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(Toronto Star)   A U-boat? In my coastal river? It's more common than you think (w/photos)   (thestar.com ) divider line
    More: Interesting, St. Lawrence River, Labrador, Transport Canada  
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23185 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 Jul 2012 at 7:17 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-27 06:35:56 AM  
i711.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-27 07:12:15 AM  
As I recall a U-boat landed people in Canada, they had an weather station they dropped off that would transmit automatically. Here ya go, very brief Google-fu : weather station Kurt.

However nothing on a sub sinking there, the one that dropped off the Kurt station was sunk in the Pacific, and a second one sent was sunk well before it got into the river.
 
2012-07-27 07:25:42 AM  
A no, is not a MY boat.
 
2012-07-27 07:30:32 AM  
Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

i.thestar.com
 
2012-07-27 07:32:32 AM  
Came for the Boobies. Leaving awesomely happy.

//who's da u-boat commander?
 
2012-07-27 07:37:52 AM  

abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

[i.thestar.com image 615x473]


Seems perfectly clear to me, I'm a little surprised that you can't see it. I'm amazed at how much of the boat's structure is so easy to see. How did they miss this for all these years?
 
2012-07-27 07:38:39 AM  
Time to call in the Shadow Divers?
 
2012-07-27 07:39:37 AM  
i90.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-27 07:42:08 AM  
What an AU boat might look like:

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-07-27 07:43:26 AM  
The German Embassy in Ottawa, which has been contacted about the possible find, has confirmed that as many as 50 U-boats were unaccounted for when the war ended in 1945.

Have you guys checked with Argentina?
 
2012-07-27 07:45:17 AM  
I'm sure someone from Germany will show up to claim it.
Probably just stick it in his trunk.

images.wikia.com

Ja ja ja, mach schnell mit der boot things, huh? I must get back to Dancecentrum in Struttgart in time to see Kraftwerk.
Hey, und dummkopf! Watch out for the CD-changer in my trunk, eh?
 
2012-07-27 07:48:04 AM  

Creoena: [i90.photobucket.com image 800x450]


That boat pilot is SO fired.

I
 
2012-07-27 07:52:25 AM  
video with overlay of u-boat... hmmmm Link
 
2012-07-27 07:53:34 AM  

Gough: abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

[i.thestar.com image 615x473]

Seems perfectly clear to me, I'm a little surprised that you can't see it. I'm amazed at how much of the boat's structure is so easy to see. How did they miss this for all these years?


Does anybody routinely use side scanning radar to map the bottom of random rivers?

That's how.

Neat find for this guy, I hope he gets the permit to check it out further soon.
 
2012-07-27 07:53:58 AM  
Call me skeptical. There is no real reason for a U-boat to have penetrated that far up what is a narrow and shallow waterway. The navigable channel is less than 300 yards wide at spots, and u-boats are deep-draft vessels (a Type VII has a surfaced draft of almost 16 feet, so you need a *MINIMUM* of 20 feet, which narrows the channel even farther. No U-boat commander would go that far up a river that narrow in enemy territory. Especially not in fresh water (which upsets your trim, going from salt to fresh and vice-versa), and waters that shallow. I just can't imagine any circumstance where that would have been been done.

Sinking ships wouldn't be the goal, as you could just sit right outside the mouth of the river and pick them off as they go by, and you've got deeper water and more freedom of movement to evade any counter-attack.

Same thing with planting mines. You wouldn't got that far up a convoluted channel when you could accomplish the same goal by planting them outside the mouth of the river.

I can't see where landing a manned or unmanned weather station would need to be up a river right near a town. You'd want that as far away from habitation as possible.

Agents are a possibility, but the problem there is that instead of landing them on the coast, where you can do it relatively discreetly and then get the Hell out of Dodge, they were trying to do it over 110 nautical miles up a narrow, winding, shallow river. At normal surfaced cruising speed for a U-boat, that would be about 24 hours round trip. They'd have to submerge during the day to avoid being seen, and because of the current, they couldn't really travel submerged. Typical submerged cruising speed would have been 3 or 4 knots, and if there is a 2 knot current, you're only going to make good 2 knots. They could do up to 7 knots, but that would drain the battery within an hour or so. So you're looking at a minimum of a 2 day round trip up and down the river, probably more like 3 depending on the time of year.

In short, I can't find a plausible reason why one would be over 100 nautical miles up a river like that. I bet it's something else.


/Somewhat of a student of the second Battle of the Atlantic.
//Especially the SIGINT aspects.
 
2012-07-27 07:56:51 AM  

dittybopper: Call me skeptical. There is no real reason for a U-boat to have penetrated that far up what is a narrow and shallow waterway. The navigable channel is less than 300 yards wide at spots, and u-boats are deep-draft vessels (a Type VII has a surfaced draft of almost 16 feet, so you need a *MINIMUM* of 20 feet, which narrows the channel even farther. No U-boat commander would go that far up a river that narrow in enemy territory. Especially not in fresh water (which upsets your trim, going from salt to fresh and vice-versa), and waters that shallow. I just can't imagine any circumstance where that would have been been done.


From TFA:

Jacque said the U-boat could have quite easily made the trip inland on Labrador's largest estuary to the shipping port of Happy Valley Goose Bay from the coast. He added that the Churchill River before it was dammed in the 1970s might well have been deep enough to allow German sailors to get to the Falls.
 
2012-07-27 07:58:52 AM  
Get NUMA on the phone.
 
2012-07-27 07:59:33 AM  
farm5.static.flickr.com
"Loyal and valiant soldiers of Germany, we stood up to the enemy in a dignified manner in the waters of the Atlantic, but our final battle is over and we could not see the palm trees of Batavia. Our ship has sunk to 57 meters deep, we have no assurance that the ballast and the engines can be repaired. You have carried out numerous battles with courage praise. At this moment I will waive all your military obligation. In two hours we will be left without air. Choose wisely how you desire to die. "


farm3.static.flickr.com
I'm sure Revy will find some cool stuff down there...if Rock will stop his sentimental biatching for 5 minutes.
 
2012-07-27 08:00:53 AM  

dittybopper: Call me skeptical. There is no real reason for a U-boat to have penetrated that far up what is a narrow and shallow waterway. The navigable channel is less than 300 yards wide at spots, and u-boats are deep-draft vessels (a Type VII has a surfaced draft of almost 16 feet, so you need a *MINIMUM* of 20 feet, which narrows the channel even farther. No U-boat commander would go that far up a river that narrow in enemy territory. Especially not in fresh water (which upsets your trim, going from salt to fresh and vice-versa), and waters that shallow. I just can't imagine any circumstance where that would have been been done.

Sinking ships wouldn't be the goal, as you could just sit right outside the mouth of the river and pick them off as they go by, and you've got deeper water and more freedom of movement to evade any counter-attack.

Same thing with planting mines. You wouldn't got that far up a convoluted channel when you could accomplish the same goal by planting them outside the mouth of the river.

I can't see where landing a manned or unmanned weather station would need to be up a river right near a town. You'd want that as far away from habitation as possible.

Agents are a possibility, but the problem there is that instead of landing them on the coast, where you can do it relatively discreetly and then get the Hell out of Dodge, they were trying to do it over 110 nautical miles up a narrow, winding, shallow river. At normal surfaced cruising speed for a U-boat, that would be about 24 hours round trip. They'd have to submerge during the day to avoid being seen, and because of the current, they couldn't really travel submerged. Typical submerged cruising speed would have been 3 or 4 knots, and if there is a 2 knot current, you're only going to make good 2 knots. They could do up to 7 knots, but that would drain the battery within an hour or so. So you're looking at a minimum of a 2 day round trip up and down the river, probably more like 3 dependi ...


The river used to be much wider and deeper. It was damed further upstream after the war for a hydroelectric project, and the river below became as it is today - much shallower/narrower.
 
2012-07-27 08:02:44 AM  
img.youtube.com
 
2012-07-27 08:04:05 AM  
Finally a story from my area on Fark!

/and i have nothing to say
 
2012-07-27 08:07:21 AM  
Yea but I don't see the screen door in that picture.
 
2012-07-27 08:08:26 AM  
Horrywood?
 
2012-07-27 08:09:24 AM  

abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

[i.thestar.com image 615x473]


It's right there, right next to the image of Jeebus, clear as a bell.
 
2012-07-27 08:11:49 AM  

dittybopper: Call me skeptical. There is no real reason for a U-boat to have penetrated that far up what is a narrow and shallow waterway. The navigable channel is less than 300 yards wide at spots, and u-boats are deep-draft vessels (a Type VII has a surfaced draft of almost 16 feet, so you need a *MINIMUM* of 20 feet, which narrows the channel even farther. No U-boat commander would go that far up a river that narrow in enemy territory. Especially not in fresh water (which upsets your trim, going from salt to fresh and vice-versa), and waters that shallow. I just can't imagine any circumstance where that would have been been done.


I have a feeling that at the end of the war, they sailed it upriver with the intent of scuttling it. Offload the crew, open the valves, and walk away. I would think they would prefer that to time in a POW camp.
 
2012-07-27 08:12:28 AM  

Gough: abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

[i.thestar.com image 615x473]

Seems perfectly clear to me, I'm a little surprised that you can't see it. I'm amazed at how much of the boat's structure is so easy to see. How did they miss this for all these years?


Looking at it, and squinting really hard, I see something that could be interpreted as a conning tower, but it really doesn't look all that much like a u-boat.

Not only that, but in order to get near Muskrat Falls, the U-boat would have to traverse this section of river:

i45.tinypic.com

In enemy territory. At night. With a bunch of uncharted sandbars. Right next to a town.

Sorry, I just don't find that plausible. They would have gotten stuck on a sandbar or in a channel that was too shallow (not knowing the right ones to pick), and *SOMEONE* would have noticed them. Hell, even if they didn't get stuck, some night-owl would have heard the diesels chugging up the river and noted it. All that is assuming the river in that area is consistently deep enough for a u-boat to traverse in the first place, which seems unlikely given the large number of sandbars.

I'll believe it when they pull up something that positively identifies it as a U-boat. Until then, I'm going with NBL (Not Bloody Likely).
 
2012-07-27 08:15:08 AM  
So, uh, we open it up and there's zombie Nazi submariners. Then what?
 
2012-07-27 08:19:40 AM  

MythDragon: [farm5.static.flickr.com image 500x281]
"Loyal and valiant soldiers of Germany, we stood up to the enemy in a dignified manner in the waters of the Atlantic, but our final battle is over and we could not see the palm trees of Batavia. Our ship has sunk to 57 meters deep, we have no assurance that the ballast and the engines can be repaired. You have carried out numerous battles with courage praise. At this moment I will waive all your military obligation. In two hours we will be left without air. Choose wisely how you desire to die. "


[farm3.static.flickr.com image 500x281]
I'm sure Revy will find some cool stuff down there...if Rock will stop his sentimental biatching for 5 minutes.


Black Lagoon reference! Well done.

/needs more Two Hands daisy dukes shots
 
2012-07-27 08:22:11 AM  

Harry Freakstorm: So, uh, we open it up and there's zombie Nazi submariners. Then what?


Then we get an Italian horror movie.
 
2012-07-27 08:25:21 AM  

dittybopper: Gough: abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

[i.thestar.com image 615x473]

Seems perfectly clear to me, I'm a little surprised that you can't see it. I'm amazed at how much of the boat's structure is so easy to see. How did they miss this for all these years?

Looking at it, and squinting really hard, I see something that could be interpreted as a conning tower, but it really doesn't look all that much like a u-boat.

Not only that, but in order to get near Muskrat Falls, the U-boat would have to traverse this section of river:

[i45.tinypic.com image 639x286]

In enemy territory. At night. With a bunch of uncharted sandbars. Right next to a town.

Sorry, I just don't find that plausible. They would have gotten stuck on a sandbar or in a channel that was too shallow (not knowing the right ones to pick), and *SOMEONE* would have noticed them. Hell, even if they didn't get stuck, some night-owl would have heard the diesels chugging up the river and noted it. All that is assuming the river in that area is consistently deep enough for a u-boat to traverse in the first place, which seems unlikely given the large number of sandbars.

I'll believe it when they pull up something that positively identifies it as a U-boat. Until then, I'm going with NBL (Not Bloody Likely).


Most of what you are looking at there was not there at the time. The river was much deeper, some of the town in that picture was under water. The 'town' at the time was the base area which is kind of "north west" in the area you are looking at. the area with the runways.

Those sandbars are like a living thing as well. They move from year to year, even week to week. Trust me, I have ran aground on a few of them.
 
2012-07-27 08:25:32 AM  

OldManDownDRoad: I have a feeling that at the end of the war, they sailed it upriver with the intent of scuttling it. Offload the crew, open the valves, and walk away. I would think they would prefer that to time in a POW camp.


That would be one of my first thoughts too. I don't buy the guy in the article saying it should immediately be considered a grave site and left alone. Any attack on a sub should be documented somewhere. If there was no attack, it most likely was sunk intentionally after the crew abandoned it.

Get those two diving guys from the History Channel out there, stat.
 
2012-07-27 08:26:45 AM  
The Germans torpedoed Canada dozens of times to no effect.

/TFA sounds like lots of loose talk.
//It's in 66 feet of water. If you think it's a U-boat, you put on your scuba gear and you go see.
///You don't know "100 percent" unless you go down and put your hands on the boat.
////Ein hundert percent? Ich glaube nichts.
 
2012-07-27 08:27:14 AM  

dittybopper: Gough: abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

[i.thestar.com image 615x473]

Seems perfectly clear to me, I'm a little surprised that you can't see it. I'm amazed at how much of the boat's structure is so easy to see. How did they miss this for all these years?

Looking at it, and squinting really hard, I see something that could be interpreted as a conning tower, but it really doesn't look all that much like a u-boat.

Not only that, but in order to get near Muskrat Falls, the U-boat would have to traverse this section of river:

[i45.tinypic.com image 639x286]

In enemy territory. At night. With a bunch of uncharted sandbars. Right next to a town.

Sorry, I just don't find that plausible. They would have gotten stuck on a sandbar or in a channel that was too shallow (not knowing the right ones to pick), and *SOMEONE* would have noticed them. Hell, even if they didn't get stuck, some night-owl would have heard the diesels chugging up the river and noted it. All that is assuming the river in that area is consistently deep enough for a u-boat to traverse in the first place, which seems unlikely given the large number of sandbars.

I'll believe it when they pull up something that positively identifies it as a U-boat. Until then, I'm going with NBL (Not Bloody Likely).


Most of what you are looking at there, as in town, was not there at the time. The river was much deeper, some of the town in that picture was under water. The 'town' at the time was the base area which is kind of "north west" in the area you are looking at. the area with the runways.

Those sandbars are like a living thing as well. They move from year to year, even week to week. Trust me, I have ran aground on a few of them.
 
2012-07-27 08:27:38 AM  

dittybopper: Sorry, I just don't find that plausible. They would have gotten stuck on a sandbar or in a channel that was too shallow (not knowing the right ones to pick), and *SOMEONE* would have noticed them. Hell, even if they didn't get stuck, some night-owl would have heard the diesels chugging up the river and noted it. All that is assuming the river in that area is consistently deep enough for a u-boat to traverse in the first place, which seems unlikely given the large number of sandbars.


Article mentions that before the river was damned it was deeper.
 
2012-07-27 08:28:20 AM  
Maybe he was supposed to sail up the St. Lawrence Seaway and wreck havoc on the shipping channel but went up the wrong river and got stuck. Settled in on to the bottom of the channel for a day and got stuck in the mud.

Just postulating.

Sometimes I drive up the wrong interstate and arrive in the wrong state. I want to blame it on the GPS biatch but she was actually right. Not going to admit it to her though.
 
2012-07-27 08:29:00 AM  
And Joe Dirt has a Bomb.
 
2012-07-27 08:29:03 AM  

abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

[i.thestar.com image 615x473]


This.
Show me the outline.
If only there was a simple computer program with which they could draw a simple line around the shape.
 
2012-07-27 08:41:20 AM  

cptjeff: From TFA:

Jacque said the U-boat could have quite easily made the trip inland on Labrador's largest estuary to the shipping port of Happy Valley Goose Bay from the coast. He added that the Churchill River before it was dammed in the 1970s might well have been deep enough to allow German sailors to get to the Falls.


The real question would be "Why bother". It's well over 100 nautical miles from the mouth of the estuary to Muskrat Falls. I measured it. Why go to the port when you can sit just outside the mouth of the estuary and plant mines or wait for the ships to come your way? It's a natural choke point. In order for the shipping from anywhere on that river to go into the Atlantic, they'd have to pass right by you, if you were at the mouth of the estuary.

A weather station would be better placed at some barren and uninhabited coastal area (Like the Kurt station was), and as for dropping agents, I can think of many better places to do that instead of in the middle of the Canadian wilderness with a single small town nearby, over 100 nautical miles from the relative safety of the open ocean.
 
2012-07-27 08:41:56 AM  

abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?


To the enhancing machine!

i45.tinypic.com

Enhanced
 
2012-07-27 08:42:32 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

To the enhancing machine!

[i45.tinypic.com image 850x440]

Enhanced


LULZ.

+1 internets
 
2012-07-27 08:45:12 AM  

Satanic_Hamster: dittybopper: Sorry, I just don't find that plausible. They would have gotten stuck on a sandbar or in a channel that was too shallow (not knowing the right ones to pick), and *SOMEONE* would have noticed them. Hell, even if they didn't get stuck, some night-owl would have heard the diesels chugging up the river and noted it. All that is assuming the river in that area is consistently deep enough for a u-boat to traverse in the first place, which seems unlikely given the large number of sandbars.

Article mentions that before the river was damned it was deeper.


Of course the river is damned...it's got Nazi Uboat zombies in it!
 
2012-07-27 08:49:43 AM  
img824.imageshack.us

"All this way, to hide a submarine in a river."
 
2012-07-27 08:50:23 AM  

gbcinques: The river used to be much wider and deeper. It was damed further upstream after the war for a hydroelectric project, and the river below became as it is today - much shallower/narrower.


It's an estuary. It's depth isn't determined by water flow down the river below Muskrat Falls, but by the tides. Above Muskrat Falls, you are correct. Below, not so much. Don't forget that Lake Melville is a saltwater tidal lake open to the ocean, and that Muskrat Falls is only 23 mile upriver from Lake Melville.

Saying that the river was wider and deeper before the dam was built 160 miles upriver from there is like saying that the Hudson at Newburgh used to be wider and deeper before the Hudson was dammed at Troy, NY. Just not plausible, because Atlantic Ocean.
 
2012-07-27 08:56:15 AM  

OldManDownDRoad: dittybopper: Call me skeptical. There is no real reason for a U-boat to have penetrated that far up what is a narrow and shallow waterway. The navigable channel is less than 300 yards wide at spots, and u-boats are deep-draft vessels (a Type VII has a surfaced draft of almost 16 feet, so you need a *MINIMUM* of 20 feet, which narrows the channel even farther. No U-boat commander would go that far up a river that narrow in enemy territory. Especially not in fresh water (which upsets your trim, going from salt to fresh and vice-versa), and waters that shallow. I just can't imagine any circumstance where that would have been been done.

I have a feeling that at the end of the war, they sailed it upriver with the intent of scuttling it. Offload the crew, open the valves, and walk away. I would think they would prefer that to time in a POW camp.


Any German sailor found in Canada immediately after WWII would have been immediately placed in a POW camp.

Even so, why do it there? Better to go up the Saint Lawrence which is much wider and more easily navigated, and you've got access to bigger cities and towns with more transportation infrastructure to let you go.

Plus, given the size of Happy Valley/Goose Bay, don't you think that a sudden influx of 45 or so foreign sounding strangers would have been noticed? You might get away with it at Montreal, but not a town that small.
 
2012-07-27 08:57:20 AM  
Maybe they thought they were in France?
The Germans were awful navigators, right?
 
2012-07-27 08:58:39 AM  

stavius: Most of what you are looking at there, as in town, was not there at the time. The river was much deeper, some of the town in that picture was under water. The 'town' at the time was the base area which is kind of "north west" in the area you are looking at. the area with the runways.

Those sandbars are like a living thing as well. They move from year to year, even week to week. Trust me, I have ran aground on a few of them.


You've been up there? Then you know the level of the river below Muskrat Falls is going to be largely determined by the tides.

But even assuming the river was deeper then, why go that far inland? There is just no reason for it.
 
2012-07-27 08:59:13 AM  

PunGent: Of course the river is damned...it's got Nazi Uboat zombies in it!


To be fair, they may be vampires.
 
2012-07-27 09:01:45 AM  

PunGent: Satanic_Hamster: dittybopper: Sorry, I just don't find that plausible. They would have gotten stuck on a sandbar or in a channel that was too shallow (not knowing the right ones to pick), and *SOMEONE* would have noticed them. Hell, even if they didn't get stuck, some night-owl would have heard the diesels chugging up the river and noted it. All that is assuming the river in that area is consistently deep enough for a u-boat to traverse in the first place, which seems unlikely given the large number of sandbars.

Article mentions that before the river was damned it was deeper.

Of course the river is damned...it's got Nazi Uboat zombies in it!


Oddly enough, there is a decent-ish book about Nazi U-boat zombies:

www.robertmccammon.com

It takes place in the Caribbean, though.
 
2012-07-27 09:02:23 AM  

abhorrent1: Am I missing something?
There's supposed to be a u-boat in this pic?

[i.thestar.com image 615x473]


You didn't grow up watching scrambled cinemax porn, it's clear as day
 
2012-07-27 09:03:30 AM  

Harry Freakstorm: So, uh, we open it up and there's zombie Nazi submariners. Then what?


grab the locknar fast and run
 
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