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(Fox News)   While the Air Force needs a mega-billion-dollar new fighter every few years, the Marines are quite happy with their 101 year-old sidearm, the Colt .45 M1911   (foxnews.com) divider line 264
    More: Spiffy, U.S. Marines, Colt Defense, air forces  
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13843 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2012 at 4:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-28 07:57:14 PM

profplump: Gonz: I might be able to run, but I don't think leaving my 13-year-old daughter behind with a guy who might want to have a seat over there is a good idea.

All I'm saying is, if you shot him once with a .22, wouldn't that typically be enough to protect your daughter from rape? I agree it's less likely to kill him, but I would expect it to have very similarly effectiveness in terms of preventing rape.


I think there's a pretty good chance it would, but I'm not willing to risk my hoo-ha on a pretty good chance, much less my daughters'. I don't know many men who would. (Well, I knew one, but I divorced him.)
 
2012-07-28 07:57:40 PM

URAPNIS: RabidJade: Also for the 9mm lovers out there, remember that the military has to use ball ammo so a supersonic round with no expandability does little to someone other than poke holes in them. They knew this in the testing phase but figured since it was a rarely used secondary weapon that it wouldn't matter.

Air crew uses hollow point.


Not in theater AFAIK. That pesky Hague Convention and all that. Unless things have changed since I was in (retired 2006), or the Air Force does it different than the Navy?
 
2012-07-28 08:00:49 PM

Subtle_Canary: I dont buy the myth of the magical one stop shot .45.

You have hundreds if not thousands of anecdotes of American soldiers fighting through wounds inflicted by weapons such as the Mauser (8mm) Arisaka (7mm) and AK's of various types. All of these weapons are heads and tails more powerful than ANY .45 cartridge, so pray tell explain why these weapons can sometimes wound, if even mortally so, in such a way that the injured can continue to heroically fight back but we assume a shot from a .45 is 'teh deadliness' concentrate?

Im sure if we looked at the other side there are just as many stories as Unteroffizer Fritz or whatever who, after taking multiple shots of yank .45 went on to kill whoever shot him, take his shiat and get an iron cross or whatever.

But that dont fit into the lore i suppose


the .45 acp is a larger projectile than most combat rifles, 230 grain v. 196 grain for the 8mm Mauser. Additionally, as mentioned before, the .45 travels at a much slower speed than rifles do. Unless the rifle bullet hits bone, it will blow right through a human leaving a smaller entrance and exit wound than the .45. The difference in damage is easily visible when looking at the cavitation the bullets cause when being fired through ballistic gel.

/at close (pistol) range.


WillieWildcat: RabidJade: I still remember the hatred for the pistol by the military bureaucracy when they did the testing and switched to the Beretta.

Care to elaborate or can you point me to some reading on the subject? I'm genuinely curious what you're referring to.


Although I don't have any reference to back it up, I do remember this being the case when switching to 9mm was first being discussed. Not to mention the uproar that was caused when it was announced that Beretta had won the contract.
 
2012-07-28 08:08:42 PM
The United States Air Force. Defending your freedom between the hours of 9 and 2:30.

Unless it's hot out.
 
2012-07-28 08:10:52 PM
Is this the gun porn thread?

images.wikia.com

Want.
 
2012-07-28 08:11:02 PM
Not alot of love for the 10mm around here?

Glock 20
(banned from HTML)
 
2012-07-28 08:15:27 PM
Gun porn thread? Mine:

farm9.staticflickr.com

CZ 75B with cocobolo grips. Their price range is similar to a Glock compact, but they're all steel. Yeah, mine's "only" a 9mm, but I don't see any .45 snobs volunteering to step in front of one. Besides, unlike the military, I can use hollow points.
 
2012-07-28 08:23:01 PM
Best:

www.slickguns.com
 
2012-07-28 08:28:07 PM
I own two automatic hand guns:

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpAvVuN3gF0
Beretta model 93R
and a Colt .45 1911

I love em both.
 
2012-07-28 08:34:23 PM

Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


These guys are local, handmade and fancy

You can get one a lot cheaper elsewhere
 
2012-07-28 08:35:43 PM
I do have a soft spot for my 1911:

img41.imageshack.us
 
2012-07-28 08:37:37 PM
Here's an amazing thing: The theory of special relativity was just before 1911, and general relativity was just after.
It took a long time to come up with a reliable, utilitarian semi-automatic pistol.
The technology was quite late in coming.
 
2012-07-28 08:39:36 PM

NEWJERSEYFARKTAG: I own two automatic hand guns:

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpAvVuN3gF0
Beretta model 93R
and a Colt .45 1911

I love em both.


No you do not.
You have 2 semi-automatics.
 
2012-07-28 08:40:20 PM

ippolit: Sgt Otter: It looked ridiculous in her tiny hands, but she could dump the entire mag clip magazine in the 10 ring in about 2 seconds.

Sorry. Pet peeve.


Sorry. Pet peeve. A clip is a device that holds cartridges in place with no moving parts. A magazine is a mechanical device for feeding cartridges into the mechanism of the weapon. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the first one to point this out (as I haven't read all the comments yet), and it's common parlance now anyway. Also, it's zero, not 'O' in a number. Although that would make "867-53zero9" a pretty stupid song....Anyway, Calling mags 'clips' is technically incorrect. You know how those pet peeves are...
 
2012-07-28 08:41:27 PM
A 1911 frame in 10mm is the ultimate combat pistol imho. I have a glock 20 but don't shoot it much due to full house 10mm rounds being known for ripping the dinky plastic frame apart in under 1000 rounds. (Yes i'm aware poly frames are great just not for something as powerful as non watered down 10mm ammo.) Though colt managed to build steel frame 10mm's that fell apart also.
 
2012-07-28 08:47:07 PM

AtlanticCoast63: Subby:

While the Air Force needs a mega-billion-dollar new fighter every few years,

While I bow to no one in my dislike of My Beloved Service's tendency to gold-plate the crap out of anything that moves, allow me to point out that the F-22/F-35 mix has been in development since 1986 and 1996 respectively, and the -22 took NINETEEN YEARS to get into service - the -35 still isn't, and may be delayed further. And keep in mind, the -22 is replacing the F-15, which went into service in 1976.

Putting that kind of timeline into perspective, that means we would have gone into WWII with this as our primary fighter:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x526]

This would have been our primary aircraft in Vietnam:
[www.militaryfactory.com image 800x533]

We would have fought Desert Storm with this:
[images.wikia.com image 757x490]


I'm pretty sure we did fight desert storm with F4's.

They might have cleared the way with Shrikes for all those new fangled aircraft flying behind them.
 
2012-07-28 08:51:35 PM

Gdalescrboz: OK, well, you bring your Colt 45 to the fight and I'll bring my F-22


Using Le Mans rules to start...sure.
 
2012-07-28 08:53:03 PM

dustman81: It should be point and *BOOM*. If you squeeze the trigger and it goes *click*, you've got problems.


Actually my hammer safety makes a pretty distinct click when disengaged. It ranks up there with the racking of a shotgun slide as a deterrent or attention getter.
 
2012-07-28 08:55:15 PM

Gonz: profplump: Gonz: Enough stopping power to get the job done

What kind of gun battle are you imagining where shooting someone once with any round is not sufficient to allow you to safely withdraw? I'm sure they exist -- on the battlefield certainly, and I'm sure you could cook up something else if you sat and thought about it -- but in the type of situation where you would expect to shoot some, how frequently is "I got off a good shot but it didn't bring him down" a realistic concern?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for guns, and whatever reason you have for preferring a particular gun is fine with me -- for all I care you can use a .45 because you liked the movie of the same title -- I just don't see why "stopping power" is such a widely cited parameter for people shooting things other than elephants.

I'm envisioning the only scenario where I could envision shooting another human, and that's a home invasion where my family is at risk. I might be able to run, but I don't think leaving my 13-year-old daughter behind with a guy who might want to have a seat over there is a good idea. In that case, I want stopping power from a handgun.

I currently have a 410 shotgun, and it's fine, but I like the concept of dead (or seriously inconvenienced) bad man from a pistol.


Get Judge. and you wouldn;t even have to buy different ammo.
 
2012-07-28 08:55:37 PM
.45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.
 
2012-07-28 08:56:24 PM
I have a 1970s vintage Commander Light Weight in .45 and a early 92FS stainless. Until I changed a link the Commander was completely unreliable while the 92 has always been completely reliable. Since I changed the link the Commander has been great. The Commander is a hard kicker because of the alloy frame, the factory sights are the pits, and it does not have a beaver tail, which means the web of my hand gets pretty beat after a couple of hundred rounds. I find the Beretta a bit tough to shoot well because it is a big gun and I have fairly small hands. I would not part with either but I want a CZ SP-01 Shadow for IPSC. If I lived in a concealed carry jurisdiction I would carry a steel framed Commander. I could care less if it were 9mm or .40 or .45. Just as long as it has a good set of sights.
 
2012-07-28 08:59:57 PM

Herr Flick's Revenge: NEWJERSEYFARKTAG: I own two automatic hand guns:

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpAvVuN3gF0
Beretta model 93R
and a Colt .45 1911

I love em both.

No you do not.
You have 2 semi-automatics.


Ok, I have one auto and one semi.

Smoke that.
/ I cathect them both
 
2012-07-28 09:01:36 PM

AtlanticCoast63: gone into WWII with this as our primary fighter:


The Corps went into WWII with the Brewster Buffalo.
 
2012-07-28 09:11:37 PM
I always wanted an electric minigun chambered for .22 shells.

PIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
 
2012-07-28 09:19:01 PM

craigdamage: .45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.


I consider that suspicious on account of the fact that hitting a helmet with a handgun round at 100 yards involves as much luck as it does skill. If we upgrade to sub guns then barrel lengths and other features come into play. But the energy between the rounds is not that much dissimilar.
Both rounds were in existence from WW1 and their primary weapons were commercially available. Both of them have similar performance.
If there was a clear reason for using one over the other then it would have been discovered long before the end of WW2.
The 1911 was preferable over the Luger and other early automatics because it was a simpler design that proved to be more robust in the dirt.

Not that I'm biased against 9mm.

dl.dropbox.com

/This is a CZ-P01
/There are many like it, but this one is mine.
 
2012-07-28 09:22:11 PM
www.everydaynodaysoff.com
 
2012-07-28 09:23:24 PM

way south: There are many like it, but this one is mine.


Where have I heard that before? Like so much other useless tidbits the Crotch beat into my innocent head.
 
2012-07-28 09:28:31 PM

2wolves: way south: There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Where have I heard that before? Like so much other useless tidbits the Crotch beat into my innocent head.


The riflemans creed:

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!


/Never was a Marine, never memorized it.
/Somehow, that particular line also got stuck in my head at some point.
/I suspect it was from Full Metal Jacket.
 
2012-07-28 09:31:29 PM

indylaw: You never know when the Al Qaeda Air Force is going to perfect their new camel-and-two-box-fans fighter. We must be prepared.


That really needs a picture.
 
2012-07-28 09:51:50 PM

2wolves: An associated issue: When will the hoarders stop driving up ammunition prices? After the election?


After the election IT WILL BE TOO LATE. THE UN WILL CONFISCATE ALL OF YOUR GUNS AND AMMO. BETTER BUY NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN, NO MATTER WHAT THE COST.

This message brought to you by the NRA and the gun lobbyist consortium
 
2012-07-28 10:00:54 PM

Gdalescrboz: OK, well, you bring your Colt 45 to the fight and I'll bring my F-22


That is a wonderful plan. I say we start at the same starting line.
 
2012-07-28 10:02:35 PM

way south: 2wolves: way south: There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Where have I heard that before? Like so much other useless tidbits the Crotch beat into my innocent head.

The riflemans creed:

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!

/Never was a Marine, never memorized it.
/Somehow, that particular line also got stuck in my head at some point.
/I suspect it was from Full Metal Jacket.


Yes, I know. Four years of PLC and Quantico.
 
2012-07-28 10:05:15 PM

craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.


9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards
 
2012-07-28 10:05:18 PM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Nice gun, but its no glock.


You're right, it's better than a glock. More accurate, just as durable, and more ergonomic.
 
2012-07-28 10:07:21 PM

Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


On the first, depends. Entry level plane jane 1911s can be had for around $350 for a decent off brand like norinco.

High end customized ones go for over $5k.

As to feeding and caring, care is a bottle of lube, some hoppes #9, a few brushes and rags, and a new recoil spring every 3k rounds.
 
2012-07-28 10:09:16 PM

Herr Flick's Revenge: NEWJERSEYFARKTAG: I own two automatic hand guns:

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpAvVuN3gF0
Beretta model 93R
and a Colt .45 1911

I love em both.

No you do not.
You have 2 semi-automatics.


To be pedantic... You're thinking "fully automatic." Automatic, in some usage, is one where you needn't cock the firearm between shots. A double action* revolver is considered automatic by the people who use that definition. It is not as common a usage as the one you refer to though.

*I could have that backwards, the revolver where your trigger pull also brings back and releases the hammer
 
2012-07-28 10:13:30 PM

Coelacanth: I had a friend who almost killed her dad with a plastic toy version of a .45.

Remember during the 1960s when good plastic was cheap and toy guns were being being made from molds of the real thing? My friend had a toy .45 when she was six or seven and then she found a loose .45 round in a desk drawer. She figured out how to put the bullet into the gun and then she hid between some trashcans and waited for her dad to come home from work.

Dad comes home from work. He walks up to the front door, his little girl pops out from behind the trashcans, says "Gotcha!" and pulls the trigger. The gun fires and shatters into a million pieces. Dad catches the round in the shoulder and crumples. A few minutes later, the neighbors are driving my friend's dad to the hospital where he recovers after a couple of weeks.

End.


You actually believed your friend when he told you that story?
 
2012-07-28 10:14:14 PM

dustman81: Giltric: The original point and click interface.

It should be point and *BOOM*. If you squeeze the trigger and it goes *click*, you've got problems.


Ahh, Glock fan I see?
www.strelectvi.cz
 
2012-07-28 10:19:59 PM
iheartscotch
9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards


2 things: That's the Hague Accords,not the Geneva Convention that bans hollowpoints & the US never signed on so we're free to use any kind of ammo we want.

2nd,on handgun accuracy,Wild Bill Hickok would like a word with you
 
2012-07-28 10:20:50 PM

croesius: I do have a soft spot for my 1911:

[img41.imageshack.us image 800x451]


Very nice, same one I have. Wouldn't mind having a Pro or Ultra Carry II as a companion piece.

gluestickralph: A 1911 frame in 10mm is the ultimate combat pistol imho. I have a glock 20 but don't shoot it much due to full house 10mm rounds being known for ripping the dinky plastic frame apart in under 1000 rounds. (Yes i'm aware poly frames are great just not for something as powerful as non watered down 10mm ammo.) Though colt managed to build steel frame 10mm's that fell apart also.


I used to really want one of those Delta Elites, then I saw that AMT had a longslide 10mm version of their Hardballer (gun the Termnator used in the first movie) called the Javalina. I then wanted one of those. Kimber's Eclipse model has a 10mm version, I even saw one at a nearby Sportsmens Warehouse, but I've never looked into how much 10mm ammo runs. My .44 is already pretty much too expensive to shoot unless I look into reloading. Forty-five isn't that bad, yet. But I've always been intrigued by 10mm, going back to Sonny Crocket's Bren.
 
2012-07-28 10:21:45 PM

croesius: dustman81: Giltric: The original point and click interface.

It should be point and *BOOM*. If you squeeze the trigger and it goes *click*, you've got problems.

Ahh, Glock fan I see?
[www.strelectvi.cz image 449x300]


Nope. I prefer my firearms to be American made, not Austrian.
 
2012-07-28 10:23:35 PM

WillieWildcat: I've had my RIA M1911A1 Tactical for two years now. I've put about a thousand rounds through it. I bring it with me when I go hiking, fishing, etc. Easily the best $500 I've ever spent.

I'm extremely glad to hear the marines are choosing to go with this gun. From what I hear, the .45 ACP is the only round that'll stop someone who can't feel pain. 3-4 9mm might do the trick, but if you start shooting when they're within 15 ft. of you while they're running, you're probably not going hit them with that many rounds before they get to you.


Do you guys really believe this? The difference between a 9mm and .45 is about a 10th of an inch. It's not punching massive holes while the 9mm is not. It's about 100 grains heavier in the fmj version, but it travels at about half the speed, so the foot lbs on impact is not really that different. In fbi tests both penetrate the needed 12 inches in ballistic gel considered necessary to hit vitals, not too mention that unless you hit the spinal column or brain you are not going to get a "one shot stop."
 
2012-07-28 10:25:23 PM

just_intonation: Yes, they do, but nothing beats the H&K USP .45 ACP.


Except the Mk 23

/love my USP
 
2012-07-28 10:31:53 PM

Gaius: Subtle_Canary: I dont buy the myth of the magical one stop shot .45.

You have hundreds if not thousands of anecdotes of American soldiers fighting through wounds inflicted by weapons such as the Mauser (8mm) Arisaka (7mm) and AK's of various types. All of these weapons are heads and tails more powerful than ANY .45 cartridge, so pray tell explain why these weapons can sometimes wound, if even mortally so, in such a way that the injured can continue to heroically fight back but we assume a shot from a .45 is 'teh deadliness' concentrate?

Im sure if we looked at the other side there are just as many stories as Unteroffizer Fritz or whatever who, after taking multiple shots of yank .45 went on to kill whoever shot him, take his shiat and get an iron cross or whatever.

But that dont fit into the lore i suppose

the .45 acp is a larger projectile than most combat rifles, 230 grain v. 196 grain for the 8mm Mauser. Additionally, as mentioned before, the .45 travels at a much slower speed than rifles do. Unless the rifle bullet hits bone, it will blow right through a human leaving a smaller entrance and exit wound than the .45. The difference in damage is easily visible when looking at the cavitation the bullets cause when being fired through ballistic gel.

/at close (pistol) range.




It's my understanding that bullets fired from a rifle cartridge travel fast enough that what would be a temporary cavity from a slow pistol round is stretched beyond the elastic ability of the skin and becomes a permanant wound channel. Plus many rifle bullets are known for yawing and fragmenting on impact, like the 5.56mm.
 
2012-07-28 10:34:55 PM

Giltric: AtlanticCoast63: Subby:

While the Air Force needs a mega-billion-dollar new fighter every few years,

While I bow to no one in my dislike of My Beloved Service's tendency to gold-plate the crap out of anything that moves, allow me to point out that the F-22/F-35 mix has been in development since 1986 and 1996 respectively, and the -22 took NINETEEN YEARS to get into service - the -35 still isn't, and may be delayed further. And keep in mind, the -22 is replacing the F-15, which went into service in 1976.

Putting that kind of timeline into perspective, that means we would have gone into WWII with this as our primary fighter:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x526]

This would have been our primary aircraft in Vietnam:
[www.militaryfactory.com image 800x533]

We would have fought Desert Storm with this:
[images.wikia.com image 757x490]

I'm pretty sure we did fight desert storm with F4's.



It was the Marine Corps EW platform until they "upgraded" to EA-6Bs, which they still fly.

The Israelis also still fly F-4s. It was a stupid fast aircraft so missions that require lubricious speed are in line with it's capabilities.
 
2012-07-28 10:41:02 PM

UnspokenVoice: indylaw: You never know when the Al Qaeda Air Force is going to perfect their new camel-and-two-box-fans fighter. We must be prepared.

That really needs a picture.


Somethin' like this?
img854.imageshack.us
(Q&D)
 
2012-07-28 10:42:28 PM

craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.


iheartscotch: craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.

9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards


fill those cans with water, and then that test might have some relevance.
 
2012-07-28 10:45:03 PM

manimal2878: WillieWildcat: I've had my RIA M1911A1 Tactical for two years now. I've put about a thousand rounds through it. I bring it with me when I go hiking, fishing, etc. Easily the best $500 I've ever spent.

I'm extremely glad to hear the marines are choosing to go with this gun. From what I hear, the .45 ACP is the only round that'll stop someone who can't feel pain. 3-4 9mm might do the trick, but if you start shooting when they're within 15 ft. of you while they're running, you're probably not going hit them with that many rounds before they get to you.

Do you guys really believe this? The difference between a 9mm and .45 is about a 10th of an inch. It's not punching massive holes while the 9mm is not. It's about 100 grains heavier in the fmj version, but it travels at about half the speed, so the foot lbs on impact is not really that different. In fbi tests both penetrate the needed 12 inches in ballistic gel considered necessary to hit vitals, not too mention that unless you hit the spinal column or brain you are not going to get a "one shot stop."


It can be argued that a 9mm will expand, but a .45 will not shrink.

There would be alot less rap songs about getting shot 5,8,15 times...if rappers carried .45s.
 
2012-07-28 10:55:50 PM
I would like to put on record that the Geneva Conventions in no way prohibit hollow points or expanding ammunition.

That is all.
 
2012-07-28 10:56:19 PM
.45 fanboy here. No apologies.
 
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