Mael99: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Nice gun, but its no glock.

I agree, and THANK GOD.

Colt makes real, quality firearms out of STEEL for people who know their firearms, use them, and develop proficiency and safe handling habits.

Then, there's Glock. That's about it. Lowest common denominator users who don't know polymer from their asses, and need something as simple as possible with no fancy buttons or safeties or anything that may confuse them! Cheap is good, gangsta! RIGHT?

You can see links to stories on here that are about Glocks being tucked in the waistband of idiots, and that's where they belong.

You can find the Colt 1911 on US Marines again, very soon.

Is that simple enough of a comparison for you, idiot?

It's funny; I took a handgun glass where the instructor is a SWAT operator in a major metropolitan area and one of the top tactical shooters in the nation. He shoots a Glock (both personally and professionally), as did almost everyone else in the class.

A lack of fancy buttons or external safety doesn't it a bad gun; it makes it simple and reliable, and easy to use under pressure. Seems like an ideal handgun to me.

Coelacanth: I had a friend who almost killed her dad with a plastic toy version of a .45.

Remember during the 1960s when good plastic was cheap and toy guns were being being made from molds of the real thing? My friend had a toy .45 when she was six or seven and then she found a loose .45 round in a desk drawer. She figured out how to put the bullet into the gun and then she hid between some trashcans and waited for her dad to come home from work.

Dad comes home from work. He walks up to the front door, his little girl pops out from behind the trashcans, says "Gotcha!" and pulls the trigger. The gun fires and shatters into a million pieces. Dad catches the round in the shoulder and crumples. A few minutes later, the neighbors are driving my friend's dad to the hospital where he recovers after a couple of weeks.

End.

If that dad also had a little girl with him, that would have never happened.

(I was gonna go with something about plastic guns and airports, but I think I made the right choice)

Frantic Freddie: iheartscotch
9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards

2 things: That's the Hague Accords,not the Geneva Convention that bans hollowpoints & the US never signed on so we're free to use any kind of ammo we want.

2nd,on handgun accuracy,Wild Bill Hickok would like a word with you


as to the first; It is still considered a war crime even if the country did not sign the Accord. Read rule 77;

RULE 77

as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years

And ironically enough, one of the best .45 1911's ever was the Chinese made Norinco. It was made with the hardest, densest steel ever used on a production 1911.They're not fancy or too pretty, but they are ultra-reliable.

manimal2878: craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses Browning designed the .45 ACP cartridge and the 1911.
However,when Browning created the 9mm HP 35 he named it "High Power"

Please note. ALL ABOVE IS FACTS Nowhere do I interject my opinion.
Do your own research before arguing.

Here is my OPINION:

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc......



BTW.......for home defense I load my HK USP Compact .45 with 185 gr +P JHP.

iheartscotch: craigdamage: .45 ACP US G.I. Ball 230 gr FMJ from 1911 5" barrel 830 fps...350 ft lbs impact

9mm NATO 124 gr FMJ from 4.9" barrel 1235 fps 420 ft lbs impact

420>350....sorry.


In 1946 US Army Ordinance conducted ballistic tests with captured arms and munitions left over from WWII.

.45 ACP could penetrate a US issue steel helmet at a maximum range of 25 yards.
9mm could penetrate the same helmet at 110 yards.

British and Canadian forces went into the second world war armed with BOTH 9mm Brownings and .45 Colt 1911s. It was often noted that the .45 ACP would bounce off the heavy German "Stahhelm" (steel helmet) while 9mm from pistol or Sten would go completely through one side,through the skull of the Hun and then out the other side.

John Moses ...

The test works either way, it works even better if the can is full of beans; 9mm is too hot and overpenetrates

McBotulism: Gun porn thread? Mine:

[farm9.staticflickr.com image 640x478]

CZ 75B with cocobolo grips. Their price range is similar to a Glock compact, but they're all steel. Yeah, mine's "only" a 9mm, but I don't see any .45 snobs volunteering to step in front of one. Besides, unlike the military, I can use hollow points.

I do like the CZs. I have a 75B and a P07 both in 9mm. I like the P07, but the trigger guard doesn't need to be so damn big. Doesn't fit into any of my existing holsters. I really wish I could find an original short-slide 75.

Since we are doing gun porn, I shall post my favorite:

The Mateba Unica 6. One of only 2 types semi-auto revolvers made (the other being made by Webly). Every time you fire, it automaticly cocks the hammer and rotates the cylinder, for a short trigger pull on the next shot. Fires from the bottom cylinder and the compensator really helps with muzzle climb. Mine is .44 mag, and they also come in .357 and .454.
The only downside are the wood hand grips. They are prone to cracking along the thumb line. Though I found a guy in FL who had some resin ones made, which are really nice.
Good luck finding one though. Metaba is not currently producing any thing right now. I bought it for about $1400 3 years ago, and the last time I saw one, it was going for $3600. I think there are only 1,500 of them in the US.

iheartscotch: Frantic Freddie: iheartscotch
9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards

2 things: That's the Hague Accords,not the Geneva Convention that bans hollowpoints & the US never signed on so we're free to use any kind of ammo we want.

2nd,on handgun accuracy,Wild Bill Hickok would like a word with you


as to the first; It is still considered a war crime even if the country did not sign the Accord. Read rule 77;

RULE 77

as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years

fine. Go to youtube and look up Hickok45. He shoots pistols at dinner plate sized targets at 100+ yards all the time. quite accurately.

iheartscotch
as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years

That incident was well documented by the witnesses.

Subtle_Canary: iheartscotch: Frantic Freddie: iheartscotch
9 mm is too hot; meaning it goes straight through the intended target, causing minimal damage. Of course if you hit them in the head they are going down. Yes, .45 acp has a lower ft/s velocity; but because of that, it causes more damage. Do an experiment; get 2 cans, shoot the first with a 9 mm,then shoot the other with the .45 and compare the "wounds" using a full metal jacket as hollow points are illegal to use in warfare as per the Geneva convetion. The 9mm goes straight threw every time; while the .45 blows out the back of the can. That's why the US when .45 over 9 mm

/ no pistol that I know of, then or now, is accurate at 100 yards

2 things: That's the Hague Accords,not the Geneva Convention that bans hollowpoints & the US never signed on so we're free to use any kind of ammo we want.

2nd,on handgun accuracy,Wild Bill Hickok would like a word with you


as to the first; It is still considered a war crime even if the country did not sign the Accord. Read rule 77;

RULE 77

as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years

fine. Go to youtube and look up Hickok45. He shoots pistols at dinner plate sized targets at 100+ yards all the time. quite accurately.

I don't mean to argue with you; but youtube is hardly a reputable source. It looks like he did it, and he may have; my point was 9 mm is too hot and overpenetrates, but back to your objection, yes a shot like that is possible, is that the optimum range for a pistol round, no.

/ 25 yards is long range when it comes to pistols; but i suppose if you practiced a lot at longer ranges, then it would be easier

Frantic Freddie: iheartscotch
as to the second; wild bill was the old west version of a used car sales man; his stories have been inflated over the years

That incident was well documented by the witnesses.

Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable, of the 4 that saw the fight only 2 agreed on anything; like I said, it is possible that he did it; however, it is very unlikely. I can usually get 50 for 50 at 25 yards with a modern 1911; you're saying that Wild Bill hickock went 1 for 1 at 75 yards with one of a pair of colt 1851 navy cap and ball revolvers? I'm not saying that it couldn't have happened; I'm just saying that it sounds like a fish story.

/ wild bill did one thing above all others; that was to promote the image of wild bill, he was always the showman

Gun porn thread? I'm game...

I have a Glock 19, love shooting it. My dad has a 1911, and I love it when he lets me shoot that one too... But my preference for stopping power, at least short range, is my Judge... 410 ammo has a tendancy to make short work of someone swinging at you, or whatever, within about 10 feet... 45 LC rounds spaced out in there for medium range targets, but you get the idea...

And for those saying this gun or that gun is too large for someone's hands, well, I have huge hands, and the Glock fits nicely, as does the Judge, in my hands, and the kick is manageable...

fusillade762: "You can't beat a .45 cartridge,"

Well, unless you're talking about interoperability with other NATO forces.

That's a feature, not a bug. They can't use your own ammunition to shoot you.

Curious:

which isn't insignificant. i own one of each and like both. what i don't understand in the article is this: "Some reports suggest Marines are not happy with their main Beretta M9s for their lack of accuracy and stopping power." unless the Marine's gun are substandard that lack of accuracy isn't in the gun.

If you can't kill someone with a 9mm, you don't need a bigger gun, you need more practice with the 9mm.

MythDragon: McBotulism: Gun porn thread? Mine:

[farm9.staticflickr.com image 640x478]

CZ 75B with cocobolo grips. Their price range is similar to a Glock compact, but they're all steel. Yeah, mine's "only" a 9mm, but I don't see any .45 snobs volunteering to step in front of one. Besides, unlike the military, I can use hollow points.

I do like the CZs. I have a 75B and a P07 both in 9mm. I like the P07, but the trigger guard doesn't need to be so damn big. Doesn't fit into any of my existing holsters. I really wish I could find an original short-slide 75.

Since we are doing gun porn, I shall post my favorite:
[picturearchive.gunauction.com image 644x484]
The Mateba Unica 6. One of only 2 types semi-auto revolvers made (the other being made by Webly). Every time you fire, it automaticly cocks the hammer and rotates the cylinder, for a short trigger pull on the next shot. Fires from the bottom cylinder and the compensator really helps with muzzle climb. Mine is .44 mag, and they also come in .357 and .454.
The only downside are the wood hand grips. They are prone to cracking along the thumb line. Though I found a guy in FL who had some resin ones made, which are really nice.
Good luck finding one though. Metaba is not currently producing any thing right now. I bought it for about $1400 3 years ago, and the last time I saw one, it was going for $3600. I think there are only 1,500 of them in the US.

Nice piece. Reminds me of Tougusa from GITS:SAC



/Sad to see he switched to the Seburo in the OVA.
//Image hot like The Major.

It's a tool box; use whatever is right for the job. 9mm ammo is cheap and it's what the rest of NATO uses anyway.

And remember, kids; the Corps gets the crap that the Department of The Navy doesn't want. Someone mentioned the ol' Huey transport and the Cobra attack helicopters, Their both very fine cases in point. The Army and Navy didn't want 'em anymore so the Marines got the leftovers. It's a wonder to me how they even get to play with Abrams.

JonathanChance: MythDragon: McBotulism: Gun porn thread? Mine:

[farm9.staticflickr.com image 640x478]

CZ 75B with cocobolo grips. Their price range is similar to a Glock compact, but they're all steel. Yeah, mine's "only" a 9mm, but I don't see any .45 snobs volunteering to step in front of one. Besides, unlike the military, I can use hollow points.

I do like the CZs. I have a 75B and a P07 both in 9mm. I like the P07, but the trigger guard doesn't need to be so damn big. Doesn't fit into any of my existing holsters. I really wish I could find an original short-slide 75.

Since we are doing gun porn, I shall post my favorite:
[picturearchive.gunauction.com image 644x484]
The Mateba Unica 6. One of only 2 types semi-auto revolvers made (the other being made by Webly). Every time you fire, it automaticly cocks the hammer and rotates the cylinder, for a short trigger pull on the next shot. Fires from the bottom cylinder and the compensator really helps with muzzle climb. Mine is .44 mag, and they also come in .357 and .454.
The only downside are the wood hand grips. They are prone to cracking along the thumb line. Though I found a guy in FL who had some resin ones made, which are really nice.
Good luck finding one though. Metaba is not currently producing any thing right now. I bought it for about $1400 3 years ago, and the last time I saw one, it was going for $3600. I think there are only 1,500 of them in the US.

Nice piece. Reminds me of Tougusa from GITS:SAC

[images.wikia.com image 440x246]

/Sad to see he switched to the Seburo in the OVA.
//Image hot like The Major.

Looks quite a bit like the Chiappa Rhino.





Very interesting weapon although I've yet to have the opportunity to fire one.

Mine is a Kimber Eclipse full size. Have put tens of thousands of rounds downrange with it and it has never jammed once.

archichris: Ashtrey: Thinking of buying a gun. I like the 1911 because if it wadn't reliable it wouldn't still be in use.

Need to spend some time at the range test driving before I make a decision though.

Go shoot someone elses first. I found the 1911 to be too heavy, too much recoil, not enough bullets. I went with the Glock-30 .45 cal, with 10 round mags, 2 more rounds, better recoil control, feels better in my hand, concealable, reliable, shoots anything you put in it, etc....

My main experience when other people bring 1911's to the range is that they are custom jobs and dont shoot right. Its kind of the Camaro of the gun world, every macho guy has one, everyone has done some work on theirs, and none of them run right.

Great History, but there are better guns out there

I have a Kimber 1911 clone. Did nothing to it but replace the crummy factory magazine. It works just fine, thank you. Recoil strikes me as quite manageable. Then again, .44 mag doesn't really bother me, either, except that with my wrists showing signs of minor arthritis, it seems best to keep it under 100 rounds during any given trip to the range. I also have a Glock 22. It has quirks. With practice, you'll eventually hit with it, but nobody has shot it accurately the first time they picked it up, no matter their level of experience with other weapons. I've never seen anybody having a similar experience with a 1911. The lack of a manual safety other than that joke of a "trigger safety" also makes me unwilling to consider carrying it. If you're properly trained and habituated, you don't forget to take the safety off. It just happens. You still try and do it with the Glock, and it's a little disconcerting that there's nothing there.

craigdamage: 9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.

The 7.62×25mm Tokarev is a far better choice for a personal defense round (if we are to consider only military cartridges). It will send a 30 caliber bullet downrange at over 1,500 fps so targets beyond fifty meters can be engaged. If cartridges that have never been used by a military are considered, then there are even better choices for a PDW (Personal Defense Weapon).

Larger diameter bullets mean there's a better chance a hit will incapacitate but it's better to hit your intended target with a smaller diameter bullet where you want to than hit an arm or leg with a bigger bullet. A centerline hit with a smaller bullet will stop almost anyone.

Meanwhile, I guard Naval supply depots with a 9mm Beretta. I hate that gun so much, I considered bringing my Sig 226 to work with me.

Luthiel: Is this the gun porn thread?

[images.wikia.com image 750x600]

Want.

Have, and also have nothing but problems with it.

scatters: A lack of fancy buttons or external safety doesn't it a bad gun; it makes it simple and reliable, and easy to use under pressure. Seems like an ideal handgun to me.

Until it simply discharges because the trigger gets snagged on something. The glock safety isn't to be trusted. Glock striker fire also suffers from being neither fish nor foul. Its got a long and spongy pull and technically is always carried in the half cocked position. A proper single/double action pistol could get by without any safety but it would have a stiff first shot trigger.

A 1911 on the other hand has a manual safety (usually a military requirement anyway) and a crisp single action only trigger.
A bit of practice and the safety becomes second nature, while an exposed hammer gives you second strike capability.

That said, the 1911 isn't for everyone. Its a bit of a beast to handle and getting its trademark accuracy will require a certain amount of skill.
Given the added value of its history in serving Americans through the last century of war, I'd say its a perfect weapon for the Marines.

Somebody could have used one of them in Aurora a few days ago

gun thread is incomplete without this guy.

Gyrfalcon: Plus its cheap, available and there's more ammo for it than you can shake a stick at. I'm an admirer of Soviet lo-tech, honestly. When the F-117 first arrived, there was a documentary about how ground crews had to sweep the runway to make sure there were no loose bolts or rocks that could get sucked into the intakes. Someone commented how Soviet fighters could take a shovel full of gravel into their engines and keep flying--they couldn't get parts or maintenance, so the damn things were virtually invulnerable.

Apocryphal. Russian jet engines have always been high maintenance garbage.

Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.

These are mine (and yes I took this picture):



I took a defensive handgun class with it and it shot flawlessly. The 4 Glock shooters had problems (mostly from limp wristing I think) and one guy had a Walther that would jam after about 6 rounds or so. Three others had Springfield XDs (of which I have three) and they had no issues. Love my Springers.

ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.

Bin Laden was killed with a pistol.

voodoo_curse: Meanwhile, I guard Naval supply depots with a 9mm Beretta. I hate that gun so much, I considered bringing my Sig 226 to work with me.

What do you hate about the M9?

ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.

I'd suppose some of it is tradition.
Pistols are issued mainly for positions where carrying a full sized rifle is not convenient, and as backup weapons if the primary fails.
There has been a push to arm drivers and officers with smaller-than-rifle personal defense weapons, but most of those come with proprietary rounds. There are some exceptions like the magpul PDR and shortened M4 style weapons.
Those options are still up in the air, and still not as nimble as a pistol.

As wars move indoors and even underground, you need Compact firepower.

ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.

ask this guy:

Subtle_Canary: ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.

ask this guy:

[img219.exs.cx image 800x517]

Even wounded he maintains trigger discipline.

+1000

ko_kyi Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.


regular "grunts-infantry"....not much.

Special Forces,SEALS,clandestine operations etc.....quite a bit more.


I do remember I worked with a guy who was a "loader" on an M1 Abrams during the first gulf war.
He said they were patrolling when he and his crew heard a "blast" and when he opened up the top lid to investigate he saw a huge cloud of sand and debris falling all around the tank. An RPG round had just missed them and struck a dune on their flank. As he turned around to investigate he saw an Iraqi loading another warhead onto his RPG. They only had about two seconds before the RPG would have fired and not enough time to bear down with the M60 machine gun mount on the turret which was acing the opposite direction. He drew his M9 Berretta and fired into the ground and "walked" the bullet impacts to the target.

craigdamage

9mm is best MILITARY cartridge for pistol and SMG. Period.
Light recoil,high capacity,great penetration, low cost.....etc...

You may want to do a quick search on the fbi shooting in florida (Miami IIRC) where several oinkers got their asses handed to them.

lol

Subtle_Canary: A regular mil-spec plain jane 1911a1 is not THAT great a fire arm. Its a good pistol sure but its not the second coming of christ its fanbois think it is (hell, JMB later went on to mostly create the Hi-Power which is a better pistol by far). Its heavy, low capacity, not any more accurate than any of its competitors and a biatch to maintain.
When people cream themselves over the notoriety of the '.45' they are actually thinking of custom job racer guns that cost 3 times as much and arent reliable enough to be a fighting mans gun.

You're missing the beauty of weapon. A 1911 isn't meant to be kept under glass. It has lots of safety features and loose tolerance; it can be broken way down and cleaned with a toothbrush. You can sleep with it. You can drop it in a mud puddle, toss it in a sand pile - then pick it up and knock someone down by shooting them in the pinky finger. It's not a range gun - it's a tool. The only thing I don't miss from the years I lived with one is the size and weight. I never found it a biatch to maintain. I love my Sig, but it's a biatch to maintain. Then again that's like comparing a Porsche to a F250 4X4. It's fun to drive a Porsche, until I have to haul a load of lumber to the top of a mountain.

OnlyM3 You may want to do a quick search on the fbi shooting in florida (Miami IIRC) where several oinkers got their asses handed to them.


That is why I said MILITARY and not law enforcement.


You are referring to the "Miami Shootout" of 1986. (google that)
Contrary to popular belief,that incident did NOT illustrate the failure of the 9mm (a single 9mm cross-torso shot failed to stop an armed man instantly)

MANY failures occurred on that day. Mostly tactical.
.357 magnum failed.
.223 failed.
12 gauge 00 buck failed.

NO FBI agent or "bad-guy" was instantly killed in that shootout.

Also,it is now believed by some that the "infamous" 9mm round that failed had actually fully penetrated the car door before striking the guy with the Mini-14. Had it been a .45 it would have NEVER even struck the perp. (the made for TV movie about the incident shows the robber climbing out the window when he was struck but I have heard that that may have been false)

Ficoce: Subtle_Canary: A regular mil-spec plain jane 1911a1 is not THAT great a fire arm. Its a good pistol sure but its not the second coming of christ its fanbois think it is (hell, JMB later went on to mostly create the Hi-Power which is a better pistol by far). Its heavy, low capacity, not any more accurate than any of its competitors and a biatch to maintain.
When people cream themselves over the notoriety of the '.45' they are actually thinking of custom job racer guns that cost 3 times as much and arent reliable enough to be a fighting mans gun.

You're missing the beauty of weapon. A 1911 isn't meant to be kept under glass. It has lots of safety features and loose tolerance; it can be broken way down and cleaned with a toothbrush. You can sleep with it. You can drop it in a mud puddle, toss it in a sand pile - then pick it up and knock someone down by shooting them in the pinky finger. It's not a range gun - it's a tool. The only thing I don't miss from the years I lived with one is the size and weight. I never found it a biatch to maintain. I love my Sig, but it's a biatch to maintain. Then again that's like comparing a Porsche to a F250 4X4. It's fun to drive a Porsche, until I have to haul a load of lumber to the top of a mountain.

Thats the joke. If everybody had a mil-spec 1911 the gun would be considered a decent piece of kit. Not God like and certainly not something theyd drop 2 grand on. But everybody and their mother gets some kind of super precision made custom kit gun, likes how it shoots and wonders why the military ever gave it up. They gave it up because they didnt want to put a grand worth of custom work into every pistol that would be issued to make it run as well as a stock modern auto like a glock or sig.

You will NEVER find a 1911 that has passed the kind of survivability and reliability test a Glock has passed. NEVER.

1911's are GREAT pistols for special forces and troops who will use them as a primary weapon like MP's. Standard infantry? no. A ruggadized 1911 is still more fragile than a Glock, not any more accurate, less capacity, and heavier. You can teach a 10 year old how to strip and clean a Glock in 30 minutes. most of the people that i know that actually OWN a 1911 still cant do it properly without watching a youtube video force feed it to them.

A 1911 is like high performance car. Its not meant to be hauling lumber, getting dirty, and running with inferior gasoline on unpaved roads.

Subtle_Canary: Ficoce: Subtle_Canary: A regular mil-spec plain jane 1911a1 is not THAT great a fire arm. Its a good pistol sure but its not the second coming of christ its fanbois think it is (hell, JMB later went on to mostly create the Hi-Power which is a better pistol by far). Its heavy, low capacity, not any more accurate than any of its competitors and a biatch to maintain.
When people cream themselves over the notoriety of the '.45' they are actually thinking of custom job racer guns that cost 3 times as much and arent reliable enough to be a fighting mans gun.

You're missing the beauty of weapon. A 1911 isn't meant to be kept under glass. It has lots of safety features and loose tolerance; it can be broken way down and cleaned with a toothbrush. You can sleep with it. You can drop it in a mud puddle, toss it in a sand pile - then pick it up and knock someone down by shooting them in the pinky finger. It's not a range gun - it's a tool. The only thing I don't miss from the years I lived with one is the size and weight. I never found it a biatch to maintain. I love my Sig, but it's a biatch to maintain. Then again that's like comparing a Porsche to a F250 4X4. It's fun to drive a Porsche, until I have to haul a load of lumber to the top of a mountain.

Thats the joke. If everybody had a mil-spec 1911 the gun would be considered a decent piece of kit. Not God like and certainly not something theyd drop 2 grand on. But everybody and their mother gets some kind of super precision made custom kit gun, likes how it shoots and wonders why the military ever gave it up. They gave it up because they didnt want to put a grand worth of custom work into every pistol that would be issued to make it run as well as a stock modern auto like a glock or sig.

You will NEVER find a 1911 that has passed the kind of survivability and reliability test a Glock has passed. NEVER.

1911's are GREAT pistols for special forces and troops who will use them as a primary weapon like MP's. Standard infan try? no. A ruggadized 1911 is still more fragile than a Glock, not any more accurate, less capacity, and heavier. You can teach a 10 year old how to strip and clean a Glock in 30 minutes. most of the people that i know that actually OWN a 1911 still cant do it properly without watching a youtube video force feed it to them.

A 1911 is like high performance car. Its not meant to be hauling lumber, getting dirty, and running with inferior gasoline on unpaved roads.

That's crap. I own both. There's very little difference in how hard they are to strip. The major difference is that the Glock doesn't have a barrel bushing to remove. If you can't do it without instructions, you're a mechanical cretin. It's not exactly tearing down a Ferrari engine or anything.

ko_kyi: Stopping power and all that...but a question.

What percentage of enemy casualties were inflicted with sidearms in the last 20 years, excepting executions, coups de grace, etc? I figured that officers at least carried sidearms mostly out of the old days traditions of executing deserters, finishing off mortally wounded enemies, etc.


Older than 20 years, but still very relevant.

bubo_sibiricus: Solid Muldoon: It's a fine piece of technology, but give me a revolver any day.

Good luck reloading that 6 shooter in a firefight.

Since I'm not in the military, I go by the philosophy that if you need more than six shots, you probably shouldn't be in that fight.

This is a great weapon.

The old 9mm vs. .45ACP argument again. I have a simple response to that: it doesn't matter what the caliber or velocity, it's a piece of metal where a piece of metal wasn't before and isn't supposed to be injected at high velocity. Period. Relative lethality? .22LR has probably killed more people than any other round? Stopping power? relative to the situation.

The USMC has a specific mission. In order to accomplish that mission, they need specific tools. They are very good at this mission. They've done it for over two hundred years. They saw that one of their tools was lacking and replaced it with another they already had experience with. To me, it is as simple as that.

I've owned a 1911, a Series 70 Commander, back in the 80's. It was a lemon. No matter what I did or had done professionally would make that thing fire more than three rounds without jamming. New magazines, polished feed ramps, tuning, every different type of ammunition made at the time and the best I could get out of it was a string of five consecutive using 230g FMJ surplus. At the time, I needed a reliable carry gun. I ended up trading it for a CA Undercover .38, a Chief's Special clone. The guy at the pawn shop thought he'd ripped me off with that deal but I knew better. That fool carried it for months before shooting it and ended up calling me a thief.

I have also shot out-of-the-box .45s that ran perfectly on everything from reduced velocity soft lead handloads to +P+ planetcrackers. The 1911 is a good pistol. I own a Glock 17 and Keltec P11, bot 9mms. They work just fine for me. I never bother with shots farther than 50-100 feet (not yards) with a pistol simply because that's their truly practical range for me. Anything farther away I'd either not bother with or go get a rifle. This is just my humble opinion.

Kittypie070: A 1911 is more fragile than a Glock!?

A hunk of steel whose design has been kicking around in the dirt and mud for 100 years is
more fragile than a chunk of pretty dang modern sometimes but not always polymer?

Now I know Stupid_Canary is full of shiat.

Just look up ANY torture test involving pistols. 1911's are so low on the list as to not even warrant mention. They jam all the time if you dont feed them perfect ammo or get them dirty. Its a sad fact. look it up. You can bury a Glock in mud, back the mud hard, leave it there a month, break it out, shake the grit out and fire an entire magazine with no problem. You cant even throw sand on a modern 1911 without making it choke and die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdh2X9CDe38&feature=related for example. Its Easy to find Glock torture test because nobody minds beating the hell out of a Glock. Bout the only 'stress test' you will see of a 1911 is some yokel tossing it into semi-dirty water.