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(Labspaces.net)   F*cking magnets -- how do they work to cure depression?   (labspaces.net ) divider line
    More: Interesting, TMs, clinical practice, psychiatric treatment, natural resource economics, efficacy  
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4521 clicks; posted to Geek » on 27 Jul 2012 at 3:48 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-27 03:11:44 PM  
Great news release. Everything old is new again.

This company has been providing the service for years. And from what I understand they are not exactly getting filthy rich.
 
2012-07-27 03:16:01 PM  
Well, they ARE bipolar.
 
2012-07-27 03:53:05 PM  
Throwing them at the f*ckwits that are driving me nuts might help

/if they're heavy enough
 
2012-07-27 03:54:37 PM  
Depression is caused by rust accumulating in the wrong parts of the brain. The magnet pull out the rust to pool along the cranium, and the wounds they leave behind allow you to pour sunshine and sugar into the mind, uplifting their spirits.

/Did not read the article
//Obviously I didn't need to.
 
2012-07-27 03:59:07 PM  
Let me guess, you swallow them in pairs.............
 
2012-07-27 04:14:17 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-07-27 04:20:00 PM  
why is it that fark submitters are incapable of remembering an very short meme?
 
2012-07-27 04:20:58 PM  

Jackson Herring: why is it that fark submitters are incapable of remembering an very short meme?


oh wow never mind, I am the one who is the ball licker
 
2012-07-27 04:27:18 PM  

Farkenhostile: [25.media.tumblr.com image 640x427]


i1230.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-27 04:35:12 PM  
The answer is to eat them right?
 
2012-07-27 04:38:51 PM  

Jackson Herring: why is it that fark submitters are incapable of remembering an very short meme?


Maybe if you were one, you'd have some idea.

You've got the bad writing part down fine, though.
 
2012-07-27 04:50:54 PM  
That's a pretty ineffective and clumsy tasp. They should have just gone for a plain old basic droud.
 
2012-07-27 04:58:56 PM  

nekom: Well, they ARE bipolar.


** golf clap **
 
2012-07-27 05:13:35 PM  

Vlad_the_Inaner: That's a pretty ineffective and clumsy tasp. They should have just gone for a plain old basic droud.


Nono, see this is how you get people to *want* the droud.
 
2012-07-27 05:48:40 PM  
I forsee commercials on TV soon, advertising pillows with magnets embedded in the foam.....

/gonna tape a magnet to my forehead tonight
 
2012-07-27 05:53:28 PM  
Pseudoscience to the rescue!
 
2012-07-27 05:58:09 PM  
I wear a degaussing coil on my head, so I'm really getting a kick...
 
mhd
2012-07-27 06:26:51 PM  
i50.tinypic.com
 
2012-07-27 06:38:02 PM  
makes me think a MRI full body scan would do a body good.
 
2012-07-27 06:39:08 PM  
Oh, I see "controlled clinical trails" of a double-blind randomized study (you know... SCIENCE) wasn't getting the results you expected. So you cherry pick a biased study and call it "naturalistic studies". Got it, that proves that this has to work then!
 
2012-07-27 06:42:55 PM  
Well, I hear playing with these is quite entertaining:

www.geekologie.com

Or at least they were until the government banned them
 
2012-07-27 06:56:38 PM  

EngineerAtWork: Oh, I see "controlled clinical trails" of a double-blind randomized study (you know... SCIENCE) wasn't getting the results you expected. So you cherry pick a biased study and call it "naturalistic studies". Got it, that proves that this has to work then!


Exactly.

I was getting concerned and trying to think of any possible molecular mechanism for this. But then they went ahead and admitted that the study was bullshiat. If there is no placebo control, there is no study. Particularly if it's a depression study.
 
2012-07-27 07:04:37 PM  
If this does work, it just goes to show you how farked and backward we are as a society. The article states that the treatment has been shown to be effective to patients who do not get relief from medical therapies.

So basically, if they pump you full of pharmaceuticals and those don't work, then they can try something non-invasive and non-toxic.

My ideal is there is a world somewhere, populated with humans, and they try every natural and innovative remedy first before they go to pumping poisonous chemicals into the body.

That's the world I one day want to live in.

/also, just imagine if girls weren't weirded out by our boners and stuff, and just like wanted to see them. That's also the world I one day want to live in.
 
2012-07-27 07:13:10 PM  
 
2012-07-27 08:02:15 PM  
give me gause rifle flings spoons at my ex boss
 
2012-07-27 09:02:11 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: If this does work, it just goes to show you how farked and backward we are as a society. The article states that the treatment has been shown to be effective to patients who do not get relief from medical therapies.

So basically, if they pump you full of pharmaceuticals and those don't work, then they can try something non-invasive and non-toxic.

My ideal is there is a world somewhere, populated with humans, and they try every natural and innovative remedy first before they go to pumping poisonous chemicals into the body.

That's the world I one day want to live in.


What about all the natural chemicals out there? Can we use those? If a natural chemical works, but has a small side effect, can we alter it to remove the side effect, or will that make it an unnatural poisonous chemical? If the natural chemical works, but isn't as effective as we'd like, can we alter it to make it more effective, or will that make it an unnatural poisonous chemical? What if there's not enough of the natural chemical in the world; can we replicate it? Or will that make is unnatural?

If there isn't a natural chemical available, can we use natural elements to make a new chemical that is effective? Like carbon atoms hydrogen atoms, perhaps with a splash of sulphur or oxygen atoms. Or will that make it suddenly "unnatural"? Or should we stick with completely nature-made chemicals, like natural arsenic compounds, or natural cyanide? Or what about some natural botulinum?
 
2012-07-27 10:18:30 PM  
Well, they uh..........they don't.
 
2012-07-27 10:19:58 PM  

mgshamster: AdolfOliverPanties: If this does work, it just goes to show you how farked and backward we are as a society. The article states that the treatment has been shown to be effective to patients who do not get relief from medical therapies.

So basically, if they pump you full of pharmaceuticals and those don't work, then they can try something non-invasive and non-toxic.

My ideal is there is a world somewhere, populated with humans, and they try every natural and innovative remedy first before they go to pumping poisonous chemicals into the body.

That's the world I one day want to live in.

What about all the natural chemicals out there? Can we use those? If a natural chemical works, but has a small side effect, can we alter it to remove the side effect, or will that make it an unnatural poisonous chemical? If the natural chemical works, but isn't as effective as we'd like, can we alter it to make it more effective, or will that make it an unnatural poisonous chemical? What if there's not enough of the natural chemical in the world; can we replicate it? Or will that make is unnatural?

If there isn't a natural chemical available, can we use natural elements to make a new chemical that is effective? Like carbon atoms hydrogen atoms, perhaps with a splash of sulphur or oxygen atoms. Or will that make it suddenly "unnatural"? Or should we stick with completely nature-made chemicals, like natural arsenic compounds, or natural cyanide? Or what about some natural botulinum?


No, man.

Besides, all of our unnatural medicines are freaks of science. Artificially created matter using direct conversion of nuclear (TOXIC) energy into mass, and then pieced together by CORPORATE POISONERS into "medicine." You can't honestly believe any of this is made from naturally occurring matter, or is chemically indistinct from things that occur in nature. These "doctors" and "scientists" would have you believe that, but really it's all just to make you sicker. Penicillin? More like anti-matter proto-molecules. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors? They act like it's something they "found", but really it's farkin' robots in your brain stealing your brain chemicals and making you believe in their fake medicine.

LONG LIVE THE HOMEOPATHIC MEDICINE REVOLUTION!
 
2012-07-27 10:37:19 PM  
The published report summarized data collected from 42 clinical TMS practice sites in the US, and included outcomes from 307 patients with Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) who had persistent symptoms despite the use of antidepressant medication. Change during TMS was assessed using both clinicians' ratings of overall depression severity and scores on patient self-report depression scales, which require the patient to rate the severity of each symptom on the same standardized scale at the end of each 2-week period. Rates for "response" and "remission" to TMS were calculated based on the same cut-off scores and conventions used for other clinical trials of antidepressant treatments. Fifty-eight percent positive response rate to TMS and 37 percent remission rate were observed.

WHAR CONTROL GROUP WHAR?
 
2012-07-27 10:46:53 PM  
Oh, really? How good is the study?

"Naturalistic studies like ours, which provide scrutiny of real-life patient outcomes when TMS therapy is given in actual clinical practice settings,..."

Okay...

Carpenter explains that naturalistic studies differ from controlled clinical trials because they permit the inclusion of subjects with a wider range of symptomatology and comorbidity, whereas controlled clinical trials typically have more rigid criteria for inclusion.

Sounds interesting...

The published report summarized data collected from 42 clinical TMS practice sites in the US, and included outcomes from 307 patients

Ah, so you've mislabeled a meta-analysis study. Welcome to the realm of selective sample sets, author bias, and unstated major premises.

If you're going to offer me a meta-analysis study I want to see more than 7.3 patients per study site. 30 is about bare minimum, 300 per study site starts to feel better.

360perspective.files.wordpress.com

Poorly executed depression study depresses me.
 
2012-07-27 10:57:06 PM  
photo.goodreads.com

Even better
 
2012-07-27 11:15:13 PM  
img.photobucket.com
 
zez
2012-07-27 11:47:35 PM  

nekom: Well, they ARE bipolar.


I actually snorted. Good job.
 
2012-07-28 01:53:11 AM  
Sounds attractive...

/not repulsive
 
2012-07-28 03:30:19 AM  

fusillade762: Well, I hear playing with these is quite entertaining:

[www.geekologie.com image 640x404]

Or at least they were until the government banned them


Those go against my decades-old ingrained habit of keeping magnets away from my magnetic media. I'd probably freak out if someone dropped those on my desk and they started rolling everywhere. Even tho, intellectually, I know that my only remaining magnetic media wouldn't be in danger. Cards are in my wallet and my hard drive would need a much stronger magnetic field to flip bits.

Still, rolling magnets put my hackles up. :)

FWIW, I did have some cards wiped by a magnet once. I had the cards in the right inner pocket of a jacket and a hide-a-key box for my car in the left inner pocket. Folded the jacket over a chair and there went my cards. Took me a while to figure that one out.
 
2012-07-28 07:24:03 AM  
I think this method was shown on an episode of NOVA scienceNOW. In the episode, I believe they discussed double blind clinical trials, but I don't recall them using it for depression.

For what it's worth, this isn't the pseudoscience version where you stick a regular magnet up to your body and say it cures you. This magnetic field has the strength of an MRI machine placed directly against the skull to stimulate activity in a particular part of the brain. That the device actually does stimulate activity is not in question; only the claim that it actually helps with anything is.
 
2012-07-28 08:26:06 AM  
farking placebos, how do they work?
 
2012-07-28 09:16:25 AM  
:
WHAR CONTROL GROUP WHAR?


Those would be the referenced 30 previous clinical trials, including one ran by the FDA itself. The FDA's own study BTW had even better results the most of the others. The study the article is about is a look at post clinical trial results of how well TMS actually works in the field. From the article "studies like ours, which provide scrutiny of real-life patient outcomes when TMS therapy is given in actual clinical practice settings"..."studies differ from controlled clinical trials because they permit the inclusion of subjects with a wider range of symptomatology and comorbidity"

TMS isn't a magnet in a headband, it's an incredibly strong and precisely focused magnetic beam that generates electric current in the area of the brain that is thought to affect mood. It produces better results than Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) without the seizures and memory loss.

If you have someone suffering from treatment resiant dsepression this can be a godsend. A Q&A from NOVA.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/george-uses-tms.html

I did find this interesting from the above Q&A, "When we make TMS coils that can stimulate the pleasure center, or which will improve performance or memory, then we will likely need to develop societal rules that help regulate this".

Giggity, drug free highs
 
2012-07-28 09:20:40 AM  

BeerLion: :
treatment resiant dsepression



Errr treatment resistant depression
 
2012-07-28 09:35:21 AM  

MrEricSir: farking placebos, how do they work?


Those charlatans! Now they are peddling their snake oil at Johns Hopkins, the Mayo clinic, UCLA medical center, the Cleveland clinic etc

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/brain_stimu l ation/tms/
http://www.mayoclinic.org/transcranial-magnetic-stimulation/?mc_id=co m linkpilot&placement=bottom
http://www.uclahealth.org/body.cfm?id=502&action=detail&ref=827
 
2012-07-28 10:22:42 AM  

jack21221: This magnetic field has the strength of an MRI machine placed directly against the skull


Good ol' "natural" magnets with the strength of an MRI... Right AdolfOliverPanties?
 
2012-07-28 10:29:17 AM  

BeerLion: Those charlatans! Now they are peddling their snake oil at Johns Hopkins, the Mayo clinic, UCLA medical center, the Cleveland clinic etc


Want to know how I know you didn't read the research?
 
2012-07-28 10:50:43 AM  

impaler: jack21221: This magnetic field has the strength of an MRI machine placed directly against the skull

Good ol' "natural" magnets with the strength of an MRI... Right AdolfOliverPanties?


From Johns -Hopkins

TMS is a non-invasive method of brain stimulation that relies on electromagnetic induction using an insulated coil placed over the scalp, focused on an area of the brain thought to play a role in mood regulation. The coil generates brief magnetic pulses, which pass easily and painlessly through the skull and into the brain. The pulses generated are of the same type and strength as those generated by magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) machines. When these pulses are administered in rapid succession, it is referred to as "repetitive TMS " or "rTMS", which can produce longer lasting changes in brain activity.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/brain_stimu l ation/tms/
 
2012-07-28 10:52:57 AM  

MrEricSir: BeerLion: Those charlatans! Now they are peddling their snake oil at Johns Hopkins, the Mayo clinic, UCLA medical center, the Cleveland clinic etc

Want to know how I know you didn't read the research?


Project much?
 
2012-07-28 10:58:42 AM  

BeerLion: MrEricSir: farking placebos, how do they work?

Those charlatans! Now they are peddling their snake oil at Johns Hopkins, the Mayo clinic, UCLA medical center, the Cleveland clinic etc

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/psychiatry/specialty_areas/brain_stimu l ation/tms/
http://www.mayoclinic.org/transcranial-magnetic-stimulation/?mc_id=co m linkpilot&placement=bottom
http://www.uclahealth.org/body.cfm?id=502&action=detail&ref=827


Indeed! Hospitals never use proven-to-not-work techniques simply because there's money to be made!

John Hopkins Acupuncture Program
Mayo Clinic Acupuncture Treatment
UCLA Center for East-West Medicine
Cleaveland Clinic Acupuncture Treatments and Procedures
 
2012-07-28 11:03:09 AM  
Nice try at a Strawman, TMS is clinically proven effective. Otherwise acupuncture and TMS are equivalent.
 
2012-07-28 11:07:56 AM  

BeerLion: Project much?


No, I actually read the links you posted. I recommend you do the same rather than continuing to shill for quackery.
 
2012-07-28 11:08:02 AM  

BeerLion: Nice try at a Strawman, TMS is clinically proven effective. Otherwise acupuncture and TMS are equivalent.


Strawman? You said that John Hopkins, et al, wouldn't peddle an ineffective treatment, and that's how we know that TMS works. I provided samples of all the hospitals you listed using noneffective treatments. Your premise is false. We cannot assume that just because all those hospitals are using it, that means it's effective.

TMS might very well be an effective treatment, but using those hospitals as evidence of effectiveness just because they use it is the wrong thing to do.
 
2012-07-28 12:14:55 PM  

Spasticus Autisticus: Great news release. Everything old is new again.

This company has been providing the service for years. And from what I understand they are not exactly getting filthy rich.


No, but $12,000-$14,000 (the cost of the treatment) is a lot of money to come up with at once. It's not covered by insurance.
 
2012-07-28 02:14:47 PM  
We still do not understand the underlying reasons for depression and mental illness.

We do not know what a normal level of serotonin is yet we prescribe serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, because they're 2 or 3% more effective then sugar pills.

We do the same thing for dopamine and norepenepherine, and that's just the neurotransmitters I can think of.

Our knowledge of mental illness is the same as that of a 5 year old's knowledge of a car. "That part's the engine! People go in there! That's a seatbelt! Thats a door! This knob turns the lights on, and you push this up and down to tell people you're gonna turn! That pedal makes it go vroom, and that other pedal makes it stop. The thing in the middle is how to tell it to go forward or backwards!"

Boy, that 5 year old knows EVERYTHING about cars. I'm not about to let him rebuild my engine.

Great, TMS has a success rate around the same as ECT. That means we can phase out ECT with it's many dangers and severe side effects.

It is still nothing but a shot in the dark. We don't know why it works. We have no data from actual brains. The sum of all data about mental illness comes entirely from asking crazy people how they are feeling. Are they really a legitimate source of unbiased data?

Call me back when we have a breakthrough in the "throw shiat at the wall and see what sticks" methodology to treating depression. Then we might be doing something useful.
 
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