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(Westword)   Coloradoan decides to test the state's open-carry firearm law, apparently not realizing the law does not allow carrying in an establishment where liquor is served. Yes, it's a theatre   (blogs.westword.com) divider line 331
    More: Dumbass, James Mapes, firearms, establishments, Thornton Police Department  
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9780 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Jul 2012 at 2:26 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-30 03:08:11 PM  
rhino33: serial_crusher: It's slightly possible that he didn't know they sell alcohol there? Most crappy movie theaters don't.


actually most theaters have corporate "no weapons" policies in place. it's up to the CCW holder to do the research before hand. it similar for places like Target and Walmart. Target doesn't allow weapons, but Walmart does.


The Target I visit in Maine does not have any sort of sign stating concealed firearms are not allowed, nor does the local theater. I carry in both all the time. I can also carry at a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as I don't sit in the bar area. I walked into Target one day not knowing my shiat had slipped up and my Glock 27 was showing, nobody at Target said one word about it and I was in the store for a good 5 minutes before I realized it was exposed.
 
2012-07-30 03:08:12 PM  

LandOfChocolate: Why bother with open carry? Unless you're in law enforcement, you look like a complete tool.


I agree, but sometimes it's tough. When you got a small firearm down each sock, and the third in the crotch of your pants, sometimes it's kind of hard to hide the fourth when it's warm out and you don't want to wear a jacket, and your "DIE OBAMA" t-shirt just doesn't do the trick.
 
2012-07-30 03:11:20 PM  
redmid17: People who make sweeping generalizations about all CCW laws...

I considered omitting the "illegal" bit specifically to preempt this kind of pedantry, but I thought I might be able to sneak it by without the nitpicking asshole brigade noticing. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. To be fair, I bolded the other half of that statement just for your benefit.

JesseL: If it's legal and you're not drinking, why would you say it's stupid?

Carrying in bars has historically always led to Bad Things (TM), which is why it ends up getting banned *in most jurisdictions. You may not be drinking and carrying, and that's commendable, but the vast majority of people in a bar do go there to drink, and having a firearm in an environment that by definition is antithetical to common sense is pretty stupid -- any bar fight that breaks out is much more likely to end with a funeral than it would if the firearm were left in the car.
 
2012-07-30 03:12:44 PM  
ummm......Colorado allows carry in places that serve alcohol

Link

and from the article:
"And because the element of the potential charge regarding liquor and beer is what Barnes terms "a sentence-enhancer," it wouldn't apply if the dangerous weapons charge is found to be a non-starter."

translation:
Carry in establishments that serve alcohol = OK so long as you are able to carry the firearm to begin with, otherwise they tack on an additional charge
 
2012-07-30 03:13:55 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: From his own letter to the editor:

Just one concealed-weapon holder in a classroom where a random criminal attempts to shoot the occupants could and would reduce the casualties, as they would either take out the offender or at least distract them while others managed to get distance from the shooter.

Can someone point me to an instance where somebody packin' saved dozens of people by taking the shooter out?


I'm not saying you did this but one of the main arguments I heard against open carry laws after the Aurora shooting was that other people with firearms in that theater wouldn't have done anything but cause more casualties in a crossfire with the d-bag shooter. Can anyone point me to a case where an armed citizen shot innocent bystanders while trying to stop an armed crook? I've not been given even one example of it happening and I would that that odds are that it's happened at some point. Apparently it's been so infrequently that there's nothing much to find though.
 
2012-07-30 03:14:23 PM  
Charges won't end up being filed.

Why, you ask?

This:

FTFA:

"a Thornton ordinance targets individuals who display a dangerous weapon (the list even includes air guns and slingshots) "in a manner calculated to alarm another person." And there's no question that Mapes's presence at the theater wearing a gun in plain sight did just that."

So, his arrest was essentially for brandishing. Only problem, higher courts have repeatedly ruled that wearing a firearm in a holster is not brandishing. Sorry little town, no conviction for you.
 
2012-07-30 03:14:33 PM  

PsyLord: IIRC, Nightline did a little simulation shortly after the VTech shooting where they gave a few students in a classroom a paint pellet gun and told them that someone was going to come in and start blasting. Even with the warning, the students ended up either not getting a shot off before being shot themselves or shooting innocent students that got in their line of sight.


which is amazing, because random students tend to have weapon training, and paintguns tend to be remarkably accurate (especially the cheaper, trying-to-make-a-point kind that were likely used).
 
2012-07-30 03:14:34 PM  
"It wasn't really a political statement," Mapes says. "I just went to see a movie. But it's a political statement that one madman out of four-and-a-half-million people shouldn't be dictating to the rest of us that we should stay in our houses."

But you were so concerned for your safety, you thought you needed to openly brandish a firearm to go watch Neighborhood Watch.
 
2012-07-30 03:16:29 PM  

JesseL: Farkin_Crazy: JesseL: www.fark.com/comments/7226694/-71-year-old-geezer-fights-off-pair-of -1 9-year-old-thugs-robbing-internet-cafe-With-video-baddasserywait-inter net-cafes-still-exist?

I was thinking more of mass murders instead of thieves.

Do you have one of these?:

[images.wikia.com image 690x535]

No? Then how the hell can you ever know what would have happened in any situation if circumstances had been different? I'm not going to give armed robbers the benefit of the doubt and assume that nobody would have been hurt if they hadn't been stopped.


I don't disagree with your assessment of the situation you linked, but unless I miss the mark as badly as you appear to, he appears to have been asking about conflict in progress. Y'know, bullets flying, blood seeping, people screaming, that sort of thing. And there are situations where that's happened too, so feel free to link those. They don't outnumber, either per incident, or per life the number of guys who've shot their child, grandmother, or wife while cleaning or unloading a gun, but an argument could be made that they exist as a deterrent. Because if we've learned anything, it's that crazy people who set out to shoot up a place are good at thinking logically. Hopefully they aren't too good at it, though, or Mr. Open-Carry Savior of Real Americans first indication of the situation will be the series finale of the Sopra
 
2012-07-30 03:16:47 PM  

PsyLord: Farkin_Crazy: From his own letter to the editor:

Just one concealed-weapon holder in a classroom where a random criminal attempts to shoot the occupants could and would reduce the casualties, as they would either take out the offender or at least distract them while others managed to get distance from the shooter.

Can someone point me to an instance where somebody packin' saved dozens of people by taking the shooter out?

IIRC, Nightline did a little simulation shortly after the VTech shooting where they gave a few students in a classroom a paint pellet gun and told them that someone was going to come in and start blasting. Even with the warning, the students ended up either not getting a shot off before being shot themselves or shooting innocent students that got in their line of sight.


And you actually believed that wasn't set up from the start? Funny how the gunman seemed to know exactly where the armed student was every time. Sometimes even before the student went for his gun. Not to mention the part of the gunman was played by a trained police officer. The student was played by someone who seems to have no firearm training or experience at all. And on top of that, the way they had the student dress made it very difficult for them to get to their concealed weapon. And we cant forget about the college students that were hired to clean out a garage and find a gun in a drawer. I dont care if you've never handled a gun before in your entire life, no one stupid enough to try to determine if a gun is loaded by looking down the barrel without having some sort of mental retardation.
 
2012-07-30 03:17:50 PM  
Um, I've been to this theater. It's one of those theaters where you go in, sit down and then order food and/or drinks to eat during the movie. You have to walk past the bar to get to the theaters. The last time I was there, they had big signs advertising Guinness milkshakes everywhere. The menus also have alcohol choices on them.

Sometimes, the box office isn't open so you have to buy tickets at the bar, There is no way that he didn't know they served alcohol there.
 
2012-07-30 03:17:51 PM  

jayhawk88: "It wasn't really a political statement," Mapes says. "I just went to see a movie. But it's a political statement that one madman out of four-and-a-half-million people shouldn't be dictating to the rest of us that we should stay in our houses."

But you were so concerned for your safety, you thought you needed to openly brandish a firearm to go watch Neighborhood Watch.


It's not "brandishing". It's holstered.
Brandish: Wave or flourish (something, esp. a weapon) as a threat or in anger or excitement.

If your life is threatened by a holstered pistol, then my life is threatened by a parked car.
 
2012-07-30 03:18:59 PM  

The Asshole Guy: rhino33: serial_crusher: It's slightly possible that he didn't know they sell alcohol there? Most crappy movie theaters don't.


actually most theaters have corporate "no weapons" policies in place. it's up to the CCW holder to do the research before hand. it similar for places like Target and Walmart. Target doesn't allow weapons, but Walmart does.

The Target I visit in Maine does not have any sort of sign stating concealed firearms are not allowed, nor does the local theater. I carry in both all the time. I can also carry at a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as I don't sit in the bar area. I walked into Target one day not knowing my shiat had slipped up and my Glock 27 was showing, nobody at Target said one word about it and I was in the store for a good 5 minutes before I realized it was exposed.


I can't speak for every state, but in Virginia one may open carry (no permit required) or conceal (need a permit) on private property without giving notice to the landowner, unless that property is posted... meaning, it's not up to me to research whether a business or individual allows me to carry on their property, it's their responsibility to post signs.
 
2012-07-30 03:19:54 PM  

wmoonfox: redmid17: People who make sweeping generalizations about all CCW laws...

I considered omitting the "illegal" bit specifically to preempt this kind of pedantry, but I thought I might be able to sneak it by without the nitpicking asshole brigade noticing. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. To be fair, I bolded the other half of that statement just for your benefit.

JesseL: If it's legal and you're not drinking, why would you say it's stupid?

Carrying in bars has historically always led to Bad Things (TM), which is why it ends up getting banned *in most jurisdictions. You may not be drinking and carrying, and that's commendable, but the vast majority of people in a bar do go there to drink, and having a firearm in an environment that by definition is antithetical to common sense is pretty stupid -- any bar fight that breaks out is much more likely to end with a funeral than it would if the firearm were left in the car.


It's not pedantry if it's correcting a false statement. The ability to conceal a weapon and carry it around is neither minor nor inappropriate knowledge. That said, just because it's legal doesn't mean it's even remotely close to an acceptable idea. If I knew people who carried in bars (hard to in IL but not in home state of IN), I would find myself around them less.
 
2012-07-30 03:20:19 PM  
He declines to provide the full slogan on the shirt, which starts with the word "LIBERALISM,"

Oh he's one of those people.
 
2012-07-30 03:20:37 PM  

JesseL: No? Then how the hell can you ever know what would have happened in any situation if circumstances had been different? I'm not going to give armed robbers the benefit of the doubt and assume that nobody would have been hurt if they hadn't been stopped.


So why should we give conceal/carry owners the benefit of the doubt and assume they'll needlessly escalate a situation, leading to a death, or themselves shoot an innocent?
 
2012-07-30 03:20:48 PM  
i29.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-30 03:23:59 PM  

rhino33: serial_crusher: It's slightly possible that he didn't know they sell alcohol there? Most crappy movie theaters don't.


actually most theaters have corporate "no weapons" policies in place. it's up to the CCW holder to do the research before hand. it similar for places like Target and Walmart. Target doesn't allow weapons, but Walmart does.


In Texas, corporate policy by itself doesn't matter. CHL holders have to be notified either orally or in writing that they aren't allowed to carry in a business. A picture of a handgun with the univerisal "NOT ALLOWED" red cross through doesn't cut it as written notifcation. A sign that meets the requirements of statute 30.06 has to be posted at every entrance. These include certain wording in letters at least an inch high in both English and Spanish. (It's always been funny to me that conservative law makers, who are generally opposed to anything being in Spanish, tacked on this requirement to make it that much more onerous to prevent concealed carry.) CHL holders call them "thirty-aught-six" signs, like the rifle round. I've actually never seen one in person. It's commonly thought that Texas LEOs and courts interpret these requirements very strictly. In fact, you can find websites with user-generated databases of where these signs are located along with whether they are beleived to be valid.
 
2012-07-30 03:24:26 PM  

PsyLord: Farkin_Crazy: From his own letter to the editor:

Just one concealed-weapon holder in a classroom where a random criminal attempts to shoot the occupants could and would reduce the casualties, as they would either take out the offender or at least distract them while others managed to get distance from the shooter.

Can someone point me to an instance where somebody packin' saved dozens of people by taking the shooter out?

IIRC, Nightline did a little simulation shortly after the VTech shooting where they gave a few students in a classroom a paint pellet gun and told them that someone was going to come in and start blasting. Even with the warning, the students ended up either not getting a shot off before being shot themselves or shooting innocent students that got in their line of sight.


They also had their shooter magically know exactly where the armed student would be sitting, and the role of the shooter was played by an experienced SWAT officer against their student with 10 minutes of training.
 
2012-07-30 03:24:57 PM  

InternetSecurityGuard: James, James, James. You need to check out Thunderwear:
http://www.thunderwear.com/holsters.asp
Either that or cut the pretense and start carrying a murse:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/BAG-070
I have been carrying one of these around for several years now. So folks have gotten used to seeing me with it. Externally it has radios, GPS and cameras. But folks have no idea what is in the hidden pcket.


But how's he supposed to shoot the liberal shooter if his gun is concealed in a secret pocket? Dammit, when the man needs to shoot someone, he needs to do it NOW.

Also, he looks exactly like what I'd expect a guy like him to look like:

blogs.westword.com

Ignorant and proud of it.
 
2012-07-30 03:26:38 PM  

Rostin: A picture of a handgun with the univerisal "NOT ALLOWED" red cross through doesn't cut it as written notifcation.


Because in Texas, right and wrong don't matter, just the law. If it's not explicitly illegal and posted as such, it's legal.

/Texas logics is the bestest logics.
 
2012-07-30 03:26:42 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: JesseL: www.fark.com/comments/7226694/-71-year-old-geezer-fights-off-pair-of -1 9-year-old-thugs-robbing-internet-cafe-With-video-baddasserywait-inter net-cafes-still-exist?

I was thinking more of mass murders instead of thieves.


If they are killed before they get the chance to mass murder, then they aren't mass murderers now are they?
 
2012-07-30 03:26:56 PM  

jayhawk88: JesseL: No? Then how the hell can you ever know what would have happened in any situation if circumstances had been different? I'm not going to give armed robbers the benefit of the doubt and assume that nobody would have been hurt if they hadn't been stopped.

So why should we give conceal/carry owners the benefit of the doubt and assume they'll needlessly escalate a situation, leading to a death, or themselves shoot an innocent?


Because people have a fundamental right to self defense and legal CCW holders have already gone out of their way to prove that they're not criminally inclined.

Legal carriers of concealed weapons have a lower rate of felony convictions than nearly any other group you might care to name - including police officers.
 
2012-07-30 03:26:57 PM  

Grimm2785: PsyLord: Farkin_Crazy: From his own letter to the editor:

Just one concealed-weapon holder in a classroom where a random criminal attempts to shoot the occupants could and would reduce the casualties, as they would either take out the offender or at least distract them while others managed to get distance from the shooter.

Can someone point me to an instance where somebody packin' saved dozens of people by taking the shooter out?

IIRC, Nightline did a little simulation shortly after the VTech shooting where they gave a few students in a classroom a paint pellet gun and told them that someone was going to come in and start blasting. Even with the warning, the students ended up either not getting a shot off before being shot themselves or shooting innocent students that got in their line of sight.

And you actually believed that wasn't set up from the start? Funny how the gunman seemed to know exactly where the armed student was every time. Sometimes even before the student went for his gun. Not to mention the part of the gunman was played by a trained police officer. The student was played by someone who seems to have no firearm training or experience at all. And on top of that, the way they had the student dress made it very difficult for them to get to their concealed weapon. And we cant forget about the college students that were hired to clean out a garage and find a gun in a drawer. I dont care if you've never handled a gun before in your entire life, no one stupid enough to try to determine if a gun is loaded by looking down the barrel without having some sort of mental retardation.


I wonder how the classrooms fared, that had NO "armed" students in them. Nightline did run that scenario where the gunman was unopposed, right?
 
2012-07-30 03:27:25 PM  

Grimm2785: iheartscotch: You have to know your local ordinances; some places you can legally waive your gun around in public. I don't know why you would; but you can. Open carry is a tricky one; mostly because some conceal carry ordinances apply to open carry. Some places, the type of holster is regulated; it's all based on local ordinance. And, it's complicated as all hell

/ I'm glad I live in a place where it is quite legal to open carry just about anywhere.

// sometimes, though, it's best to listen to johnny cash and leave your guns at home

This is why i love living in Pennsylvania. Only the state has the power to pass laws about carrying a firearm. So basically anytime you have a local ordinance saying you cant carry there, you can ignore it. However, the rights of property owners are not something you can ignore. I conceal carry everywhere i go. If a business has a restriction on that, i simply go elsewhere. And as much as i like Johnny Cash, im afraid he and i are going to have to disagree on that point. When criminals start scheduling their illegal activity with me in advance, then i would agree i can sometimes leave my firearm at home. Until then, i reserve the right to protect myself.


THIS

Its always funny when the Philadelphia police dont even know the laws of their own state. They will arrest or more frequently answer questions that you cannot carry a firearm in the city limits. When the law is that no city or municipality can supersede state firearm laws. Philadelphia can suck it on that note, but I can see why they would want to discourage as many guns there as possible being so close and getting the overflow from that cesspool of human garbage that floats over from NJ, more specifically Camden. Cant they just make a REAAAAALLY long bridge to bypass that whole area.

/thankfully dont live in philly
//choose to DO my livin over 2 hours away, but have to MAKE that livin in Philly.

Now if you open carry you can then open yourself up to a disorderly conduct ticket or causing a riot infraction, but
 
2012-07-30 03:28:56 PM  

Bathia_Mapes: Oh, great. His last name is "Mapes". :/


i.imgur.com
 
2012-07-30 03:29:01 PM  

JesseL: against their student with 10 minutes of training.


How much training is required for a CCW?
 
2012-07-30 03:29:12 PM  
oakleym82: The Asshole Guy: rhino33: serial_crusher: It's slightly possible that he didn't know they sell alcohol there? Most crappy movie theaters don't.


actually most theaters have corporate "no weapons" policies in place. it's up to the CCW holder to do the research before hand. it similar for places like Target and Walmart. Target doesn't allow weapons, but Walmart does.

The Target I visit in Maine does not have any sort of sign stating concealed firearms are not allowed, nor does the local theater. I carry in both all the time. I can also carry at a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as I don't sit in the bar area. I walked into Target one day not knowing my shiat had slipped up and my Glock 27 was showing, nobody at Target said one word about it and I was in the store for a good 5 minutes before I realized it was exposed.

I can't speak for every state, but in Virginia one may open carry (no permit required) or conceal (need a permit) on private property without giving notice to the landowner, unless that property is posted... meaning, it's not up to me to research whether a business or individual allows me to carry on their property, it's their responsibility to post signs.


In Maine you can OC without a permit. You can have a firearm in your vehicle without a permit as long as it is unloaded and in plain sight. You need your CFP to carry concealed and loaded in your vehicle and other than the obvious places, ie. school, bar, police station, court, if a sign is not posted you are in the clear. The only store I know of in my area that does not allowed concealed carry is the Family Dollar store. They do have the signs stating so on their door but I don't shop there so it is no biggie.
 
2012-07-30 03:29:36 PM  

LandOfChocolate: Why bother with open carry? Unless you're in law enforcement, you look like a complete tool.


Possibly for exactly this reason. Imagine that everyone who CCW did open carry. Now imagine a town like this where maybe 10% or so of the folks wander around CCW. That's 1 in 10 people. In a movie theater of 100 seating, you'll see 10 guns.

It would be untenable for people to panic at seeing a gun, even if the lot of them were in a theater where people got shot the prior week by some insane gunman. Why? Because they see guns all the damn time. What are they going to do? Call 911 every 4 seconds?

On the other hand, 90% of the town CCW, nobody ever sees a gun, then somebody notices the lump at your hip and realizes it has a handle and calls the police even though nearly everyone else around him ever always has a gun on their hip too.
 
2012-07-30 03:30:28 PM  

Petit_Merdeux: JesseL: against their student with 10 minutes of training.

How much training is required for a CCW?


Depends on the state. When I got mine it was 16 hours.
 
2012-07-30 03:30:54 PM  
So it appears he was within his rights, as he wasn't consuming and he wasn't brandishing. That's my kind of political statement, even if I'm not inclined to echo it. Of course, rights are much more easily eroded when nobody exercises them.
 
2012-07-30 03:30:54 PM  
Don't they serve liquor in Colorado schools? That'd stop serial shooters in their tracks.
 
2012-07-30 03:31:44 PM  
Texas CHL laws require a business establishment to receive at least 51% of its income from alcohol sales before it is considered a place in which you cannot carry.

[PDF]
 
2012-07-30 03:31:49 PM  

Petit_Merdeux: JesseL: against their student with 10 minutes of training.

How much training is required for a CCW?


Depends on your state. In Colorado it's an all day class or previous experience (former police officer or military). While there is no range requirement in the law, most places that offer the instruction require it to pass their class.
 
2012-07-30 03:32:13 PM  
Never, in the history of mas shootings, has an armed civilian or intended victim altered the outcome of a mass shooting.

Never. Never. Never.

Got it?
Good.
 
2012-07-30 03:33:04 PM  

PsyLord: IIRC, Nightline did a little simulation shortly after the VTech shooting where they gave a few students in a classroom a paint pellet gun and told them that someone was going to come in and start blasting. Even with the warning, the students ended up either not getting a shot off before being shot themselves or shooting innocent students that got in their line of sight.


It's cute how you seemed to buy that as legit.
 
2012-07-30 03:33:44 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Never, in the history of mas shootings, has an armed civilian or intended victim altered the outcome of a mass shooting.

Never. Never. Never.

Got it?
Good.


Well shiat. If you said it, it must be true.

You do realize you're completely full of shiat, right?
 
2012-07-30 03:33:49 PM  

JesseL: Petit_Merdeux: JesseL: against their student with 10 minutes of training.

How much training is required for a CCW?

Depends on the state. When I got mine it was 16 hours.



No training here in Washington....just the background check, fingerprinting, and $55 fee.
 
2012-07-30 03:33:51 PM  

Petit_Merdeux: JesseL: against their student with 10 minutes of training.

How much training is required for a CCW?


You really don't want to know.
 
2012-07-30 03:34:00 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Never. Never. Never.


I'm positive that isn't true. I think there was a church shooting where someone shot the guy
 
2012-07-30 03:34:03 PM  

Brubold: I've not been given even one example of it happening and I would that that odds are that it's happened at some point. Apparently it's been so infrequently that there's nothing much to find though.


very, very weak strawman. It's rare for someone to be carrying, and extremely exceptionally rare for someone to open fire on a group of people. There are so exceptionally few times when the two things overlap/coincide, that it is irrelevant as a counter to any argument suggesting deaths would be fewer were there armed bystanders nearby. Add to the lack of overlap that the places where mass shootings take place tend to be places where it isn't legal to carry in most areas. Schools, churches, post offices...

Speaking of armed bystanders...try doing a google search for "armed bystander" and a few things do turn up. A girl saved in Athens, GA a few weeks ago, as an example. Just what was it you were using to do your search, praytell?
 
2012-07-30 03:34:43 PM  

justanotherfarkinfarker: HotIgneous Intruder: Never. Never. Never.

I'm positive that isn't true. I think there was a church shooting where someone shot the guy


Well, there's one.

Once, once, once.
 
2012-07-30 03:35:58 PM  

joonyer: HotIgneous Intruder: Never, in the history of mas shootings, has an armed civilian or intended victim altered the outcome of a mass shooting.

Never. Never. Never.

Got it?
Good.

Well shiat. If you said it, it must be true.

You do realize you're completely full of shiat, right?


Ah, it's the old "You're full of shiat" intellectual gambit.
I bow to your magnificence, sir.
 
2012-07-30 03:36:14 PM  

Farkin_Crazy: Can someone point me to an instance where somebody packin' saved dozens of people by taking the shooter out?


emotibot.net
 
2012-07-30 03:36:47 PM  

IamAwake: Brubold: I've not been given even one example of it happening and I would that that odds are that it's happened at some point. Apparently it's been so infrequently that there's nothing much to find though.

very, very weak strawman. It's rare for someone to be carrying, and extremely exceptionally rare for someone to open fire on a group of people. There are so exceptionally few times when the two things overlap/coincide, that it is irrelevant as a counter to any argument suggesting deaths would be fewer were there armed bystanders nearby. Add to the lack of overlap that the places where mass shootings take place tend to be places where it isn't legal to carry in most areas. Schools, churches, post offices...

Speaking of armed bystanders...try doing a google search for "armed bystander" and a few things do turn up. A girl saved in Athens, GA a few weeks ago, as an example. Just what was it you were using to do your search, praytell?


Praytell sounds like a great name for a search engine.
 
2012-07-30 03:37:34 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: joonyer: HotIgneous Intruder: Never, in the history of mas shootings, has an armed civilian or intended victim altered the outcome of a mass shooting.

Never. Never. Never.

Got it?
Good.

Well shiat. If you said it, it must be true.

You do realize you're completely full of shiat, right?

Ah, it's the old "You're full of shiat" intellectual gambit.
I bow to your magnificence, sir.


Hey, you're the one making the completely unsubstantiated claim(with a heavy dose of hyperbole), not me.
 
2012-07-30 03:37:43 PM  

moops


Bathia_Mapes: Oh, great. His last name is "Mapes". :/

No, it's not. His last name clearly reads "moops".


Mapes moots moops, mopes
 
2012-07-30 03:37:59 PM  

joonyer: If your life is threatened by a holstered pistol, then my life is threatened by a parked car.


That is a stupid statement. Absolutely stupid. Handguns were made for killin' - they ain't no good for nothin' else. Cars, on the other hand, are made for transporting. If you're doing anything other than killing a human being with a handgun (anything proper, at least) you are merely practicing so as to be more effective at killing a human with a handgun. Almost all cars, on the other hand, completely fulfill their purpose for their entire serviceable lifetimes, without ever killing someone.
 
2012-07-30 03:38:18 PM  

Brubold: Farkin_Crazy: From his own letter to the editor:

Just one concealed-weapon holder in a classroom where a random criminal attempts to shoot the occupants could and would reduce the casualties, as they would either take out the offender or at least distract them while others managed to get distance from the shooter.

Can someone point me to an instance where somebody packin' saved dozens of people by taking the shooter out?

I'm not saying you did this but one of the main arguments I heard against open carry laws after the Aurora shooting was that other people with firearms in that theater wouldn't have done anything but cause more casualties in a crossfire with the d-bag shooter. Can anyone point me to a case where an armed citizen shot innocent bystanders while trying to stop an armed crook? I've not been given even one example of it happening and I would that that odds are that it's happened at some point. Apparently it's been so infrequently that there's nothing much to find though.


When I've made the innocent bystanders argument at other sites, it's not because I'm arguing against CCW or open-carry laws. I just don't think they're the panacea that some have argued. I've seen the argument "If only the theater didn't ban concealed weapons! It would have been different." Really? He had the element of surprise, tear gas, darkness, and very powerful weapon. Would a guy with a handgun really have been able to orient himself and accurately fire through a crowd before getting taken out himself? Or before a dozen people have already been taken down? Especially since a Thursday midnight showing doesn't seem to draw a demographic that'd have much gun training.

I believe CCW laws have saved lives, but think we have to be realistic about how much it can do to prevent these situations.
 
2012-07-30 03:38:44 PM  

IamAwake: joonyer: If your life is threatened by a holstered pistol, then my life is threatened by a parked car.

That is a stupid statement. Absolutely stupid. Handguns were made for killin' - they ain't no good for nothin' else. Cars, on the other hand, are made for transporting. If you're doing anything other than killing a human being with a handgun (anything proper, at least) you are merely practicing so as to be more effective at killing a human with a handgun. Almost all cars, on the other hand, completely fulfill their purpose for their entire serviceable lifetimes, without ever killing someone.


You can hunt with handguns too
 
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