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(Some Guy)   Blogger determines how the Rmoney IRA got to be so huge   (crossspeak.blogspot.com) divider line 234
    More: Interesting, Roth IRAs, Rmoney IRA, United States Department of the Treasury, tax shelters, u.s. taxes, Swiss bank accounts  
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6077 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Jul 2012 at 6:01 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-29 02:06:05 PM  
There it is. Better than I've seen anyone explain it. That is exactly what he did. Any man who seeks to avoid paying his taxes in such a manner forfeits his right to lead the country and be in charge of collecting said taxes.

It's legal, that's fine. He keeps the money, he just doesn't get the White House as well. It's an either or thing, you can't have both.
 
2012-07-29 02:26:05 PM  
I'm not sure misrepresenting the market value of stocks and other securities for the purpose of reducing your tax burden is legal.
 
2012-07-29 02:34:05 PM  
Really nice write up on the subject. And thoroughly stomach-turning.
 
2012-07-29 02:52:46 PM  
That's probably the best explanation I've heard yet.
Wow.

I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.
 
2012-07-29 03:02:26 PM  

dr_blasto: I'm not sure misrepresenting the market value of stocks and other securities for the purpose of reducing your tax burden is legal.


Of course it is! That's why the super rich do it!
 
2012-07-29 03:03:47 PM  

Lsherm: dr_blasto: I'm not sure misrepresenting the market value of stocks and other securities for the purpose of reducing your tax burden is legal.

Of course it is! That's why the super rich do it!


Hehe. Regulating the super rich?
That's hysterical.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2012-07-29 03:22:54 PM  

dr_blasto: I'm not sure misrepresenting the market value of stocks and other securities for the purpose of reducing your tax burden is legal.


If you were a small business owner and did this, you would eventually be looking out through the bars of a federal prison.
 
2012-07-29 03:26:01 PM  

NFA: dr_blasto: I'm not sure misrepresenting the market value of stocks and other securities for the purpose of reducing your tax burden is legal.

If you were a small business owner and did this, you would eventually be looking out through the bars of a federal prison.


And Rmoney may walk away with this retirement fortune (which he can add to his other types of fortunes).
 
2012-07-29 03:27:32 PM  
That is a brilliant scheme. It's so brilliant it should be illegal.

Even if Rmoney releases his tax forms the damage has already been done. The speculation over this is probably more damaging than the truth.
 
2012-07-29 03:34:37 PM  

Pope Larry II: That is a brilliant scheme. It's so brilliant it should be illegal.

Even if Rmoney releases his tax forms the damage has already been done. The speculation over this is probably more damaging than the truth.


If it weren't my nap time, I'd probably rage more. . .

I just can't believe he's almost so close to getting away with it. If nothing else - I'd love to see an official explanation.
 
2012-07-29 03:38:22 PM  

Bontesla: That's probably the best explanation I've heard yet.
Wow.

I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.



Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. He has always been a spoiled rich kid. He has always been given everything he wanted. Nobody has ever said "no" to him. Ever. In his entire life.

He honestly believes that he is entitled to the Presidency just for being Mitt Romney. It simply does not occur to people like Romney that the world doesn't owe him anything, because he has never encountered a situation where he didn't get everything he wanted.
 
2012-07-29 03:43:04 PM  

FloydA: Bontesla: That's probably the best explanation I've heard yet.
Wow.

I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.


Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. He has always been a spoiled rich kid. He has always been given everything he wanted. Nobody has ever said "no" to him. Ever. In his entire life.

He honestly believes that he is entitled to the Presidency just for being Mitt Romney. It simply does not occur to people like Romney that the world doesn't owe him anything, because he has never encountered a situation where he didn't get everything he wanted.


I know.
I know.
You're probably right.

I just can't believe he's gotten this far. I mean, he's the Republican nominee. It's like they looked at the consequences of not vetting Palin and thought, "We could fail bigger."
 
2012-07-29 04:00:00 PM  
Wow. I'm also curious if his reason for not releasing his 2009 tax returns in particular is because he was part of the IRS' tax amnesty for Swiss account holders.
 
NFA [TotalFark]
2012-07-29 04:14:49 PM  

coco ebert: Wow. I'm also curious if his reason for not releasing his 2009 tax returns in particular is because he was part of the IRS' tax amnesty for Swiss account holders.


I suspect it's worse than that.
 
2012-07-29 04:19:29 PM  
Only in America can a class of people buy laws and protection that keep them from paying taxes and when the rest of us cry foul we get accused of waging class warfare.

Why the fark do they care about socialism? They're not the ones paying for it.
 
2012-07-29 04:42:33 PM  

doyner: Only in America can a class of people buy laws and protection that keep them from paying taxes and when the rest of us cry foul we get accused of waging class warfare.

Why the fark do they care about socialism? They're not the ones paying for it.


that's just how this country rolls. I'm starting to think the GOP actively avoids making any sort of sense. it's all just doublethink and propaganda.
 
2012-07-29 04:49:38 PM  
Huh. Interesting way to get around that.

Time to find a way to plug that hole.
 
2012-07-29 04:58:33 PM  

make me some tea: Huh. Interesting way to get around that.

Time to find a way to plug that hole.


yeah, but even thinking about it makes you a socialist scumbag these days.
 
2012-07-29 05:08:49 PM  
Romney gave money to the IRA?
3.bp.blogspot.com



Certainly he's courting Irish voters; but then again he is a republican as they are.
 
2012-07-29 05:12:30 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Romney gave money to the IRA?
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 300x300]



Certainly he's courting Irish voters; but then again he is a republican as they are.


retroactively
 
2012-07-29 05:20:11 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Romney gave money to the IRA?
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 300x300]



Certainly he's courting Irish voters; but then again he is a republican as they are.


HAHA!
That's so wonderfully awesome. I laughed so hard, I pissed off my cat.
 
2012-07-29 05:21:57 PM  
You all didn't think tax shelters were for LITTLE people, did you?
 
2012-07-29 06:03:55 PM  
Whar T4X return, wher
 
2012-07-29 06:04:26 PM  

Bontesla: I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.


At this point I'm convinced he just figured he'd walk into the WH because he deserves it, and all the peons will recognize that he's the rightful heir to the throne.
 
2012-07-29 06:09:47 PM  
This is the perfect response when someone asks "Why should Romney have to release his tax returns? It's not required, the way a birth certificate is".

Why should he release them? Because he found a way to invest 5 grand a year for something like a 1000% annual increase. fark the presidency - I want to know how to do that myself for just on general principles.
 
2012-07-29 06:10:45 PM  
When do we remember how America was founded and start shooting these Tories in their faces?
 
2012-07-29 06:11:23 PM  

Nice concise sum up of how Mitt Romney's 100 million dollar IRA came into existence circumventing (albeit legally, apparently) regular person tax laws.

For extra fun points Mitt and his wife have already taken advantage of various incentives over the years to scape another 100 million together to make a trust fund for their 5 sons.

Tax Free.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Mitt Romney's five sons -- Matt, Tagg, Craig, Ben and Josh -- are sitting pretty with a trust fund worth $100 million.

Getting there took investments that produced great growth, according to the Romney campaign. It also took smart tax strategies.

Romney and his wife Ann have been giving to the boys since 1995, and, according to a spokesperson for the Romney campaign, all of their contributions have been below gift-tax contribution limits.

The limit for a couple in 1995 was $20,000 and has since grown to $26,000. In addition, there's a "lifetime gift-tax exclusion" for all the boys that totaled $1.2 million back in 1995 and has since grown to $10 million.

Add it all up, and the Romneys could have gifted $1.3 million in 1995, and a total of $10.6 million through 2011. All tax free.


Huzzah for "smart tax strategies".

Kinda makes the whole "death tax" argument a bit moot, don't it?

Anyone who thinks this man represents the American people's best interests and not the interests of a relatively tiny number of 1%ers like himself has not been paying the slightest bit of attention
 
2012-07-29 06:12:16 PM  
The entitlement argument seems pretty on the mark. Just want to point out the last prez the repubs gave us was also born with a silver spoon in his mouth, never did an honest day's labor in his life and had everything including the presidency handed to him on a silver platter. I'm sensing a trend here. When will Tagg be old enough to run? Will he pick Jenna for his running mate?
 
2012-07-29 06:13:53 PM  

quatchi: Mitt Romney's five sons -- Matt, Tagg, Craig, Ben and Josh -- are sitting pretty with a trust fund worth $100 million.


Mitt sure has some hard-working bootstrappy boys!
 
2012-07-29 06:13:56 PM  
This motherfarker is constantly bleating about how he "did what was legally required". Dude, you are running for the highest office of the greatest country on earth. You are held to a higher standard than merely not being a criminal. And you have not met that standard--in fact, if the facts came out, you probably would end up having broken the law too.
 
2012-07-29 06:15:42 PM  
Vanity Fair already came to that conclusion a month ago. Their explanation was that Bain grossly understated the value of companies they bought, gave everyone shares, which they put in their IRA, "turned the company around", stated its real value, and suddenly a $5K investment is actually worth millions.
 
2012-07-29 06:15:43 PM  

doyner: quatchi: Mitt Romney's five sons -- Matt, Tagg, Craig, Ben and Josh -- are sitting pretty with a trust fund worth $100 million.

Mitt sure has some hard-working bootstrappy boys!


They built it all themselves too. No help from anybody.
 
2012-07-29 06:16:57 PM  

Don't Troll Me Bro!: Bontesla: I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.

At this point I'm convinced he just figured he'd walk into the WH because he deserves it, and all the peons will recognize that he's the rightful heir to the throne.


armagideon-time.com
 
2012-07-29 06:19:45 PM  

Karac: This is the perfect response when someone asks "Why should Romney have to release his tax returns? It's not required, the way a birth certificate is".

Why should he release them? Because he found a way to invest 5 grand a year for something like a 1000% annual increase. fark the presidency - I want to know how to do that myself for just on general principles.


Seriously.
This.
 
2012-07-29 06:19:45 PM  
It's not his fault his employer didn't value shares correctly. Bain was worth next to nothing when he got the shares. It wasn't until his brilliant leadership turned them around that the share value went through the roof. Besides, taxes are theft, do we really look down upon people for outwitting a thief?
 
2012-07-29 06:23:21 PM  

Pope Larry II: That is a brilliant scheme. It's so brilliant it should be illegal.


What was described in that article is illegal. Anything sold to retirement plan must be measured by its true fair market value. IRA rules are pretty clear about that as it would defeat the whole purpose of limiting annual IRA contributions.
 
2012-07-29 06:24:36 PM  
So how could Romney's IRA contain so much more? Allow me to speculate.

No.
 
2012-07-29 06:24:36 PM  
If the speculation is true, he'd be a hero for screwing the government, right?
 
2012-07-29 06:24:50 PM  
2008-10-20 09:42:03 PM
401k

... So you mean that when you looked at the evidence, you found out that the person who did the best was making 48 percent in a quarter and the person who was doing the worst was losing 9 percent a quarter.


Yes, that's correct.

That's big a gap.


It was stunning. I couldn't assimilate it. I didn't know how to think about it. It was far beyond anything I would have ever guessed.

And these are in the same 401(k) plan with the same investment options.

That's correct. ... They were all large plans with $100 million, $200 hundred dollars in the plan and 1,000, 2,000 participants or more. So these were big plans, and they were scattered geographically, some up East and some on the West Coast.

... So you're looking at the top performer and the bottom performer. That's individuals. But could you see a difference by categories?


Yes. ... So we decided to look at the top 20 percent and the bottom 20 percent. ... We saw the same thing over and over. ... Say the bottom 20 percent had an investment return for the year of 4 percent. The top 20 percent would be anywhere between five and seven times that number. ...

Like 30 percent?

Yeah, 30 percent right. ... I label[ed] this yield disparity. I just coined the term. I thought, we have a yield disparity that is a financial cancer in our great, beautiful 401(k) movement. I had never seen it before, but it was everywhere I looked.


What do you mean, a financial cancer?

It would destroy the opportunity for ordinary workers to retire in dignity. They couldn't get there from here. There is no way. Number one, they are contributing too little, too late for the most part. They are contributing the least, and then they are getting lousy investment performance. ...

But were your samples large enough for you to trust them?

Absolutely. I'm looking at 50,000 people in a population of maybe 30 million people in 401(k) plans at that time, ... scattered in every ZIP code in this country, so I knew that what I saw was real, and I found it frightening. ...


... So when you are looking at that concrete evidence of disparity in yield, is there any correlation between [investment income] and the kind of income and education people have?

I don't know about education, because it wasn't a data element in our database, but annual income was. Every client that we did this examination of, in every case, the 20 percent at the top not only had the highest investment income -- like 30 percent or whatever -- they also had the highest average annual pay, whereas the bottom 20 percent not only had the lowest investment income, four percent, they had the lowest average annual pay. And ... the people at the top 20 percent often were putting in less money as a percentage of pay ... because there was a limitation imposed by the law on what they could contribute, so it wasn't driven by the fact that they were putting in more. ...

Are you saying you found a correlation between the salary levels of people and their ability to manage their investment? Higher-paid people got better investment results and lower-paid people got worse?


That's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, it was the only correlation; there was no other.

So what you are saying is the best-paid people, the richest people are getting richer and the middle-class workers are falling further behind?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.



----
You're saying that the Department of Labor has numbers that [show that] back in 1974, companies were footing the bill for 89 percent, ... and 25 years later they're putting in 49 percent. So companies have saved 40 percent of their costs nationwide?

There has been a cost shifting of 40 percent from contributions made by the employer to contributions made by the employee.
 
2012-07-29 06:25:46 PM  
Mitt Romney: Chode.
 
2012-07-29 06:25:53 PM  
Newsweek mag story coming out calling him a wimp

Daily Beast story about the story

basically there's so much that he's trying to hide that he's running scared from all interviews

(plus his character failings)
 
2012-07-29 06:27:19 PM  

marsgwar: So how could Romney's IRA contain so much more? Allow me to speculate.

No.


It's not so much speculation as it is the only explanation. The cap on IRA contributions is absolute; there's no other way for the money to have gotten there.
 
2012-07-29 06:27:48 PM  

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Don't Troll Me Bro!: Bontesla: I can't believe that Rmoney would DO this, expect to run and win the presidency, without ever having to account for it.

At this point I'm convinced he just figured he'd walk into the WH because he deserves it, and all the peons will recognize that he's the rightful heir to the throne.

[armagideon-time.com image 481x443]


Not only the rightful heir, but the PROPHESIED heir.

/images1.wikia.nocookie.net
//What a prophesied Heir may look like
 
2012-07-29 06:31:06 PM  

Dwight_Yeast: The cap on IRA contributions is absolute; there's no other way for the money to have gotten there.


He could have gotten really REALLY REALLY good returns because he's such a shrewd investor. Of course, if you can get an eleventy-thousand-percent returns on your investments, maybe you have better things to do than run for president.
 
2012-07-29 06:31:07 PM  

mjjt: Newsweek mag story coming out calling him a wimp

Daily Beast story about the story

basically there's so much that he's trying to hide that he's running scared from all interviews

(plus his character failings)


....Then he apologizes immediately-with all the sincerity of a hostage.

heh.
 
2012-07-29 06:31:13 PM  
What's hysterical is that he doesn't even need to release his taxes... he's got a $5K/yr IRA worth $100 million, so clearly he must have done something sneaky, if not illegal. It's like a huge sh*t in the middle of the living room... I don't need to see the technical history and paperwork on this one, the fact remains that there's still a huge sh*t on the floor.
 
2012-07-29 06:33:00 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-07-29 06:33:06 PM  
This loop hole is how he could also gift his children 100 Million TAX FREE. Basically Bain can just make up a number how much the stock is "worth" and pretend all the value is appreciation which is bull shiat.

He is cheating.
 
2012-07-29 06:34:22 PM  
Can someone with better investment / calculator skills than me tell me what percentage return you'd have to have every year to turn $5000 a year since 1978 (when 401K's were written into the tax code) into $100,000,000 in that 34 year length of time.

And then tell me if there was any stock since then that ever increased that much in a single year.
 
2012-07-29 06:34:42 PM  
The other fun thing is going to be looking into the blind trust his money is supposed to have been put into when he became govorner.

Apparently, one of his blind trusts invested $10 million in a company his son started, which suggests the trust wasn't so much blind as partially sighted.
 
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