.
 
2012-07-31 04:33:05 AM

Corvus: You smoke a lot of pot don't you?


Nope.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Because you're using a strawman argument and attempting to discredit me. In other words, you're an asshole.

Oh I know because you are incapable of following a few logical statements, instead you flip to something else when ever anything takes some concentration.

No, on the contrary you have tried to make this conversation other than what it has always been about, which is abuse of power by the "authorities." As noted in my link, when the shiat goes down, you better be ready. Good night.
 
2012-07-31 04:33:26 AM

Corvus: ongbok: So in this case calling it a grenade launcher without saying it was loaded with teargas isn't at all misleading because that is what the cops wanted it to be seen as, a grenade launcher, to scare the shiat out of people

Right because cops NEVER use tears gas against crowds that can turn violent.

Ok one question:

ongbok is in charge of the Anaheim police. How would you handle a large crowd that could get violent with out being intimidating or hurting anyone like you believe they should have been done?

/I feel a non-sequitor change of subject.


So you think because a crowd could get out of control you have to proactivly intimidate people and hurt them? Something is wrong with you.

This is how I would handle it. Were they violent? No they were not. People have the right to protest no matter what size crowd they were. If I were in charge I would have a large group of regular uniformed officers escorting and blocking traffic for the protestors until they got to where they wanted to go. I would have riot police on standby close by, but out of view of the protestors so their presence wouldn't cause any pushback from the protestors.

This isn't that hard. This is how the Chicago police have been handling OWS, and how they handled the UN meetings that were here a while ago, and you didn't see all of that craziness that you saw in other places where the police felt the need to intimidate and hurt peaceful protestors.
 
2012-07-31 04:34:07 AM

Corvus: libranoelrose: Corvus: dudemanbro: Corvus: You sound just as crazy screaming "totalitarianism" and "Martial law" as Tea party members screaming "OMG SOCIALISM!" and will not be taken seriously by people.

Cool, whatever. I leave you all with one final thought: Link (nsfw)

You smoke a lot of pot don't you? Why doesn't that surprise me? Oh I know because you are incapable of following a few logical statements, instead you flip to something else when ever anything takes some concentration.

Being a dick to a dick doesn't make you a better dick.

How was I being a dick exactly?

You think calling someone a pot smoker is an insult? You don't think he was doing the things I listed he was doing?


I have no idea if he smokes pot, but your accusation removes your argument.
 
2012-07-31 04:35:35 AM

404 page not found: Bzzzt! Logical Fallacy #2: ad hominem


Thanks, that was the term I was looking for, not strawman. Cheers and good night.
 
2012-07-31 04:35:43 AM

dudemanbro: No, on the contrary you have tried to make this conversation other than what it has always been about, which is abuse of power by the "authorities." As noted in my link, when the shiat goes down, you better be ready. Good night.


Right my point is you look like a crazy hippie lying about what actually is happening and you discredit everyone else. You are not taking responsibility for your own actions instead you are justifying people's misrepresentation of the facts.
 
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