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(Fox News)   While the Air Force needs a mega-billion-dollar new fighter every few years, the Marines are quite happy with their 101 year-old sidearm, the Colt .45 M1911   (foxnews.com) divider line 264
    More: Spiffy, U.S. Marines, Colt Defense, air forces  
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13858 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2012 at 4:59 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



264 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-07-28 05:00:49 PM  
I'll take apples and oranges for $500, Alex
 
2012-07-28 05:01:56 PM  
The original point and click interface.
 
2012-07-28 05:02:11 PM  
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-07-28 05:03:36 PM  
As if a pistol were a Marine's prime weapon. Fail.
 
2012-07-28 05:04:00 PM  
It's an excellent pistol, and our men need excellent, not inexpensive. The cost difference is negligible when you realize that it's a human life that may need the extra oomph, not just a tiny fraction of a military objective.
 
2012-07-28 05:05:06 PM  
Nice gun, but its no glock.
 
2012-07-28 05:05:07 PM  
It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.
 
2012-07-28 05:05:37 PM  

Giltric: The original point and click interface.


The phrase you are looking for is point and shoot.
 
2012-07-28 05:05:39 PM  
it has barely changed sine 1911

Looks like they kinda went off on a tangent.
 
2012-07-28 05:05:48 PM  
strikefighterconsultinginc.com
 
2012-07-28 05:06:23 PM  
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]
 
2012-07-28 05:06:33 PM  

BigJake: I'll take apples and oranges for $500, Alex



Ha!
 
2012-07-28 05:07:05 PM  

ChaoticLimbs: It's an excellent pistol, and our men need excellent, not inexpensive. The cost difference is negligible when you realize that it's a human life that may need the extra oomph, not just a tiny fraction of a military objective.


It is simple, rugged, accurate and hits like a brick through a plate glass window. Easily one of the best firearms of all time.

Still need one of my own, love shooting my friend's ww2 surplus one.
 
2012-07-28 05:07:32 PM  

Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.


Good luck reloading that 6 shooter in a firefight.
 
2012-07-28 05:07:45 PM  

Giltric: The original point and click interface.


...wireless handheld device.
 
2012-07-28 05:07:58 PM  
"You can't beat a .45 cartridge,"

Well, unless you're talking about interoperability with other NATO forces.
 
2012-07-28 05:08:42 PM  

ChaoticLimbs: It's an excellent pistol, and our men need excellent, not inexpensive. The cost difference is negligible when you realize that it's a human life that may need the extra oomph, not just a tiny fraction of a military objective.


When dealing with the Tailiban the extra oomph is the difference between a dead Taliban and one getting promoted to suicide bomber a few weeks later.
 
2012-07-28 05:08:52 PM  
Nothing like a good firearm that needs no adjustments.

See also: AK-47.
 
2012-07-28 05:08:59 PM  

BigJake: I'll take apples and oranges for $500, Alex


How about this then: the attack helicopter used by the Marines is the AH-1Z Cobra. The basic design dates back to the Huey troop transports you see in any Vietnam movie. While the army has transitioned to Apaches and tried to move onto Comanches, the Marines have been trying to decide what how to change the name for the next upgrade since they've run out of alphabet.
 
2012-07-28 05:09:20 PM  
Thinking of buying a gun. I like the 1911 because if it wadn't reliable it wouldn't still be in use.

Need to spend some time at the range test driving before I make a decision though.
 
2012-07-28 05:09:22 PM  
Old gun
 
2012-07-28 05:09:58 PM  
I thought you needed a shiny dress uniform sword for the scary lava monster?
 
2012-07-28 05:10:31 PM  
The Colt 1911 is indeed a great gun. The best? Hhhmm....I'll go with a Sig Sauer .45.
 
2012-07-28 05:10:58 PM  

Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.


I actually have a US Army Colt .45 revolver, and I think it says 1911 on it.
 
2012-07-28 05:11:59 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

Sniff...it's a thing of beauty. And despite some very minor changes, has remained the same great sidearm through all these years. Why mess with perfect? I have mine in stainless, with rubber grips.
 
2012-07-28 05:12:01 PM  

fusillade762


it has barely changed sine 1911

Looks like they kinda went off on a tangent.


*waves*
 
2012-07-28 05:13:29 PM  

Ashtrey: Thinking of buying a gun. I like the 1911 because if it wadn't reliable it wouldn't still be in use.

Need to spend some time at the range test driving before I make a decision though.


Wadn't?

Is that the pluperfect or do you have a cold?
 
2012-07-28 05:13:43 PM  

fusillade762: it has barely changed sine 1911

Looks like they kinda went off on a tangent.


-.-
 
2012-07-28 05:15:05 PM  
::drools with no shame whatsoever::

does no one have an answer to kitty's silly questions?
 
2012-07-28 05:15:13 PM  
"You can't beat a .45 cartridge,"

*Throwing gasoline on a possible flamewar*

10mm?
 
2012-07-28 05:15:16 PM  
Didn't most of the military go to Beretta 9mm? Meh, they make a good 9mm, but you really want the extra damage you get from a solid slug like the the .45 gives. Use a 1911, fill it with +P+ semi jacketed hollow points, and you have a real chance for survival against an attacker, well...as long as you can nail him in the torso. Those rounds tend to shred shiat.
 
2012-07-28 05:15:35 PM  

Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


You can spend anywhere from $400 to $4000 on a M1911A1. My ex had a Wilson Comabt CQB .45 that was about $2500, and that was before she had it customized by a gunsmith. It looked ridiculous in her tiny hands, but she could dump the entire mag in the 10 ring in about 2 seconds.
 
2012-07-28 05:15:45 PM  

Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


A new Springfield Armory 1911A1 in stainless with rosewood grips goes for $900.
 
2012-07-28 05:17:13 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Didn't most of the military go to Beretta 9mm? Meh, they make a good 9mm, but you really want the extra damage you get from a solid slug like the the .45 gives. Use a 1911, fill it with +P+ semi jacketed hollow points, and you have a real chance for survival against an attacker, well...as long as you can nail him in the torso. Those rounds tend to shred shiat.



I own a Beretta 92FS, and love shooting it.

/Would never claim it's better than a .45, though.
//Only category it wins is magazine capacity.
 
2012-07-28 05:17:25 PM  

Gaius: The Colt 1911 is indeed a great gun. The best? Hhhmm....I'll go with a Sig Sauer .45.


/Not bad, but Glock makes a fine .45 in their model 21 that is very dependable, and accurate.
 
2012-07-28 05:17:48 PM  

fusillade762: it has barely changed sine 1911

Looks like they kinda went off on a tangent.


Considering how the taxpayers are going to have to co-sine for the loan to pay for those planes, I'd rather have the pistol.

USA USA USA!!!
 
2012-07-28 05:17:57 PM  

fusillade762: "You can't beat a .45 cartridge,"

Well, unless you're talking about interoperability with other NATO forces.


How often are other NATO forces out there with us in the shiat?
 
2012-07-28 05:18:47 PM  
BTW, the pattern on the grips on the .45 in TFA looks like a pattern that belongs on a golf shirt.
 
2012-07-28 05:18:53 PM  

ChaoticLimbs: It's an excellent pistol, and our men need excellent, not inexpensive. The cost difference is negligible when you realize that it's a human life that may need the extra oomph, not just a tiny fraction of a military objective.


You do know the military does not give two shiats about human life. If they did every soldier would have dragon scale armor.
 
2012-07-28 05:20:18 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Didn't most of the military go to Beretta 9mm? Meh, they make a good 9mm, but you really want the extra damage you get from a solid slug like the the .45 gives. Use a 1911, fill it with +P+ semi jacketed hollow points, and you have a real chance for survival against an attacker, well...as long as you can nail him in the torso. Those rounds tend to shred shiat.


The Hague convention forbids the use of non jacketed ammo
 
2012-07-28 05:21:10 PM  

Sgt Otter: Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]

You can spend anywhere from $400 to $4000 on a M1911A1. My ex had a Wilson Comabt CQB .45 that was about $2500, and that was before she had it customized by a gunsmith. It looked ridiculous in her tiny hands, but she could dump the entire mag in the 10 ring in about 2 seconds.


No wonder you divorced her. You got skeered.
 
2012-07-28 05:22:32 PM  
medicaltourismbusinessnetwork.com

Though, I've owned a Beretta 92FS since the eighties and am still very happy with it.
 
2012-07-28 05:22:54 PM  

butterflyfart: ChaoticLimbs: It's an excellent pistol, and our men need excellent, not inexpensive. The cost difference is negligible when you realize that it's a human life that may need the extra oomph, not just a tiny fraction of a military objective.

You do know the military does not give two shiats about human life. If they did every soldier would have dragon scale armor.


it lacks protection in the knee area.
 
2012-07-28 05:23:28 PM  
Yes, the Marines do not use expensive aircraft at all.
 
2012-07-28 05:25:09 PM  

Sword and Shield: ChaoticLimbs: hits like a brick through a plate glass window.


Thanks Boothroyd
 
2012-07-28 05:26:00 PM  

The_Sponge: BTW, the pattern on the grips on the .45 in TFA looks like a pattern that belongs on a golf shirt.


Reminds me of the checkering or scalloping or whatever Kimber does to some of their grips.
 
2012-07-28 05:26:13 PM  
That pic from TFA is the worst picture of an M1911 I've ever seen.
Poop-brown color AND an ugly grip?
 
2012-07-28 05:26:49 PM  
Or if you have trouble hitting the target, just use one of these, aiming optional.

Link
 
2012-07-28 05:27:04 PM  
I am in the Marines and except for a couple of secret squirrel units, everyone uses a beretta 9mm.

The 9mm is the pistol we have to qualify with. I've never even seen someone shoot a .45 in the Marine Corps, but I know there are some out there.

/stationed at Camp Pendleton
 
2012-07-28 05:27:37 PM  

whither_apophis: Sword and Shield: ChaoticLimbs: hits like a brick through a plate glass window.

Thanks Boothroyd


Nice pickup. Have a Burns Martin holster for your troubles.
 
2012-07-28 05:27:46 PM  
needs more billy dee williams

/hot
 
2012-07-28 05:28:35 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]

A new Springfield Armory 1911A1 in stainless with rosewood grips goes for $900.


Rosewood? Is that the dressage model?
 
2012-07-28 05:28:44 PM  

The_Sponge: "You can't beat a .45 cartridge,"

*Throwing gasoline on a possible flamewar*

10mm?


If I could choose one pistol for protecting my family, it would be a .40. Enough stopping power to get the job done, and I wouldn't go broke every time I went to the range.

If I could have a 1911 for free, though? Different story.
 
2012-07-28 05:28:47 PM  

Kittypie070:

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


My Kimber started at about $800, but you can get them for a less if you go with something like Taurus. On the other end of the scale, for something like a Les Baer or a Wilson Combat, it's going to be much, much more. IMHO, Kimbers are somewhat of a upper, middle-of-the-road 1911. I wouldn't recommend getting a higher end 1911 until you've had a lower end one for a while and know how to run it. Even a less expensive 1911 can, with the right work done on it, be a naildriver.

/Likely buying a Coonan .357 Mag 1911 next.
//flex. FIREPOWAH!
 
2012-07-28 05:28:57 PM  
Ah. Sexy, sexy pistol. Killed plenty of Krauts and Japs.

Wish I had disposable income at the moment to purchase one.

That said, you're comparing apples and oranges, submitter. Side arms are not an arms race like Fighter supremacy is.
 
2012-07-28 05:29:10 PM  
Ppft. Schlitz is SO much better than Colt 45.
 
2012-07-28 05:29:25 PM  

One Bad Apple: Bit'O'Gristle: Didn't most of the military go to Beretta 9mm? Meh, they make a good 9mm, but you really want the extra damage you get from a solid slug like the the .45 gives. Use a 1911, fill it with +P+ semi jacketed hollow points, and you have a real chance for survival against an attacker, well...as long as you can nail him in the torso. Those rounds tend to shred shiat.

The Hague convention forbids the use of non jacketed ammo


For battle rounds. You can put whatever you want in your personal sidearm.
 
2012-07-28 05:30:31 PM  

CthulhuCalling: butterflyfart: ChaoticLimbs: It's an excellent pistol, and our men need excellent, not inexpensive. The cost difference is negligible when you realize that it's a human life that may need the extra oomph, not just a tiny fraction of a military objective.

You do know the military does not give two shiats about human life. If they did every soldier would have dragon scale armor.

it lacks protection in the knee area.


I knew a guy who was a marine once till he took an...
 
2012-07-28 05:31:10 PM  

Kittypie070:
how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) runs about 36 cents per round for the cheap stuff, unless you buy large quantities, reloads, or steel casings. If you want hollow points, it can get up to a dollar or more a round. Maintenance is just like any other pistol; $20 worth of kit will keep it clean. Once you've put several thousand rounds through it, you may need to replace some springs, which can run upwards of 10 dollars.
 
2012-07-28 05:31:31 PM  

BronyMedic: Ah. Sexy, sexy pistol. Killed plenty of Krauts and Japs.

Wish I had disposable income at the moment to purchase one.

That said, you're comparing apples and oranges, submitter. Side arms are not an arms race like Fighter supremacy is.



www.gunreports.com

TWINS Basil, TWINS.
 
2012-07-28 05:32:34 PM  
I love my Taurus 24/7 LS at $290.
www.keepshooting.com
 
2012-07-28 05:33:05 PM  

Gyrfalcon: One Bad Apple: Bit'O'Gristle: Didn't most of the military go to Beretta 9mm? Meh, they make a good 9mm, but you really want the extra damage you get from a solid slug like the the .45 gives. Use a 1911, fill it with +P+ semi jacketed hollow points, and you have a real chance for survival against an attacker, well...as long as you can nail him in the torso. Those rounds tend to shred shiat.

The Hague convention forbids the use of non jacketed ammo

For battle rounds. You can put whatever you want in your personal sidearm.


/Indeed, and the above mentioned rounds were what i used in my duty sidearm. Cocked and locked.
 
2012-07-28 05:34:01 PM  
i841.photobucket.com

i841.photobucket.com

i841.photobucket.com

i841.photobucket.com

i841.photobucket.com

After seeing the results of the phase II, 12000 round per gun firing tests, with 197 instances of failure, 4 out of 10 guns completed destroyed and MORE SIGNIFICANTLY an original letter of non-acceptability.

Yeah, its a great piece. Not.
 
2012-07-28 05:34:12 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Gaius: The Colt 1911 is indeed a great gun. The best? Hhhmm....I'll go with a Sig Sauer .45.

/Not bad, but Glock makes a fine .45 in their model 21 that is very dependable, and accurate.


Glock is a piece of shiat. Won't own one again. LOL, plastic crap sold to the world by a con man promoting his garbage through strip clubs.
 
2012-07-28 05:36:02 PM  

Sword and Shield: whither_apophis: Sword and Shield: ChaoticLimbs: hits like a brick through a plate glass window.

Thanks Boothroyd

Nice pickup. Have a Burns Martin holster for your troubles.


I almost went q
 
2012-07-28 05:36:18 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Gyrfalcon: One Bad Apple: Bit'O'Gristle: Didn't most of the military go to Beretta 9mm? Meh, they make a good 9mm, but you really want the extra damage you get from a solid slug like the the .45 gives. Use a 1911, fill it with +P+ semi jacketed hollow points, and you have a real chance for survival against an attacker, well...as long as you can nail him in the torso. Those rounds tend to shred shiat.

The Hague convention forbids the use of non jacketed ammo

For battle rounds. You can put whatever you want in your personal sidearm.

/Indeed, and the above mentioned rounds were what i used in my duty sidearm. Cocked and locked.


Whatever keeps you safe.
 
2012-07-28 05:37:40 PM  
The number one reason I bought my 1911 was how it felt in my hand. No other semi-auto compares.

My opinion.
 
2012-07-28 05:38:21 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Gaius: The Colt 1911 is indeed a great gun. The best? Hhhmm....I'll go with a Sig Sauer .45.

/Not bad, but Glock makes a fine .45 in their model 21 that is very dependable, and accurate.


you don't replace steel with tupperware.
 
2012-07-28 05:39:10 PM  

Captain_Ballbeard: Bit'O'Gristle: Gaius: The Colt 1911 is indeed a great gun. The best? Hhhmm....I'll go with a Sig Sauer .45.

/Not bad, but Glock makes a fine .45 in their model 21 that is very dependable, and accurate.

Glock is a piece of shiat. Won't own one again. LOL, plastic crap sold to the world by a con man promoting his garbage through strip clubs.


/Oh you...1/10.
 
2012-07-28 05:40:30 PM  

Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


I've seen them as cheap as $450 from Rock Island Armory. Springfields are about $100 more and Kimbers go for roughly $800, but some are over $1000.
 
2012-07-28 05:40:59 PM  

bubo_sibiricus: Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.

Good luck reloading that 6 shooter in a firefight.


Yeah, no one has tried that before in the past 10 decades. What were they thinking?
 
2012-07-28 05:42:23 PM  

Refudiated Strategerist: bubo_sibiricus: Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.

Good luck reloading that 6 shooter in a firefight.

Yeah, no one has tried that before in the past 10 decades. What were they thinking?


Some would call that a century.
 
2012-07-28 05:45:17 PM  
I have the Taurus knockoff of it: it's great. Love my Glock 21, though.
 
2012-07-28 05:46:45 PM  
Had a roommate who loaned me his Glock (19, I think) once. It threw rounds all over the place and was prone to jamming. To be fair, it was in pretty rough shape, although he didn't use it much at all. My old 1911 was as solid as a rock and as accurate as I was.
 
2012-07-28 05:47:42 PM  
Meh, skip the 1911 and go with a Browning Hi-Power. It's John Browning's last design and an improvement on the 1911.

/would still rather have a Glock 19
 
2012-07-28 05:49:22 PM  

Gaius: The Colt 1911 is indeed a great gun. The best? Hhhmm....I'll go with a Sig Sauer .45.


As an owner of both the Sig 1911 and the Sig P220 (.45) they are both great guns. The 220 does have a smoother action and is a bit more accurate IMO.

Not nearly as cool as the 1911:

www.everydaynodaysoff.com

I mean, come on, that is a sweet looking weapon. The Sig Sauer 1911 Nightmare
 
2012-07-28 05:50:27 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Didn't most of the military go to Beretta 9mm? Meh, they make a good 9mm, but you really want the extra damage you get from a solid slug like the the .45 gives. Use a 1911, fill it with +P+ semi jacketed hollow points, and you have a real chance for survival against an attacker, well...as long as you can nail him in the torso. Those rounds tend to shred shiat.


It was to standardize ammunition in NATO.
 
2012-07-28 05:51:55 PM  
dl.dropbox.com

To be fair, not much has changed in pistol technology over the years.
The .45 VS 9mm debate aside, the 1911 is accurate and extremely capable for the task.
Plus its a well known design with plenty of manufacturers able to make parts, and it has many fans among shooters.

/It doesn't hurt to have been in the inventory for a century.
/Besides, who thought the open slide of the M9 was a good idea for military use?
 
2012-07-28 05:55:56 PM  
Took them long enough to get rid of those POS berettas.
 
2012-07-28 06:02:58 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Nice gun, but its no glock.


Which is a good thing

Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.


Agreed - but the 1911 does reload a might faster

Kittypie070:
how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?


Cost depends, they range from $400 to whatever

45 ACP is going to run (best price) $0.33 per round


And I will just leave this right here, because it is true

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-07-28 06:04:25 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Nice gun, but its no glock.


I agree, and THANK GOD.

Colt makes real, quality firearms out of STEEL for people who know their firearms, use them, and develop proficiency and safe handling habits.

Then, there's Glock. That's about it. Lowest common denominator users who don't know polymer from their asses, and need something as simple as possible with no fancy buttons or safeties or anything that may confuse them! Cheap is good, gangsta! RIGHT?

You can see links to stories on here that are about Glocks being tucked in the waistband of idiots, and that's where they belong.

You can find the Colt 1911 on US Marines again, very soon.

Is that simple enough of a comparison for you, idiot?
 
2012-07-28 06:06:08 PM  

Captain_Ballbeard: Bit'O'Gristle: Gaius: The Colt 1911 is indeed a great gun. The best? Hhhmm....I'll go with a Sig Sauer .45.

/Not bad, but Glock makes a fine .45 in their model 21 that is very dependable, and accurate.

Glock is a piece of shiat. Won't own one again. LOL, plastic crap sold to the world by a con man promoting his garbage through strip clubs.


Troll.
 
2012-07-28 06:07:50 PM  
A regular mil-spec plain jane 1911a1 is not THAT great a fire arm. Its a good pistol sure but its not the second coming of christ its fanbois think it is (hell, JMB later went on to mostly create the Hi-Power which is a better pistol by far). Its heavy, low capacity, not any more accurate than any of its competitors and a biatch to maintain.
When people cream themselves over the notoriety of the '.45' they are actually thinking of custom job racer guns that cost 3 times as much and arent reliable enough to be a fighting mans gun.
 
2012-07-28 06:08:19 PM  
I've shot both in the Marines, I HATED the trigger action of the M92. It's also too large for a lot of hands. An updated 1911 would be very nice.
 
2012-07-28 06:08:36 PM  

bubo_sibiricus: Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.

Good luck reloading that 6 shooter in a firefight.


Good luck with jamming.

If you practice enough you can acquire a level of skill using speed loaders.

Don't spray & pray.
 
2012-07-28 06:08:59 PM  
Yes, it's a good gun. As reliable as the Glock 22 I shot for 15 years and the Glock 27 I still have, nope. But then again, is the Glock; as sweet, sexy, accurate, machined, joy to hold and Huggable as my Sig P229 SAS Gen 2, Hell no! But the Sig is roughly $400 more, so you have to balance what you can afford with what you are getting.

/ still want a Steyr GB though.
 
2012-07-28 06:09:37 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: Gaius: The Colt 1911 is indeed a great gun. The best? Hhhmm....I'll go with a Sig Sauer .45.

/Not bad, but Glock makes a fine .45 in their model 21 that is very dependable, and accurate.


Yes, they do, but nothing beats the H&K USP .45 ACP.

That being said, there's not much wrong with the Colt, either...
 
2012-07-28 06:10:51 PM  

aevert: Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]

I've seen them as cheap as $450 from Rock Island Armory. Springfields are about $100 more and Kimbers go for roughly $800, but some are over $1000.


Ithica and Star used to have 1911 types for under $400, but those were pretty rough. My Kimber was on sale at $850, but it's incredibly accurate right out of the box.

Browning makes an odd little pistol now, it's pretty much a 2/3 sized 1911 in .22 long rifle. It looks and feels like a cap gun, but it'd be a good way to get experience with the design with much cheaper ammo. Still, felt odd.
 
2012-07-28 06:12:22 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Nothing like a good firearm that needs no adjustments.

See also: AK-47.


The AK-47 (more correctly called the Kalashnikov) gets a lot of hate from people who don't know their weapons. Sure, it's horribly inaccurate, but drop it in the mud, don't clean it, ignore general maintenance, and the damn thing still fires. It's killed more people than both atomic weapons dropped on Japan.
 
2012-07-28 06:12:24 PM  
I don't want one in stainless.

I just want an issue type one.

I'll be even happier as long as I can pass the local [Kern County] checks for getting a handgun license.
I also plan on taking the local safety courses.

Thanks everyone for the tasty infos, I'm a HAPPY kitty.
 
2012-07-28 06:12:44 PM  
An associated issue: When will the hoarders stop driving up ammunition prices? After the election?
 
2012-07-28 06:14:51 PM  

Mael99: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Nice gun, but its no glock.

I agree, and THANK GOD.

Colt makes real, quality firearms out of STEEL for people who know their firearms, use them, and develop proficiency and safe handling habits.

Then, there's Glock. That's about it. Lowest common denominator users who don't know polymer from their asses, and need something as simple as possible with no fancy buttons or safeties or anything that may confuse them! Cheap is good, gangsta! RIGHT?

You can see links to stories on here that are about Glocks being tucked in the waistband of idiots, and that's where they belong.

You can find the Colt 1911 on US Marines again, very soon.

Is that simple enough of a comparison for you, idiot?


You are a farking moron. Why don't you look up the tens of thousand of round torture tests done on glocks and see how many 1911s have completed the same. Then go ahead and look at how many military and police forces around the world have adopted polymer framed pistols and think about why that might be.

/farking gun trolls.
 
2012-07-28 06:15:14 PM  
I shoot a 1911 pretty much every time we go shooting, we call it Trusty. My buddys is prettier with a wood grain handle and some type of aftermarket stuff on it. The recoil is a bit nicer on a 1911 than some other .45s.
 
2012-07-28 06:16:57 PM  
and before anybody starts thinking that the USMC will be rolling around with the equivalent of a Kimber or Danny Wesson, remember, the military does shiat on the cheap by the lowest bidder. These 1911's will be Charles Daly equivalents with shiat barrels, bad sights and stuffy triggers.
 
2012-07-28 06:17:06 PM  
No....I wouldn't want the odd little Browning 1911 either, even though I have small hands.
 
2012-07-28 06:18:14 PM  

Kittypie070: Thanks everyone for the tasty infos, I'm a HAPPY kitty.


You've got mail.
 
2012-07-28 06:19:09 PM  

2wolves: bubo_sibiricus: Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.

Good luck reloading that 6 shooter in a firefight.

Good luck with jamming.

If you practice enough you can acquire a level of skill using speed loaders.

Don't spray & pray.


With .45, you don't have to. If you don't hit them, the concussion will knock 'em down anyway, and give you another chance.

And I've seen people in competition reload a revolver as fast or faster than someone reloading a clip, from a bench, but in the field under fire I'd rather have the clip, and not just for the capacity...
 
2012-07-28 06:19:16 PM  
The .45 will kill a man on PCP
The 9mm may kill him

2wolves: An associated issue: When will the hoarders stop driving up ammunition prices? After the election?


Not likely. RMoney isn't going to step up and stop the slide into fascism.
 
2012-07-28 06:22:39 PM  
wilsoncombat.com

Perfection
 
2012-07-28 06:24:37 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: The .45 will kill a man on PCP
The 9mm may kill him


A 1911 holds 7+1 .45 ACP rounds. A Beretta 92FS holds 15+1 9mm rounds. I'm certain I can drop someone on drugs with the latter.

I've shot both guns extensively. I like both guns. I bought the Beretta.
 
2012-07-28 06:24:57 PM  

Subtle_Canary: and before anybody starts thinking that the USMC will be rolling around with the equivalent of a Kimber or Danny Wesson, remember, the military does shiat on the cheap by the lowest bidder. These 1911's will be Charles Daly equivalents with shiat barrels, bad sights and stuffy triggers.


These aren't going to the average Marine, which will still be getting the M9 or M9A1 Beretta 9mm. The Marines have been using a high-quality, completely custom MEU-SOC (Marine Expeditionary Unit - Special Operations Command) .45 for their Force Recon Marines for years.

It's basically what they use instead of the Heckler & Koch Mark 23 SOCOM pistol.

M45 MEUSOC
 
2012-07-28 06:28:36 PM  

Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


It depends; you can get a parkerized (blued steel) one for $500-$600; you can get a stainless one for $800-$3000. One like the one pictured is approx. $1500. You can get a box of 50 .45acp for $17.95 or .36 cents a round on ammotogo.com or for a little more at Wally world. But, the beauty of the 1911 it is extremely customizable. You can get a pink one encrusted with diamonds if you so desire.

I clean my 1911 once a week; but you really only need to clean it after you shoot.
 
2012-07-28 06:29:55 PM  

OgreMagi: Gyrfalcon: Nothing like a good firearm that needs no adjustments.

See also: AK-47.

The AK-47 (more correctly called the Kalashnikov) gets a lot of hate from people who don't know their weapons. Sure, it's horribly inaccurate, but drop it in the mud, don't clean it, ignore general maintenance, and the damn thing still fires. It's killed more people than both atomic weapons dropped on Japan.


Plus its cheap, available and there's more ammo for it than you can shake a stick at. I'm an admirer of Soviet lo-tech, honestly. When the F-117 first arrived, there was a documentary about how ground crews had to sweep the runway to make sure there were no loose bolts or rocks that could get sucked into the intakes. Someone commented how Soviet fighters could take a shovel full of gravel into their engines and keep flying--they couldn't get parts or maintenance, so the damn things were virtually invulnerable.
 
2012-07-28 06:32:41 PM  

Kittypie070: ::drools with no shame whatsoever::

does no one have an answer to kitty's silly questions?


My RIA (Rock Island Armory) 1911A1 GI, parkerized finish w/ wood grips is around 450 bucks retail these days. I've owned mine for several years now and never a hitch with 100s of rounds downrange.

50 round boxes of 230 gr ball ammo can be found for 17 - 20 bucks on sale; stock up when you find them.

It all depends on how fancy you want to be.
 
2012-07-28 06:36:15 PM  

Sgt Otter: Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]

You can spend anywhere from $400 to $4000 on a M1911A1. My ex had a Wilson Comabt CQB .45 that was about $2500, and that was before she had it customized by a gunsmith. It looked ridiculous in her tiny hands, but she could dump the entire mag in the 10 ring in about 2 seconds.


And you divorced her?
 
2012-07-28 06:36:50 PM  
As if a pistol were a Marine's prime weapon. Fail.

Old former Marine here. When I arrived at my first duty station in '88 we were issued M1911A1's for duty. Onboard ship this was my primary weapon even though we also had M870's, M1200's and of course the M16A1 and then the A2. I switched to the M9 about a year or so later.

At the time, staff NCO's and officers were issued M1911's as their sidearm and only borrowed a rifle for qualification shooting. Same went for tankers and other MOS's whose job didn't require the constant carrying of a rifle. Outside of the combat arms, most Marines never carried a weapon unless they were training.

Times do change but for about a year I only carried a pistol and had a shotgun for backup/show, outside of the US, in and out of combat zones.

tl;dr: depends on the billet and station.
 
2012-07-28 06:39:01 PM  

just_intonation: the concussion will knock 'em down anyway,


This is wrong and retarded to believe.
 
2012-07-28 06:39:14 PM  
I fell in love with the Springfield M1911 I "rented" at the gun range. I used to rent it at least once a month, and feed 50 rounds of .45 ACP through it. I finally bought a Para-ordnance P13-45, which is a nice pistol in its own right, but I would still like to own the original Colt M1911.
 
2012-07-28 06:39:41 PM  

Gonz: Enough stopping power to get the job done


What kind of gun battle are you imagining where shooting someone once with any round is not sufficient to allow you to safely withdraw? I'm sure they exist -- on the battlefield certainly, and I'm sure you could cook up something else if you sat and thought about it -- but in the type of situation where you would expect to shoot some, how frequently is "I got off a good shot but it didn't bring him down" a realistic concern?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for guns, and whatever reason you have for preferring a particular gun is fine with me -- for all I care you can use a .45 because you liked the movie of the same title -- I just don't see why "stopping power" is such a widely cited parameter for people shooting things other than elephants.
 
2012-07-28 06:41:04 PM  
nighthawktactical.com

More 1911 porn
 
2012-07-28 06:45:00 PM  

StinkyFiddlewinks: I've shot both in the Marines, I HATED the trigger action of the M92. It's also too large for a lot of hands. An updated 1911 would be very nice.


I did too in the Army. The 92 was a good road gun (MP), but I sincerely preferred the 1911 in the field. It's more on the user to decide, and while I made expert in both, I went with a .45 for myself at home. I've read a lot of stuff about Marines and Soldiers wanting the 1911 back. If a sidearm is not your primary weapon for duty, I'd rather have the 1911.

/2cents
 
2012-07-28 06:47:00 PM  

profplump: Gonz: Enough stopping power to get the job done

What kind of gun battle are you imagining where shooting someone once with any round is not sufficient to allow you to safely withdraw? I'm sure they exist -- on the battlefield certainly, and I'm sure you could cook up something else if you sat and thought about it -- but in the type of situation where you would expect to shoot some, how frequently is "I got off a good shot but it didn't bring him down" a realistic concern?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for guns, and whatever reason you have for preferring a particular gun is fine with me -- for all I care you can use a .45 because you liked the movie of the same title -- I just don't see why "stopping power" is such a widely cited parameter for people shooting things other than elephants.


Heres an example of stopping power being a key aspect of weapons THANKS WIKI!
The concept of "stopping power" appeared in the 19th Century when colonial troops (e.g. American in the Philippines during the Moro Rebellion, British in New Zealand during the Land Wars), engaging in close action with native tribesmen, found that their pistols were not able to stop charging warriors. This led to larger caliber weapons (such as the .45 Colt being returned to service, and the .45 ACP being developed), intended to stop opponents with a single round.
During the Seymour Expedition in China, at one of the battles at Langfang, Chinese Boxers, armed with swords and spears, charged the British and Americans, who were armed with guns. At point blank range, one British soldier had to empty four bullets into a Boxer before he stopped, and the American Captain Bowman McCalla reported that single rifle shots were not enough, multiple rifle shots were needed to halt a Boxer. Only machine guns were effective in stopping the Boxers.

This comes into play still in modern day with drugs and such. Someone pumped on say PCP is probably going to giggle and not really be stopped by lower caliber, whereas the higher will put them down physically if not by raw damage to their body. Also applies to combat troops and armor, need to penetrate the armor OR if you can't, make sure the person is reminded to stay the hell down and not attack you.
 
2012-07-28 06:47:06 PM  
You never know when the Al Qaeda Air Force is going to perfect their new camel-and-two-box-fans fighter. We must be prepared.
 
2012-07-28 06:51:33 PM  
To call the 1911 old is to miss the point. It was so far ahead of its' time when designed. As noted here pistol technology is and has been stagnant. It was designed by John Browning and some of his other designs remain state of the art (the fabled Ma Deuce, the M-2 .50 cal machine gun for one).
I am by no means down on Glock's, Sigs, or other pistols mentioned here. But I do understand the Marines wanting the 1911.
 
2012-07-28 06:52:44 PM  
Don't own a weapon presently, but if I bought only one it would be the 1911. Carried it for security duty in the Navy, didn't get to shoot it much but loved it.

/I see stopping power has been taken care of
 
2012-07-28 06:53:40 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: [upload.wikimedia.org image 600x370]

Sniff...it's a thing of beauty. And despite some very minor changes, has remained the same great sidearm through all these years. Why mess with perfect? I have mine in stainless, with rubber grips.


Granddad had one issued to him in WWI when he served as commander of a fleet of NY pleasure yachts that were converted into U-Boat hunters. That gun stayed with him as he sailed around the world, (He put it aside briefly for a lighter and more discrete .380, but his near-beheading by a Moro in the Philippines, and his life being saved only by the nearby marine MP who did have a .45 and heard his pop-gun going off, convinced him to return to the old faithful) became a Panama Canal Pilot, pistol instructor for Panama's Guardia Nacional and eventually an instructor at the USMMA in WWII. His daughter inherited it and used it for "yacht defense" when she lived full time on a sailboat in the Caribbean. Sadly, she didn't know much about guns or their care in a salt-water environment so it was in appalling shape when she passed away. Fortunately my dad, who inherited it next, is a bit of a gun guy and a hell of mr fix-it, so he undertook to see if the weapon could be saved. As it turned out, all it took was a thorough oiling and cleaning, and bit of de-rusting, Today that gun is shot at least twice a week by Dad's grand kid (the original owner's great-grandson) and it shoots as well as the day it came out of the factory.
 
2012-07-28 06:55:02 PM  
You never know when the Al Qaeda Air Force is going to perfect their new camel-and-two-box-fans fighter. We must be prepared.

Last time Al Qaeda used air power they stole it. Either I need to recalibrate my sarcsm detector or you need to stop being an ass.
 
2012-07-28 06:56:44 PM  

DreamSnipers: To call the 1911 old is to miss the point.


i.imgur.com
What an old 'useless' ~80 year old weapon may look like.
 
2012-07-28 06:59:28 PM  

2wolves: An associated issue: When will the hoarders stop driving up ammunition prices? After the election?

Well yeah I had to restock after Y2K. It takes a while to go through that many rounds.
 
2012-07-28 07:00:40 PM  
Subby:

While the Air Force needs a mega-billion-dollar new fighter every few years,

While I bow to no one in my dislike of My Beloved Service's tendency to gold-plate the crap out of anything that moves, allow me to point out that the F-22/F-35 mix has been in development since 1986 and 1996 respectively, and the -22 took NINETEEN YEARS to get into service - the -35 still isn't, and may be delayed further. And keep in mind, the -22 is replacing the F-15, which went into service in 1976.

Putting that kind of timeline into perspective, that means we would have gone into WWII with this as our primary fighter:
upload.wikimedia.org

This would have been our primary aircraft in Vietnam:
www.militaryfactory.com

We would have fought Desert Storm with this:
images.wikia.com
 
2012-07-28 07:00:42 PM  
I had a friend who almost killed her dad with a plastic toy version of a .45.

Remember during the 1960s when good plastic was cheap and toy guns were being being made from molds of the real thing? My friend had a toy .45 when she was six or seven and then she found a loose .45 round in a desk drawer. She figured out how to put the bullet into the gun and then she hid between some trashcans and waited for her dad to come home from work.

Dad comes home from work. He walks up to the front door, his little girl pops out from behind the trashcans, says "Gotcha!" and pulls the trigger. The gun fires and shatters into a million pieces. Dad catches the round in the shoulder and crumples. A few minutes later, the neighbors are driving my friend's dad to the hospital where he recovers after a couple of weeks.

End.
 
2012-07-28 07:01:27 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Nice gun, but its no glock.


And that's it's beauty-
When firing the kick back is more of a body shove then a shoulder punch = more accurate
It is a sub sonic round - if you pay attention you can see it hurtling toward the bulls eye
It is a heavy sub sonic round= "lots of irreparable brain damage"
Parts are everywhere and inexpensive (for the most part) as well.
It's also one of the least expensive larger bore semi-auto's to purchase and to supply.

It's a great all around sidearm-there's more expensive, there's more accurate, there's lighter but all that comes at a steep price - I've got other things to spend cash on.

Not to mention you're carrying a lot of history on your hip there.
 
2012-07-28 07:01:36 PM  
Better..

www.teamglockracing.com

But the Colt is American made, so the Marines should have the Colt.
 
2012-07-28 07:03:26 PM  
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. John Browning designed it right the first time, 101 years ago. It has only been modified slightly, but the original design still works, even today.

A 1911 and AR-15 are next on my list of firearms to purchase.

Giltric: The original point and click interface.


It should be point and *BOOM*. If you squeeze the trigger and it goes *click*, you've got problems.
 
2012-07-28 07:05:11 PM  
Why cant the army and marines just use the same stuff; they're both soldiers after all.
 
2012-07-28 07:05:16 PM  
Oh and subby? This ain't exactly a spring chicken since the last one rolled off the assembly line in 1958 and it's still the AF's go-to heavy bomber:
www.aerospaceweb.org
 
2012-07-28 07:06:25 PM  

2wolves: An associated issue: When will the hoarders stop driving up ammunition prices? After the election?


No, because there will be another election around the corner and the Nefarious Cabal of OGGOG [obama gonna git our guns] will be right there waiting to get them all.

Fear, Uncertainty and Dread won't stop no matter who wins. It is the absolutely best marketing campaign the gun industry and gun shops have ever devised. And at .35 a round for my .45, I really wish it would stop.
 
2012-07-28 07:07:41 PM  

profplump: Gonz: Enough stopping power to get the job done

What kind of gun battle are you imagining where shooting someone once with any round is not sufficient to allow you to safely withdraw? I'm sure they exist -- on the battlefield certainly, and I'm sure you could cook up something else if you sat and thought about it -- but in the type of situation where you would expect to shoot some, how frequently is "I got off a good shot but it didn't bring him down" a realistic concern?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for guns, and whatever reason you have for preferring a particular gun is fine with me -- for all I care you can use a .45 because you liked the movie of the same title -- I just don't see why "stopping power" is such a widely cited parameter for people shooting things other than elephants.


I'm envisioning the only scenario where I could envision shooting another human, and that's a home invasion where my family is at risk. I might be able to run, but I don't think leaving my 13-year-old daughter behind with a guy who might want to have a seat over there is a good idea. In that case, I want stopping power from a handgun.

I currently have a 410 shotgun, and it's fine, but I like the concept of dead (or seriously inconvenienced) bad man from a pistol.
 
2012-07-28 07:10:28 PM  

Your_Huckleberry: aevert: Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]

I've seen them as cheap as $450 from Rock Island Armory. Springfields are about $100 more and Kimbers go for roughly $800, but some are over $1000.

Ithica and Star used to have 1911 types for under $400, but those were pretty rough. My Kimber was on sale at $850, but it's incredibly accurate right out of the box.

Browning makes an odd little pistol now, it's pretty much a 2/3 sized 1911 in .22 long rifle. It looks and feels like a cap gun, but it'd be a good way to get experience with the design with much cheaper ammo. Still, felt odd.


Kittypie070: No....I wouldn't want the odd little Browning 1911 either, even though I have small hands.




I wouldn't mind having one of the Browning .22s, but not at those prices...


I'll add some more gun pr0n and fuel to the fire. Rock Island .22 TCM, comes with an interchangeable 9mm barrel and two mags (one for each caliber), 19 rounds (w/one in the chamber) selling in the $600-$800 price range when you can find one. I'm saving my pennies until the Commander sized one comes out:

canward.com
 
2012-07-28 07:11:04 PM  
I've had my RIA M1911A1 Tactical for two years now. I've put about a thousand rounds through it. I bring it with me when I go hiking, fishing, etc. Easily the best $500 I've ever spent.

I'm extremely glad to hear the marines are choosing to go with this gun. From what I hear, the .45 ACP is the only round that'll stop someone who can't feel pain. 3-4 9mm might do the trick, but if you start shooting when they're within 15 ft. of you while they're running, you're probably not going hit them with that many rounds before they get to you.
 
2012-07-28 07:11:23 PM  

kf4lar: Sgt Otter: Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]

You can spend anywhere from $400 to $4000 on a M1911A1. My ex had a Wilson Comabt CQB .45 that was about $2500, and that was before she had it customized by a gunsmith. It looked ridiculous in her tiny hands, but she could dump the entire mag in the 10 ring in about 2 seconds.

And you divorced her?


HotVsCrazy.jpg
 
2012-07-28 07:11:36 PM  

Gonz: I might be able to run, but I don't think leaving my 13-year-old daughter behind with a guy who might want to have a seat over there is a good idea.


All I'm saying is, if you shot him once with a .22, wouldn't that typically be enough to protect your daughter from rape? I agree it's less likely to kill him, but I would expect it to have very similarly effectiveness in terms of preventing rape.
 
2012-07-28 07:16:15 PM  
Thats not a .45. THIS is a .45(4).

i93.photobucket.com

Just a bit of print when you carry it though.
 
2012-07-28 07:16:49 PM  
 
2012-07-28 07:19:28 PM  

Contribution Corsair: This comes into play still in modern day with drugs and such.


Yeah, I can totally see battlefield-like conditions motivating people to keep fighting even if mortally wounded. I'd like to think I can avoid those scenarios; I'd likely be pretty useless even with a big gun in such a situation.

I hadn't considered drugs; that seems more plausible in the sort of situation I might actually live through. Any idea where I could get some statistics on how frequently people are attacked by out-of-their-mind raging drug users?
 
2012-07-28 07:21:42 PM  
Threads like this make me wonder how many people who post actually have touched the gun that they talk about. I'm glad the Marines brought back the 1911A1 but hope they don't try to pinch pennies in producing it and hurt it in the long run. I still remember the hatred for the pistol by the military bureaucracy when they did the testing and switched to the Beretta. Heck, the requirements even said that 1911A1's could not be part of the process. Also for the 9mm lovers out there, remember that the military has to use ball ammo so a supersonic round with no expandability does little to someone other than poke holes in them. They knew this in the testing phase but figured since it was a rarely used secondary weapon that it wouldn't matter.
 
2012-07-28 07:23:32 PM  

Sgt Otter: It looked ridiculous in her tiny hands, but she could dump the entire mag clip in the 10 ring in about 2 seconds.


Sorry. Pet peeve.
 
2012-07-28 07:23:47 PM  

RabidJade: I still remember the hatred for the pistol by the military bureaucracy when they did the testing and switched to the Beretta.


Care to elaborate or can you point me to some reading on the subject? I'm genuinely curious what you're referring to.
 
2012-07-28 07:34:11 PM  
Gonz 2012-07-28 06:18:14 PM


Kittypie070: Thanks everyone for the tasty infos, I'm a HAPPY kitty.

You've got mail.


[hustles to check]

read read read

[squees even more happily]
 
2012-07-28 07:38:48 PM  
www.sxc.hu
 
2012-07-28 07:40:28 PM  
I dont buy the myth of the magical one stop shot .45.

You have hundreds if not thousands of anecdotes of American soldiers fighting through wounds inflicted by weapons such as the Mauser (8mm) Arisaka (7mm) and AK's of various types. All of these weapons are heads and tails more powerful than ANY .45 cartridge, so pray tell explain why these weapons can sometimes wound, if even mortally so, in such a way that the injured can continue to heroically fight back but we assume a shot from a .45 is 'teh deadliness' concentrate?

Im sure if we looked at the other side there are just as many stories as Unteroffizer Fritz or whatever who, after taking multiple shots of yank .45 went on to kill whoever shot him, take his shiat and get an iron cross or whatever.

But that dont fit into the lore i suppose
 
2012-07-28 07:41:13 PM  
www.edbrown.com

Glock Schmock
 
2012-07-28 07:43:38 PM  

Subtle_Canary: I dont buy the myth of the magical one stop shot .45.

You have hundreds if not thousands of anecdotes of American soldiers fighting through wounds inflicted by weapons such as the Mauser (8mm) Arisaka (7mm) and AK's of various types. All of these weapons are heads and tails more powerful than ANY .45 cartridge, so pray tell explain why these weapons can sometimes wound, if even mortally so, in such a way that the injured can continue to heroically fight back but we assume a shot from a .45 is 'teh deadliness' concentrate?

Im sure if we looked at the other side there are just as many stories as Unteroffizer Fritz or whatever who, after taking multiple shots of yank .45 went on to kill whoever shot him, take his shiat and get an iron cross or whatever.

But that dont fit into the lore i suppose


Poor comment is poor.

Just because stopping power is higher doesn't mean it is magically going to stop/kill ALL targets.

Armor, area of hit, type of round, distance fired, etc all can change how injured a person gets when hit.
 
2012-07-28 07:44:52 PM  
I've got a Glock 19, a Ruger P9 and a Ruger 22/45 target pistol......

I want a 1911. This one.

taloinc.com
 
2012-07-28 07:49:19 PM  

Subtle_Canary: I dont buy the myth of the magical one stop shot .45.

You have hundreds if not thousands of anecdotes of American soldiers fighting through wounds inflicted by weapons such as the Mauser (8mm) Arisaka (7mm) and AK's of various types. All of these weapons are heads and tails more powerful than ANY .45 cartridge, so pray tell explain why these weapons can sometimes wound, if even mortally so, in such a way that the injured can continue to heroically fight back but we assume a shot from a .45 is 'teh deadliness' concentrate?

Im sure if we looked at the other side there are just as many stories as Unteroffizer Fritz or whatever who, after taking multiple shots of yank .45 went on to kill whoever shot him, take his shiat and get an iron cross or whatever.

But that dont fit into the lore i suppose


I don't think that anyone believes that one .45 round is a guaranteed stop. There's people who have survived putting a shotgun to their head. The question is if an attacker is charging you would you rather have a .45 or 9mm? Are you going to risk having the 9mm simply to save money on ammo? When it requires more rounds is it really that much cheaper?
 
2012-07-28 07:50:54 PM  

RabidJade: Also for the 9mm lovers out there, remember that the military has to use ball ammo so a supersonic round with no expandability does little to someone other than poke holes in them. They knew this in the testing phase but figured since it was a rarely used secondary weapon that it wouldn't matter.


Air crew uses hollow point.
 
2012-07-28 07:51:09 PM  
The gun, one of the most successful pistols ever used at Camp Perry's National Matches, a competition known to be the main world event in artillery sports, has barely changed since it's creation.


Arrgghh!!!!
 
2012-07-28 07:51:56 PM  

kokomo61: I've got a Glock 19, a Ruger P9 and a Ruger 22/45 target pistol......

I want a 1911. This one.

[taloinc.com image 850x527]


I have a friend who purchased that Ruger 1911 and it is a very nice 1911 for the price. I like it better than some of the others I've fired that cost considerably more.
 
2012-07-28 07:53:21 PM  

Subtle_Canary: I dont buy the myth of the magical one stop shot .45.

You have hundreds if not thousands of anecdotes of American soldiers fighting through wounds inflicted by weapons such as the Mauser (8mm) Arisaka (7mm) and AK's of various types. All of these weapons are heads and tails more powerful than ANY .45 cartridge, so pray tell explain why these weapons can sometimes wound, if even mortally so, in such a way that the injured can continue to heroically fight back but we assume a shot from a .45 is 'teh deadliness' concentrate?

Im sure if we looked at the other side there are just as many stories as Unteroffizer Fritz or whatever who, after taking multiple shots of yank .45 went on to kill whoever shot him, take his shiat and get an iron cross or whatever.

But that dont fit into the lore i suppose


F=MxA

The Mauser is around twice as fast MV (14,400fps vs 835fps) as the government standard .45 ACP (won't get into civilian rounds here) but has about 1/3 the bullet weight, (5.6g vs 15g) resulting in approximately the same force applied (Joules).

From the Wiki:

"Even in its non-expanding full metal jacket (FMJ) version, the .45 ACP cartridge has a reputation for effectiveness against human targets because its large diameter creates a deep and substantial permanent wound channel which lowers blood pressure more rapidly.[9] The wounding potential of bullets is often characterized in terms of a bullet's expanded diameter, penetration depth, and energy."
 
2012-07-28 07:54:35 PM  
OK, well, you bring your Colt 45 to the fight and I'll bring my F-22
 
2012-07-28 07:57:14 PM  

profplump: Gonz: I might be able to run, but I don't think leaving my 13-year-old daughter behind with a guy who might want to have a seat over there is a good idea.

All I'm saying is, if you shot him once with a .22, wouldn't that typically be enough to protect your daughter from rape? I agree it's less likely to kill him, but I would expect it to have very similarly effectiveness in terms of preventing rape.


I think there's a pretty good chance it would, but I'm not willing to risk my hoo-ha on a pretty good chance, much less my daughters'. I don't know many men who would. (Well, I knew one, but I divorced him.)
 
2012-07-28 07:57:40 PM  

URAPNIS: RabidJade: Also for the 9mm lovers out there, remember that the military has to use ball ammo so a supersonic round with no expandability does little to someone other than poke holes in them. They knew this in the testing phase but figured since it was a rarely used secondary weapon that it wouldn't matter.

Air crew uses hollow point.


Not in theater AFAIK. That pesky Hague Convention and all that. Unless things have changed since I was in (retired 2006), or the Air Force does it different than the Navy?
 
2012-07-28 08:00:49 PM  

Subtle_Canary: I dont buy the myth of the magical one stop shot .45.

You have hundreds if not thousands of anecdotes of American soldiers fighting through wounds inflicted by weapons such as the Mauser (8mm) Arisaka (7mm) and AK's of various types. All of these weapons are heads and tails more powerful than ANY .45 cartridge, so pray tell explain why these weapons can sometimes wound, if even mortally so, in such a way that the injured can continue to heroically fight back but we assume a shot from a .45 is 'teh deadliness' concentrate?

Im sure if we looked at the other side there are just as many stories as Unteroffizer Fritz or whatever who, after taking multiple shots of yank .45 went on to kill whoever shot him, take his shiat and get an iron cross or whatever.

But that dont fit into the lore i suppose


the .45 acp is a larger projectile than most combat rifles, 230 grain v. 196 grain for the 8mm Mauser. Additionally, as mentioned before, the .45 travels at a much slower speed than rifles do. Unless the rifle bullet hits bone, it will blow right through a human leaving a smaller entrance and exit wound than the .45. The difference in damage is easily visible when looking at the cavitation the bullets cause when being fired through ballistic gel.

/at close (pistol) range.


WillieWildcat: RabidJade: I still remember the hatred for the pistol by the military bureaucracy when they did the testing and switched to the Beretta.

Care to elaborate or can you point me to some reading on the subject? I'm genuinely curious what you're referring to.


Although I don't have any reference to back it up, I do remember this being the case when switching to 9mm was first being discussed. Not to mention the uproar that was caused when it was announced that Beretta had won the contract.
 
2012-07-28 08:08:42 PM  
The United States Air Force. Defending your freedom between the hours of 9 and 2:30.

Unless it's hot out.
 
2012-07-28 08:10:52 PM  
Is this the gun porn thread?

images.wikia.com

Want.
 
2012-07-28 08:11:02 PM  
Not alot of love for the 10mm around here?

Glock 20
(banned from HTML)
 
2012-07-28 08:15:27 PM  
Gun porn thread? Mine:

farm9.staticflickr.com

CZ 75B with cocobolo grips. Their price range is similar to a Glock compact, but they're all steel. Yeah, mine's "only" a 9mm, but I don't see any .45 snobs volunteering to step in front of one. Besides, unlike the military, I can use hollow points.
 
2012-07-28 08:23:01 PM  
Best:

www.slickguns.com
 
2012-07-28 08:28:07 PM  
I own two automatic hand guns:

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpAvVuN3gF0
Beretta model 93R
and a Colt .45 1911

I love em both.
 
2012-07-28 08:34:23 PM  

Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


These guys are local, handmade and fancy

You can get one a lot cheaper elsewhere
 
2012-07-28 08:35:43 PM  
I do have a soft spot for my 1911:

img41.imageshack.us
 
2012-07-28 08:37:37 PM  
Here's an amazing thing: The theory of special relativity was just before 1911, and general relativity was just after.
It took a long time to come up with a reliable, utilitarian semi-automatic pistol.
The technology was quite late in coming.
 
2012-07-28 08:39:36 PM  

NEWJERSEYFARKTAG: I own two automatic hand guns:

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpAvVuN3gF0
Beretta model 93R
and a Colt .45 1911

I love em both.


No you do not.
You have 2 semi-automatics.
 
2012-07-28 08:40:20 PM  

ippolit: Sgt Otter: It looked ridiculous in her tiny hands, but she could dump the entire mag clip magazine in the 10 ring in about 2 seconds.

Sorry. Pet peeve.


Sorry. Pet peeve. A clip is a device that holds cartridges in place with no moving parts. A magazine is a mechanical device for feeding cartridges into the mechanism of the weapon. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the first one to point this out (as I haven't read all the comments yet), and it's common parlance now anyway. Also, it's zero, not 'O' in a number. Although that would make "867-53zero9" a pretty stupid song....Anyway, Calling mags 'clips' is technically incorrect. You know how those pet peeves are...
 
2012-07-28 08:41:27 PM  
A 1911 frame in 10mm is the ultimate combat pistol imho. I have a glock 20 but don't shoot it much due to full house 10mm rounds being known for ripping the dinky plastic frame apart in under 1000 rounds. (Yes i'm aware poly frames are great just not for something as powerful as non watered down 10mm ammo.) Though colt managed to build steel frame 10mm's that fell apart also.
 
2012-07-28 08:47:07 PM  

AtlanticCoast63: Subby:

While the Air Force needs a mega-billion-dollar new fighter every few years,

While I bow to no one in my dislike of My Beloved Service's tendency to gold-plate the crap out of anything that moves, allow me to point out that the F-22/F-35 mix has been in development since 1986 and 1996 respectively, and the -22 took NINETEEN YEARS to get into service - the -35 still isn't, and may be delayed further. And keep in mind, the -22 is replacing the F-15, which went into service in 1976.

Putting that kind of timeline into perspective, that means we would have gone into WWII with this as our primary fighter:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x526]

This would have been our primary aircraft in Vietnam:
[www.militaryfactory.com image 800x533]

We would have fought Desert Storm with this:
[images.wikia.com image 757x490]


I'm pretty sure we did fight desert storm with F4's.

They might have cleared the way with Shrikes for all those new fangled aircraft flying behind them.
 
2012-07-28 08:51:35 PM  

Gdalescrboz: OK, well, you bring your Colt 45 to the fight and I'll bring my F-22


Using Le Mans rules to start...sure.
 
2012-07-28 08:53:03 PM  

dustman81: It should be point and *BOOM*. If you squeeze the trigger and it goes *click*, you've got problems.


Actually my hammer safety makes a pretty distinct click when disengaged. It ranks up there with the racking of a shotgun slide as a deterrent or attention getter.
 
2012-07-28 08:55:15 PM  

Gonz: profplump: Gonz: Enough stopping power to get the job done

What kind of gun battle are you imagining where shooting someone once with any round is not sufficient to allow you to safely withdraw? I'm sure they exist -- on the battlefield certainly, and I'm sure you could cook up something else if you sat and thought about it -- but in the type of situation where you would expect to shoot some, how frequently is "I got off a good shot but it didn't bring him down" a realistic concern?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for guns, and whatever reason you have for preferring a particular gun is fine with me -- for all I care you can use a .45 because you liked the movie of the same title -- I just don't see why "stopping power" is such a widely cited parameter for people shooting things other than elephants.

I'm envisioning the only scenario where I could envision shooting another human, and that's a home invasion where my family is at risk. I might be able to run, but I don't think leaving my 13-year-old daughter behind with a guy who might want to have a seat over there is a good idea. In that case, I want stopping power from a handgun.

I currently have a 410 shotgun, and it's fine, but I like the concept of dead (or seriously inconvenienced) bad man from a pistol.


Get Judge. and you wouldn;t even have to buy different ammo.
 
2012-07-28 08:55:37 PM  
.45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.
 
2012-07-28 08:56:24 PM  
I have a 1970s vintage Commander Light Weight in .45 and a early 92FS stainless. Until I changed a link the Commander was completely unreliable while the 92 has always been completely reliable. Since I changed the link the Commander has been great. The Commander is a hard kicker because of the alloy frame, the factory sights are the pits, and it does not have a beaver tail, which means the web of my hand gets pretty beat after a couple of hundred rounds. I find the Beretta a bit tough to shoot well because it is a big gun and I have fairly small hands. I would not part with either but I want a CZ SP-01 Shadow for IPSC. If I lived in a concealed carry jurisdiction I would carry a steel framed Commander. I could care less if it were 9mm or .40 or .45. Just as long as it has a good set of sights.
 
2012-07-28 08:59:57 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: NEWJERSEYFARKTAG: I own two automatic hand guns:

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpAvVuN3gF0
Beretta model 93R
and a Colt .45 1911

I love em both.

No you do not.
You have 2 semi-automatics.


Ok, I have one auto and one semi.

Smoke that.
/ I cathect them both
 
2012-07-28 09:01:36 PM  

AtlanticCoast63: gone into WWII with this as our primary fighter:


The Corps went into WWII with the Brewster Buffalo.
 
2012-07-28 09:11:37 PM  
I always wanted an electric minigun chambered for .22 shells.

PIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII I IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
 
2012-07-28 09:19:01 PM  

craigdamage: .45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.


I consider that suspicious on account of the fact that hitting a helmet with a handgun round at 100 yards involves as much luck as it does skill. If we upgrade to sub guns then barrel lengths and other features come into play. But the energy between the rounds is not that much dissimilar.
Both rounds were in existence from WW1 and their primary weapons were commercially available. Both of them have similar performance.
If there was a clear reason for using one over the other then it would have been discovered long before the end of WW2.
The 1911 was preferable over the Luger and other early automatics because it was a simpler design that proved to be more robust in the dirt.

Not that I'm biased against 9mm.

dl.dropbox.com

/This is a CZ-P01
/There are many like it, but this one is mine.
 
2012-07-28 09:22:11 PM  
www.everydaynodaysoff.com
 
2012-07-28 09:23:24 PM  

way south: There are many like it, but this one is mine.


Where have I heard that before? Like so much other useless tidbits the Crotch beat into my innocent head.
 
2012-07-28 09:28:31 PM  

2wolves: way south: There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Where have I heard that before? Like so much other useless tidbits the Crotch beat into my innocent head.


The riflemans creed:

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!


/Never was a Marine, never memorized it.
/Somehow, that particular line also got stuck in my head at some point.
/I suspect it was from Full Metal Jacket.
 
2012-07-28 09:31:29 PM  

indylaw: You never know when the Al Qaeda Air Force is going to perfect their new camel-and-two-box-fans fighter. We must be prepared.


That really needs a picture.
 
2012-07-28 09:51:50 PM  

2wolves: An associated issue: When will the hoarders stop driving up ammunition prices? After the election?


After the election IT WILL BE TOO LATE. THE UN WILL CONFISCATE ALL OF YOUR GUNS AND AMMO. BETTER BUY NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN, NO MATTER WHAT THE COST.

This message brought to you by the NRA and the gun lobbyist consortium
 
2012-07-28 10:00:54 PM  

Gdalescrboz: OK, well, you bring your Colt 45 to the fight and I'll bring my F-22


That is a wonderful plan. I say we start at the same starting line.
 
2012-07-28 10:02:35 PM  

way south: 2wolves: way south: There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Where have I heard that before? Like so much other useless tidbits the Crotch beat into my innocent head.

The riflemans creed:

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will...
My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...
My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
Before God, I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life.
So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy, but peace!

/Never was a Marine, never memorized it.
/Somehow, that particular line also got stuck in my head at some point.
/I suspect it was from Full Metal Jacket.


Yes, I know. Four years of PLC and Quantico.
 
2012-07-28 10:05:15 PM  

craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.


9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards
 
2012-07-28 10:05:18 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Nice gun, but its no glock.


You're right, it's better than a glock. More accurate, just as durable, and more ergonomic.
 
2012-07-28 10:07:21 PM  

Kittypie070: want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one
want one want one want one want one want one

I think they're beautiful

how much does an M1911 co$t?
how much to feed it and maintain it correctly?

[lifts leg, pees happily all over subtard for yapples and bore-anges comparison]


On the first, depends. Entry level plane jane 1911s can be had for around $350 for a decent off brand like norinco.

High end customized ones go for over $5k.

As to feeding and caring, care is a bottle of lube, some hoppes #9, a few brushes and rags, and a new recoil spring every 3k rounds.
 
2012-07-28 10:09:16 PM  

Herr Flick's Revenge: NEWJERSEYFARKTAG: I own two automatic hand guns:

This one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpAvVuN3gF0
Beretta model 93R
and a Colt .45 1911

I love em both.

No you do not.
You have 2 semi-automatics.


To be pedantic... You're thinking "fully automatic." Automatic, in some usage, is one where you needn't cock the firearm between shots. A double action* revolver is considered automatic by the people who use that definition. It is not as common a usage as the one you refer to though.

*I could have that backwards, the revolver where your trigger pull also brings back and releases the hammer
 
2012-07-28 10:13:30 PM  

Coelacanth: I had a friend who almost killed her dad with a plastic toy version of a .45.

Remember during the 1960s when good plastic was cheap and toy guns were being being made from molds of the real thing? My friend had a toy .45 when she was six or seven and then she found a loose .45 round in a desk drawer. She figured out how to put the bullet into the gun and then she hid between some trashcans and waited for her dad to come home from work.

Dad comes home from work. He walks up to the front door, his little girl pops out from behind the trashcans, says "Gotcha!" and pulls the trigger. The gun fires and shatters into a million pieces. Dad catches the round in the shoulder and crumples. A few minutes later, the neighbors are driving my friend's dad to the hospital where he recovers after a couple of weeks.

End.


You actually believed your friend when he told you that story?
 
2012-07-28 10:14:14 PM  

dustman81: Giltric: The original point and click interface.

It should be point and *BOOM*. If you squeeze the trigger and it goes *click*, you've got problems.


Ahh, Glock fan I see?
www.strelectvi.cz
 
2012-07-28 10:19:59 PM  
iheartscotch
9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards


2 things: That's the Hague Accords,not the Geneva Convention that bans hollowpoints & the US never signed on so we're free to use any kind of ammo we want.

2nd,on handgun accuracy,Wild Bill Hickok would like a word with you
 
2012-07-28 10:20:50 PM  

croesius: I do have a soft spot for my 1911:

[img41.imageshack.us image 800x451]


Very nice, same one I have. Wouldn't mind having a Pro or Ultra Carry II as a companion piece.

gluestickralph: A 1911 frame in 10mm is the ultimate combat pistol imho. I have a glock 20 but don't shoot it much due to full house 10mm rounds being known for ripping the dinky plastic frame apart in under 1000 rounds. (Yes i'm aware poly frames are great just not for something as powerful as non watered down 10mm ammo.) Though colt managed to build steel frame 10mm's that fell apart also.


I used to really want one of those Delta Elites, then I saw that AMT had a longslide 10mm version of their Hardballer (gun the Termnator used in the first movie) called the Javalina. I then wanted one of those. Kimber's Eclipse model has a 10mm version, I even saw one at a nearby Sportsmens Warehouse, but I've never looked into how much 10mm ammo runs. My .44 is already pretty much too expensive to shoot unless I look into reloading. Forty-five isn't that bad, yet. But I've always been intrigued by 10mm, going back to Sonny Crocket's Bren.
 
2012-07-28 10:21:45 PM  

croesius: dustman81: Giltric: The original point and click interface.

It should be point and *BOOM*. If you squeeze the trigger and it goes *click*, you've got problems.

Ahh, Glock fan I see?
[www.strelectvi.cz image 449x300]


Nope. I prefer my firearms to be American made, not Austrian.
 
2012-07-28 10:23:35 PM  

WillieWildcat: I've had my RIA M1911A1 Tactical for two years now. I've put about a thousand rounds through it. I bring it with me when I go hiking, fishing, etc. Easily the best $500 I've ever spent.

I'm extremely glad to hear the marines are choosing to go with this gun. From what I hear, the .45 ACP is the only round that'll stop someone who can't feel pain. 3-4 9mm might do the trick, but if you start shooting when they're within 15 ft. of you while they're running, you're probably not going hit them with that many rounds before they get to you.


Do you guys really believe this? The difference between a 9mm and .45 is about a 10th of an inch. It's not punching massive holes while the 9mm is not. It's about 100 grains heavier in the fmj version, but it travels at about half the speed, so the foot lbs on impact is not really that different. In fbi tests both penetrate the needed 12 inches in ballistic gel considered necessary to hit vitals, not too mention that unless you hit the spinal column or brain you are not going to get a "one shot stop."
 
2012-07-28 10:25:23 PM  

just_intonation: Yes, they do, but nothing beats the H&K USP .45 ACP.


Except the Mk 23

/love my USP
 
2012-07-28 10:31:53 PM  

Gaius: Subtle_Canary: I dont buy the myth of the magical one stop shot .45.

You have hundreds if not thousands of anecdotes of American soldiers fighting through wounds inflicted by weapons such as the Mauser (8mm) Arisaka (7mm) and AK's of various types. All of these weapons are heads and tails more powerful than ANY .45 cartridge, so pray tell explain why these weapons can sometimes wound, if even mortally so, in such a way that the injured can continue to heroically fight back but we assume a shot from a .45 is 'teh deadliness' concentrate?

Im sure if we looked at the other side there are just as many stories as Unteroffizer Fritz or whatever who, after taking multiple shots of yank .45 went on to kill whoever shot him, take his shiat and get an iron cross or whatever.

But that dont fit into the lore i suppose

the .45 acp is a larger projectile than most combat rifles, 230 grain v. 196 grain for the 8mm Mauser. Additionally, as mentioned before, the .45 travels at a much slower speed than rifles do. Unless the rifle bullet hits bone, it will blow right through a human leaving a smaller entrance and exit wound than the .45. The difference in damage is easily visible when looking at the cavitation the bullets cause when being fired through ballistic gel.

/at close (pistol) range.




It's my understanding that bullets fired from a rifle cartridge travel fast enough that what would be a temporary cavity from a slow pistol round is stretched beyond the elastic ability of the skin and becomes a permanant wound channel. Plus many rifle bullets are known for yawing and fragmenting on impact, like the 5.56mm.
 
2012-07-28 10:34:55 PM  

Giltric: AtlanticCoast63: Subby:

While the Air Force needs a mega-billion-dollar new fighter every few years,

While I bow to no one in my dislike of My Beloved Service's tendency to gold-plate the crap out of anything that moves, allow me to point out that the F-22/F-35 mix has been in development since 1986 and 1996 respectively, and the -22 took NINETEEN YEARS to get into service - the -35 still isn't, and may be delayed further. And keep in mind, the -22 is replacing the F-15, which went into service in 1976.

Putting that kind of timeline into perspective, that means we would have gone into WWII with this as our primary fighter:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x526]

This would have been our primary aircraft in Vietnam:
[www.militaryfactory.com image 800x533]

We would have fought Desert Storm with this:
[images.wikia.com image 757x490]

I'm pretty sure we did fight desert storm with F4's.



It was the Marine Corps EW platform until they "upgraded" to EA-6Bs, which they still fly.

The Israelis also still fly F-4s. It was a stupid fast aircraft so missions that require lubricious speed are in line with it's capabilities.
 
2012-07-28 10:41:02 PM  

UnspokenVoice: indylaw: You never know when the Al Qaeda Air Force is going to perfect their new camel-and-two-box-fans fighter. We must be prepared.

That really needs a picture.


Somethin' like this?
img854.imageshack.us
(Q&D)
 
2012-07-28 10:42:28 PM  

craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.


iheartscotch: craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.

9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards


fill those cans with water, and then that test might have some relevance.
 
2012-07-28 10:45:03 PM  

manimal2878: WillieWildcat: I've had my RIA M1911A1 Tactical for two years now. I've put about a thousand rounds through it. I bring it with me when I go hiking, fishing, etc. Easily the best $500 I've ever spent.

I'm extremely glad to hear the marines are choosing to go with this gun. From what I hear, the .45 ACP is the only round that'll stop someone who can't feel pain. 3-4 9mm might do the trick, but if you start shooting when they're within 15 ft. of you while they're running, you're probably not going hit them with that many rounds before they get to you.

Do you guys really believe this? The difference between a 9mm and .45 is about a 10th of an inch. It's not punching massive holes while the 9mm is not. It's about 100 grains heavier in the fmj version, but it travels at about half the speed, so the foot lbs on impact is not really that different. In fbi tests both penetrate the needed 12 inches in ballistic gel considered necessary to hit vitals, not too mention that unless you hit the spinal column or brain you are not going to get a "one shot stop."


It can be argued that a 9mm will expand, but a .45 will not shrink.

There would be alot less rap songs about getting shot 5,8,15 times...if rappers carried .45s.
 
2012-07-28 10:55:50 PM  
I would like to put on record that the Geneva Conventions in no way prohibit hollow points or expanding ammunition.

That is all.
 
2012-07-28 10:56:19 PM  
.45 fanboy here. No apologies.
 
2012-07-28 10:58:16 PM  

Mael99: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Nice gun, but its no glock.

I agree, and THANK GOD.

Colt makes real, quality firearms out of STEEL for people who know their firearms, use them, and develop proficiency and safe handling habits.

Then, there's Glock. That's about it. Lowest common denominator users who don't know polymer from their asses, and need something as simple as possible with no fancy buttons or safeties or anything that may confuse them! Cheap is good, gangsta! RIGHT?

You can see links to stories on here that are about Glocks being tucked in the waistband of idiots, and that's where they belong.

You can find the Colt 1911 on US Marines again, very soon.

Is that simple enough of a comparison for you, idiot?


It's funny; I took a handgun glass where the instructor is a SWAT operator in a major metropolitan area and one of the top tactical shooters in the nation. He shoots a Glock (both personally and professionally), as did almost everyone else in the class.

A lack of fancy buttons or external safety doesn't it a bad gun; it makes it simple and reliable, and easy to use under pressure. Seems like an ideal handgun to me.
 
2012-07-28 11:13:41 PM  
I guess I'm lucky that guns can't get fat the way pets can if they're a bit too well cared for. :D

Otherwise I'd be lugging a 75-pound 1911 to and from the local gun range.

Thanks again everyone.
 
2012-07-28 11:21:45 PM  

Coelacanth: I had a friend who almost killed her dad with a plastic toy version of a .45.

Remember during the 1960s when good plastic was cheap and toy guns were being being made from molds of the real thing? My friend had a toy .45 when she was six or seven and then she found a loose .45 round in a desk drawer. She figured out how to put the bullet into the gun and then she hid between some trashcans and waited for her dad to come home from work.

Dad comes home from work. He walks up to the front door, his little girl pops out from behind the trashcans, says "Gotcha!" and pulls the trigger. The gun fires and shatters into a million pieces. Dad catches the round in the shoulder and crumples. A few minutes later, the neighbors are driving my friend's dad to the hospital where he recovers after a couple of weeks.

End.


If that dad also had a little girl with him, that would have never happened.

(I was gonna go with something about plastic guns and airports, but I think I made the right choice)
 
2012-07-28 11:24:35 PM  

Frantic Freddie: iheartscotch
9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards

2 things: That's the Hague Accords,not the Geneva Convention that bans hollowpoints & the US never signed on so we're free to use any kind of ammo we want.

2nd,on handgun accuracy,Wild Bill Hickok would like a word with you



as to the first; It is still considered a war crime even if the country did not sign the Accord. Read rule 77;

RULE 77

as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years
 
2012-07-28 11:25:24 PM  
And ironically enough, one of the best .45 1911's ever was the Chinese made Norinco. It was made with the hardest, densest steel ever used on a production 1911.They're not fancy or too pretty, but they are ultra-reliable.
 
2012-07-28 11:28:15 PM  

manimal2878: craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.

iheartscotch: craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses ...


The test works either way, it works even better if the can is full of beans; 9mm is too hot and overpenetrates
 
2012-07-28 11:31:21 PM  

McBotulism: Gun porn thread? Mine:

[farm9.staticflickr.com image 640x478]

CZ 75B with cocobolo grips. Their price range is similar to a Glock compact, but they're all steel. Yeah, mine's "only" a 9mm, but I don't see any .45 snobs volunteering to step in front of one. Besides, unlike the military, I can use hollow points.


I do like the CZs. I have a 75B and a P07 both in 9mm. I like the P07, but the trigger guard doesn't need to be so damn big. Doesn't fit into any of my existing holsters. I really wish I could find an original short-slide 75.

Since we are doing gun porn, I shall post my favorite:
picturearchive.gunauction.com
The Mateba Unica 6. One of only 2 types semi-auto revolvers made (the other being made by Webly). Every time you fire, it automaticly cocks the hammer and rotates the cylinder, for a short trigger pull on the next shot. Fires from the bottom cylinder and the compensator really helps with muzzle climb. Mine is .44 mag, and they also come in .357 and .454.
The only downside are the wood hand grips. They are prone to cracking along the thumb line. Though I found a guy in FL who had some resin ones made, which are really nice.
Good luck finding one though. Metaba is not currently producing any thing right now. I bought it for about $1400 3 years ago, and the last time I saw one, it was going for $3600. I think there are only 1,500 of them in the US.
 
2012-07-28 11:36:11 PM  

iheartscotch: Frantic Freddie: iheartscotch
9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards

2 things: That's the Hague Accords,not the Geneva Convention that bans hollowpoints & the US never signed on so we're free to use any kind of ammo we want.

2nd,on handgun accuracy,Wild Bill Hickok would like a word with you


as to the first; It is still considered a war crime even if the country did not sign the Accord. Read rule 77;

RULE 77

as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years


fine. Go to youtube and look up Hickok45. He shoots pistols at dinner plate sized targets at 100+ yards all the time. quite accurately.
 
2012-07-28 11:43:57 PM  
iheartscotch
as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years

That incident was well documented by the witnesses.
 
2012-07-29 12:03:21 AM  

Subtle_Canary: iheartscotch: Frantic Freddie: iheartscotch
9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards

2 things: That's the Hague Accords,not the Geneva Convention that bans hollowpoints & the US never signed on so we're free to use any kind of ammo we want.

2nd,on handgun accuracy,Wild Bill Hickok would like a word with you


as to the first; It is still considered a war crime even if the country did not sign the Accord. Read rule 77;

RULE 77

as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years

fine. Go to youtube and look up Hickok45. He shoots pistols at dinner plate sized targets at 100+ yards all the time. quite accurately.


I don't mean to argue with you; but youtube is hardly a reputable source. It looks like he did it, and he may have; my point was 9 mm is too hot and overpenetrates, but back to your objection, yes a shot like that is possible, is that the optimum range for a pistol round, no.

/ 25 yards is long range when it comes to pistols; but i suppose if you practiced a lot at longer ranges, then it would be easier
 
2012-07-29 12:19:00 AM  

Frantic Freddie: iheartscotch
as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years

That incident was well documented by the witnesses.


Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable, of the 4 that saw the fight only 2 agreed on anything; like I said, it is possible that he did it; however, it is very unlikely. I can usually get 50 for 50 at 25 yards with a modern 1911; you're saying that Wild Bill hickock went 1 for 1 at 75 yards with one of a pair of colt 1851 navy cap and ball revolvers? I'm not saying that it couldn't have happened; I'm just saying that it sounds like a fish story.

/ wild bill did one thing above all others; that was to promote the image of wild bill, he was always the showman
 
2012-07-29 12:23:44 AM  
Gun porn thread? I'm game...

I have a Glock 19, love shooting it. My dad has a 1911, and I love it when he lets me shoot that one too... But my preference for stopping power, at least short range, is my Judge... 410 ammo has a tendancy to make short work of someone swinging at you, or whatever, within about 10 feet... 45 LC rounds spaced out in there for medium range targets, but you get the idea...

And for those saying this gun or that gun is too large for someone's hands, well, I have huge hands, and the Glock fits nicely, as does the Judge, in my hands, and the kick is manageable...
 
2012-07-29 12:36:33 AM  

fusillade762: "You can't beat a .45 cartridge,"

Well, unless you're talking about interoperability with other NATO forces.


That's a feature, not a bug. They can't use your own ammunition to shoot you.
 
2012-07-29 01:03:26 AM  

The_Sponge: I own a Beretta 92FS, and love shooting it.

/Would never claim it's better than a .45, though.
//Only category it wins is magazine capacity.


which isn't insignificant. i own one of each and like both. what i don't understand in the article is this: "Some reports suggest Marines are not happy with their main Beretta M9s for their lack of accuracy and stopping power." unless the Marine's gun are substandard that lack of accuracy isn't in the gun.
 
2012-07-29 01:07:42 AM  

Curious:

which isn't insignificant. i own one of each and like both. what i don't understand in the article is this: "Some reports suggest Marines are not happy with their main Beretta M9s for their lack of accuracy and stopping power." unless the Marine's gun are substandard that lack of accuracy isn't in the gun.


If you can't kill someone with a 9mm, you don't need a bigger gun, you need more practice with the 9mm.
 
2012-07-29 01:23:33 AM  

MythDragon: McBotulism: Gun porn thread? Mine:

[farm9.staticflickr.com image 640x478]

CZ 75B with cocobolo grips. Their price range is similar to a Glock compact, but they're all steel. Yeah, mine's "only" a 9mm, but I don't see any .45 snobs volunteering to step in front of one. Besides, unlike the military, I can use hollow points.

I do like the CZs. I have a 75B and a P07 both in 9mm. I like the P07, but the trigger guard doesn't need to be so damn big. Doesn't fit into any of my existing holsters. I really wish I could find an original short-slide 75.

Since we are doing gun porn, I shall post my favorite:
[picturearchive.gunauction.com image 644x484]
The Mateba Unica 6. One of only 2 types semi-auto revolvers made (the other being made by Webly). Every time you fire, it automaticly cocks the hammer and rotates the cylinder, for a short trigger pull on the next shot. Fires from the bottom cylinder and the compensator really helps with muzzle climb. Mine is .44 mag, and they also come in .357 and .454.
The only downside are the wood hand grips. They are prone to cracking along the thumb line. Though I found a guy in FL who had some resin ones made, which are really nice.
Good luck finding one though. Metaba is not currently producing any thing right now. I bought it for about $1400 3 years ago, and the last time I saw one, it was going for $3600. I think there are only 1,500 of them in the US.


Nice piece. Reminds me of Tougusa from GITS:SAC

images.wikia.com

/Sad to see he switched to the Seburo in the OVA.
//Image hot like The Major.
 
2012-07-29 01:38:31 AM  
It's a tool box; use whatever is right for the job. 9mm ammo is cheap and it's what the rest of NATO uses anyway.

And remember, kids; the Corps gets the crap that the Department of The Navy doesn't want. Someone mentioned the ol' Huey transport and the Cobra attack helicopters, Their both very fine cases in point. The Army and Navy didn't want 'em anymore so the Marines got the leftovers. It's a wonder to me how they even get to play with Abrams.
 
2012-07-29 02:06:08 AM  

Ashtrey: Thinking of buying a gun. I like the 1911 because if it wadn't reliable it wouldn't still be in use.

Need to spend some time at the range test driving before I make a decision though.


Go shoot someone elses first. I found the 1911 to be too heavy, too much recoil, not enough bullets. I went with the Glock-30 .45 cal, with 10 round mags, 2 more rounds, better recoil control, feels better in my hand, concealable, reliable, shoots anything you put in it, etc....

My main experience when other people bring 1911's to the range is that they are custom jobs and dont shoot right. Its kind of the Camaro of the gun world, every macho guy has one, everyone has done some work on theirs, and none of them run right.

Great History, but there are better guns out there
 
2012-07-29 02:07:50 AM  

JonathanChance: MythDragon: McBotulism: Gun porn thread? Mine:

[farm9.staticflickr.com image 640x478]

CZ 75B with cocobolo grips. Their price range is similar to a Glock compact, but they're all steel. Yeah, mine's "only" a 9mm, but I don't see any .45 snobs volunteering to step in front of one. Besides, unlike the military, I can use hollow points.

I do like the CZs. I have a 75B and a P07 both in 9mm. I like the P07, but the trigger guard doesn't need to be so damn big. Doesn't fit into any of my existing holsters. I really wish I could find an original short-slide 75.

Since we are doing gun porn, I shall post my favorite:
[picturearchive.gunauction.com image 644x484]
The Mateba Unica 6. One of only 2 types semi-auto revolvers made (the other being made by Webly). Every time you fire, it automaticly cocks the hammer and rotates the cylinder, for a short trigger pull on the next shot. Fires from the bottom cylinder and the compensator really helps with muzzle climb. Mine is .44 mag, and they also come in .357 and .454.
The only downside are the wood hand grips. They are prone to cracking along the thumb line. Though I found a guy in FL who had some resin ones made, which are really nice.
Good luck finding one though. Metaba is not currently producing any thing right now. I bought it for about $1400 3 years ago, and the last time I saw one, it was going for $3600. I think there are only 1,500 of them in the US.

Nice piece. Reminds me of Tougusa from GITS:SAC

[images.wikia.com image 440x246]

/Sad to see he switched to the Seburo in the OVA.
//Image hot like The Major.


Looks quite a bit like the Chiappa Rhino.

ttag.zippykidcdn.com

d3841262.u109.c8.hostexcellence.com

Very interesting weapon although I've yet to have the opportunity to fire one.
 
2012-07-29 04:22:55 AM  
Mine is a Kimber Eclipse full size. Have put tens of thousands of rounds downrange with it and it has never jammed once.
 
2012-07-29 04:44:18 AM  

archichris: Ashtrey: Thinking of buying a gun. I like the 1911 because if it wadn't reliable it wouldn't still be in use.

Need to spend some time at the range test driving before I make a decision though.

Go shoot someone elses first. I found the 1911 to be too heavy, too much recoil, not enough bullets. I went with the Glock-30 .45 cal, with 10 round mags, 2 more rounds, better recoil control, feels better in my hand, concealable, reliable, shoots anything you put in it, etc....

My main experience when other people bring 1911's to the range is that they are custom jobs and dont shoot right. Its kind of the Camaro of the gun world, every macho guy has one, everyone has done some work on theirs, and none of them run right.

Great History, but there are better guns out there


I have a Kimber 1911 clone. Did nothing to it but replace the crummy factory magazine. It works just fine, thank you. Recoil strikes me as quite manageable. Then again, .44 mag doesn't really bother me, either, except that with my wrists showing signs of minor arthritis, it seems best to keep it under 100 rounds during any given trip to the range. I also have a Glock 22. It has quirks. With practice, you'll eventually hit with it, but nobody has shot it accurately the first time they picked it up, no matter their level of experience with other weapons. I've never seen anybody having a similar experience with a 1911. The lack of a manual safety other than that joke of a "trigger safety" also makes me unwilling to consider carrying it. If you're properly trained and habituated, you don't forget to take the safety off. It just happens. You still try and do it with the Glock, and it's a little disconcerting that there's nothing there.
 
2012-07-29 05:02:15 AM  

craigdamage: 9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.


The 7.62×25mm Tokarev is a far better choice for a personal defense round (if we are to consider only military cartridges). It will send a 30 caliber bullet downrange at over 1,500 fps so targets beyond fifty meters can be engaged. If cartridges that have never been used by a military are considered, then there are even better choices for a PDW (Personal Defense Weapon).

Larger diameter bullets mean there's a better chance a hit will incapacitate but it's better to hit your intended target with a smaller diameter bullet where you want to than hit an arm or leg with a bigger bullet. A centerline hit with a smaller bullet will stop almost anyone.
 
2012-07-29 05:19:30 AM  
Meanwhile, I guard Naval supply depots with a 9mm Beretta. I hate that gun so much, I considered bringing my Sig 226 to work with me.
 
2012-07-29 06:00:50 AM  

Luthiel: Is this the gun porn thread?

[images.wikia.com image 750x600]

Want.


Have, and also have nothing but problems with it.
 
2012-07-29 06:19:41 AM  

scatters: A lack of fancy buttons or external safety doesn't it a bad gun; it makes it simple and reliable, and easy to use under pressure. Seems like an ideal handgun to me.


Until it simply discharges because the trigger gets snagged on something. The glock safety isn't to be trusted. Glock striker fire also suffers from being neither fish nor foul. Its got a long and spongy pull and technically is always carried in the half cocked position. A proper single/double action pistol could get by without any safety but it would have a stiff first shot trigger.

A 1911 on the other hand has a manual safety (usually a military requirement anyway) and a crisp single action only trigger.
A bit of practice and the safety becomes second nature, while an exposed hammer gives you second strike capability.

That said, the 1911 isn't for everyone. Its a bit of a beast to handle and getting its trademark accuracy will require a certain amount of skill.
Given the added value of its history in serving Americans through the last century of war, I'd say its a perfect weapon for the Marines.
 
2012-07-29 08:03:17 AM  
Somebody could have used one of them in Aurora a few days ago
 
2012-07-29 09:00:18 AM  
i47.photobucket.com

gun thread is incomplete without this guy.
 
2012-07-29 09:25:40 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Plus its cheap, available and there's more ammo for it than you can shake a stick at. I'm an admirer of Soviet lo-tech, honestly. When the F-117 first arrived, there was a documentary about how ground crews had to sweep the runway to make sure there were no loose bolts or rocks that could get sucked into the intakes. Someone commented how Soviet fighters could take a shovel full of gravel into their engines and keep flying--they couldn't get parts or maintenance, so the damn things were virtually invulnerable.


Apocryphal. Russian jet engines have always been high maintenance garbage.
 
2012-07-29 09:48:53 AM  
Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.
 
2012-07-29 10:03:34 AM  
These are mine (and yes I took this picture):

i133.photobucket.com

I took a defensive handgun class with it and it shot flawlessly. The 4 Glock shooters had problems (mostly from limp wristing I think) and one guy had a Walther that would jam after about 6 rounds or so. Three others had Springfield XDs (of which I have three) and they had no issues. Love my Springers.
 
2012-07-29 10:10:03 AM  

ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.


Bin Laden was killed with a pistol.
 
2012-07-29 10:40:35 AM  

voodoo_curse: Meanwhile, I guard Naval supply depots with a 9mm Beretta. I hate that gun so much, I considered bringing my Sig 226 to work with me.


What do you hate about the M9?
 
2012-07-29 10:44:06 AM  

ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.


I'd suppose some of it is tradition.
Pistols are issued mainly for positions where carrying a full sized rifle is not convenient, and as backup weapons if the primary fails.
There has been a push to arm drivers and officers with smaller-than-rifle personal defense weapons, but most of those come with proprietary rounds. There are some exceptions like the magpul PDR and shortened M4 style weapons.
Those options are still up in the air, and still not as nimble as a pistol.

As wars move indoors and even underground, you need Compact firepower.
 
2012-07-29 11:07:02 AM  

ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.


ask this guy:

img219.exs.cx
 
2012-07-29 11:14:33 AM  
Hardu-r-r-r-p 2012-07-29 08:03:17 AM

Somebody could have used one of them in Aurora a few days ago

TEAR GAS YOU DOLT
 
2012-07-29 11:16:10 AM  

Subtle_Canary: ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.

ask this guy:

[img219.exs.cx image 800x517]


Even wounded he maintains trigger discipline.

+1000
 
2012-07-29 11:18:44 AM  
ko_kyi Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.



regular "grunts-infantry"....not much.

Special Forces,SEALS,clandestine operations etc.....quite a bit more.


I do remember I worked with a guy who was a "loader" on an M1 Abrams during the first gulf war.
He said they were patrolling when he and his crew heard a "blast" and when he opened up the top lid to investigate he saw a huge cloud of sand and debris falling all around the tank. An RPG round had just missed them and struck a dune on their flank. As he turned around to investigate he saw an Iraqi loading another warhead onto his RPG. They only had about two seconds before the RPG would have fired and not enough time to bear down with the M60 machine gun mount on the turret which was acing the opposite direction. He drew his M9 Berretta and fired into the ground and "walked" the bullet impacts to the target.
 
2012-07-29 12:49:06 PM  
craigdamage

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc...

You may want to do a quick search on the fbi shooting in florida (Miami IIRC) where several oinkers got their asses handed to them.

lol
 
2012-07-29 12:57:12 PM  

Subtle_Canary: A regular mil-spec plain jane 1911a1 is not THAT great a fire arm. Its a good pistol sure but its not the second coming of christ its fanbois think it is (hell, JMB later went on to mostly create the Hi-Power which is a better pistol by far). Its heavy, low capacity, not any more accurate than any of its competitors and a biatch to maintain.
When people cream themselves over the notoriety of the '.45' they are actually thinking of custom job racer guns that cost 3 times as much and arent reliable enough to be a fighting mans gun.


You're missing the beauty of weapon. A 1911 isn't meant to be kept under glass. It has lots of safety features and loose tolerance; it can be broken way down and cleaned with a toothbrush. You can sleep with it. You can drop it in a mud puddle, toss it in a sand pile - then pick it up and knock someone down by shooting them in the pinky finger. It's not a range gun - it's a tool. The only thing I don't miss from the years I lived with one is the size and weight. I never found it a biatch to maintain. I love my Sig, but it's a biatch to maintain. Then again that's like comparing a Porsche to a F250 4X4. It's fun to drive a Porsche, until I have to haul a load of lumber to the top of a mountain.
 
2012-07-29 01:45:32 PM  
Gee.

That pic of the hurt Marine makes kitten want to go browbeat a few dozen
Congressmen into budgeting lots more $$ for the Veterans Administration.

I bet any enemy who was left alive sh*t itself and ran away upon
seeing him and his buddies walk out of there.
 
2012-07-29 01:55:46 PM  
OnlyM3 You may want to do a quick search on the fbi shooting in florida (Miami IIRC) where several oinkers got their asses handed to them.


That is why I said MILITARY and not law enforcement.


You are referring to the "Miami Shootout" of 1986. (google that)
Contrary to popular belief,that incident did NOT illustrate the failure of the 9mm (a single 9mm cross-torso shot failed to stop an armed man instantly)

MANY failures occurred on that day. Mostly tactical.
.357 magnum failed.
.223 failed.
12 gauge 00 buck failed.

NO FBI agent or "bad-guy" was instantly killed in that shootout.

Also,it is now believed by some that the "infamous" 9mm round that failed had actually fully penetrated the car door before striking the guy with the Mini-14. Had it been a .45 it would have NEVER even struck the perp. (the made for TV movie about the incident shows the robber climbing out the window when he was struck but I have heard that that may have been false)
 
2012-07-29 02:08:35 PM  

Ficoce: Subtle_Canary: A regular mil-spec plain jane 1911a1 is not THAT great a fire arm. Its a good pistol sure but its not the second coming of christ its fanbois think it is (hell, JMB later went on to mostly create the Hi-Power which is a better pistol by far). Its heavy, low capacity, not any more accurate than any of its competitors and a biatch to maintain.
When people cream themselves over the notoriety of the '.45' they are actually thinking of custom job racer guns that cost 3 times as much and arent reliable enough to be a fighting mans gun.

You're missing the beauty of weapon. A 1911 isn't meant to be kept under glass. It has lots of safety features and loose tolerance; it can be broken way down and cleaned with a toothbrush. You can sleep with it. You can drop it in a mud puddle, toss it in a sand pile - then pick it up and knock someone down by shooting them in the pinky finger. It's not a range gun - it's a tool. The only thing I don't miss from the years I lived with one is the size and weight. I never found it a biatch to maintain. I love my Sig, but it's a biatch to maintain. Then again that's like comparing a Porsche to a F250 4X4. It's fun to drive a Porsche, until I have to haul a load of lumber to the top of a mountain.


Thats the joke. If everybody had a mil-spec 1911 the gun would be considered a decent piece of kit. Not God like and certainly not something theyd drop 2 grand on. But everybody and their mother gets some kind of super precision made custom kit gun, likes how it shoots and wonders why the military ever gave it up. They gave it up because they didnt want to put a grand worth of custom work into every pistol that would be issued to make it run as well as a stock modern auto like a glock or sig.

You will NEVER find a 1911 that has passed the kind of survivability and reliability test a Glock has passed. NEVER.

1911's are GREAT pistols for special forces and troops who will use them as a primary weapon like MP's. Standard infantry? no. A ruggadized 1911 is still more fragile than a Glock, not any more accurate, less capacity, and heavier. You can teach a 10 year old how to strip and clean a Glock in 30 minutes. most of the people that i know that actually OWN a 1911 still cant do it properly without watching a youtube video force feed it to them.

A 1911 is like high performance car. Its not meant to be hauling lumber, getting dirty, and running with inferior gasoline on unpaved roads.
 
2012-07-29 02:44:21 PM  

Subtle_Canary: Ficoce: Subtle_Canary: A regular mil-spec plain jane 1911a1 is not THAT great a fire arm. Its a good pistol sure but its not the second coming of christ its fanbois think it is (hell, JMB later went on to mostly create the Hi-Power which is a better pistol by far). Its heavy, low capacity, not any more accurate than any of its competitors and a biatch to maintain.
When people cream themselves over the notoriety of the '.45' they are actually thinking of custom job racer guns that cost 3 times as much and arent reliable enough to be a fighting mans gun.

You're missing the beauty of weapon. A 1911 isn't meant to be kept under glass. It has lots of safety features and loose tolerance; it can be broken way down and cleaned with a toothbrush. You can sleep with it. You can drop it in a mud puddle, toss it in a sand pile - then pick it up and knock someone down by shooting them in the pinky finger. It's not a range gun - it's a tool. The only thing I don't miss from the years I lived with one is the size and weight. I never found it a biatch to maintain. I love my Sig, but it's a biatch to maintain. Then again that's like comparing a Porsche to a F250 4X4. It's fun to drive a Porsche, until I have to haul a load of lumber to the top of a mountain.

Thats the joke. If everybody had a mil-spec 1911 the gun would be considered a decent piece of kit. Not God like and certainly not something theyd drop 2 grand on. But everybody and their mother gets some kind of super precision made custom kit gun, likes how it shoots and wonders why the military ever gave it up. They gave it up because they didnt want to put a grand worth of custom work into every pistol that would be issued to make it run as well as a stock modern auto like a glock or sig.

You will NEVER find a 1911 that has passed the kind of survivability and reliability test a Glock has passed. NEVER.

1911's are GREAT pistols for special forces and troops who will use them as a primary weapon like MP's. Standard infan try? no. A ruggadized 1911 is still more fragile than a Glock, not any more accurate, less capacity, and heavier. You can teach a 10 year old how to strip and clean a Glock in 30 minutes. most of the people that i know that actually OWN a 1911 still cant do it properly without watching a youtube video force feed it to them.

A 1911 is like high performance car. Its not meant to be hauling lumber, getting dirty, and running with inferior gasoline on unpaved roads.


That's crap. I own both. There's very little difference in how hard they are to strip. The major difference is that the Glock doesn't have a barrel bushing to remove. If you can't do it without instructions, you're a mechanical cretin. It's not exactly tearing down a Ferrari engine or anything.
 
2012-07-29 02:53:37 PM  

ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.


i.imgur.com
Older than 20 years, but still very relevant.
 
2012-07-29 03:54:52 PM  

bubo_sibiricus: Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.

Good luck reloading that 6 shooter in a firefight.


Since I'm not in the military, I go by the philosophy that if you need more than six shots, you probably shouldn't be in that fight.
 
2012-07-29 04:31:35 PM  
This is a great weapon.

www.islandviewent.com
 
2012-07-29 04:50:28 PM  
The old 9mm vs. .45ACP argument again. I have a simple response to that: it doesn't matter what the caliber or velocity, it's a piece of metal where a piece of metal wasn't before and isn't supposed to be injected at high velocity. Period. Relative lethality? .22LR has probably killed more people than any other round? Stopping power? relative to the situation.

The USMC has a specific mission. In order to accomplish that mission, they need specific tools. They are very good at this mission. They've done it for over two hundred years. They saw that one of their tools was lacking and replaced it with another they already had experience with. To me, it is as simple as that.

I've owned a 1911, a Series 70 Commander, back in the 80's. It was a lemon. No matter what I did or had done professionally would make that thing fire more than three rounds without jamming. New magazines, polished feed ramps, tuning, every different type of ammunition made at the time and the best I could get out of it was a string of five consecutive using 230g FMJ surplus. At the time, I needed a reliable carry gun. I ended up trading it for a CA Undercover .38, a Chief's Special clone. The guy at the pawn shop thought he'd ripped me off with that deal but I knew better. That fool carried it for months before shooting it and ended up calling me a thief.

I have also shot out-of-the-box .45s that ran perfectly on everything from reduced velocity soft lead handloads to +P+ planetcrackers. The 1911 is a good pistol. I own a Glock 17 and Keltec P11, bot 9mms. They work just fine for me. I never bother with shots farther than 50-100 feet (not yards) with a pistol simply because that's their truly practical range for me. Anything farther away I'd either not bother with or go get a rifle. This is just my humble opinion.
 
2012-07-29 05:09:13 PM  

redlegrick: The old 9mm vs. .45ACP argument again. I have a simple response to that: it doesn't matter what the caliber or velocity, it's a piece of metal where a piece of metal wasn't before and isn't supposed to be injected at high velocity. Period. Relative lethality? .22LR has probably killed more people than any other round? Stopping power? relative to the situation.

The USMC has a specific mission. In order to accomplish that mission, they need specific tools. They are very good at this mission. They've done it for over two hundred years. They saw that one of their tools was lacking and replaced it with another they already had experience with. To me, it is as simple as that.



I guess you've never been around the awarding of a military contract, have you? This has a lot more to do with budget politics and lobbying by Colt than any real need to switch back to the 1911. There are already .45 ACP pistols in use by the SEALs and other Special Forces, the H&K Mark 23 Mod 0 SOCOM, which by all accounts is one great pistol. Just because Colt won the contract doesn't mean it's the best choice for the Marines; it could just mean that Connecticut has good lobbyists, or that the general approving the order has a sentimental attachment to 1911s, or that Colt submitted a lowball bid (the Marines are always short of money). U.S. company vs. German no doubt had a lot to do with it.

Personally, I much preferred the WWII-era 1911A1s that I carried as a member of ship's guard force in the mid-80s to the much newer M9 that I carried in Iraq in 2006-07. But I never fired either one at anything other than paper, so I'm hardly an expert on their combat effectiveness.
 
2012-07-29 05:32:50 PM  
A 1911 is more fragile than a Glock!?

A hunk of steel whose design has been kicking around in the dirt and mud for 100 years is
more fragile than a chunk of pretty dang modern sometimes but not always polymer?

Now I know Stupid_Canary is full of shiat.
 
2012-07-29 05:53:44 PM  

Kittypie070: A 1911 is more fragile than a Glock!?

A hunk of steel whose design has been kicking around in the dirt and mud for 100 years is
more fragile than a chunk of pretty dang modern sometimes but not always polymer?

Now I know Stupid_Canary is full of shiat.


Just look up ANY torture test involving pistols. 1911's are so low on the list as to not even warrant mention. They jam all the time if you dont feed them perfect ammo or get them dirty. Its a sad fact. look it up. You can bury a Glock in mud, back the mud hard, leave it there a month, break it out, shake the grit out and fire an entire magazine with no problem. You cant even throw sand on a modern 1911 without making it choke and die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdh2X9CDe38&feature=related for example. Its Easy to find Glock torture test because nobody minds beating the hell out of a Glock. Bout the only 'stress test' you will see of a 1911 is some yokel tossing it into semi-dirty water.
 
2012-07-29 06:38:13 PM  
I am too lazy to grab the info, but MEUSOC already did a torture test on the M1911, and they use specific parts from specific manufacturers. They do f/t armory jobs on these pistols to keep them running well.

I believe the FBI HR team did the same thing and the Springfield 1911 won that contract. They sell those as the Springfield Professional. These are a time tested design and most pistols are based off it's design. The HP is a derivative, and the CZ a copy of that.

Manufactured right, these pistols are tough as nails. My SA 1911 Loaded has about 2500 rounds through and no FTE, FTF, or any type of stoppage.
 
2012-07-29 08:04:16 PM  

Subtle_Canary: Kittypie070: A 1911 is more fragile than a Glock!?

A hunk of steel whose design has been kicking around in the dirt and mud for 100 years is
more fragile than a chunk of pretty dang modern sometimes but not always polymer?

Now I know Stupid_Canary is full of shiat.

Just look up ANY torture test involving pistols. 1911's are so low on the list as to not even warrant mention. They jam all the time if you dont feed them perfect ammo or get them dirty. Its a sad fact. look it up. You can bury a Glock in mud, back the mud hard, leave it there a month, break it out, shake the grit out and fire an entire magazine with no problem. You cant even throw sand on a modern 1911 without making it choke and die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdh2X9CDe38&feature=related for example. Its Easy to find Glock torture test because nobody minds beating the hell out of a Glock. Bout the only 'stress test' you will see of a 1911 is some yokel tossing it into semi-dirty water.


Um, about that:

Under the Joint Service Small Arms Program which was run by the U.S. Air Force, a number of 9 mm pistol designs were trialed in the late 1970s to find a replacement for the M1911. The 9 mm round was selected for compliance with NATO standardization. In 1980, the Beretta 92S-1 design was chosen over entries from Colt, Smith & Wesson, various Fabrique Nationale de Herstal models, the Star M28, and Heckler & Koch models. The result, however, was challenged by the Army and new tests were to be done (this time run by the Army rather than the Air Force). In the new test all the pistols were rejected, and in a second test a year later they were all rejected again. Another year later, in 1984, the trials started again with updated entries from S&W, Beretta, SIG-Sauer, H&K, Walther, Steyr, and FN. Beretta won this competition but there was a new trial, the XM10 competition, in 1988. This resulted in two different trials that were more limited, but resulted in the Beretta design being kept (with an update to it happening during the same time frame).

Prior to its widespread adoption by the US military, questions were raised in a Government Accounting Office report regarding a number of incidents where slide failures caused injuries to Naval Special Warfare personnel and were later observed in additional testing. These failures included both military and civilian Beretta models with very high round counts and provoked a modification in the M9 design to prevent slide failure from causing injuries. These incidents also resulted in the Naval Special Warfare Forces seeking "an improved 9-mm weapon that (1) can withstand extensive training firings, (2) has a long service life, and (3) provides reliable functioning in life-threatening situations." (GAO NSAID-89-59 p. 9). This resulted in the adoption of a variant of the SIG-Sauer P226.
 
2012-07-29 08:05:13 PM  
Whoops, thought you were on about the Beretta.
 
2012-07-29 10:46:48 PM  
Since this seems to have deteriorated to a 1911 vs. Glock/9mm thread....

I like the 1911. It's everything it's cracked up to be. For the Marine's purposes I can't think of a better choice.

I love my glock 19. At the end of the day I had to go with ergonomics. The gun you can handle best when you're half asleep, and unnerved is the one to go with. That dosen't invalidate anyone else's choices.

10 years, thousands of rounds, the Glock still handles like new. Get the Hogue wrap around grip so it dosen't feel like Tupperware.
 
2012-07-30 07:38:43 AM  
I can't believe I missed a .45 vs 9mm flame war...

Glad to hear that the USMC is going back to the .45 (at least for more than just the snake eaters). Now if the Army would just do the same.

Personally my favorite .45 is the USP but that is just because it fits my hand like a glove & I got a hell of a deal on it at the time I was looking. A nicely tricked out 1911 is certainly on my 'someday' list but until the kids move out/are done with school.....
 
2012-07-30 08:31:17 AM  

Giltric: It can be argued that a 9mm will expand, but a .45 will not shrink.

There would be alot less rap songs about getting shot 5,8,15 times...if rappers carried .45s.


It could but that would only be argued by an idiot. If you are comparing FMJ to FMJ neither will expand much. HP to HP both expand to within about a tenth of an inch of the same size.
 
2012-07-30 08:35:34 AM  

iheartscotch: too hot and overpenetrates,


What does this mean? After the bullet goes through vital organs why does it matter where else it goes?
 
2012-07-30 08:48:37 AM  

OnlyM3: craigdamage

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc...
You may want to do a quick search on the fbi shooting in florida (Miami IIRC) where several oinkers got their asses handed to them.

lol


Maybe you should research it again if you think it says anything about 9mm instead of shot placement.
 
2012-07-30 10:06:00 AM  
Maybe you should research it again if you think it says anything about 9mm instead of shot placement.


That IS what I said. The COMPLETE article details ALL shots fired,ALL targets struck and ALL the various weapons and cartridges used.

12 gauge 00 buck is far more lethal than any pistol cartridge but if you only strike the target on the bottom of the foot,you will NOT stop the aggressor.

gunzone.com even shows detailed forensic diagrams of the 9mm 'sivertip" jhp wound channel through the perp.

The Miami Shootout of 1986 is the single most studied and written about shooting in law enforcement history. (sole exception is the JFK assasination)
 
2012-07-30 04:28:08 PM  
manimal2878

>>> OnlyM3: craigdamage
>>> You may want to do a quick search on the fbi shooting in florida (Miami IIRC) where several oinkers
>>> got their asses handed to them.

Maybe you should research it again if you think it says anything about 9mm instead of shot placement.
Simple question. If the feds didn't think 9 failed, why'd they push for the 10mm as a replacement?

Now back to 1911's as god's gun
The Gospel Of John (Moses Browning)

1) In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it worketh. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2) And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

3) And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

4) Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.

5) And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and loose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle. (a)

6) And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

7) Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

8) And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.

9) And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

10) But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continued to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

11) And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

12) Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.


13 And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation (b) by the followers of John.



(a) Several old manuscripts add the following text. "And they [also rendered as "these men"] didst chamber it for cartridges who's calibers startith with numbers less than the Holy Number 4. And lo the Lord did cause great grief amongst these men when their enemies who were struck in battle with these lesser numbers didst not fall but did continue to cause great harm."

(b) or Hell
 
2012-07-30 09:27:23 PM  
Simple question. If the feds didn't think 9 failed, why'd they push for the 10mm as a replacement?




Politics. They had to blame something. *mm was the scapegoat. They really screwed the pooch that day. Then when they went with the 10mm they screwed up again. (too large a frame and too heavy recoil) New recruits at the academy couldn't handle it. The 10mm was then downloaded which was stupid. You still had this heavy and too large hunk of steel. That is how the .40 was born. .40 is ballistically the same as the light 10mm but in a more compact 9mm sized weapon.


Now back to 1911's as god's gun
The Gospel Of John (Moses Browning)



....yeah,about John Moses Browning:

Browning designed the 1911 pistol AND the .45 ACP cartidge....however, it was his 9mm pistol HP-35 he named The "High Power" with its 13 round magazine.


also...btw
when you see old black and white photos from the 30s,40s,50s and 60s of Highway Patrolmen,G-Men and Texas Rangers carrying 1911s you are WRONG to assume they are all .45s
Most are actually .38 super Autos. Don't believe me? Go visit the Texas Ranger museum in Waco,TX.
.38 SA outnumbers .45 at about 3 to 1.
 
2012-07-30 10:50:33 PM  

OnlyM3: Simple question. If the feds didn't think 9 failed, why'd they push for the 10mm as a replacement?


Because sometimes government agencies are told to make changes even if they aren't effective. It's part of the beuracratic machine. Notice they later left 10mm.
 
2012-07-31 07:50:30 AM  

manimal2878: Notice they later left 10mm.


Isn't .40S&W almost identical to 10mm in ballistics but a with a shorter case?
 
2012-07-31 09:49:44 AM  

Isn't .40S&W almost identical to 10mm in ballistics but a with a shorter case?





.40 is same as the "downloaded" 10mm. (see above post)
 
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