At least the NCAA and the Penn State leadership have the same degree of integrity.

what they did was better. Its much crueler to make them suffer through years and years of sucking.

Akin to that scene in Schindler's List when they spray the boxcars with water. The nazi thinks its cruel because it gives them "hope"

Penn State will hope to beat FCS schools. They won't.

Fano: Occam's Razor: NCAA realized they didn't want to miss out on sweet sweet Penn State dollars for that long.

USC gets away with shiat for the same reason.

USC never covered up decades of child rape.

If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

No. They just want to starve it to death slowly instead.

Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Yep. When you spend decades covering up child rape to keep your football program, just fire a couple people and everything will be all better.

Biness: Fano: Occam's Razor: NCAA realized they didn't want to miss out on sweet sweet Penn State dollars for that long.

USC gets away with shiat for the same reason.

USC never covered up decades of child rape.

Or maybe they are just better at it...

We should use temporary death penalties in the criminal justice system as well.

Oliver Twisted: Biness: Fano: Occam's Razor: NCAA realized they didn't want to miss out on sweet sweet Penn State dollars for that long.

USC gets away with shiat for the same reason.

USC never covered up decades of child rape.

Or maybe they are just better at it...

they'd be hard pressed to be worse at it.

Shoulda banned 'em permanently, with an appeal every ten years so they can remind everybody why they're banned.

Fano: Occam's Razor: NCAA realized they didn't want to miss out on sweet sweet Penn State dollars for that long.

USC gets away with shiat for the same reason.

Well, firstly, as was pointed out, what Penn State was way worse. But secondly, USC didn't really "get away" with anything. We just haven't seen the results of their punishment yet thanks to the length of the NCAA investigation and USC's appeal.

What a fantastic week for manufactured outrage!

Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

You do the supporting of ch--

meow said the dog: Someone will now tell you that you do the supporting of child rape. They will repeat this ad nauseam.

Oh dammit, you're no fun.

That is all.....

meow said the dog: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Someone will now tell you that you do the supporting of child rape. They will repeat this ad nauseam.

the coverup wasn't to support child rape (tho it did indirectly), the coverup was to protect the football program

therefore punishing the football program is only appropriate

/can't have your cake and eat it too

They need to quit calling it the death penalty if the farking thing isn't permanent.

This is worse in its own way. In 5 years, PSU will be lucky if only 30 of their players are walkons and if Indiana is only up by 28 at half. They'll become one of those shiatty bottom feeder schools that ends up with half their class being 2* recruits. They weren't particularly relevant in the 2000s aside from their 2006 Orange Bowl and this just builds off that.

WalkingSnake: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Yep. When you spend decades covering up child rape to keep your football program, just fire a couple people and everything will be all better.

QFT.

That, and the current Penn state students and alumni keep being in support of Joe Paterno. They harassed the victims for coming out and accusing Penn state of covering it up. This wasn't just a couple of people acting messed up. It's a current mentality that still reflects in the actions of people in the town and school even after Sandusky rots for the rest of his pathetic life in jail and it came out that JoePa spent over a decade covering for him.

Fark them all.

Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

No snark intended, but what would you have the NCAA do? If they do nothing, it sends the message that if something like this happens again, the school can merely cut ties to anyone who can be linked to it and everything's a-okay. But on the flip side, of the four people tied to this whole thing, one will die in jail, two might die in jail, and the other one probably would die in jail if he didn't die first. To me, that seems like a pretty good deterrent.

TL;DR: I have no clue what I would've done if I was levying the penalties.

meow said the dog: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Someone will now tell you that you do the supporting of child rape. They will repeat this ad nauseam.

Opinions on both sides have been repeated ad nauseam. Your comment has been repeated ad nauseam. Every thread related to this is like a re-run, with everyone presenting their opinions as if they've never been able to talk about them before.

It's almost like if they had banned the school for four years it would have caused business at State College to go close and people to lose their jobs. Thus making the NCAA look like the bad people for hurting those who didn't know anything about it.

NCAA Prez: "Hey guys, so we need to protect our phony baloney jobs and something about PSU."

NCAA Board: " Well we could ban them for a four years, but that could open us up to civil lawsuits, plus we'd be punishing people who had no hand in this. That's bad PR."

NCAA Prez:" How about we fine them lots of money, change the record books, and shield them from money-losing bowls. Then we can leak that we were going to throw the book at them but decided not too. That should keep the Outrage Suckers happy."

When Paternoville is ashes, then you have my permission to die.

Biness: Fano: Occam's Razor: NCAA realized they didn't want to miss out on sweet sweet Penn State dollars for that long.

USC gets away with shiat for the same reason.

USC never covered up decades of child rape.

Or they did it very well.

Were they boy boinking for speed or power?

Ugh, I can't believe the NCAA didn't want to throw into chaos the lives and athletic careers of dozens of athletes who were in no way associated w/ the crime!! That's outrageous!

/Am I doing this right?

I was listening to the radio yesterday and got to hear all the whining from local business owners around Penn State about how unfair it was that they were being penalized for something that they didn't do. Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?

And that's why this country is now a shiathole. The end.

AdamK: the coverup wasn't to support child rape (tho it did indirectly), the coverup was to protect the football program

That's not been proven. Sandusky wasn't an active coach in the period in question. The coverup was more about the image of the school than about the team directly -- and that's a hazy area of jurisdiction for the NCAA. Certainly no competitive sporting advantage was gained, and no NCAA rules were broken. Although popular, this is all just extra-legal witchhunting by an agency desperately seeking the moral high-ground on some issue, to distract from how the NCAA has been quasi-legally making billions by exploiting minors for almost 100 years.

cryinoutloud: Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?

And that's why this country is now a shiathole. The end.

Now a shiathole? Versus when, exactly? In the 19th century, literally no one would have cared -- and most would have wondered why those kids weren't at work in the mines.

I love the "punishing people that didn't do anything wrong" as though it is somehow different from every NCAA sanction on a school in the history of ever. That's why Pete Carroll and Reggie Bush suffered mightily while Matt Barkley got to play in a BCS bowl game last year.

Biness: Fano: Occam's Razor: NCAA realized they didn't want to miss out on sweet sweet Penn State dollars for that long.

USC gets away with shiat for the same reason.

USC never covered up decades of child rape.

USC broke actual NCAA rules.

LoneWolf343: No. They just want to starve it to death slowly instead.

I think it's more that the whole damn town is financially dependent on the football team, which while a terribly pathetic state of affairs, would mean deep economic hardship for lots and lots of people who had nothing to do with the scandal had they pursued the death penalty. This way, students, alumni, and their families still have a series of games to come to (thus patronizing the local businesses and keeping them from completely going under) and at the same time, a team whose success was built by a pedophile and his enabler will be relegated back to average status through the loss of those athletic scholarships and the players that received them transferring to other schools. Four years is just long enough to age-out every player and to let the program essentially start from scratch.

The NCAA trying to teach somebody a lesson about ethics is kinda like Paris Hilton trying to teach someone about hard work.

WalkingSnake Smartest
Funniest
2012-07-26 10:12:35 AM


meow said the dog: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Someone will now tell you that you do the supporting of child rape. They will repeat this ad nauseam.

Opinions on both sides have been repeated ad nauseam. Your comment has been repeated ad nauseam. Every thread related to this is like a re-run, with everyone presenting their opinions as if they've never been able to talk about them before.



You said that in the other thread

meow said the dog: Sorry you are free to do this and pretend upon which I caused the warning flare. Hating Penn State is up there with hating Chick-fil-a right now. I do not wish to stop anyone from expressing the faux outrage of them.

You sound borderline lucid, you must be quite angry.

MugzyBrown: What does shutting down the football team do for the victims? Nothing at all.

Do you think other school administrators will systematically cover up major crimes for decades in an effort to protect their school and football team?

MugzyBrown: cryinoutloud: I was listening to the radio yesterday and got to hear all the whining from local business owners around Penn State about how unfair it was that they were being penalized for something that they didn't do. Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?

And that's why this country is now a shiathole. The end.

Actually you're the reason the country is a shiathole. You want to lash out and over-react to a crime by killing a community of people who had no relation to the crime.

What does shutting down the football team do for the victims? Nothing at all. So you obviously don't give a fark about the kids either, just yourself and the vengeance you feel you're entitled to.

What the NCAA did DOES help the kids by putting tens of millions of dollars aside.


Pretty much all of this.

MugzyBrown: So because it's always been done in an idiotic manner, you have to continue in an idiotic manner forever? for-ev-er? for-ev-er?

Sanctions are always directed at the schools and the football program in general. Individual people can get away without penalty and individual people will get penalized when not involved....but the sanctions are almost always designed to penalize the program as a whole.

This is not some new concept and it is a perfectly reasonable concept given the limitations of trying to ban people from working outside of NCAA related jobs.

domino324: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

That's actually the reason they didn't use the death penalty. They didn't want to punish the hundreds of local businesses by depriving them of their best moneymaking period: Penn State football season. The sanctions chosen were intended to hurt the school while leaving the rest of the (admittedly batshiat) community unaffected.

Whether they've succeeded in that goal, or even whether that should have been the goal, is up for debate.

I think that's pretty much on the money - they saw the possibility to basically destroying the economy of an entire area as part of the punishment "process" and didnt (rightly) think it was a great idea. The PSU faithful will still turn out for bad football and the money will still flow through the economy.

MugzyBrown: So because it's always been done in an idiotic manner, you have to continue in an idiotic manner forever? for-ev-er? for-ev-er?

The NCAA has no ability to punish people who have already graduated, so their choices are (1) punish the program, which has some collateral damage, or (2) never punish anyone at all, which seems sort of silly. Sure, Sandusky's in jail and you can't arrest Paterno because he's dead. But it still makes sense to kick PSU in the teeth to remind people not to cover up felonies for the sake of football.

cryinoutloud: I was listening to the radio yesterday and got to hear all the whining from local business owners around Penn State about how unfair it was that they were being penalized for something that they didn't do. Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?

And that's why this country is now a shiathole. The end.

Yes, this country would be better if more people were only willing to bend over and take it up the asshole when someone who has nothing in common with them aside from the same geographic region decides to get rapey.

/Meanwhile, Victim #4 disagrees with the Penn State punishment. Does he now deserve everything that happens to him, too?

Those poor Penn State fans. They get to watch Penn State play a full 12-game schedule but they're being cheated of traveling to Detroit to watch their favorite college football team play in the Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl against a juggernaut from the MAC. And now they won't get to take cheesy pictures with a tacky statue of a man who actively enabled a child molester for over a decade. Those poor fans.

And those poor, poor players. They still get to live their dream of playing Penn State football - on national TV, no less - or transferring immediately to another school, or not playing and still having their scholarships honored and getting a free education. The NCAA destroyed these players' lives in a witch hunt because they were obviously just jealous of Joe Paterno's success.

/the mind of a PSU apologist must be a scary, scary place

BCAA not NCAA

bulldg4life: MugzyBrown: What does shutting down the football team do for the victims? Nothing at all.

Do you think other school administrators will systematically cover up major crimes for decades in an effort to protect their school and football team?

Actually, Mike and Mike discussed this yesterday. Golic is of the opinion that, yes, yes they will, because "This will never happen to them".

MugzyBrown: So you think now they will because they didn't shut down the football team? The real death penalty doesn't deter murder, why would shutting down a football program - after you're fired- deter anything?

I think the penalties will cause people to second guess the power given to the football program on school campuses. It won't change overnight and I'm sure there will be other serious crimes that occur within football programs in the future. I'm assuming the PSU football team (and coach) will not run wild with a coach dictating reporting of crimes after simple conversations with school administrators. Personally, I would hope it makes my favorite team work to keep their shiat on the straight and narrow.

How have these types of sanctions stopped John Calipari from bouncing from program to program making more and more money?

I would have no problem altering the sanctions in a way to catch the coaches better. They nailed Bruce Pearl, so it is disappointing that they can't do the same to other coaches. Perhaps his hair is too nice.

bulldg4life: MugzyBrown: What does shutting down the football team do for the victims? Nothing at all.

Do you think other school administrators will systematically cover up major crimes for decades in an effort to protect their school and football team?

Is this a rhetorical question?

Of course they will. You'll notice the SMU death penalty didn't stop other schools from continuing to pay players and engage in recruiting violations.

velvet_fog: Those poor Penn State fans. They get to watch Penn State play a full 12-game schedule but they're being cheated of traveling to Detroit to watch their favorite college football team play in the Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl against a juggernaut from the MAC. And now they won't get to take cheesy pictures with a tacky statue of a man who actively enabled a child molester for over a decade. Those poor fans.

And those poor, poor players. They still get to live their dream of playing Penn State football - on national TV, no less - or transferring immediately to another school, or not playing and still having their scholarships honored and getting a free education. The NCAA destroyed these players' lives in a witch hunt because they were obviously just jealous of Joe Paterno's success.

/the mind of a PSU apologist must be a scary, scary place

You know, there are people in State College who have no affiliation with Penn State and had no love for Joe Paterno who will suffer because of this ruling. But hey, they deserved it, right? If they were smart (and psychic), they'd've moved somewhere else while they still had the chance, right?

MugzyBrown: you have pee hands: The NCAA has no ability to punish people who have already graduated, so their choices are (1) punish the program, which has some collateral damage, or (2) never punish anyone at all, which seems sort of silly. Sure, Sandusky's in jail and you can't arrest Paterno because he's dead. But it still makes sense to kick PSU in the teeth to remind people not to cover up felonies for the sake of football.

Maybe the NCAA should change the fact they have no ability to punish people retroactively. Wouldn't be hard to do with contracts.

Found guilty of a violation? How about instead of taking away your wins for 10 years ago, they take your salary for all of the years of your violation and Ban you from coaching an NCAA for life?

Which would have a stronger effect:

1) My old employer got punished, but I'm rich now because I cheated, won a championship and moved to another school

or

2) I owe the NCAA $9mm and I can't get another job

The NCAA doesn't have the power to organize a national championship structure for most of Division 1 college football. Do you really think it will ever have the power to void a contract between a school and its coach?

Start a department slush-fund and pay players under the table for 16 years and keep it quiet...

Season cancelled
Next year's home games all cancelled
Bowl ban and TV ban for 2 years, probation for 3 years
55 scholarships pulled over next 4 years
All associated boosters and coaches banned indefinitely from program
Only allowed to hire 5 coaches for entire program
No recruiting allowed for a year, no on campus visits allowed for 2 years

Effect? Program ruined, didn't reach a bowl game again for 20 years



Assistant coach rapes boys in the locker room, other coaches and administration covers it up for years...

12 years of wins vacated, including conference titles won
40 scholarships pulled over next 4 years, limited to 65 total
Bowl ban for 4 years, 5 years probation
$60 million fine
Reform agreements with NCAA and Big Ten with on campus compliance officers, councils and other NCAA officials and monitors

Effect? Who knows...

MugzyBrown: So again, because it's always been done wrong, it's right to continue to do it wrong.

If a company spends a decade polluting the local water supply, I'm assuming they get fined or penalized long after the executive that ok'd the operation is gone. Yes, Paterno and the school administrators are the guilty parties. They are dead, fired, or heading to jail. That doesn't perfectly absolve the football program. The environment surrounding the football program created a situation where protecting the image of the team/school was more important than reporting kiddie diddling. The football program should be penalized for creating such an environment.

IlGreven: Actually, Mike and Mike discussed this yesterday. Golic is of the opinion that, yes, yes they will, because "This will never happen to them".

I have no doubt the other football powerhouses will continue to feel invincible for quite some time. But, if the problem is to be fixed, I'm assuming we need to start some where.

This text is now purple: Of course they will. You'll notice the SMU death penalty didn't stop other schools from continuing to pay players and engage in recruiting violations.

I'm not sure anyone expected the situation to completely disappear and never ever happen again.

IlGreven: You know, there are people in State College who have no affiliation with Penn State and had no love for Joe Paterno who will suffer because of this ruling. But hey, they deserved it, right? If they were smart (and psychic), they'd've moved somewhere else while they still had the chance, right?

Nobody should ever be punished for any wrongdoing because it could affect people that weren't involved at all?

bulldg4life: MugzyBrown: So you think now they will because they didn't shut down the football team? The real death penalty doesn't deter murder, why would shutting down a football program - after you're fired- deter anything?

I think the penalties will cause people to second guess the power given to the football program on school campuses.

Athletic programs are not given power; they take it. You'll notice that MAC and Sun Belt football teams hold almost no power on their campuses. This is not because MAC or Sun Belt schools are especially virtuous, it's because their teams suck.

At UND, the hockey team is powerful. At Kentucky or Indiana, the basketball team runs bartertown. On many large campuses, it's the football team. This is largely because those teams drive the school's external image, are responsible for students being aware of the school, and bring in substantial amounts of financial support and drive local infrastructure. ND was a small Catholic school in a cow town in NW Indiana until they started regularly knocking off Army in football. The only reason anyone's ever heard of Carlisle is because of Jim Thorpe's football team. Swarthmore, Penn, Yale, and Harvard were hugely supported by the popularity of their football teams were years, before state schools caught up and surpassed them.

MugzyBrown: And the executive is personally sued and responsible for their wrong doing or mismanagement of a company.

From what I can tell, the former school administrators are facing civil suits and criminal penalties, as well. So, it looks like the company and the people responsible are getting penalized just the same.

This text is now purple: Athletic programs are not given power; they take it.

Well, duh. I'm not sure what you were going for with that explanation. The programs that bring in the money and attention get the power on campus. I wouldn't mind seeing that power restrained....at least to the point of reporting child rape instead of protecting the team.

MugzyBrown: They could have the power, but they don't want to upset the gravy train.

Could they? Is that even legal? I'm not a rule that "if you fark up your salary is retroactively forfeit" is enforceable by anyone in the US, let alone the NCAA, though IANAL.

Biness: Fano: Occam's Razor: NCAA realized they didn't want to miss out on sweet sweet Penn State dollars for that long.

USC gets away with shiat for the same reason.

USC never covered up decades of child rape.

I still have a Penn State alum on his facebook going on and on about how Joe Pa's statue should of never come down. That place is like a freaking cult and it's scary.

cryinoutloud: I was listening to the radio yesterday and got to hear all the whining from local business owners around Penn State about how unfair it was that they were being penalized for something that they didn't do. Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?

And that's why this country is now a shiathole. The end.

The profits from the program were also because of something they didn't do as well. I wonder if that has occurred to them.

you have pee hands: Could they? Is that even legal? I'm not a rule that "if you fark up your salary is retroactively forfeit" is enforceable by anyone in the US, let alone the NCAA, though IANAL.

From this article, it is explained that the NCAA doesn't have the power to hire/fire a coach. But, under the show-cause penalty, schools must go before an infractions committee to explain why they want to hire the prospective slimeball and, if they do, they may be open to additional penalties at that time.

domino324: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

That's actually the reason they didn't use the death penalty. They didn't want to punish the hundreds of local businesses by depriving them of their best moneymaking period: Penn State football season. The sanctions chosen were intended to hurt the school while leaving the rest of the (admittedly batshiat) community unaffected.

Whether they've succeeded in that goal, or even whether that should have been the goal, is up for debate.

So is that the concept that Penn State football is too big to fail?

alywa: I think the penalty given is more meaningful than the death penalty. Removal of Paterno's legacy, 60 million to fund abuse outreach, and fans having to watch crappy football for the next 5+ years... Yeah, that'll do, NCAA.

And, more importantly, because PSU fans will still show up, it won't kill the local economy for people who had absolutely nothing to do with this.

I'm perfectly fine with the penalties. A 4 year Death Penalty is like dropping a nuke on Happy Valley, what the NCAA did was more of a drone strike with some Seal Team 6 action.

Has any of this been verified by the NCAA? Erickson 'says' the death penalty was on the table. According to TFA, NCAA said "no comment."

MugzyBrown: The NCAA would need to do it contractually with the coaches just like the NFL can suspend players and have them not paid while they are suspended or fine players/coaches.

I have to give you credit; of all the things people could joke about on a message board, I never thought someone could (presumably) with a straight face begin to argue that the NCAA should actually have THAT much more power.

The NCAA is so utterly past the point of corrupt and serving well beyond the scope of its original mission statement, they might be the first non-governmental organization that I think could, because of its own stupidity and arrogance, actually start a World War, or a famine, or...anything terrible. I'm only being slightly hyperbolic.

WalkingSnake: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Yep. When you spend decades covering up child rape to keep your football program, just fire a couple people and everything will be all better.

Yep, because it's easier for the NCAA to ignore that they themselves had a hand in creating the culture and actually take some actions against the individuals who are still alive and responsible (I'm looking at you, Tim Curley and Graham Spanier and your lack of a show-cause penalty) than it is to stick their finger to the wind and please the angry mob.

IlGreven: velvet_fog: Those poor Penn State fans. They get to watch Penn State play a full 12-game schedule but they're being cheated of traveling to Detroit to watch their favorite college football team play in the Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl against a juggernaut from the MAC. And now they won't get to take cheesy pictures with a tacky statue of a man who actively enabled a child molester for over a decade. Those poor fans.

And those poor, poor players. They still get to live their dream of playing Penn State football - on national TV, no less - or transferring immediately to another school, or not playing and still having their scholarships honored and getting a free education. The NCAA destroyed these players' lives in a witch hunt because they were obviously just jealous of Joe Paterno's success.

/the mind of a PSU apologist must be a scary, scary place

You know, there are people in State College who have no affiliation with Penn State and had no love for Joe Paterno who will suffer because of this ruling. But hey, they deserved it, right? If they were smart (and psychic), they'd've moved somewhere else while they still had the chance, right?

Every time anyone is ever punished for a crime, innocent people also suffer. Is that now an excuse to never punish anyone? Nope, can't jail him. He has a family who needs his salary. Nope, not him either. His business is the largest employer in town, and many will lose their jobs.

From now on we will punish only those with absolutely no ties to the community. It's only fair.

TheGhostofFarkPast: Biness: Fano: Occam's Razor: NCAA realized they didn't want to miss out on sweet sweet Penn State dollars for that long.

USC gets away with shiat for the same reason.

USC never covered up decades of child rape.

I still have a Penn State alum on his facebook going on and on about how Joe Pa's statue should of never come down. That place is like a freaking cult and it's scary.

I have one who knows my history with abuse who I finally had to block because she cannot comprehend how anyone could think any of what has happened is fair to PSU, and her fellow alumni friends keep piling on. It was like having someone spit in my face if I went to Facebook.

Yes the death penalty was "floated"

It's the Oogabooga or Death decision. Which is oddly fitting for this scandal.

TheBaldOneMpls: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

No snark intended, but what would you have the NCAA do? If they do nothing, it sends the message that if something like this happens again, the school can merely cut ties to anyone who can be linked to it and everything's a-okay. But on the flip side, of the four people tied to this whole thing, one will die in jail, two might die in jail, and the other one probably would die in jail if he didn't die first. To me, that seems like a pretty good deterrent.

TL;DR: I have no clue what I would've done if I was levying the penalties.

Methinks you're discounting the fact that combinations of prison and civil liability don't equate to "everything's a-okay".

WalkingSnake: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Yep. When you spend decades covering up child rape to keep your football program, just fire a couple people and everything will be all better.

Fire nothing. Both the NCAA and Penn State agreed to use the Freeh report. You have your list of those culpable in there - ban those farkers from ever working at an NCAA member institution again and ensure that no monies from the NCAA or member institutions ever reach them. Then you hit Penn State for a lack of institutional control, which is entirely legit, and make them suck a few years so the fans get the point as well.

As the NCAA did it, though, it didn't show any discrimination or judgement. It was basically a zero tolerance blanket punishment that didn't actually impact the people responsible for child rape.

I don't know why people can't get that through their damn thick heads. The child rape and NCAA violations need to be separated out to get across what was wrong, what punishments apply to what items, and who is paying for what. Just throwing out a blanket punishment outside the bounds of anything that's ever been done (process wise), that doesn't actually address the core crimes you're ostensibly punishing for is stupid.

meow said the dog: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Someone will now tell you that you do the supporting of child rape. They will repeat this ad nauseam.

What year did you graduate from Penn State?

This text is now purple: AdamK: the coverup wasn't to support child rape (tho it did indirectly), the coverup was to protect the football program

That's not been proven. Sandusky wasn't an active coach in the period in question. The coverup was more about the image of the school than about the team directly -- and that's a hazy area of jurisdiction for the NCAA. Certainly no competitive sporting advantage was gained, and no NCAA rules were broken. Although popular, this is all just extra-legal witchhunting by an agency desperately seeking the moral high-ground on some issue, to distract from how the NCAA has been quasi-legally making billions by exploiting minors for almost 100 years.

Quoted for truth.
/Ex-Division I athletic administrator

LesserEvil: I'm not going to bother responding directly, since logic and facts are always blatantly ignored by that bunch... but I will say that everything is a done deal at this point. All the whining in the world will not change the situation, and only makes you look more asinine.


I look upon Paterno and Penn State (to a lesser degree) defenders with a certain amount of derision, and find their spin sad and tragic. I might find it funny, except that there are REAL victims here, victims who don't shout "WE ARE" or flip over TV Vans; victims who remained silent out of fear and shame. Victims who don't give a rats ass if a GAME is played on Saturday, or that when it is played, they don't care if the quality of the team isn't as good as it once was, or that some nasty old coach who thought protecting his program was somehow a fair exchange for the anal rape of children had lost his precious record and his precious shrine.


It's amusing to me that you make a big show of being logically superior, and then proceed to base your entire argument on a strawman you invented which in no way reflects any of the arguments in the thread or discussion at large.

AeAe: meow said the dog: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Someone will now tell you that you do the supporting of child rape. They will repeat this ad nauseam.

What year did you graduate from Penn State?

Don't feed the troll.

theurge14: [i.imgur.com image 160x150]

Start a department slush-fund and pay players under the table for 16 years and keep it quiet...until getting caught by the NCAA and punished. Then continue cutting checks anyway with the payments coming directly from the office of the president of the university and getting caught again.


Just for the sake of completeness and not trying to draw any comparisons between SMU and Penn State.

What Penn State apologists don't realize is that the message being sent is that Penn State paid off the NCAA with $60 million to avoid any real punishment. This makes taunting them at away games in the cruelest ways imaginable fair game. Yes, the death penalty would have sucked, but PSU would have regained some dignity and respect. Decent people would then forgive and tell taunters to STFU and GBTW. Now, there will never be forgiveness, and rightfully so.

Expect the stands at away games to be filled with this:



/I will pay $40 for Pay Per View if the NCAA schedules an away game for Penn State at Stanford
//if I was SMU I'd be furious - Penn State makes what they did look like kids stealing a piggy bank

SharkTrager: AeAe: meow said the dog: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Someone will now tell you that you do the supporting of child rape. They will repeat this ad nauseam.

What year did you graduate from Penn State?

Don't feed the troll.

I should know better.

alywa: I think the penalty given is more meaningful than the death penalty. Removal of Paterno's legacy, 60 million to fund abuse outreach, and fans having to watch crappy football for the next 5+ years... Yeah, that'll do, NCAA.

How exactly is watching crappy football more meaningful than watching now football, and then after that, watching crappy football?

Vacating the wins meaningless. Nobody cares about how many wins a dead coach has -- you cannot recruit on that. And if there is anything that's a slap in the face to the people who were part of the football program but had nothing to do with the scandal, this is it.

Fano is exactly right: There was a limit to what the NCAA wanted to do to PSU because it's football program is such a cash cow, but they needed to do something to appear tough.

namegoeshere: IlGreven: velvet_fog:

Every time anyone is ever punished for a crime, innocent people also suffer. Is that now an excuse to never punish anyone? Nope, can't jail him. He has a family who needs his salary. Nope, not him either. His business is the largest employer in town, and many will lose their jobs.

From now on we will punish only those with absolutely no ties to the community. It's only fair.

No one is saying there should be no punishment because of the crimes. People are just saying that punishments should MINIMIZE the damage to innocents as much as possible.

Just as you would agree it would be ridiculous to let no one get punished ever in order to protect innocents, I am sure you would also agree to say repossess the house of a thief's family to pay restitution, or put a murderer's neighbor on house arrest because he surely must have known something.

Simply because you cannot avoid collateral damage doesn't mean that a reasonable punishment cannot minimize it.

bulldg4life: lGreven: You know, there are people in State College who have no affiliation with Penn State and had no love for Joe Paterno who will suffer because of this ruling. But hey, they deserved it, right? If they were smart (and psychic), they'd've moved somewhere else while they still had the chance, right?

Nobody should ever be punished for any wrongdoing because it could affect people that weren't involved at all?

What businesses suffered when Jerry Sandusky was convicted of his crimes?

Which ones will suffer when Curley, Schultz, and Spanier are convicted of the cover-up?

Other than the families of the ones involved, who suffers when Curley, Schultz, Spanier, and the Paterno estate are sued into oblivion?

And other than those directly tied to PSU, who suffers when Penn State loses most of its money in settlements to the victims?

...meanwhile, again, business owners with no ties to PSU will go under thanks to the NCAA's ruling...that will not have been under any of the above. Is such collateral damage acceptable to you because a guy he never knew raped kids and his buddies, one of whom he might have known but had no association with, used the university to cover it up? Is there truly a compelling interest for the NCAA to do this to the university and the community at large, other than "send a message" that no other school will get, because they think it can't happen to them?

I wonder how the NCAA would have explained to Ohio State, Michigan, et. al. that they were going to have a blank space in their schedule this year, with no way to fill it.

The Third Man: I wonder how the NCAA would have explained to Ohio State, Michigan, et. al. that they were going to have a blank space in their schedule this year, with no way to fill it.

Pool party!!

cryinoutloud: I was listening to the radio yesterday and got to hear all the whining from local business owners around Penn State about how unfair it was that they were being penalized for something that they didn't do. Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?.

So it's OK if the NCAA strips you of your livelihood? Because it's about the kids, not you.

beta_plus: What Penn State apologists don't realize is that the message being sent is that Penn State paid off the NCAA with $60 million to avoid any real punishment. This makes taunting them at away games in the cruelest ways imaginable fair game. Yes, the death penalty would have sucked, but PSU would have regained some dignity and respect. Decent people would then forgive and tell taunters to STFU and GBTW. Now, there will never be forgiveness, and rightfully so.

But how many people won't even GO to those games, because the thought of even seeing them on the field is so nauseating? If I was the AD of any program hosting Penn State this coming season, I'd be enraged at the potential attendance shortfall. I guess we'll see what happens.

The NCAA should have done the right thing and at least cancelled PSU's 2012 season, and just filled in the vacated games with games scheduled amongst those teams effected.

beta_plus: What Penn State apologists don't realize is that the message being sent is that Penn State paid off the NCAA with $60 million to avoid any real punishment. This makes taunting them at away games in the cruelest ways imaginable fair game. Yes, the death penalty would have sucked, but PSU would have regained some dignity and respect. Decent people would then forgive and tell taunters to STFU and GBTW. Now, there will never be forgiveness, and rightfully so.

I doubt it. They'd get the same shiat either way, and the punishment came from the NCAA, not the other way around.

GoldSpider: cryinoutloud: I was listening to the radio yesterday and got to hear all the whining from local business owners around Penn State about how unfair it was that they were being penalized for something that they didn't do. Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?.

So it's OK if the NCAA strips you of your livelihood? Because it's about the kids, not you.

The NCAA isn't responsible for any of this. Penn State's child-rape enabling administration is. That's who they should be blaming, but no...these cult-ish sh*tbags still don't get it. Fark 'em.

The abuse that happened at Penn State was flat-out evil and deserves punishment. (It's awesome to see $60M going to support of abuse victims.) I have to say, though, the torch-and-pitchfork crowd is getting obnoxious.

I didn't go to Penn State and no one in my family did, but I grew up right in its central-PA sphere of influence. I associate the school with a hell of a lot more than football: cultural programs, community events, theatre, academic competitions, interesting research, sports like basketball and volleyball, concerts, etc. The presence of PSU enriched my formative years, and their satellite campus in my hometown is an affordable education for tons of young people.

JoePa and even the football program can sink into ignominious obscurity for all I care - I and many others found the adulation weird even before the scandal. I'm just incredibly tired of people baying for the destruction of the entire rest of the university, the local people, etc. Yeah, there are plenty of football-cult groupies who are still in denial. They're learning how stupid unqualified hero-worship is as they muddle through to the next grief stage. Yeah, punishments have unfortunate collateral damage; it happens. But can we stop pretending like that damage is a good thing? Can we stop shiatting on the multitudes of reasonable people whose only crime was happening to live in a certain region? It doesn't undo the abuse. It only hardens hearts and provides cheap righteous-indignance jollies.

The Third Man: I wonder how the NCAA would have explained to Ohio State, Michigan, et. al. that they were going to have a blank space in their schedule this year, with no way to fill it.

"No way"? Sure they could. It might be logistically difficult, but they could.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller:
The NCAA isn't responsible for any of this. Penn State's child-rape enabling administration is. That's who they should be blaming, but no...these cult-ish sh*tbags still don't get it. Fark 'em.

That's like saying an Afghani civilian should only be mad at the Taliban when his family is killed in collateral damage from a US drone strike.

This text is now purple: AdamK: the coverup wasn't to support child rape (tho it did indirectly), the coverup was to protect the football program

That's not been proven. Sandusky wasn't an active coach in the period in question. The coverup was more about the image of the school than about the team directly -- and that's a hazy area of jurisdiction for the NCAA. Certainly no competitive sporting advantage was gained, and no NCAA rules were broken. Although popular, this is all just extra-legal witchhunting by an agency desperately seeking the moral high-ground on some issue, to distract from how the NCAA has been quasi-legally making billions by exploiting minors for almost 100 years.

That's not right. There was a cover up because even though the crime was not football related, if it was made public, it would reflect poorly on the football program because it involved a football coach who used that position to help facilitate his crimes. Pure and simple, the PSU admin and Paterno were worried about the collateral damage.

Axissillian: namegoeshere: IlGreven: velvet_fog:

Every time anyone is ever punished for a crime, innocent people also suffer. Is that now an excuse to never punish anyone? Nope, can't jail him. He has a family who needs his salary. Nope, not him either. His business is the largest employer in town, and many will lose their jobs.

From now on we will punish only those with absolutely no ties to the community. It's only fair.

No one is saying there should be no punishment because of the crimes. People are just saying that punishments should MINIMIZE the damage to innocents as much as possible.

Just as you would agree it would be ridiculous to let no one get punished ever in order to protect innocents, I am sure you would also agree to say repossess the house of a thief's family to pay restitution, or put a murderer's neighbor on house arrest because he surely must have known something.

Simply because you cannot avoid collateral damage doesn't mean that a reasonable punishment cannot minimize it.

No, but thanks for playing.

Inchoate: I'm just incredibly tired of people baying for the destruction of the entire rest of the university, the local people, etc.

Like who?

Look, any collateral damage caused by the NCAA's punishment is 100% to blame on the parties in question. If the university at large and local businesses are harmed, their outrage should be directed at the program, not the NCAA.

IlGreven: Yes, this country would be better if more people were only willing to bend over and take it up the asshole when someone who has nothing in common with them aside from the same geographic region decides to get rapey.
/Meanwhile, Victim #4 disagrees with the Penn State punishment. Does he now deserve everything that happens to him, too?

I think that when people agree to live within a society that has rules, they agree to live by these rules. And one of the rules is that things other people do impact you. Both the good things (they give you money to run your business and make a living) and the bad things (whoops, Penn State farked up badly). The trouble is that everyone wants to be part of the good things, but nobody wants to be part of the bad things. "That has nothing to do with ME!" everybody cries.

Well, sweetheart, as I already said--it's not always about YOU. You liked it just fine when you were making $100,000 a year selling Penn State t-shirts for $40 that cost you $3 to buy from Taiwan. That was fair. But sharing in the bad things that Penn State now brings is somehow not fair. Too farking bad.

IlGreven: And other than those directly tied to PSU, who suffers when Penn State loses most of its money in settlements to the victims?

Students that had nothing to do with the cover-up? So, the huge civil lawsuits are ok and any resulting fund cuts are ok in that situation?

IlGreven: ..meanwhile, again, business owners with no ties to PSU will go under thanks to the NCAA's ruling...that will not have been under any of the above

The football team is still playing. Are you asserting that businesses will go under even WITHOUT the death penalty?

IlGreven: Is such collateral damage acceptable to you

That was my point in asking you...what level of collateral damage is ok when punishing someone?

MugzyBrown: The NCAA doesn't have the power to organize a national championship structure for most of Division 1 college football. Do you really think it will ever have the power to void a contract between a school and its coach?

It's unclear if the NCAA actually has that power, in the context of the state-run schools that make up a large percentage of the NCAA's member population. There are due-process and union requirements in many of those schools that are de jure, not de facto.

LL316: USC broke actual NCAA rules.

Systematically committing felonies for your football program is not exactly kosher. If two organizations, say Penn State and the NCAA, have a contract to do something and one discovers that the other is systematically committing felonies related to their contract.... NCAA could kick out Penn State completely out and forever if it wished. The criminal activity at Penn State gives them that right. I would be shocked if the courts would not support the NCAA if they chose that route. And contracts often have morals clauses as well such clauses usually mention it is a requirement to obey relevant laws and minimum standards of decency. Also I am very sure that the agreements between the schools and the NCAA says something about the good of students, sportsmanship, etc.

So yes, Penn State has sinned against the NCAA and the NCAA has the right punish Penn State so long as Penn State remains a member.

Axissillian: SacriliciousBeerSwiller:
The NCAA isn't responsible for any of this. Penn State's child-rape enabling administration is. That's who they should be blaming, but no...these cult-ish sh*tbags still don't get it. Fark 'em.

That's like saying an Afghani civilian should only be mad at the Taliban when his family is killed in collateral damage from a US drone strike.

No, it's really not.

Killer Cars: MugzyBrown: The NCAA would need to do it contractually with the coaches just like the NFL can suspend players and have them not paid while they are suspended or fine players/coaches.

I have to give you credit; of all the things people could joke about on a message board, I never thought someone could (presumably) with a straight face begin to argue that the NCAA should actually have THAT much more power.

The NCAA is so utterly past the point of corrupt and serving well beyond the scope of its original mission statement, they might be the first non-governmental organization that I think could, because of its own stupidity and arrogance, actually start a World War, or a famine, or...anything terrible. I'm only being slightly hyperbolic.

"Hey, NCAA, why have you just ordered all of the Division I-A athletes to capture Mexico City?"

"LOLZ-Lack of institutional control!"

/More overreaching and dangerous than the Monroe Doctrine

protectyourlimbs:
No, but thanks for playing.

Translation: I am either incapable or unwilling to be moral and reasonable rather than ignorant and vengeful.

bulldg4life: This text is now purple: Athletic programs are not given power; they take it.

Well, duh. I'm not sure what you were going for with that explanation. The programs that bring in the money and attention get the power on campus. I wouldn't mind seeing that power restrained....at least to the point of reporting child rape instead of protecting the team.

You're missing my point. Athletic teams with power are not top-down creations, they are bottom-up creations. A school can no more easily reign in an alumni-fueled program than UPenn could limit the influence of the Wharton business school -- at some point, it becomes a self-sustaining entity that drives the rest of the school, and has important benefits to the school's academic performance.

cryinoutloud: Well, sweetheart, as I already said--it's not always about YOU. You liked it just fine when you were making $100,000 a year selling Penn State t-shirts for $40 that cost you $3 to buy from Taiwan. That was fair. But sharing in the bad things that Penn State now brings is somehow not fair. Too farking bad.

Actually...

http://pennstate.usas.org/

They also got arrested a few years back for a massive sit in protest at... gasp... Graham Spanier's office.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Inchoate: I'm just incredibly tired of people baying for the destruction of the entire rest of the university, the local people, etc.

Like who?

Look, any collateral damage caused by the NCAA's punishment is 100% to blame on the parties in question. If the university at large and local businesses are harmed, their outrage should be directed at the program, not the NCAA.

Like who? Check any comment thread on this issue and you'll find hordes of HURR HURR SALT THE EARTH torchwavers.
If you read my post again, you'll notice that I did not criticize the NCAA decision therein.

/the NCAA are a bunch of shiatbags for a whole host of reasons unrelated to this

GoldSpider: cryinoutloud: I was listening to the radio yesterday and got to hear all the whining from local business owners around Penn State about how unfair it was that they were being penalized for something that they didn't do. Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?.

So it's OK if the NCAA strips you of your livelihood? Because it's about the kids, not you.

PSU doesn't lose any games. What are you going on about?

rka: GoldSpider
PSU doesn't lose any games. What are you going on about?

Going on about all the people who think PSU should have been BANNED 4EVA.

We are trying to explain how the current punishments are actually pretty reasonable, and why totally destroying PSU athletics wouldn't have helped at all.

thornhill: This text is now purple: AdamK: the coverup wasn't to support child rape (tho it did indirectly), the coverup was to protect the football program

That's not been proven. Sandusky wasn't an active coach in the period in question. The coverup was more about the image of the school than about the team directly -- and that's a hazy area of jurisdiction for the NCAA. Certainly no competitive sporting advantage was gained, and no NCAA rules were broken. Although popular, this is all just extra-legal witchhunting by an agency desperately seeking the moral high-ground on some issue, to distract from how the NCAA has been quasi-legally making billions by exploiting minors for almost 100 years.

That's not right. There was a cover up because even though the crime was not football related, if it was made public, it would reflect poorly on the football program because it involved a football coach who used that position to help facilitate his crimes. Pure and simple, the PSU admin and Paterno were worried about the collateral damage.

The "coverup" related to Sandusky's actions after retirement as a coach, when he was an emeritus faculty and running a summer program. It has since come out that his actions preceded those by years, but the NCAA sanctions don't relate to that time frame. In the time period being punished, Sandusky was not a member of the football program, and the coverup related to the reputation of Penn State in general as much as to the football team specifically.

Conferences need 12 teams for a conference champion$hip game...

Nose, spite face and whatnot

Axissillian: protectyourlimbs:
No, but thanks for playing.

Translation: I am either incapable or unwilling to be moral and reasonable rather than ignorant and vengeful.

Or I don't want to argue the irony of your now being the time to worry about the innocent victims at PSU over going after those who covered up crimes so they wouldn't have to suffer...

Scoonie97: Conferences need 12 teams for a conference champion$hip game...

Nose, spite face and whatnot

Big Whatever should have dropped them and replaced them. Lots of candidates.

LesserEvil Smartest
Funniest
2012-07-26 11:08:00 AM


Lots of butthurt Penn State defenders football haters here, I see.

I'm not going to bother responding directly, since logic and facts are always blatantly ignored by that bunch... but I will say that everything is a done deal at this point. All the whining in the world will not change the situation, and only makes you look more asinine.


Agreed! They keep playing football! No death penalty! Please continue to writhe in frustration, like a spindly legged insect



/FT

They should have given PSU the death penalty for as long as the cover up existed.

But, they have no balls.
Ironic?

There should be more in prison for what went down, and I don't give a fark if the entire Centre county goes up in smoke.
YOU DON'T RAPE KIDS. THAT IS BAD.
YOU DON'T COVER UP FOR KID RAPERS. THAT IS WORSE!

What part of this do you Paterno cawk suckers not understand?

Nuke it for 15 years, and let them earn the privilege to play

rka: GoldSpider: cryinoutloud: I was listening to the radio yesterday and got to hear all the whining from local business owners around Penn State about how unfair it was that they were being penalized for something that they didn't do. Because who gives a fark about the kids and what happened, what about ME?.

So it's OK if the NCAA strips you of your livelihood? Because it's about the kids, not you.

PSU doesn't lose any games. What are you going on about?

Seriously. If businesses lose their livelihoods because of seven Saturdays in the fall, then they're bad businesses.

And besides - they ARE playing football! And guess what? All those Penn State football fans who feel they are victims will dump MORE money into the State College economy. They'll feel it's their responsibility to "help out" Happy Valley! They'll buy extra T-shirts! A knock-off T-Shirt vendor can print up a 106,000 shirts that say "WE STILL ARE" and he will sell them out!

Penn State still has everything they want. They're upset because they're not GUARANTEED to be good or competitive, as if that's some kind of right.

Anybody else running into some Penn State defenders who point to how much their "school" has donated to various causes as a way to justify why they shouldn't be punished? I had a few people go on and on about how much money they have given and that their research needs football to survive. I laughed because if the research is that good then it will stand on it's own it won't need football but apparently everybody is convinced the whole place is wired into football so it has to be left alone.

theurge14: (SMU STUFF)
Start a department slush-fund and pay players under the table for 16 years and keep it quiet...

Season cancelled
Next year's home games all cancelled
Bowl ban and TV ban for 2 years, probation for 3 years
55 scholarships pulled over next 4 years
All associated boosters and coaches banned indefinitely from program
Only allowed to hire 5 coaches for entire program
No recruiting allowed for a year, no on campus visits allowed for 2 years

Effect? Program ruined, didn't reach a bowl game again for 20 years

No, it didn't ruin the program. It put it right where it should have been all along. They're a tiny school, they should have never been as successful or competitive as they were.

vudukungfu: YOU DON'T RAPE KIDS. THAT IS BAD.
YOU DON'T COVER UP FOR KID RAPERS. THAT IS WORSE!


fark yeah bro! What I can't get over is how all those catholic churches are still standing. Is it time we did something about that?

JohnBigBootay: What I can't get over is how all those catholic churches are still standing. Is it time we did something about that?

Those bastards need shot.
I'm all for imprisoning any cops who knew about it going back as far as legally possible and if they knew aything, and did nothingn they should be doing brown time with bubba.

stonicus: theurge14: (SMU STUFF)
Start a department slush-fund and pay players under the table for 16 years and keep it quiet...

Season cancelled
Next year's home games all cancelled
Bowl ban and TV ban for 2 years, probation for 3 years
55 scholarships pulled over next 4 years
All associated boosters and coaches banned indefinitely from program
Only allowed to hire 5 coaches for entire program
No recruiting allowed for a year, no on campus visits allowed for 2 years

Effect? Program ruined, didn't reach a bowl game again for 20 years

No, it didn't ruin the program. It put it right where it should have been all along. They're a tiny school, they should have never been as successful or competitive as they were.

So where does TCU's recent success fit into this enlightening analysis of yours? Or Stanford's? Neither is much bigger than SMU and they have had very strong programs in recent years.

Displacement In Freudian psychology, displacement (German Verschiebung, 'shift' or 'move') is an unconscious defense mechanism whereby the mind redirects effects from an object felt to be dangerous or unacceptable to an object felt to be safe or acceptable.

So the NCAA farked us? or is it the program that we adore?

Good, the program didn't need to be punished like that after those that were involved, were no longer there to experience the penalties.

vudukungfu: They should have given PSU the death penalty for as long as the cover up existed.

But, they have no balls.
Ironic?

There should be more in prison for what went down, and I don't give a fark if the entire Centre county goes up in smoke.
YOU DON'T RAPE KIDS. THAT IS BAD.
YOU DON'T COVER UP FOR KID RAPERS. THAT IS WORSE!

What part of this do you Paterno cawk suckers not understand?

Nuke it for 15 years, and let them earn the privilege to play

I'm betting you're a troll but against my better judgement, sure, I'll bite.

I think the punishment was sufficient. The death penalty is stupid because YOU DON'T PUNISH INNOCENT PEOPLE. If the CEO of Ford goes on a rampage and kills a dozen people and the board of trustees covers it up, you don't shut down the whole company! It makes no sense! What part of this do YOU not understand?

vudukungfu Smartest
Funniest
2012-07-26 12:11:01 PM


They should have given PSU the death penalty for as long as the cover up existed.

But, they have no balls.
Ironic?

There should be more in prison for what went down, and I don't give a fark if the entire Centre county goes up in smoke.
YOU DON'T RAPE KIDS. THAT IS BAD.
YOU DON'T COVER UP FOR KID RAPERS. THAT IS WORSE!

What part of this do you Paterno cawk suckers not understand?

Nuke it for 15 years, and let them earn the privilege to play



I put it to you, Greg, isn't this an indictment of our entire American way of life?!?

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: The Third Man: I wonder how the NCAA would have explained to Ohio State, Michigan, et. al. that they were going to have a blank space in their schedule this year, with no way to fill it.

"No way"? Sure they could. It might be logistically difficult, but they could.

How? Schedules these days are agreed on years in advance; the season starts in six weeks. The Big Ten teams would have to pick an out-of-conference team with an off week to fill the space. Let's take Ohio State, scheduled to play away at Penn State on October 27. The chances of a BCS conference school willingly adding Ohio State to their schedule at this point are about zero, so we're really looking at mid-major schools with an off day on October 27. But by that point all of the conferences are deep into their conference schedules. So here is a full list of the available schools that Ohio State could play on October 27:

1. Tulsa
2. Arkansas State
3. Idaho

That's it. AND keep in mind that Ohio State has to play this game away from Columbus, because they already have eight home games on their schedule and that's the maximum under NCAA rules. And also keep in mind that they can't just say "OK, we just won't play on October 27," because it's also against NCAA regs to play only three away games. So Ohio State is somehow going to have to convince either Tulsa, Arkansas State, or Idaho to spend money they don't have (as it happens those three schools are about in the toilet financially) to host a game they're bound to lose.

Now do you think this is just "logistically difficult"?

Money Talks
Everything else walks

Hatorade: stonicus:

No, it didn't ruin the program. It put it right where it should have been all along. They're a tiny school, they should have never been as successful or competitive as they were.

So where does TCU's recent success fit into this enlightening analysis of yours? Or Stanford's? Neither is much bigger than SMU and they have had very strong programs in recent years.

The point is that SMU was a crappy team that turned itself into a national powerhouse by cheating. The NCAA's sanctions knocked it back down to being just a crappy team.

If you look at SMU's record over 20 years from 1960-1979 they had 13 seasons of 3-6 wins, 3 seasons of 7+ wins, and 4 seasons of fewer than 3 wins. Then, they started cheating and went 41-5 over four years from 1981-1984. After the canceled 1987-1988 seasons, they were turned into a 1-2 win program for the next seven years. After that, they returned to being the 3-6 win team they had always been. Over the last 16 years, they've had 10 3-6 win seasons, 3 7+ win seasons, and 3 years with fewer than 3 wins.

The NCAA sanctions didn't "destroy" SMU. They seriously damaged the program for seven years at which point they became the same program they would have been had they not spent five years plying Craig James and company with hookers and booze. I expect the same will happen to Penn State. Expect six or seven years of 3-6 wins and then they'll get back to their usual 8-9 win seasons.

Tomahawk513: vudukungfu: They should have given PSU the death penalty for as long as the cover up existed.

But, they have no balls.
Ironic?

There should be more in prison for what went down, and I don't give a fark if the entire Centre county goes up in smoke.
YOU DON'T RAPE KIDS. THAT IS BAD.
YOU DON'T COVER UP FOR KID RAPERS. THAT IS WORSE!

What part of this do you Paterno cawk suckers not understand?

Nuke it for 15 years, and let them earn the privilege to play

I'm betting you're a troll but against my better judgement, sure, I'll bite.

I think the punishment was sufficient. The death penalty is stupid because YOU DON'T PUNISH INNOCENT PEOPLE. If the CEO of Ford goes on a rampage and kills a dozen people and the board of trustees covers it up, you don't shut down the whole company! It makes no sense! What part of this do YOU not understand?

If the CEO had done it before but Ford covered it up to save its image and then the CEO did it again after... then yes.

/do you understand now?

NomadEngineer: Shoulda banned 'em permanently, with an appeal every ten years so they can remind everybody why they're banned.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

doubled99: What a fantastic week for manufactured outrage!

Anger over children being raped, and their rapes being swept under the rug in the name of Football.. is not manufactured. If one cannot feel anger over this, then what should one feel outrage over?

Inchoate: The abuse that happened at Penn State was flat-out evil and deserves punishment. (It's awesome to see $60M going to support of abuse victims.) I have to say, though, the torch-and-pitchfork crowd is getting obnoxious.

I didn't go to Penn State and no one in my family did, but I grew up right in its central-PA sphere of influence. I associate the school with a hell of a lot more than football: cultural programs, community events, theatre, academic competitions, interesting research, sports like basketball and volleyball, concerts, etc. The presence of PSU enriched my formative years, and their satellite campus in my hometown is an affordable education for tons of young people.

JoePa and even the football program can sink into ignominious obscurity for all I care - I and many others found the adulation weird even before the scandal. I'm just incredibly tired of people baying for the destruction of the entire rest of the university, the local people, etc. Yeah, there are plenty of football-cult groupies who are still in denial. They're learning how stupid unqualified hero-worship is as they muddle through to the next grief stage. Yeah, punishments have unfortunate collateral damage; it happens. But can we stop pretending like that damage is a good thing? Can we stop shiatting on the multitudes of reasonable people whose only crime was happening to live in a certain region? It doesn't undo the abuse. It only hardens hearts and provides cheap righteous-indignance jollies.

/THIS !

Tabe: Inchoate: The abuse that happened at Penn State was flat-out evil and deserves punishment. (It's awesome to see $60M going to support of abuse victims.) I have to say, though, the torch-and-pitchfork crowd is getting obnoxious.

I didn't go to Penn State and no one in my family did, but I grew up right in its central-PA sphere of influence. I associate the school with a hell of a lot more than football: cultural programs, community events, theatre, academic competitions, interesting research, sports like basketball and volleyball, concerts, etc. The presence of PSU enriched my formative years, and their satellite campus in my hometown is an affordable education for tons of young people.

JoePa and even the football program can sink into ignominious obscurity for all I care - I and many others found the adulation weird even before the scandal. I'm just incredibly tired of people baying for the destruction of the entire rest of the university, the local people, etc. Yeah, there are plenty of football-cult groupies who are still in denial. They're learning how stupid unqualified hero-worship is as they muddle through to the next grief stage. Yeah, punishments have unfortunate collateral damage; it happens. But can we stop pretending like that damage is a good thing? Can we stop shiatting on the multitudes of reasonable people whose only crime was happening to live in a certain region? It doesn't undo the abuse. It only hardens hearts and provides cheap righteous-indignance jollies.

/THIS !

So not that.

I dont see anyone clamoring for the destruction of PSU, if so where? All I see is PSU defenders saying they are the victims because the people dont feel sympathy for the punishments effecting innocent parties.

PSU itself should not be so ignorant to think that hiding behind innocent victims defense as reason why the punishment is unfair... but its supporters over this seem to think so. So much that they are worried that now its public more victims will pop up just to get money.

Here is a hint, to everyone who is against this whole situation its not that they are against PSU and just want to see it burn out of hate for the football team, its because unlike PSU supporters the rest of the world can see the obvious, the one thing that could have stopped this from all happening in the first place... Its only a game.

protectyourlimbs:
If the CEO had done it before but Ford covered it up to save its image and then the CEO did it again after... then yes.

/do you understand now?

Thank you.

Jesum crow. I just got back from Centre County and my head still hurts from having to talk to people with an IQ of HURR.

Sandusky was such a good Linebacker coach becuase he was teaching young men how to tackle and cover tight ends something he is apperently an expert in..

should have been the death penalty. and if not that then 96 scholarships over 4 years or 120 over 5. the ncaa failed per usual. as game recognizes game. money never punishes money. and the funny thing is that this is now the maximum penalty the ncaa can give since let's hope there's never something worse than the decade plus institutional concealment and enabling of child rape.

Protectyourlimbs

I think you need to read that again. Nowhere in there did it say anything about the penalties being fair or unfair. There are posts all over the internet where people want to "NUKE" the entire campus. What Inchoate was saying is that there is more to PSU than Football and Enablers. There is plenty of GOOD at PSU.

/Not a PSU Football Fan

IAmRight: The Third Man: So Ohio State is somehow going to have to convince either Tulsa, Arkansas State, or Idaho to spend money they don't have (as it happens those three schools are about in the toilet financially) to host a game they're bound to lose.

Hey, they could just play at the other location for free in order to make it possible. Other schools would like a guaranteed sellout.

/there would still be problems for all the other opponents

Well that's if they can do it. A lot of smaller schools these days are holding events at their stadiums to try to maximize revenue. Ohio State can afford to use their place only seven or eight times a year, lots of smaller schools can't. And guaranteed sellouts aren't all they're cracked up to be--Idaho's stadium only holds 16,000, for example. Selling out tickets is going to be barely enough to cover short-notice security and traffic detail, etc.

When SMU got the death penalty it was in February, and there was plenty of time to adjust schedules, etc. Six weeks before the season, you're effectively making that impossible. It might have ended up costing the NCAA millions to reimburse Ohio State, Michigan, etc. for loss of revenue. All their lawyers would need to do was prove the NCAA president contravened NCAA bylaws in making a unilateral decision...which, of course, he did, which is why the Penn State president had to sign a consent form that they accepted the penalties. Otherwise the NCAA would have been open to lawsuits down the road for breach of contract.

In a nutshell, getting twelve schools to agree that, "OK, we're going to lose millions of dollars because of some other school's infraction but although the NCAA president overstepped his bounds in making that decision (which, we stress, is going to cost us millions of dollars) we promise not to sue" was never going to happen. Remember the golden rule of the NCAA: When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money. The death penalty was seriously never on the table, and IMHO it never will be for any future big-time football infraction.

The NCAA penalty is a joke. As a huge college sports fan, it makes sick to my stomach.

I wonder what a school would have to do to earn a season off at this point?

beta_plus: //if I was SMU I'd be furious - Penn State makes what they did look like kids stealing a piggy bank

and miami is ecstatic. using the new ncaa scale a booster hosting multiple hooker and blow parties is likely only the lost of 2 scholarships, a $10 fine, and vacating 10 september marlins victories (if they have 10).

Rembrant_Q_Einstein: The NCAA penalty is a joke. As a huge college sports fan, it makes sick to my stomach.

I wonder what a school would have to do to earn a season off at this point?

be western kentucky. don't be penn state.

The Third Man: When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money. The death penalty was seriously never on ...

Because FOOTBALL.
And Money.

Screw the kids.
Literally.

the NCAA is complicit in child rape if they didn't just say, "know what, PSU? Farkyou and the kids you rode in on. GTFO and never darken our door again" But they didn't
they gave the people who cover up child rape a second chance.
These the kind of people you want living in your neighborhood?

Lotta stinky pinkies all around.

J Bag: Seriously. If businesses lose their livelihoods because of seven Saturdays in the fall, then they're bad businesses.

All tourist businesses work this way. Imagine how long Aspen would last in a year with no snow.

theurge14: [i.imgur.com image 160x150]

Start a department slush-fund and pay players under the table for 16 years and keep it quiet...

Season cancelled
Next year's home games all cancelled
Bowl ban and TV ban for 2 years, probation for 3 years
55 scholarships pulled over next 4 years
All associated boosters and coaches banned indefinitely from program
Only allowed to hire 5 coaches for entire program
No recruiting allowed for a year, no on campus visits allowed for 2 years

Effect? Program ruined, didn't reach a bowl game again for 20 years

[i.imgur.com image 420x315]

Assistant coach rapes boys in the locker room, other coaches and administration covers it up for years...

12 years of wins vacated, including conference titles won
40 scholarships pulled over next 4 years, limited to 65 total
Bowl ban for 4 years, 5 years probation
$60 million fine
Reform agreements with NCAA and Big Ten with on campus compliance officers, councils and other NCAA officials and monitors

Effect? Who knows...

GODDAMM IT SO MUCH, THIS!!!!

IAmRight: Hey, you ought to kill yourself since you aren't doing anything to punish Penn State.

Even better, IIRC, he worked in the area and therefore benefited from child rape. He shouldn't be employed, anywhere, ever again. For that matter he should be with the thousands that are rounded up into the stadium just before it's nuked from orbit.

stonicus: Effect? Program ruined, didn't reach a bowl game again for 20 years

No, it didn't ruin the program. It put it right where it should have been all along.

SMU is twice the size of Wake Forest (Orange Bowl appearance) and slightly larger than Notre Dame.

I was pulling for the Death Penalty (DP), but I guess Annulling their wins, Taxing their profits, and Muzzling their scholarships (ATM) will have to do.

I know some at pedstate are Gagging on all the hard punishments, but they're just going to have Swallow their pride because they earned that Spanking.

/In other words: Farkem.

As someone who uses the Penn State athletic locker rooms on occasion, I would never, NEVER report any kiddie diddling I see there for fear of incurring even more public wrath.

The lesson I learned from all this is do a better job at hiding the evidence.

The Third Man: Now do you think this is just "logistically difficult"?

so the death penalty starts next year? 13 months to plan.

or just take away 125 scholarships over 5 years. just because it's difficult isn't a reason not to punish penn state severely. the ncaa was setting a new "max" penalty maybe they should have gone to the max.

Meatschool: IAmRight: Hey, you ought to kill yourself since you aren't doing anything to punish Penn State.

Even better, IIRC, he worked in the area and therefore benefited from child rape. He shouldn't be employed, anywhere, ever again. For that matter he should be with the thousands that are rounded up into the stadium just before it's nuked from orbit.

Infidel defilers! They shall all drown in lakes of blood.

Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will know why they fear the night!

A Fark Handle: The Third Man: Now do you think this is just "logistically difficult"?

so the death penalty starts next year? 13 months to plan.

No way that would have happened, either. The NCAA president would have never been able to say, "Because of the severity of the infraction and the need to do something right away, I need to act unilaterally. The penalty starts in 13 months." Wouldn't have flown with the rest of the NCAA, no way.

Sliding Carp: Now we know that the NCAA cares about the specific crime that was enabled, but we see nothing that says they care about "the culture" so many people are screaming about. As long as the specific crime doesn't rise to the level we've seen at Penn State, there is no indication at all that anything related to "the culture" will change at any other school. Coaches will continue to be granted the power to do anything they want, just as long as there isn't any actual child rape.

The NCAA, by going over the top with severe sanctions, but tying their punishment to the emotionally charged specific instance, has missed a chance (in my opinion deliberately) to actually do something that might in fact affect "the culture" of football.

Genuine question: Could the NCAA do anything to seriously affect that culture? It is a human problem that goes beyond college sports: People tend to cozy up to those with influence and gloss over their misdeeds to get perks. (Good luck changing that. *sigh*) Taking football's influence away from one school still leaves it in place at all the others.

(This is assuming the NCAA actually gives two farks about morality or fairness. Much like FIFA and the IOC and... hell, most large wealthy orgs of any kind, they care about two things: $$$, and sufficiently good PR to keep that filthy lucre flowing. That's all.)

TheyCallMeC0WB0Y: As someone who uses the Penn State athletic locker rooms on occasion, I would never, NEVER report any kiddie diddling I see there for fear of incurring even more public wrath.

The lesson I learned from all this is do a better job at hiding the evidence.

yourenothelping.jpg

Axissillian: namegoeshere: IlGreven: velvet_fog:

Every time anyone is ever punished for a crime, innocent people also suffer. Is that now an excuse to never punish anyone? Nope, can't jail him. He has a family who needs his salary. Nope, not him either. His business is the largest employer in town, and many will lose their jobs.

From now on we will punish only those with absolutely no ties to the community. It's only fair.

No one is saying there should be no punishment because of the crimes. People are just saying that punishments should MINIMIZE the damage to innocents as much as possible.

Just as you would agree it would be ridiculous to let no one get punished ever in order to protect innocents, I am sure you would also agree to say repossess the house of a thief's family to pay restitution, or put a murderer's neighbor on house arrest because he surely must have known something.

Simply because you cannot avoid collateral damage doesn't mean that a reasonable punishment cannot minimize it.

If punishment ever considered minimizing the impact on innocents, there would be no death penalty for anyone with living relatives or close friends. That family you talked about likely will have their house forclosed upon if you deny them the income that is paying the mortgage. We send that thief to jail anyway.

As for putting the neighbor on house arrest, that is a terrible comparrison, as that is a criminal penalty. No one has been charged with a crime who did not (allegedly) commit a crime.

Yes, there will be financial hardships for those who knew nothing. That sucks, but it is what it is. There are financial hardships for anyone asscoiated with a business that shuts down due to criminal behavior. Again, that sucks, but we do not let the business continue just because others are financially dependent upon it.

IAmRight:
Hey, you ought to kill yourself since you aren't doing anything to punish Penn State.

Actually, I'm working on it.
Had dinner with a Pa. State senator last weekend and met with the Governor to discuss it. But you keep farking that chicken.

As a connected person, and a Vet, and a PSU alum, I know people.
I talk to them.
I tend to get things done.

Enjoy your chicken.
Or is that crow?

IAmRight: A Fark Handle: just because it's difficult isn't a reason not to punish penn state severely.

And "just because you can" or "to send a message that this is unacceptable" (yeah, I'm sure jail time and public scorn aren't going to be enough to deter crimes like this, but NCAA sanctions are) is a stupid reason to punish them any more severely than they were.

you're right those would be stupid reasons. but c) "for the decade plus institutional concealment and enabling of a serial child rapist" is a great reason to punish penn state more severely than the ncaa did.

namegoeshere: If punishment ever considered minimizing the impact on innocents, there would be no death penalty for anyone with living relatives or close friends. That family you talked about likely will have their house forclosed upon if you deny them the income that is paying the mortgage. We send that thief to jail anyway.

The difference here is the way the NCAA did it. The NCAA president by his own admission overstepped bylaws--aka the NCAA contract--to enforce the penalty, and Penn State agreed to that. PSU has no legal leg to stand on since they consented to the contract breach, but other NCAA institutions would have if the death penalty happened.

Put it this way: you're confusing civil and contract law with criminal law. Criminal law doesn't need to consider impact on third parties, but civil and contract law often does.

Rembrant_Q_Einstein: The NCAA penalty is a joke. As a huge college sports fan, it makes sick to my stomach.

I wonder what a school would have to do to earn a season off at this point?

Break NCAA rules repeatedly.

The Third Man: namegoeshere: If punishment ever considered minimizing the impact on innocents, there would be no death penalty for anyone with living relatives or close friends. That family you talked about likely will have their house forclosed upon if you deny them the income that is paying the mortgage. We send that thief to jail anyway.

The difference here is the way the NCAA did it. The NCAA president by his own admission overstepped bylaws--aka the NCAA contract--to enforce the penalty, and Penn State agreed to that. PSU has no legal leg to stand on since they consented to the contract breach, but other NCAA institutions would have if the death penalty happened.

Put it this way: you're confusing civil and contract law with criminal law. Criminal law doesn't need to consider impact on third parties, but civil and contract law often does.

So what you are saying is:

Death penalty = affects other schools = they could sue for loss of revenue?

vs.

Sanctions = PSU signs the waiver = no potential backlash for overstepping the bylaws?

Although this begs the question, is it a given that the bylaws have been bypassed?

/Not being snarky, honestly asking
//Also wanted to throw a "begs the question" into this hotbed of discussion
///Would make sense why this was pursued, from a legal standpoint

vudukungfu: IAmRight:
Hey, you ought to kill yourself since you aren't doing anything to punish Penn State.

Actually, I'm working on it.
Had dinner with a Pa. State senator last weekend and met with the Governor to discuss it. But you keep farking that chicken.

As a connected person, and a Vet, and a PSU alum, I know people.
I talk to them.
I tend to get things done.

Enjoy your chicken.
Or is that crow?

Did you ask the Governor why he sat on the case for years while he continued to accept money from Second mile board members?

http://pawatercooler.com/v3/?tag=corbett-second-mile-campaign-contrib u tions

Tabe: Did you ask the Governor why he sat on the case for years while he continued to accept money from Second mile board members?

That was question #1. I didn't say it was a friendly conversation. I tend to make people squirm.
A lot.
Nature of my being.
I don't like shirkers of responsibility.

http://pawatercooler.com/v3/?tag=corbett-second-mile-campaign-contribu tions
/Doh

Dang!
It keeps putting spaces in after I submit it...Fark it :)

MadMattressMack: WalkingSnake: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Yep. When you spend decades covering up child rape to keep your football program, just fire a couple people and everything will be all better.

QFT.

That, and the current Penn state students and alumni keep being in support of Joe Paterno. They harassed the victims for coming out and accusing Penn state of covering it up. This wasn't just a couple of people acting messed up. It's a current mentality that still reflects in the actions of people in the town and school even after Sandusky rots for the rest of his pathetic life in jail and it came out that JoePa spent over a decade covering for him.

Fark them all.

This

Here's a suggestion for people who don't think the punishment is sufficient. When Penn State plays your team at your home stadium, don't go to the game. If enough people do this, it will send a strong message, including a financial hit (no parking money, no concessions, etc.) It's about the only way you can really get the message to everyone in football. Also, don't watch the game broadcast. Money is the only thing these people understand.

born_yesterday: The Third Man: namegoeshere: If punishment ever considered minimizing the impact on innocents, there would be no death penalty for anyone with living relatives or close friends. That family you talked about likely will have their house forclosed upon if you deny them the income that is paying the mortgage. We send that thief to jail anyway.

The difference here is the way the NCAA did it. The NCAA president by his own admission overstepped bylaws--aka the NCAA contract--to enforce the penalty, and Penn State agreed to that. PSU has no legal leg to stand on since they consented to the contract breach, but other NCAA institutions would have if the death penalty happened.

Put it this way: you're confusing civil and contract law with criminal law. Criminal law doesn't need to consider impact on third parties, but civil and contract law often does.

So what you are saying is:

Death penalty = affects other schools = they could sue for loss of revenue?

vs.

Sanctions = PSU signs the waiver = no potential backlash for overstepping the bylaws?

Although this begs the question, is it a given that the bylaws have been bypassed?

/Not being snarky, honestly asking
//Also wanted to throw a "begs the question" into this hotbed of discussion
///Would make sense why this was pursued, from a legal standpoint

Well, it's a good question. I think this was a can of worms the NCAA didn't want to risk opening.

In the past, when the NCAA investigated an infraction, there was a process that was followed: the Infractions Committee investigated it, the Executive Committee had to approve their findings, etc. Part of the contract between the NCAA and its member schools is that the schools promised not to violate NCAA by-laws, but if they did, they had some measure of process through investigation. Emmert stepped right over that process and handed down a verdict based on the Freeh Report, before the NCAA had done any investigation of its own. That AFAIK is unprecedented: the NCAA has never allowed a third party to do its investigation, and the NCAA president has never acted ex cathedra in this way.

That's why Penn State had to sign a consent form to any punishment. I don't think Penn State would have dared to sue them for breach of contract, but I could see the other member schools thinking, "Next time we get hit with accusations of a violation, are we going to lose our due process we're allowed under our NCAA contract?" After all, it's a lot easier and cheaper for the NCAA to just dispense with investigations and committee meetings and let its president decide on punishments. And before you say "well Penn State is a unique case," think of how easy it would be for the NCAA to not have to investigate minor matters. "Someone else said State Tech committed recruiting violations? OK, one-year postseason ban." And they could use the Penn State process as a precedent. "Well, everyone agreed that we could ignore by-laws for Penn State, why can't we do it in your case?"

Now in this case the difference between previous penalties like loss of scholarships or post-season bans and the death penalty is that there's a much bigger financial hit for other schools. Obviously it doesn't hurt Ohio State or Michigan financially that Penn State lost scholarships and can't be in the Big Ten Championship game--indeed, by increasing their chances of reaching the championship it helps them financially--but losing game revenue is a financial hit. If the NCAA had followed their by-laws in banning Penn State from playing, other schools couldn't have done anything about it: all the member schools agreed to those by-laws, and just like when SMU got the death penalty the other schools just have to live with the consequences. But if the NCAA did an end-run around its own by-laws...yeah, I'm not a lawyer and I only tangentially am involved with college sports, but I could see them being open to a civil suit.

Incidentally I think this is why a lot of NCAA execs and college sports people are privately said to be unhappy with the way the process occurred. Investigations are generally a good thing; yes, they take time, but they allow colleges to defend themselves and the NCAA to examine evidence. And I don't think the NCAA really wants a commissioner-type president anyway. I mean, Roger Goodell has his hands full with 32 NFL teams. The NCAA has over 1,000 member schools playing in dozens of sports. A hands-on commissioner would be going crazy trying to put out fires everywhere.

You Peen St. apologists are nearly unbelievable. I look forward to your football team's awful performance week after week for the foreseeable future. The Central Ball States and the Western Indiana Techs will make your football program the laughing stock that it should be, and your fans will hopefully will derive some sort of enjoyment from the team's ability to play, which is then harshly crushed by repeated humiliating defeats.

vudukungfu SmartestFunniest 2012-07-26 02:12:34 PM


IAmRight:
Hey, you ought to kill yourself since you aren't doing anything to punish Penn State.

Actually, I'm working on it.
Had dinner with a Pa. State senator last weekend and met with the Governor to discuss it. But you keep farking that chicken.

As a connected person, and a Vet, and a PSU alum, I know people.
I talk to them.
I tend to get things done.

Enjoy your chicken.
Or is that crow?



Farkin gold!
This should be a new meme. It's right up there with "gotta be at the gym in 26 minutes"
Maybe better.

"I know what I'll do. I'll prove myself to you!
You'll say, vudukungfu is a guy who can get things done!"

justtray: We should take every person who has ever supported the college in an indirect way, line them up in the street, and execute them military style as we read the names of the victims to them one at a time. That way they'll know it is NOT OKAY TO RAPE CHILDREN. That is really the only way to send a message so this will never happen again. Anything that was remotely connected to Sandunsky should be shamed and dismantled, and rightfully so. Every person that didn't go out of their way to take a personal interest in another's life to uncover this is an enabler, including the people reading this. YOU people saw him on TV every week. You saw how child rapey he looked and you didn't call or inform the police or anything. You all disgust me.

Nice strawman, but the fact remains that another assistant coach caught Sandusky during one of his shower escapades, went to Paterno about it, and Paterno and the higher ups at the university decided it was more important to protect the program's reputation than to report sexual abuse against children to the police. That's not "going out of there way to take a personal interest in another's life." That's having someone tell you someone committed a crime, and deciding to look the other way.

It was the university's decision to ignore this, so the university should face consequences.

A Fark Handle: beta_plus: //if I was SMU I'd be furious - Penn State makes what they did look like kids stealing a piggy bank

and miami is ecstatic. using the new ncaa scale a booster hosting multiple hooker and blow parties is likely only the lost of 2 scholarships, a $10 fine, and vacating 10 september marlins victories (if they have 10).

Don't forget that extra $5 fine for paying for the hooker abortion.

/the moral outrage for that one died down quickly...

IAmRight: SHUT DOWN ALL EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS AND AMERICA AND THE ENTIRE WORLD FOR NOT DOING MORE TO PUNISH PENN STATE. THEY'RE CLEARLY COMPLICIT.

Hey, you ought to kill yourself since you aren't doing anything to punish Penn State.

Heh. As someone who grew up in Alabama and has lived the last 20 years in Seattle (and who abhors child rape by the way and is quite happy there was a quick and just verdict in the Sandusky trial) I am THIS close to getting a penn state jersey just to be difficult.

So it really did come down to cowardice after all: they shielded a predator-shielding organization because football.

Six years would have been more appropriate: make damn sure that none of the current student body will play again unless they transfer out. Four would have been all right, though.

LoneWolf343: No. They just want to starve it to death slowly instead.

Penn State cannot possibly suck so much as an educational institution that it would shrivel up and die without football. Or if it truly is, then perhaps it should.

justtray: We should take every person who has ever supported the college in an indirect way, line them up in the street, and execute them military style as we read the names of the victims to them one at a time. That way they'll know it is NOT OKAY TO RAPE CHILDREN.

No need to do that. If football is as precious to them as they have made it out to be, then taking it away from them -in other words, a good swift kick in the motive- would be punishment enough.

GoldSpider: So it's OK if the NCAA strips you of your livelihood? Because it's about the kids, not you.

This argument has never held any water. Football's importance to the region is almost entirely cultural and aesthetic, not economic; the hit to the town will be minimal and easily-survivable. If the college itself were to go down, then things would be different, but that will not happen. Penn State can survive a death penalty: it would need to change to do that, but it needs to change anyway.

born_yesterday: Although this begs the question, is it a given that the bylaws have been bypassed?

By NCAA rules, the death penalty can only be applied to an offender already in probation for a previous infraction. PSU has no current probations. The application of a death penalty would be contra NCAA rules.

Millennium: This argument has never held any water. Football's importance to the region is almost entirely cultural and aesthetic, not economic; the hit to the town will be minimal and easily-survivable.

Don't overlook the economic value of going from the 12th largest city in Pennsylvania to the 3rd largest for 7-8 weeks per year.

Also, there's shiat-all besides State College in that part of the state. It's not like the locals have another nearby source of revenue.

LesserEvil: Lots of butthurt Penn State defenders here, I see.

[i.imgur.com image 540x405]

I'm not going to bother responding directly, since logic and facts are always blatantly ignored by that bunch... but I will say that everything is a done deal at this point. All the whining in the world will not change the situation, and only makes you look more asinine.


I look upon Paterno and Penn State (to a lesser degree) defenders with a certain amount of derision, and find their spin sad and tragic. I might find it funny, except that there are REAL victims here, victims who don't shout "WE ARE" or flip over TV Vans; victims who remained silent out of fear and shame. Victims who don't give a rats ass if a GAME is played on Saturday, or that when it is played, they don't care if the quality of the team isn't as good as it once was, or that some nasty old coach who thought protecting his program was somehow a fair exchange for the anal rape of children had lost his precious record and his precious shrine.

I would only ask this question then...

What if in the upcoming trials it turns out that Joe Paterno was concerned about what the revelation of Sandusky's 2001 incident would do to his football program, and was concerned that his long time friend get a fair hearing, but that ultimately he wanted to do the right thing and was overruled?

Yes, he still could have done more (he admitted as much), but then it's not a football problem or an "institutional control" problem and never was.

Millennium: So it really did come down to cowardice after all: they shielded a predator-shielding organization because football.

Six years would have been more appropriate: make damn sure that none of the current student body will play again unless they transfer out. Four would have been all right, though.

And every person in the USSR was guilty of deporting people to the Gulags. Makes sense.

Blowing up the Penn State football program is deeply counterproductive. The objective should be to encourage people to come forward to report abuse and you don't achieve that by applying sanctions that cause massive collateral damage.

People will end up justifiably scared of the consequences of coming forward. This is not a good result.

MrT: Blowing up the Penn State football program is deeply counterproductive. The objective should be to encourage people to come forward to report abuse and you don't achieve that by applying sanctions that cause massive collateral damage.

People will end up justifiably scared of the consequences of coming forward. This is not a good result.

you realize that if penn state had come forward when it knew (at least a decade ago) there would be no need to punish them for the concealing and enabling a child rapist. the punishment is for the cover up. it's not because sandusky raped kids. it's because penn state knew he was raping kids and protected him and enabled him to continue.

doubled99: You'll say, vudukungfu is a guy who can get things done!"

Just tell people you know "vudu kungfu"
And let life happen.
:)

Blame Hofmann: The Central Ball States and the Western Indiana Techs will make your football program the laughing stock that it should be, and your fans will hopefully will derive some sort of enjoyment from the team's ability to play, which is then harshly crushed by repeated humiliating defeats.

You forgot hearing the lamentation of their women.

MrT: Blowing up the Penn State football program is deeply counterproductive. The objective should be to encourage people to come forward to report abuse and you don't achieve that by applying sanctions that cause massive collateral damage.

People will end up justifiably scared of the consequences of coming forward. This is not a good result.

Seriously. We shouldn't put child rapists in jail. We should encourage them to go to a police station and confess.

If Paterno had raised hell starting at the moment he found out his buddy was a child rapist, everyone would have been furious with Paterno and his legacy would have been ruined.

The Third Man: IAmRight: The Third Man: So Ohio State is somehow going to have to convince either Tulsa, Arkansas State, or Idaho to spend money they don't have (as it happens those three schools are about in the toilet financially) to host a game they're bound to lose.

Hey, they could just play at the other location for free in order to make it possible. Other schools would like a guaranteed sellout.

/there would still be problems for all the other opponents

Well that's if they can do it. A lot of smaller schools these days are holding events at their stadiums to try to maximize revenue. Ohio State can afford to use their place only seven or eight times a year, lots of smaller schools can't. And guaranteed sellouts aren't all they're cracked up to be--Idaho's stadium only holds 16,000, for example. Selling out tickets is going to be barely enough to cover short-notice security and traffic detail, etc.

When SMU got the death penalty it was in February, and there was plenty of time to adjust schedules, etc. Six weeks before the season, you're effectively making that impossible. It might have ended up costing the NCAA millions to reimburse Ohio State, Michigan, etc. for loss of revenue. All their lawyers would need to do was prove the NCAA president contravened NCAA bylaws in making a unilateral decision...which, of course, he did, which is why the Penn State president had to sign a consent form that they accepted the penalties. Otherwise the NCAA would have been open to lawsuits down the road for breach of contract.

In a nutshell, getting twelve schools to agree that, "OK, we're going to lose millions of dollars because of some other school's infraction but although the NCAA president overstepped his bounds in making that decision (which, we stress, is going to cost us millions of dollars) we promise not to sue" was never going to happen. Remember the golden rule of the NCAA: When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money. The death penalty was serious ...

So how many threads,forums, etc have you been posting all of this in because nobody takes the time to just sit there and write all of this. I know you have been at least 10 of the past Penn state threads saying the same thing over and over again, we get it you think NCAA went to far and you wish good old Penn state could do their own thing. Do us a favor and move on now.

hdhale: Millennium: So it really did come down to cowardice after all: they shielded a predator-shielding organization because football.

Six years would have been more appropriate: make damn sure that none of the current student body will play again unless they transfer out. Four would have been all right, though.

And every person in the USSR was guilty of deporting people to the Gulags. Makes sense.

Three words: Acceptable. Collateral. Damage. The crime was that serious, and the guilt that widespread.

MrT: Blowing up the Penn State football program is deeply counterproductive. The objective should be to encourage people to come forward to report abuse and you don't achieve that by applying sanctions that cause massive collateral damage.

People will end up justifiably scared of the consequences of coming forward. This is not a good result.

Penn State, and the surrounding culture, did almost literally everything possible to discourage people from coming forward: that is, in fact, its crime in a nutshell. Punishing people who threaten those who would otherwise come forward is encouragement. Punishing them in a way that they lose what they sought to protect is even more encouraging: nothing should get a person off scot-free, especially as trivial and invalid a motive as the one they had.

Besides, the collateral damage is tiny and petty. Really: football? The only reason it's gotten so much opposition is due to being massively overvalued, then the truth is that they might as well be sentenced to never be allowed to eat cake for the next ten years. It's a bummer, but incapable of doing any real harm.

TheGhostofFarkPast: The Third Man: IAmRight: The Third Man: So Ohio State is somehow going to have to convince either Tulsa, Arkansas State, or Idaho to spend money they don't have (as it happens those three schools are about in the toilet financially) to host a game they're bound to lose.

Hey, they could just play at the other location for free in order to make it possible. Other schools would like a guaranteed sellout.

/there would still be problems for all the other opponents

Well that's if they can do it. A lot of smaller schools these days are holding events at their stadiums to try to maximize revenue. Ohio State can afford to use their place only seven or eight times a year, lots of smaller schools can't. And guaranteed sellouts aren't all they're cracked up to be--Idaho's stadium only holds 16,000, for example. Selling out tickets is going to be barely enough to cover short-notice security and traffic detail, etc.

When SMU got the death penalty it was in February, and there was plenty of time to adjust schedules, etc. Six weeks before the season, you're effectively making that impossible. It might have ended up costing the NCAA millions to reimburse Ohio State, Michigan, etc. for loss of revenue. All their lawyers would need to do was prove the NCAA president contravened NCAA bylaws in making a unilateral decision...which, of course, he did, which is why the Penn State president had to sign a consent form that they accepted the penalties. Otherwise the NCAA would have been open to lawsuits down the road for breach of contract.

In a nutshell, getting twelve schools to agree that, "OK, we're going to lose millions of dollars because of some other school's infraction but although the NCAA president overstepped his bounds in making that decision (which, we stress, is going to cost us millions of dollars) we promise not to sue" was never going to happen. Remember the golden rule of the NCAA: When they say it's not about the money, it's about the money. The death penalty was serious ...

So how many threads,forums, etc have you been posting all of this in because nobody takes the time to just sit there and write all of this. I know you have been at least 10 of the past Penn state threads saying the same thing over and over again, we get it you think NCAA went to far and you wish good old Penn state could do their own thing. Do us a favor and move on now.

Can you read? Did ANYTHING I wrote exonerate Penn State?

gimmegimme: If Paterno had raised hell starting at the moment he found out his buddy was a child rapist, everyone would have been furious with Paterno and his legacy would have been ruined.

Au contrair, Mon friar. It would have washed over in a few months and he would have been a bigger, more unstoppable hero.

hdhale: Millennium: So it really did come down to cowardice after all: they shielded a predator-shielding organization because football.

Six years would have been more appropriate: make damn sure that none of the current student body will play again unless they transfer out. Four would have been all right, though.

And every person in the USSR was guilty of deporting people to the Gulags. Makes sense.

The point is not to punish the current students, but to get the football players away from Penn State so that when it is allowed to rebuild, it must start from as close to zero as can practically be achieved: no experienced players, and a crop of incoming high schoolers who did not go through high school with Penn State as a big football school. Ideally I would also add in a provision requiring PSU to change its school colors and its mascot, so that it cannot even fall back on the old brand, but this may fall into the impractical range.

But in any case, the death penalty doesn't punish the students: built into the it is a provision such that students who transfer away can resume playing immediately (ordinarily they would have to wait a year). The current punishment has a similar provision, but without the total football ban there is not sufficient pressure on the players to go elsewhere, which is part of why it doesn't go far enough.

WalkingSnake: meow said the dog: Carousel Beast: If nothing else, at least the NCAA has taught the current players and administration that the people who did the actual crimes had better not do them again, or more people not involved will be punished!

Someone will now tell you that you do the supporting of child rape. They will repeat this ad nauseam.

Opinions on both sides have been repeated ad nauseam. Your comment has been repeated ad nauseam. Every thread related to this is like a re-run, with everyone presenting their opinions as if they've never been able to talk about them before.

So why the hell are you here?

/Boo-hoo, everything's bad therefore we should discuss nothing...
//I see a lot of people like you in the politics tab, but my first introduction was reading the book Dead Man Walking, in which a nun talked about how she got started visiting the inmates on Death Row: Originally, she and her entire convent were 'apolitical', until a visitor pointed out that 'apolitical' translates, in reality, to simply not changing anything that's wrong with the world--a highly political stance, usually on the side of the one doing the wrong.
///Just a thought.

vudukungfu: gimmegimme: If Paterno had raised hell starting at the moment he found out his buddy was a child rapist, everyone would have been furious with Paterno and his legacy would have been ruined.

Au contrair, Mon friar. It would have washed over in a few months and he would have been a bigger, more unstoppable hero.

I was being facetious, but not facetious enough, apparently.

Penn State gets to sign off on its' punishment because it knows that the punishment is better than the death penalty. Immediately spin begins by people saying "This is worse than the death penalty!" NCAA chief says that the culture at Penn State needs to change.

So let me get this straight: Penn State is so powerful that they actually get to influence their own punishment, the punishment that is meted out only serves to galvanize the idiotic zealots who overvalue Nittany Lion football, and NCAA sets a precedent for doing an end run around due process with never before seen speedy sanctions?

This was never about changing the culture at Penn State, it's insulting to pretend that it is. It was about showing the world that football programs are immortals now and the NCAA decides which immortals prosper and which do not. There is no meaningful punishment, only dinner theater meant to convince us otherwise.

and really how do you go from a 4 year death penalty to 4 years/40 scholarships and a fine? the ncaa might be the worst negotiators in the world. caught off for pennies on the dollar.

You know I think if I was on another team at PSU. I'd be super pissed. Those 40 scholarships aren't going to attract any football talent to a program that's neutered like that!

Basketball, Hockey, and Soccer anyone?!

There could have been an epic era for sports that aren't Football at PSU.

A Fark Handle: and really how do you go from a 4 year death penalty to 4 years/40 scholarships and a fine? the ncaa might be the worst negotiators in the world. caught off for pennies on the dollar.

Not so much bad negotiators as just plain too cowardly to make the hard decisions. The law needed to be laid down, and these worms failed to do that.

The NFL is better than amateur football anyway

Millennium: requiring PSU to change its school colors

Now THAT would be the ultimate punishment... make them change their colors back to black and pink! Death penalty shmeth penalty, that would break them.

/only being sort of sarcastic
//gawd they'd be some UGLY uniforms

Tabe: Protectyourlimbs

I think you need to read that again. Nowhere in there did it say anything about the penalties being fair or unfair. There are posts all over the internet where people want to "NUKE" the entire campus. What Inchoate was saying is that there is more to PSU than Football and Enablers. There is plenty of GOOD at PSU.

/Not a PSU Football Fan

I think you need to re read my post again, I said that I dont see all this hatred towards PSU, just that there is no sympathy for PSU supporters that say the football restrictions will hurt innocent people who had nothing to do with it. kind of like the idea of too big to fail.

The whole PSU should not be a school talk I dont hear so to put that out there and say PSU is a victim of hatred is far fetched IMO.

Playing the victim is not what PSU needs right now, they need to accept and understand why there is so much rage when all the media does is put out students and jopa family telling us how unjust taking away wins or a statue is yelling we are penn state.

PSU and its students need to release statements from people that publicly announce they know the difference between a game, and the seriousness of what led to covering up child rape to protect that game, instead of pointing out the game still means everything. That is where the hate towards PSU is coming from.