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(Some Guy)   Blogger determines how the Rmoney IRA got to be so huge   (crossspeak.blogspot.com) divider line 39
    More: Interesting, Roth IRAs, Rmoney IRA, United States Department of the Treasury, tax shelters, u.s. taxes, Swiss bank accounts  
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6077 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jul 2012 at 6:01 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-29 02:06:05 PM  
6 votes:
There it is. Better than I've seen anyone explain it. That is exactly what he did. Any man who seeks to avoid paying his taxes in such a manner forfeits his right to lead the country and be in charge of collecting said taxes.

It's legal, that's fine. He keeps the money, he just doesn't get the White House as well. It's an either or thing, you can't have both.
2012-07-29 03:38:22 PM  
4 votes:

Bontesla: That's probably the best explanation I've heard yet.
Wow.

I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.



Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. He has always been a spoiled rich kid. He has always been given everything he wanted. Nobody has ever said "no" to him. Ever. In his entire life.

He honestly believes that he is entitled to the Presidency just for being Mitt Romney. It simply does not occur to people like Romney that the world doesn't owe him anything, because he has never encountered a situation where he didn't get everything he wanted.
2012-07-29 06:24:50 PM  
3 votes:
2008-10-20 09:42:03 PM
401k

... So you mean that when you looked at the evidence, you found out that the person who did the best was making 48 percent in a quarter and the person who was doing the worst was losing 9 percent a quarter.


Yes, that's correct.

That's big a gap.


It was stunning. I couldn't assimilate it. I didn't know how to think about it. It was far beyond anything I would have ever guessed.

And these are in the same 401(k) plan with the same investment options.

That's correct. ... They were all large plans with $100 million, $200 hundred dollars in the plan and 1,000, 2,000 participants or more. So these were big plans, and they were scattered geographically, some up East and some on the West Coast.

... So you're looking at the top performer and the bottom performer. That's individuals. But could you see a difference by categories?


Yes. ... So we decided to look at the top 20 percent and the bottom 20 percent. ... We saw the same thing over and over. ... Say the bottom 20 percent had an investment return for the year of 4 percent. The top 20 percent would be anywhere between five and seven times that number. ...

Like 30 percent?

Yeah, 30 percent right. ... I label[ed] this yield disparity. I just coined the term. I thought, we have a yield disparity that is a financial cancer in our great, beautiful 401(k) movement. I had never seen it before, but it was everywhere I looked.


What do you mean, a financial cancer?

It would destroy the opportunity for ordinary workers to retire in dignity. They couldn't get there from here. There is no way. Number one, they are contributing too little, too late for the most part. They are contributing the least, and then they are getting lousy investment performance. ...

But were your samples large enough for you to trust them?

Absolutely. I'm looking at 50,000 people in a population of maybe 30 million people in 401(k) plans at that time, ... scattered in every ZIP code in this country, so I knew that what I saw was real, and I found it frightening. ...


... So when you are looking at that concrete evidence of disparity in yield, is there any correlation between [investment income] and the kind of income and education people have?

I don't know about education, because it wasn't a data element in our database, but annual income was. Every client that we did this examination of, in every case, the 20 percent at the top not only had the highest investment income -- like 30 percent or whatever -- they also had the highest average annual pay, whereas the bottom 20 percent not only had the lowest investment income, four percent, they had the lowest average annual pay. And ... the people at the top 20 percent often were putting in less money as a percentage of pay ... because there was a limitation imposed by the law on what they could contribute, so it wasn't driven by the fact that they were putting in more. ...

Are you saying you found a correlation between the salary levels of people and their ability to manage their investment? Higher-paid people got better investment results and lower-paid people got worse?


That's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, it was the only correlation; there was no other.

So what you are saying is the best-paid people, the richest people are getting richer and the middle-class workers are falling further behind?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.



----
You're saying that the Department of Labor has numbers that [show that] back in 1974, companies were footing the bill for 89 percent, ... and 25 years later they're putting in 49 percent. So companies have saved 40 percent of their costs nationwide?

There has been a cost shifting of 40 percent from contributions made by the employer to contributions made by the employee.
2012-07-29 06:13:56 PM  
3 votes:
This motherfarker is constantly bleating about how he "did what was legally required". Dude, you are running for the highest office of the greatest country on earth. You are held to a higher standard than merely not being a criminal. And you have not met that standard--in fact, if the facts came out, you probably would end up having broken the law too.
2012-07-29 04:19:29 PM  
3 votes:
Only in America can a class of people buy laws and protection that keep them from paying taxes and when the rest of us cry foul we get accused of waging class warfare.

Why the fark do they care about socialism? They're not the ones paying for it.
2012-07-29 04:00:00 PM  
3 votes:
Wow. I'm also curious if his reason for not releasing his 2009 tax returns in particular is because he was part of the IRS' tax amnesty for Swiss account holders.
2012-07-29 08:04:33 PM  
2 votes:

Here's the one thing that I can't figure out, and it's driving me crazy.

Why the fark does he even want to be president?


He's already plundered the world for a good chunk of its wealth; he has no real interest in humanitarian or international affairs, and doesn't seem to handle criticism of his decisions very well. Where is the gain in becoming president? Even if he's just doing it to benefit the rest of the 1%, couldn't he do that just as effectively as a senior congressional lobbyist or PAC leader?
2012-07-29 06:41:37 PM  
2 votes:
That's too complicated. Haven't you all watched Romney during the campaign? He's stupid. Here is how it is actually done.

1) Bain Capital purchases a company and all its assets.
2) You (Romney) take no salary, however, you transfer the entire employee retirement fund to your own account within the company's existing retirement account as a substitute for compensation. You do that within the first month of Bain Capital's purchase. By IRS rules it must be done within the first month of ownership.
4) When the company fails you convert that retirement account into a lump sum payment to your own IRA account tax free.
5) Repeat.

This is the shiat Romney does not want disclosed by showing his tax returns.
2012-07-29 06:25:53 PM  
2 votes:
Newsweek mag story coming out calling him a wimp

Daily Beast story about the story

basically there's so much that he's trying to hide that he's running scared from all interviews

(plus his character failings)
2012-07-29 06:11:23 PM  
2 votes:

Nice concise sum up of how Mitt Romney's 100 million dollar IRA came into existence circumventing (albeit legally, apparently) regular person tax laws.

For extra fun points Mitt and his wife have already taken advantage of various incentives over the years to scape another 100 million together to make a trust fund for their 5 sons.

Tax Free.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Mitt Romney's five sons -- Matt, Tagg, Craig, Ben and Josh -- are sitting pretty with a trust fund worth $100 million.

Getting there took investments that produced great growth, according to the Romney campaign. It also took smart tax strategies.

Romney and his wife Ann have been giving to the boys since 1995, and, according to a spokesperson for the Romney campaign, all of their contributions have been below gift-tax contribution limits.

The limit for a couple in 1995 was $20,000 and has since grown to $26,000. In addition, there's a "lifetime gift-tax exclusion" for all the boys that totaled $1.2 million back in 1995 and has since grown to $10 million.

Add it all up, and the Romneys could have gifted $1.3 million in 1995, and a total of $10.6 million through 2011. All tax free.


Huzzah for "smart tax strategies".

Kinda makes the whole "death tax" argument a bit moot, don't it?

Anyone who thinks this man represents the American people's best interests and not the interests of a relatively tiny number of 1%ers like himself has not been paying the slightest bit of attention
2012-07-29 02:26:05 PM  
2 votes:
I'm not sure misrepresenting the market value of stocks and other securities for the purpose of reducing your tax burden is legal.
2012-07-30 02:49:29 AM  
1 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: This explanation is idiotic...

ftfa: " let's speculate that the per share fair market value of the stock was $50.00 but the owners got shares deposited into their accounts at $0.10. "

you have to report the fair market value, not some number that you make up.

if you could actually do this, why don't you report the fair market value of a stock when you sell it as the same price as when you bought it...voila! no capital gains tax.



That's a good point. With all the information we have there is only one reasonable conclusion: Mitt Romney has engaged in massive tax evasion, on purpose, and should be sentenced to about 20 years in prison. That's really the only way the stuff we know about his finances makes sense. The guy, his wife and his kids should all be in federal prison. Period. The amount of bullshiat they've done, all of which would be impossible to do on accident is utterly ridiculous.
2012-07-29 09:17:23 PM  
1 votes:

farkityfarker: Propain_az: If wealth is a marker for a potential President, then I guess Obama is out also.

/you people are farking morons.

Obama is worth 5-10 million, mainly from the profits of the books he wrote.

Romney is worth a quarter billion or so, mainly from inherited wealth and shady financial dealings.

False equivalency is very false.


This x [Mitt's total wealth]
2012-07-29 09:07:52 PM  
1 votes:

Dwight_Yeast: Because money only gets you so far, and power and prestige are a huge draw.

In Romney's case, he wants to do the one thing his father failed to do, thus proving (to himself, if no one else) that he's a better man than his father.

GW Bush's reasons were similar but more complex.


I know that third party candidates will never gain traction, and accept it. But it really is too bad. This country could benefit from an administration comprised of complete political outsiders. Instead, we're going to keep on being subjected to governors, congressmen, senators, and others in their dynastic circles.

Good thing we declared independence from Britain, especially that whole concept of inherited nobility.
2012-07-29 09:03:18 PM  
1 votes:

Delay: That's too complicated. Haven't you all watched Romney during the campaign? He's stupid. Here is how it is actually done.

1) Bain Capital purchases a company and all its assets.
2) You (Romney) take no salary, however, you transfer the entire employee retirement fund to your own account within the company's existing retirement account as a substitute for compensation. You do that within the first month of Bain Capital's purchase. By IRS rules it must be done within the first month of ownership.
4) When the company fails you convert that retirement account into a lump sum payment to your own IRA account tax free.
5) Repeat.

This is the shiat Romney does not want disclosed by showing his tax returns.


Look Mitt might be stupid socially, but financially he definitely knows how to game the system to the maximum extent. And if he were to gain the POTUS, he would only commence farking the rest of us even harder by creating more tax cuts for the wealthy who do not allow their wealth to trickle down, and who are not job creators. If they were, we'd all have farking jobs.
2012-07-29 08:55:08 PM  
1 votes:

hurdboy: //Have a sneaking suspicion that Bain Capital is the new Rose Law Firm


No.

Propain_az: If wealth is a marker for a potential President, then I guess Obama is out also.


I don't think you just said what you wanted to say.

Yes, Obama's a millionaire, but he didn't make that money buy doing anything morally reprehensible or by inheriting it; he wrote a book.

He's released over a decade's worth of tax returns, and he hasn't done anything to avoid paying tax on the money he's made. Further, once he took office, he started donating royalties from one (or both?) of his books to charity, so he's actually making less money by becoming president.

See the difference?
2012-07-29 08:54:52 PM  
1 votes:

Propain_az: If wealth is a marker for a potential President, then I guess Obama is out also.

/you people are farking morons.


Obama is worth 5-10 million, mainly from the profits of the books he wrote.

Romney is worth a quarter billion or so, mainly from inherited wealth and shady financial dealings.

False equivalency is very false.
2012-07-29 08:49:08 PM  
1 votes:
Mitt Romney is incredibly rich.
Water is wet.
Your blog sucks.
Ric will have details at 11.

//Have a sneaking suspicion that Bain Capital is the new Rose Law Firm
2012-07-29 08:24:35 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: He probably is one of those guys who lives his life to please what he believes his dad wants.


At the end of the Odyssey, Homer says something interesting about fathers and sons, which is along the lines of "most sons are not as great as their fathers"; great men cast long shadows, which is why men like Romney, Bush and McCain feel the need to become president.
2012-07-29 08:19:55 PM  
1 votes:

Dwight_Yeast: clkeagle: Corvus: EGO.

That's... what I was afraid of. Because I can't think of a worse reason to enter public service. Even at the highest level.

Ego is always the answer, even with someone like Obama. Our best presidents have run for the office out of a sense of civic duty and the hope to make the country a better place, but ego is always an important factor as well.

I heard a biographer talking about Obama, and they said something along the lines of, "Anyone who runs for PotUS has to be fundamentally psychologically broken, and Obama is no different."


Like I said above. THere are two different type things:

A) Because I feel I am great I can make these good changes.
B) Because I want to check off being president.

Both are "Big egos" but A you want as president not B and I think Romney is all B. If he wasn't B he would actually have a vision he can stick to.
2012-07-29 07:55:00 PM  
1 votes:
I've seen 'but it's legal' thrown around in this thread, and I feel that misses the point. The problem isn't legality, but of the Rich farking us over. And Romney is the poster child for that. His very presence is carte blanche to hit the Class Warfare angle constantly due to his outright stupidity, his shady 'business' past, and how the Republicans are now throwing money at someone who is there to push the only real Republican goal: to enrich the wealthy and fark everybody else.

The real question now is how the Republicans unfark themselves from this, and I don't think they can. Romney, in a way, is the best person they could have gone for and is the pinnacle of the Democratic dream candidate: he's Dubya Part 2, a retard with a silver spoon, showcasing how 'better' the Rich think they are from the rest of us. Romney steals pensions and livelihoods, and destroys everything so he can act superior to you. And the party that's running him don't give a shiat if all of us--even their retarded followers, blind to reality--die in our own shiat.

That's all you need to know about Romney and his Republican buddies. None of them deserve any better than to be impaled Cannibal Holocaust style.
2012-07-29 07:40:02 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: Neeek: Umm...what they describe in the article is not remotely legal. You cannot invest your retirement account money in a business you(or your spouse or your parents or your kids) own. It's a disallowed transaction.

Isn't owning the stock "owning the company"? I don't get what you are saying. How can you not invest in something you own. That is buying the stock..


Retirement accounts can be used to buy any number of investment vehicles. You just can't use them to buy anything from yourself. If you own a rental property, for example, you cannot sell the rental property to your retirement account, but you could use your retirement funds to buy the exact same property from me. Retirement accounts have special rules that govern how they can be spent.

Mitt was the sole shareholder in Bain. He could not legally invest his retirement account in Bain at all. Nor any company Bain owned more than half of.

The article is wrong on the maximum contribution, btw. It probably was a 401k that was transferred to an IRA when Romney left Bain. Thag would allow a much larger amount of capital, but the $100,000,000 is still utterly ridiculous.
2012-07-29 07:23:28 PM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: Corvus: In certain companies (Bain may be one of them), under-priced stocks were given to the owners and directly deposited into their IRA accounts. So let's say the $5000 limit on the IRA deposit was achieved by under-pricing these stocks by a huge amount.

Stock in Bain.

Corvus: The other possibility, Kleinbard suggested, was not dissimilar to what Maremont theorized: that Romney contributed limited-partnership interests in Bain's buyouts to his IRA. What was "quite troubling" to Kleinbard is that he suspected Romney may have contributed these interests to his IRA at a fraction of their market value -- "pennies on the dollar" -- and well below what he might have charged you or me. When the buyouts became successful, Kleinbard proposed, the pennies on the dollar were suddenly worth real dollars.

stock in companies Bain bought.

My article mentions SEP-IRA which raises the contribution limits a good deal.

They are not the same thing and you popped off in ignorance and now want to save face. Don't bother. You are already a laughingstock


THAT WAS FROM YOU ARTICLE RETARD!! I WAS QUOTING IT!! YOU DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE IT!
2012-07-29 07:14:57 PM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: A more likely explanation

The other possibility, Kleinbard suggested, was not dissimilar to what Maremont theorized: that Romney contributed limited-partnership interests in Bain's buyouts to his IRA. What was "quite troubling" to Kleinbard is that he suspected Romney may have contributed these interests to his IRA at a fraction of their market value -- "pennies on the dollar" -- and well below what he might have charged you or me. When the buyouts became successful, Kleinbard proposed, the pennies on the dollar were suddenly worth real dollars.


It's the same farking thing.
2012-07-29 07:10:58 PM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: A more likely explanation


Did you read that article?

Mark Maremont, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter at the Wall Street Journal (and a former classmate of mine at journalism school), has suggested that -- perfectly legally -- Romney contributed to his IRA using the low-basis, low-value stock he received as a partner at Bain Capital in the various buyouts the firm did while Romney was there.

The article states a likely way he did it is the same farking reason this article gave.
2012-07-29 06:59:00 PM  
1 votes:
Ask yourself a few questions.

Is it legal? - Yeah, it basically is.

Is it ethical? - fark no. It's despicable and shows an utter contempt for America.

Will the GOP base voters care? - Nope. One look at Facebook and you will see proof of this over and over.
2012-07-29 06:49:22 PM  
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: Sounds about right.

Remember when I said, during the early part of the Occupy movement, that nothing they were doing was illegal? Well, this is it in spades. Nothing Rmoney did here was illegal, except if he didn't put the amount of his IRA on his tax returns. Corporations can give their CEOs and other officers pro-rated stocks, or cheaper options if they like--it isn't illegal.

None of this is illegal, folks. It's shady and unethical...but it' s not against the law. It COULD be...but so far it isn't.


Running Romney during this political climate is just destined to highlight many economic inequality issues we have in the US.

I feel like bizarro world, where we have a mild GOP person running for the dems, and a laboratory created strawman, designed to underscore issues of economic inequality.
2012-07-29 06:31:13 PM  
1 votes:
What's hysterical is that he doesn't even need to release his taxes... he's got a $5K/yr IRA worth $100 million, so clearly he must have done something sneaky, if not illegal. It's like a huge sh*t in the middle of the living room... I don't need to see the technical history and paperwork on this one, the fact remains that there's still a huge sh*t on the floor.
2012-07-29 06:31:06 PM  
1 votes:

Dwight_Yeast: The cap on IRA contributions is absolute; there's no other way for the money to have gotten there.


He could have gotten really REALLY REALLY good returns because he's such a shrewd investor. Of course, if you can get an eleventy-thousand-percent returns on your investments, maybe you have better things to do than run for president.
2012-07-29 06:25:46 PM  
1 votes:
Mitt Romney: Chode.
2012-07-29 06:24:36 PM  
1 votes:
If the speculation is true, he'd be a hero for screwing the government, right?
2012-07-29 06:13:53 PM  
1 votes:

quatchi: Mitt Romney's five sons -- Matt, Tagg, Craig, Ben and Josh -- are sitting pretty with a trust fund worth $100 million.


Mitt sure has some hard-working bootstrappy boys!
2012-07-29 06:10:45 PM  
1 votes:
When do we remember how America was founded and start shooting these Tories in their faces?
2012-07-29 06:09:47 PM  
1 votes:
This is the perfect response when someone asks "Why should Romney have to release his tax returns? It's not required, the way a birth certificate is".

Why should he release them? Because he found a way to invest 5 grand a year for something like a 1000% annual increase. fark the presidency - I want to know how to do that myself for just on general principles.
2012-07-29 06:04:26 PM  
1 votes:

Bontesla: I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.


At this point I'm convinced he just figured he'd walk into the WH because he deserves it, and all the peons will recognize that he's the rightful heir to the throne.
2012-07-29 04:49:38 PM  
1 votes:
Huh. Interesting way to get around that.

Time to find a way to plug that hole.
2012-07-29 03:27:32 PM  
1 votes:
That is a brilliant scheme. It's so brilliant it should be illegal.

Even if Rmoney releases his tax forms the damage has already been done. The speculation over this is probably more damaging than the truth.
NFA [TotalFark]
2012-07-29 03:22:54 PM  
1 votes:

dr_blasto: I'm not sure misrepresenting the market value of stocks and other securities for the purpose of reducing your tax burden is legal.


If you were a small business owner and did this, you would eventually be looking out through the bars of a federal prison.
2012-07-29 02:52:46 PM  
1 votes:
That's probably the best explanation I've heard yet.
Wow.

I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.
 
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