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(Bloomberg)   Interest rates are so low, investors are actually losing money by just parking their cash. Bonus: Losses tied to consumers paying off their debt and not paying interest   (bloomberg.com) divider line 99
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3484 clicks; posted to Business » on 30 Jul 2012 at 3:35 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-30 12:19:43 PM
I know this farking sucks, it's hard to find a conservative investment that keeps up with inflation in this day and age.
 
2012-07-30 03:46:50 PM
In fact, right now if you look at the returns on US Treasuries as compared to the rate of inflation, you realize that people are actually paying US to let us borrow money from them.

(which if you understand economics, means this is an INSANE time to be cutting government spending. We should be borrowing like Banshees for long term infrastructure projects and to create jobs because we'll never be able to get the money for them this cheaply ever again.)
 
2012-07-30 03:50:29 PM

brap: I know this farking sucks, it's hard to find a conservative investment that keeps up with inflation in this day and age.


Well, there's always gold.
 
2012-07-30 04:02:28 PM

Famous Thamas: brap: I know this farking sucks, it's hard to find a conservative investment that keeps up with inflation in this day and age.

Well, there's always gold.


Nah. The ads on the talk radio station have moved on to silver.
 
2012-07-30 04:05:20 PM

brap: I know this farking sucks, it's hard to find a conservative investment that keeps up with inflation in this day and age.


Why is this a bad thing? Isn't it a bad thing when too much capital is kept safe rather than being spent or devoted to productive investments? Some would say that safe conservative investments are not productive, that they inherently tend toward rent extraction.
 
2012-07-30 04:06:13 PM

Famous Thamas: brap: I know this farking sucks, it's hard to find a conservative investment that keeps up with inflation in this day and age.

Well, there's always gold.


I prefer unobtainium.
 
2012-07-30 04:10:07 PM
Paid off all of my debts about two years ago, except for a car payment. Got another year or so to go on that. Being debt free is magical, and the banks can go F themselves. I'll never pay interest again if I can help it. I know that's not possible if I intend to buy a house, but that's a choice I guess I'll make later on in life. For now, I'm a happy renter.
 
2012-07-30 04:26:28 PM

Magorn: which if you understand economics, means this is an INSANE time to be cutting government spending.


Not when you consider that we 'never' pay off this debt and only roll them over. When interest rates normalize and this debt is rolled over into new debt, the shiat will hit the fan.

Think of it more as a temporary 0% credit card that you have no ability to repay and which resets in a few years. A couple years of easy livin' and then you will have hell to pay.

The CBO/GAO has an estimate called the Alternative Baseline that goes over this and is very troubling.
 
2012-07-30 04:28:29 PM

brap: I know this farking sucks, it's hard to find a conservative investment that keeps up with inflation in this day and age.


You need some TIPS?
 
2012-07-30 04:36:16 PM

dchurch0: Paid off all of my debts about two years ago, except for a car payment. Got another year or so to go on that. Being debt free is magical, and the banks can go F themselves. I'll never pay interest again if I can help it. I know that's not possible if I intend to buy a house, but that's a choice I guess I'll make later on in life. For now, I'm a happy renter.


Just finished paying off my student loans about a week ago. No debt except for the mortgage. It feels great
 
2012-07-30 04:38:35 PM

Arkanaut: brap: I know this farking sucks, it's hard to find a conservative investment that keeps up with inflation in this day and age.

You need some TIPS?


Ohhhh, you can't bring up TIPS here. Some FARK Economist will spout on for 3 pages about how CPI isn't really the correct measure of inflation because gas and cigarettes went up by even MOAR!
 
2012-07-30 05:05:26 PM

HeadLever: dchurch0: Paid off all of my debts about two years ago, except for a car payment. Got another year or so to go on that. Being debt free is magical, and the banks can go F themselves. I'll never pay interest again if I can help it. I know that's not possible if I intend to buy a house, but that's a choice I guess I'll make later on in life. For now, I'm a happy renter.

Just finished paying off my student loans about a week ago. No debt except for the mortgage. It feels great


I don't know about you, but I went debt free about 5 years ago and I suddenly have more money then I know what to do with. This year I took my nephews to Disney just because I could.
 
2012-07-30 05:10:19 PM

Slaves2Darkness: HeadLever: dchurch0: Paid off all of my debts about two years ago, except for a car payment. Got another year or so to go on that. Being debt free is magical, and the banks can go F themselves. I'll never pay interest again if I can help it. I know that's not possible if I intend to buy a house, but that's a choice I guess I'll make later on in life. For now, I'm a happy renter.

Just finished paying off my student loans about a week ago. No debt except for the mortgage. It feels great

I don't know about you, but I went debt free about 5 years ago and I suddenly have more money then I know what to do with. This year I took my nephews to Disney just because I could.


I paid off my student loans 2 years ago and it is nice seeing my savings account grow fatter with every paycheck.

/Only debt is my 15-year fixed-rate mortgage @ 2.98%
 
2012-07-30 05:14:36 PM

HeadLever: Magorn: which if you understand economics, means this is an INSANE time to be cutting government spending.

Not when you consider that we 'never' pay off this debt and only roll them over. When interest rates normalize and this debt is rolled over into new debt, the shiat will hit the fan.

Think of it more as a temporary 0% credit card that you have no ability to repay and which resets in a few years. A couple years of easy livin' and then you will have hell to pay.

The CBO/GAO has an estimate called the Alternative Baseline that goes over this and is very troubling.


Exactly. Borrowing now to refinance existing debt or to fund capital projects is fine, but borrowing unlimited amounts of 5 year paper to fund current operating deficits is great until you have to refinance it in 5 years at whatever rates are then.
 
2012-07-30 05:18:27 PM
I see this is the thread where we smugly brag about being debt free instead of commenting on the actual topic of the article.

Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment. It's really not that complicated, but apparently your liberal arts degree didn't cover that.
 
2012-07-30 05:21:41 PM

Slaves2Darkness: I don't know about you, but I went debt free about 5 years ago and I suddenly have more money then I know what to do with.


I am always open to donations :)

Yeah, in all seriousness it is nice to know that the money you spend acutally goes for goods and not just paying some bank somewhere interest. If you really want to stick it to the banks, stay out of debt.

/You are an awesome Aunt/Uncle
 
2012-07-30 05:22:03 PM
I paid for my truck-boat-truck with cash and my mortgage is actually -0.3% which means the bank pays me every month to not pay my mortgage. Suck it.
 
2012-07-30 05:24:58 PM
Debt is dumb, cash is king, and the payed off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the new status symbol of choice.
 
2012-07-30 05:25:08 PM

Magorn: which if you understand economics, means this is an INSANE time to

not be cutting government spending.

FTFY

If you understood economics, you would realize that the ONLY cure for a bubble is for it to pop. Adding massive debt to a problem caused by massive debt can't fix the problem, because your prosperity is a debt-fueled illusion and that no matter how good your economy looks, you will never be in a position to pay the debt back without bringing down the whole house of cards. 1946 saw one of the best year-over-year increases in Americans' standard of living. The cause was the end of WW2 and the termination of millions, if not tens of millions, of defense-related jobs.
 
2012-07-30 05:28:42 PM

thompsonius: I see this is the thread where we smugly brag about being debt free instead of commenting on the actual topic of the article.

Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment. It's really not that complicated, but apparently your liberal arts degree didn't cover that.


That's why the stock market exists - lots of (relatively) safe long-term options there.
 
2012-07-30 05:29:52 PM

thompsonius: I see this is the thread where we smugly brag about being debt free instead of commenting on the actual topic of the article.

Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment. It's really not that complicated, but apparently your liberal arts degree didn't cover that.


I doubt that any of the debt-free farkers are stuffing cash into mattresses. Other than a car payment and 10% of my limit on credit cards (zero balances are not as good for your credit rating), I'm also debt free, but, unlike dchurch0, I don't have a mortgage because mine is paid off.
 
2012-07-30 05:29:59 PM

thompsonius: Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment.


Not near as negitive as shelling out payments to the credit card companies/banks where 1/2 the payment is interest.

You wnat a negative ROI? Hard to beat that one.
 
2012-07-30 05:35:11 PM
I for one would like to thank BoA for that stunning 0.35% interest rate I'm earning on my money market this month.

/it's not just them, all money markets blow right now
 
2012-07-30 05:40:26 PM

HeadLever: thompsonius: Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment.

Not near as negitive as shelling out payments to the credit card companies/banks where 1/2 the payment is interest.

You wnat a negative ROI? Hard to beat that one.


For negative ROI, it is pretty damn hard to beat borrowing $25000 at 30 points of vig from Vinny down in red hook so you can roll that loan into scratch tickets.

END COMMUNICATION
 
2012-07-30 05:49:35 PM

WhiskeySticks: Debt is dumb, cash is king, and the payed off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the new status symbol of choice.


Cue Gerry Raferty's Baker Street
 
2012-07-30 05:49:50 PM

Slaves2Darkness: HeadLever: dchurch0: Paid off all of my debts about two years ago, except for a car payment. Got another year or so to go on that. Being debt free is magical, and the banks can go F themselves. I'll never pay interest again if I can help it. I know that's not possible if I intend to buy a house, but that's a choice I guess I'll make later on in life. For now, I'm a happy renter.

Just finished paying off my student loans about a week ago. No debt except for the mortgage. It feels great

I don't know about you, but I went debt free about 5 years ago and I suddenly have more money then I know what to do with. This year I took my nephews to Disney just because I could.


You're doing it right.
 
2012-07-30 06:06:57 PM

dchurch0: Paid off all of my debts about two years ago


I paid off my last credit card this month. I can't believe how much better life is only having to worry about rent, utilities and groceries. I was like "Thank God, no more being a slave to creditors".

thompsonius: Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment. It's really not that complicated, but apparently your liberal arts degree didn't cover that.


Hmmm...you sound like someone either suffering from crippling debt or someone who works in the financial field that's upset that people won't fork over all their money to you. I'd rather have cash in the bank to buy things with than to purchase stuff on credit and get cornholed with the interest.
 
2012-07-30 06:08:34 PM

dustman81: WhiskeySticks: Debt is dumb, cash is king, and the payed off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the new status symbol of choice.

Cue Gerry Raferty's Baker Street


It is handy when you don't have any mortgages to pay off. The only payment I have is property tax and maintenance/utilities and I am sorted.

Of course cash is not always king when the money market crashes and that cash it worth dirt. If only we didn't avoid infrastructure upgrades for 60 years we would probably be in a good situation.
 
2012-07-30 06:14:45 PM

WhiskeySticks: Debt is dumb, cash is king, and the payed off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the new status symbol of choice.


Dave Ramsey, is that you?
 
2012-07-30 06:16:08 PM
With interest rates being so low, I decided to pull some money out of my house on a refinance, installing a fairly large solar array and battery system.

With a 15-yr 3.15% refi, along with all the current incentives available from the Feds and State, the PV array pays off in 6.5 years - with the monthly savings more than covering the 1st month amount of interest paid to the bank.

/Money (and energy) for nothing
//and my checks for free
 
2012-07-30 06:19:21 PM

PacManDreaming: dchurch0: Paid off all of my debts about two years ago

I paid off my last credit card this month. I can't believe how much better life is only having to worry about rent, utilities and groceries. I was like "Thank God, no more being a slave to creditors".

thompsonius: Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment. It's really not that complicated, but apparently your liberal arts degree didn't cover that.

Hmmm...you sound like someone either suffering from crippling debt or someone who works in the financial field that's upset that people won't fork over all their money to you. I'd rather have cash in the bank to buy things with than to purchase stuff on credit and get cornholed with the interest.


The borrower is slave to the lender. More and more people are realizing that and are telling the banks to get bent.

I like having money in this thing called an "emergency fund" so when I have an emergency, I don't have to beg the banks for money. One nice side effect of having an emergency fund is that you can sleep better at night.
 
2012-07-30 06:22:56 PM

DrPainMD: thompsonius: I see this is the thread where we smugly brag about being debt free instead of commenting on the actual topic of the article.

Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment. It's really not that complicated, but apparently your liberal arts degree didn't cover that.

I doubt that any of the debt-free farkers are stuffing cash into mattresses. Other than a car payment and 10% of my limit on credit cards (zero balances are not as good for your credit rating), I'm also debt free, but, unlike dchurch0, I don't have a mortgage because mine is paid off.


Congrats on paying your mortgage off. That would be very nice.

To be honest, I would have a mortgage if I could. I went thru a crappy divorce a few years ago. We had a house, which I had to sell in order to move for the job I currently have. This was in 2009, and it wound up being a short sale, so my credit is far from perfect. Top it all off with the fact that the ex stopped paying her car payment, which had my name on it. I paid off the bad debt to stop it from getting repo'd, took the car back, and traded it in on what I have now.

I can't qualify for a mortgage right now. So I took the extra money I had coming in and opened a Roth IRA and am maxxing it out. I'm also throwing about $1000 in savings every month and spending the leftovers. I've got a nice Traeger grill, lots of brewing equipment, a website I'm playing around with as a hobby, and a DayZ server that I pay for. I couldn't have done any of these things a few years ago. It's just nice to be able to have spending money again.

I'm hoping to build up a nice chunk of cash and put 50% down when I decide to buy. If I can do that and get a 15 year mortgage, I think I'll be OK.
 
2012-07-30 06:25:16 PM

detroitdoesntsuckthatbad: I for one would like to thank BoA for that stunning 0.35% interest rate I'm earning on my money market this month.


Bank of America lost me as a customer forever as soon as my car loan was paid off. Every month(no exaggeration) for that last eight months of my loan, every time I made my car loan payment, they would send me nasty letters saying that I hadn't made the payment. And every month, I'd have to go to my bank and get a copy of the cancelled check to show them that, yes, I had made my payment.

It seems that they were taking my check and applying it to a BoA credit card, even though my check was submitted with the loan account number written on it AND with the actual statement slip.

The problem with all of that is I DIDN'T HAVE A CREDIT CARD WITH THEM. It's like they just made one up for me and started sticking my car loan payments on it. I was probably the only BoA customer with a positive balance on his credit card.

Needless to say, I haven't set foot in there in almost four years. And Lord willing, I never will again.
 
2012-07-30 06:54:50 PM

limeyfellow: Of course cash is not always king when the money market crashes and that cash it worth dirt. If only we didn't avoid infrastructure upgrades for 60 years


Then what the hell has the federal government been doing with gasoline tax revenues?
 
2012-07-30 07:04:36 PM

o5iiawah: Then what the hell has the federal government been doing with gasoline tax revenues?


I'm guessing they were forking over billions of dollars in subsidies to the oil companies with it.
 
2012-07-30 07:07:36 PM

dustman81: The borrower is slave to the lender.


Dumbest thing I've read today.

Yes, because slaves were able to simply walk away from their owners any time they wished...

Hint: You never actually have to pay anything back. Just don't expect to borrow anything ever again. Worst they can do is take back the collateral and attempt (and often fail) to have any future reported wages garnished. Disobedience toward a slave master was a death sentence. Disobedience toward a creditor is an inconvenience.

/don't have a whole hell of a lot of debt
//could liquidate tomorrow and have cash in pocket
///prefer to keep my stuff
 
2012-07-30 07:19:34 PM

Kuroshin: dustman81: The borrower is slave to the lender.

Dumbest thing I've read today.

Yes, because slaves were able to simply walk away from their owners any time they wished...

Hint: You never actually have to pay anything back. Just don't expect to borrow anything ever again. Worst they can do is take back the collateral and attempt (and often fail) to have any future reported wages garnished. Disobedience toward a slave master was a death sentence. Disobedience toward a creditor is an inconvenience.

/don't have a whole hell of a lot of debt
//could liquidate tomorrow and have cash in pocket
///prefer to keep my stuff


Tell that to those who have to dodge collector calls and get summonses that they are being sued. Tell that to those who lose their security clearance due to poor credit. Tell that to those who are denied jobs and housing due to poor credit.
 
2012-07-30 07:19:54 PM
I'm sure there's a fee or two that will remedy the situation for them.
 
2012-07-30 07:48:37 PM

DrPainMD: If you understood economics, you would realize that the ONLY cure for a bubble is for it to pop. Adding massive debt to a problem caused by massive debt can't fix the problem, because your prosperity is a debt-fueled illusion and that no matter how good your economy looks, you will never be in a position to pay the debt back without bringing down the whole house of cards. 1946 saw one of the best year-over-year increases in Americans' standard of living. The cause was the end of WW2 and the termination of millions, if not tens of millions, of defense-related jobs.


I'm just curious, do you have a source about this year-over-year increase in standard of living? Economically we normally quantify that through the per capita GDP of a country. The U.S. GDP per capita actually fell (according to both the BLS and Angus Maddison's historical GDP index) in 1946 by quite a bit while also being hit with an 8.5% inflation rate from the ratcheting down of WWII price controls. This doesn't seem to jive with your story, so I'd like to know where you got your information from. Thanks.
 
2012-07-30 07:48:43 PM
Bad USA. BAD!!

Now go and consume so we can prop up our economy with unsustainable growth and pray we outlast China for the Sarbanes-Oxley championship.
 
2012-07-30 07:52:12 PM

Kuroshin:
Hint: You never actually have to pay anything back. Just don't expect to borrow anything ever again. Worst they can do is take back the collateral and attempt (and often fail) to have any future reported wages garnished.


Depends who you borrow from. Banks and the like are pretty much limited to repossession and seizing collateral, maybe garneshing a pay cheque. But people who are late paying back Vinny in red hook tend to have accidents.

END COMMUNICATION
 
kab
2012-07-30 07:53:14 PM

thompsonius: Side note to debt free smugsters - hoarding your cash is a negative investment. It's really not that complicated, but apparently your liberal arts degree didn't cover that.


And dumbest post of the year award goes to....
 
2012-07-30 07:59:35 PM
I've been offered a couple of credit cards with 12-18 months of zero interest on balance transfers AND purchases. Over the last two years, I've probably purchased upwards of $10,000 and stretched the payments out for months while not paying a dime in interest. New Mac Pro, new DSLR, weeklong trip to Vegas. It's awesome. If it's also jamming a dick up the ass of the 1%, then it's time for a new Macbook Air and a trip to the local VIP room!
 
2012-07-30 08:13:43 PM
Debt is a tool, used to obtain something that is more valuable for you to have now instead of later.

Getting debt for other purposes is either financially short sighted or you love "risk" type behaviour without the associated rewards.
 
2012-07-30 08:17:22 PM

dustman81: Kuroshin: dustman81: The borrower is slave to the lender.

Dumbest thing I've read today.

Yes, because slaves were able to simply walk away from their owners any time they wished...

Hint: You never actually have to pay anything back. Just don't expect to borrow anything ever again. Worst they can do is take back the collateral and attempt (and often fail) to have any future reported wages garnished. Disobedience toward a slave master was a death sentence. Disobedience toward a creditor is an inconvenience.

/don't have a whole hell of a lot of debt
//could liquidate tomorrow and have cash in pocket
///prefer to keep my stuff

Tell that to those who have to dodge collector calls and get summonses that they are being sued. Tell that to those who lose their security clearance due to poor credit. Tell that to those who are denied jobs and housing due to poor credit.


Just like the whipping, burning, rape, outright murder, and horrific torture faced by slaves, right? Douche.
 
2012-07-30 08:27:41 PM

WhiskeySticks: Debt is dumb, cash is king, and the payed off home mortgage has taken the place of the BMW as the new status symbol of choice.


ha HAH
5 months and I am FREE FREE FREE
 
kab
2012-07-30 08:31:55 PM

Great_Milenko: I've been offered a couple of credit cards with 12-18 months of zero interest on balance transfers AND purchases. Over the last two years, I've probably purchased upwards of $10,000 and stretched the payments out for months while not paying a dime in interest. New Mac Pro, new DSLR, weeklong trip to Vegas. It's awesome. If it's also jamming a dick up the ass of the 1%, then it's time for a new Macbook Air and a trip to the local VIP room!


Make sure to thank someone who's paying interest (or cash) for enabling cards like this to exist.
 
kab
2012-07-30 08:32:44 PM

YixilTesiphon: Just like the whipping, burning, rape, outright murder, and horrific torture faced by slaves, right? Douche.


Because 'that' is the only form and definition of slavery, amirite?
 
2012-07-30 08:34:41 PM

PacManDreaming: o5iiawah: Then what the hell has the federal government been doing with gasoline tax revenues?

I'm guessing they were forking over billions of dollars in subsidies to the oil companies with it.


Oil companies dont get subsidies. This is the biggest lie out there today. The biggest profiteer off the oil industry is the US government who nary has to lift a shovel to reap billions of dollars each year. Oil companies pay not only billions in corporate income tax but the government also gets a piece of the gas tax. More billions. The couple of billion that oil companies get to write off as a loss or operation expense is not "welfare" nor does it come out of the pockets of taxpayers. It simply reduces their liability unless of course, you believe that 100% of oil company profits are property of the collective.

If I make $50k and donate $1k to charity, I have reduced my tax liability by that amount and now pay tax on the $49k. I did not get a handout from government and it did not cost anybody any money to provide this. No taxpayer is providing me a "subsidy" to support a charity. I'm still paying taxes. So are the oil companies.

So you're wrong.
 
2012-07-30 08:48:49 PM

o5iiawah: PacManDreaming: o5iiawah: Then what the hell has the federal government been doing with gasoline tax revenues?

I'm guessing they were forking over billions of dollars in subsidies to the oil companies with it.

Oil companies dont get subsidies. This is the biggest lie out there today. The biggest profiteer off the oil industry is the US government who nary has to lift a shovel to reap billions of dollars each year. Oil companies pay not only billions in corporate income tax but the government also gets a piece of the gas tax. More billions. The couple of billion that oil companies get to write off as a loss or operation expense is not "welfare" nor does it come out of the pockets of taxpayers. It simply reduces their liability unless of course, you believe that 100% of oil company profits are property of the collective.

If I make $50k and donate $1k to charity, I have reduced my tax liability by that amount and now pay tax on the $49k. I did not get a handout from government and it did not cost anybody any money to provide this. No taxpayer is providing me a "subsidy" to support a charity. I'm still paying taxes. So are the oil companies.

So you're wrong.


It's true that they don't get paid a direct subsidy. They do get tax credits, a whole boatload of them. Fossil fuel companies receive $57 billion in tax credits, not counting the 15.3 that comes from foreign exemptions so long as the money stays overseas (all corporations have this opportunity, so it would be unfair to count that as an energy only tax credit).

If interested, a good overview of energy taxation policy can be found here:

Link
 
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