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(BGR)   Samsung: Apple wouldn't have sold a single iPhone without stealing our tech   (bgr.com) divider line 146
    More: Interesting, Apple Inc., Samsung, iPhone, Jonathan Ive  
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3819 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Jul 2012 at 1:14 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



146 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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Archived thread
 
2012-07-25 11:33:36 AM
Apple would have sold millions if all an iPhone was was a Zack Morris brick phone with the Apple logo drawn on in Steve Jobs' feces
 
2012-07-25 11:49:14 AM
Apple wouldn't even exist any more if they didn't steal other people's tech. Starting with Xerox.
 
2012-07-25 11:53:20 AM
I really don't like Apple products, and I don't rightly give a crap who stole what from who.
 
2012-07-25 11:53:44 AM
You must do things the Apple way and only the Apple way. I'm in Vietnam now. My Viet friend encouraged me to get a used 3GS in America for $150 and he will sell it $200 at the end of the trip. Fine. But I still can't get my damn music from the USB memory stick to the phone. It's all in the iCloud. Sure it is. So how come it isn't? It was on the phone before i came here and had to reset the phone to make local calls

I was planning to replace my Palm Pre with the i5phone in November, but I think I will follow the advice given to me to get an Android instead.
 
2012-07-25 12:07:00 PM
Microsoft would not exist if Bill Gates hadn't stolen his OS from Xerox so, so what?
 
2012-07-25 12:08:36 PM

Jake Havechek: Microsoft would not exist if Bill Gates hadn't stolen his OS from Xerox

purchased his operating system from Seattle Computer Products.

FTFY.
 
2012-07-25 12:58:47 PM
Both sides are bad, so vote (Apple, Google, Microsoft, Samsung, Motorola...∞)
 
2012-07-25 01:17:20 PM

dalmo: Jake Havechek: Microsoft would not exist if Bill Gates hadn't stolen his OS from Xerox purchased his operating system from Seattle Computer Products.

FTFY.


THIS
 
2012-07-25 01:21:36 PM
The Kinks had great songs and musical genius. They were really good. Go on a YouTube crawl if you don't believe me. You could argue that many of their songs are as good as or even better than most of the songs offered by the Beatles.

But the Kinks didn't have anyone who could write a hook and sell a record like the Beatles had. Today, the Beatles are still the benchmark, the one everyone says is "the Next" or "Bigger Than". Even though modern artists are selling more records to today's audience than the Beatles sold to their 1964 market pretty much daily, the Beatles are still the ones to beat. They're the ones hipper-than-thou people claim sucked and stole all their ideas, whereas no one ever even thinks of badmouthing the Dave Clark Five. Paul McCartney can't sneeze without there being a Fark thread about it; I don't think I've ever seen a Kinks thread.

Because it doesn't matter how good your idea is, how good your tech is, if you can't put it in a box that people will get stars in their eyes for, you can't sell it. You just won't. Apple figured out how to sell those phones. Inferior tech or superior, inferior interface or superior, Apple managed to get that same kind of hook, that same kind of marketing mojo that Lennon and McCartney had.

Samsung was making the best phones they knew how to make, Apple was just better at figuring out what would sell.
 
2012-07-25 01:30:41 PM
ENOUGH ALREADY...
 
2012-07-25 01:35:50 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Apple wouldn't even exist any more if they didn't steal other people's tech. Starting with Xerox.


THIS. Why doesn't someone write up a amicus curiae brief specifically saying that?!

Apple should never EVER EVER bring this argument up unless they want someone to specifically respond in that fashion.
 
2012-07-25 01:37:38 PM

Lando Lincoln: I really don't like Apple products, and I don't rightly give a crap who stole what from who.


I barely skimmed the article, but I don't think Samsung really cares either. I believe Samsung is just countersuing and defending themselves against Apple suing them over making things rectangular.

Samsung really should avoid stealing Apples designs and innovate a little
edge.alluremedia.com.au
 
2012-07-25 01:38:21 PM
en.nkfu.com

Frowns on your shenanigans.
 
2012-07-25 01:42:03 PM
Has Apple tried patenting a portable electronic device capable of making phone calls yet?
 
2012-07-25 01:43:16 PM
Marcus Aurelius
Apple wouldn't even exist any more if they didn't steal other people's tech. Starting with Xerox.

Ah,the Xerox myth. Xerox, at the time, was contractually obligated to show Apple all its projects. They tried to hide the mouse from Apple, but Apple sniffed it out and demanded to see it. After that, Apple developed a mouse that was far cheaper and more functional the the Xerox, which couldn't even drag diagonally.
 
2012-07-25 01:44:41 PM
I just got a galaxy s2x and i love it! Recommend any good apps?
 
2012-07-25 01:46:21 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Apple wouldn't even exist any more if they didn't steal other people's tech. Starting with Xerox.


Myth:
Apple CEO Steve Jobs saw Xerox PARC product such as the GUI, either on a tour or at a trade show, then stole the PARC GUI implementation without permission, to create the Apple Lisa and the original Mac OS / Macintosh GUI.

Fact:
Apple obtained permission ahead of the Xerox PARC visit. In addition, Apple provided compensation in exchange for the various Xerox PARC ideas such as the GUI.

The compensation for the Xerox PARC technology sharing deal with Apple was in form of $1 million dollars pre-IPO Apple stock / investment (if Apple does well, Xerox will benefit from Apple's success).

The PARC demo took place in 1979. Xerox received its compensation in exchange for showing some prototypes that Xerox didn't know what to do with.

"November: Steve Jobs and software engineer Bill Atkinson visit the Xerox PARC lab in Palo Alto, California. More Apple employees will visit a month later."

"Jobs and several Apple employees including Jef Raskin visited Xerox PARC in December 1979 to see the Xerox Alto. Xerox granted Apple engineers three days of access to the PARC facilities in return for the option to buy 100,000 shares of Apple at the pre-IPO price of $10 a share."
 
2012-07-25 01:46:39 PM

machoprogrammer: Has Apple tried patenting a portable electronic device capable of making phone calls yet?


*snerk* :-D
 
2012-07-25 01:46:51 PM

Dear Jerk: Marcus Aurelius
Apple wouldn't even exist any more if they didn't steal other people's tech. Starting with Xerox.

Ah,the Xerox myth. Xerox, at the time, was contractually obligated to show Apple all its projects. They tried to hide the mouse from Apple, but Apple sniffed it out and demanded to see it. After that, Apple developed a mouse that was far cheaper and more functional the the Xerox, which couldn't even drag diagonally.


So, what you're saying is Apple got the whole idea from Xerox. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
2012-07-25 01:49:44 PM

unlikely: Samsung was making the best phones they knew how to make, Apple was just better at figuring out what would sell.


My opinion as well. You can fault Apple for a lot, but you can't deny the fact that they made a product for the consumer. One that "just works". I mean that's where the freakin cliche came from. They changed the game. I say this as someone who owns not a single Apple product. In fact I'm fully Microsoft. PC, Xbox, Windows Phone. But you better believe there would NOT be a windows phone if there was no iPhone. It's quality, pure and simple.
 
2012-07-25 01:50:32 PM

NutznGum: Dear Jerk: Marcus Aurelius
Apple wouldn't even exist any more if they didn't steal other people's tech. Starting with Xerox.

Ah,the Xerox myth. Xerox, at the time, was contractually obligated to show Apple all its projects. They tried to hide the mouse from Apple, but Apple sniffed it out and demanded to see it. After that, Apple developed a mouse that was far cheaper and more functional the the Xerox, which couldn't even drag diagonally.

So, what you're saying is Apple got the whole idea from Xerox. Thanks for clearing that up.


The OP said "steal" not "got." Since Apple legally acquired the tech from Xerox through contractual obligations and greements, it wasn't "stealing" anything.
 
2012-07-25 01:52:40 PM

Kevin72: I'm in Vietnam now. My Viet friend encouraged me to get a


What the? You're on the internet and have a smartphone? Turn that shiat off! You'll give away your position!
 
2012-07-25 01:55:31 PM
I have already stated my feelings on apple products today:) BUT.... my iphone is the worst phone i owned.. sold it and got a galaxy s2.. AWESOME... and lovin android...
 
2012-07-25 01:58:56 PM
how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?

At least Windows is it's own OS, OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD
 
2012-07-25 02:02:00 PM
Is it just me, or is the author of this article a farker. Every time he writes something it, immediately gets posted here. And it's always about apple.
 
2012-07-25 02:05:51 PM
Oh wait, Samsung is serious! Let me laugh even harder!!!
 
2012-07-25 02:06:30 PM

NutznGum: So, what you're saying is Apple got the whole idea from Xerox. Thanks for clearing that up.


It's pretty obvious you have no idea how the Xerox Alto worked. File management, starting programs, and printing documents for instance, were all handled from a command prompt.

Why don't you take a look at the Alto User's Handbook? (Warning - PDF file)
 
2012-07-25 02:07:56 PM

zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?

At least Windows is it's own OS, OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD


This.

It's a large part of why I respect the FOSS community and Microsoft a lot more than Apple. If Apple had to actually develop and maintain an OS from scratch (like NT), believe you me, OS X upgrades would not be $20. Furthermore, OS X exists because it has to (the computer Apple sells needs to run somehow), not as a means to push the envelope with customization and innovation, like Linux.

When Apple actually developed their own operating systems from scratch, we got crap. Some might think OS X is a better OS than Windows or Linux, but when you say that, realize it's not Apple that made the fundamentals.

That being said, these patent wars are ridiculous, and I hope Apple tries to pull this crap on Microsoft when the Surface is released. The reaction might be the only thing that gets them to knock off all of this damned litigation.
 
2012-07-25 02:11:21 PM

zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?


Not giving anything back... now I'll grant you points for at least trying something new and moving beyond the whole Xerox PARC thing however I must also take substantial points away.

CUPS, Common Unix Print System. aka OS X's print spool.
WebKit (formerly KHTML) aka Safari's rendering engine.
XQuartz, forms X11.app and is based off of the xorg code tree with commits heading upstream.

That's just off the top of my head and at least one (xorg) is part of any modern *NIX system... all have substantial commits from developers paid for by Apple.

Yeah... your X11 layer has Apple in it enjoy.
 
2012-07-25 02:12:04 PM

BullBearMS: NutznGum: So, what you're saying is Apple got the whole idea from Xerox. Thanks for clearing that up.

It's pretty obvious you have no idea how the Xerox Alto worked. File management, starting programs, and printing documents for instance, were all handled from a command prompt.

Why don't you take a look at the Alto User's Handbook? (Warning - PDF file)


I don't know or care how Xerox Alto worked. Apple, like every other tech company has borrowed heavily from partners and competitors over the years. Even Steve Jobs said they 'were shameless about stealing great ideas.' Unfortunately, they're not shameless in their petulance when someone does it to them.
 
2012-07-25 02:13:28 PM

Marine1:
This.


Behave. You know better and you're only encouraging him.
 
2012-07-25 02:15:44 PM
Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
 
2012-07-25 02:18:32 PM
Actually, if people want to go off and rage at a company for not giving back to FOSS projects. Might I suggest you set your sights on Transgaming who did actually run off with the source code to WINE, released their own commercial version and then stuck two fingers and a "fark you" up when people asked them to pay back the non-propriety changes forward.

That incident is the single reason WINE had to change its license. It's the reason I will never, EVER, buy an EA game that's been 'ported' to OS X, it runs in Cider... Transgaming's stolen versions of Wine & X11.
 
2012-07-25 02:20:58 PM

Marine1: zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?

At least Windows is it's own OS, OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD

This.

It's a large part of why I respect the FOSS community and Microsoft a lot more than Apple. If Apple had to actually develop and maintain an OS from scratch (like NT), believe you me, OS X upgrades would not be $20.


Are you joking? I'm serious, are you?
 
2012-07-25 02:21:46 PM

NutznGum: BullBearMS: NutznGum: So, what you're saying is Apple got the whole idea from Xerox. Thanks for clearing that up.

It's pretty obvious you have no idea how the Xerox Alto worked. File management, starting programs, and printing documents for instance, were all handled from a command prompt.

Why don't you take a look at the Alto User's Handbook? (Warning - PDF file)

I don't know or care how Xerox Alto worked.


Well, I'm sure everyone is just thrilled that you're so opinionated about something you have no knowledge of.

Perhaps you should run for political office. You'll fit right in.
 
2012-07-25 02:21:58 PM

Vaneshi: Marine1:
This.

Behave. You know better and you're only encouraging him.


He does have a valid point. Apple gets respected for things they shouldn't. As a computer researcher, it's irritating.
 
2012-07-25 02:22:09 PM
Apple sues someone for patents: BOO HISS THE MOST EVIL COMPANY
Someone sues Apple for patents: WHAT A LEGITIMATE AND RIGHTEOUS CLAIM AGAINST AN EVIL COMPANY

I'm riding the lollercoaster over here.
 
2012-07-25 02:22:38 PM

sure haven't: unlikely: Samsung was making the best phones they knew how to make, Apple was just better at figuring out what would sell.

My opinion as well. You can fault Apple for a lot, but you can't deny the fact that they made a product for the consumer. One that "just works". I mean that's where the freakin cliche came from. They changed the game. I say this as someone who owns not a single Apple product. In fact I'm fully Microsoft. PC, Xbox, Windows Phone. But you better believe there would NOT be a windows phone if there was no iPhone. It's quality, pure and simple.


Really? There were windows phones as early as 2003.
 
2012-07-25 02:26:39 PM

NutznGum: BullBearMS: NutznGum: So, what you're saying is Apple got the whole idea from Xerox. Thanks for clearing that up.

It's pretty obvious you have no idea how the Xerox Alto worked. File management, starting programs, and printing documents for instance, were all handled from a command prompt.

Why don't you take a look at the Alto User's Handbook? (Warning - PDF file)

I don't know or care how Xerox Alto worked. Apple, like every other tech company has borrowed heavily from partners and competitors over the years. Even Steve Jobs said they 'were shameless about stealing great ideas.' Unfortunately, they're not shameless in their petulance when someone does it to them.


You don't know or care. Got it. That's why you don't understand Jobs' comment when he said that. I encourage you to go find out about Xerox Alto how it worked, the history behind it and the visits to PARC by Apple. I encourage you to learn about what Apple's team added to that GUI concept before they brought it to market. I encourage you to contemplate Jobs' later comment that "real artists ship" and why he said it. It will truly be enlightening, I promise.
 
2012-07-25 02:27:18 PM

Marine1: Vaneshi: Marine1:
This.

Behave. You know better and you're only encouraging him.

He does have a valid point. Apple gets respected for things they shouldn't. As a computer researcher, it's irritating.


Dunno, I can respect them for providing commits back to the projects they use, they aren't all "We support FOSS" about it but they do comply with the terms of the licenses and then some. His point was that they weren't doing so. Much like IBM and Samba really.

I think everyone in this bullshiat patent malarky needs a damn good slap though.
 
2012-07-25 02:28:28 PM

Marine1: OS X upgrades would not be $20


OSX upgrades are not 20 dollars.

For 20 dollars, you are allowed to upgrade every Mac you personally own, plus use two instances of the OS in a virtual machine on each machine for that flat 20 dollar fee.

This isn't a limited time offer. This is how much OSX costs every day.

If your household has several PC's and you attempted to pay Microsoft for the equivalent rights, you would be able to buy a nice laptop like a Macbook Air with the price difference.
 
2012-07-25 02:29:52 PM

bingethinker: Oh wait, Samsung is serious! Let me laugh even harder!!!


Well, in a way, they're right... in that they've got a patent on a communication standard used by all the cell providers, and Apple wouldn't have sold any phones without using that standard.

But here's the problem... Samsung is treading on very dangerous ground here, since they're obligated under FRAND to allow Apple to purchase a license at a reasonable rate, which Apple claims* they tried to do. If* that's true and Samsung was trying to charge Apple more because of Apple's other lawsuits against Samsung, then Samsung may have been misusing the patent...
... which not only gets the DoJ's antitrust hackles up, it also makes their patent legally unenforceable.
In other words, if this doesn't turn out well, it's not just that Samsung loses this case, but that they lose every case related to the patent.

*which may or may not be true
 
2012-07-25 02:33:07 PM

Vaneshi: CUPS, Common Unix Print System. aka OS X's print spool.
WebKit (formerly KHTML) aka Safari's rendering engine.
XQuartz, forms X11.app and is based off of the xorg code tree with commits heading upstream.


Apple bought CUPS

Webkit is from KDE

XQuartz no longer supports X11 apps
 
2012-07-25 02:34:34 PM

theurge14: Marine1: zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?

At least Windows is it's own OS, OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD

This.

It's a large part of why I respect the FOSS community and Microsoft a lot more than Apple. If Apple had to actually develop and maintain an OS from scratch (like NT), believe you me, OS X upgrades would not be $20.

Are you joking? I'm serious, are you?


I'm not joking.

Let's look at what all gets upgraded when Microsoft releases a new desktop client version of Windows (forget Server):

The NT kernel
.NET Framework and its constituents (CLR languages, XAML, Windows Forms, etc.)
DirectX
Windows Explorer/UI
Security features
Driver models
Windows PowerShell
SUA/Interix (up until Windows 8)
Internet Explorer
Windows Media Player

... and so on. Most of that stuff is provided gratis and is based almost exclusively on Microsoft's own technology. The merits of that technology can be debated (some of it is problematic; some of it is good), but it's Microsoft's and they develop it.

Apple doesn't have to invest nearly as much into their platform as most of it was developed out of house. Linux is supported by donations of time and money.
 
2012-07-25 02:36:41 PM

Theaetetus: But here's the problem... Samsung is treading on very dangerous ground here, since they're obligated under FRAND to allow Apple to purchase a license at a reasonable rate, which Apple claims* they tried to do. If* that's true and Samsung was trying to charge Apple more because of Apple's other lawsuits against Samsung, then Samsung may have been misusing the patent...
... which not only gets the DoJ's antitrust hackles up, it also makes their patent legally unenforceable.
In other words, if this doesn't turn out well, it's not just that Samsung loses this case, but that they lose every case related to the patent.


You skipped the part were most other companies in the cellular arena cross license patents instead of paying a cash value, making their FRAND patents worth what ever they think they are. Apple, only having a few WIFI patents, had nothing to leverage and thus has to pay "market price" for the FRAND patents. Nokia, Samsung, etc.... can argue the value of their patents is worth what ever their co-licenses value their own patents at. So if Nokia says their FRAND patents are worth 2 billion a year and than cross-license to Samsung for say 100 million a year, than Samsung could argue their patents are worth 1.9 billion a year. (numbers inflated to simplify things)
 
2012-07-25 02:38:49 PM

zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?


You mean aside from Apple releasing the code for Darwin, their fork of BSD? Or Zeroconfig? Or Bonjour? Or CUPS? Or Webkit? Or Grand Central Dispatch? Or all those other open source projects they do not run, but contribute code to?

Aside from those?
 
2012-07-25 02:40:53 PM

zedster: Webkit is from KDE


Webkit is a fork of their code.

They have abandoned their own version and converted over to Webkit themselves, which should tell you something.
 
2012-07-25 02:41:27 PM

Marine1: theurge14: Marine1: zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?

At least Windows is it's own OS, OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD

This.

It's a large part of why I respect the FOSS community and Microsoft a lot more than Apple. If Apple had to actually develop and maintain an OS from scratch (like NT), believe you me, OS X upgrades would not be $20.

Are you joking? I'm serious, are you?

I'm not joking.


So you believe Microsoft built NT from scratch? So IBM and OS/2 mean nothing to you?

Let's look at what all gets upgraded when Microsoft releases a new desktop client version of Windows (forget Server):

I'm not referring to this, Windows and Mac OS X are released on completely different upgrade paths.

Apple doesn't have to invest nearly as much into their platform as most of it was developed out of house. Linux is supported by donations of time and money.

It appears you don't know about OS X as much as you think you do.
 
2012-07-25 02:41:51 PM

zedster: Theaetetus: But here's the problem... Samsung is treading on very dangerous ground here, since they're obligated under FRAND to allow Apple to purchase a license at a reasonable rate, which Apple claims* they tried to do. If* that's true and Samsung was trying to charge Apple more because of Apple's other lawsuits against Samsung, then Samsung may have been misusing the patent...
... which not only gets the DoJ's antitrust hackles up, it also makes their patent legally unenforceable.
In other words, if this doesn't turn out well, it's not just that Samsung loses this case, but that they lose every case related to the patent.

You skipped the part were most other companies in the cellular arena cross license patents instead of paying a cash value, making their FRAND patents worth what ever they think they are. Apple, only having a few WIFI patents, had nothing to leverage and thus has to pay "market price" for the FRAND patents. Nokia, Samsung, etc.... can argue the value of their patents is worth what ever their co-licenses value their own patents at. So if Nokia says their FRAND patents are worth 2 billion a year and than cross-license to Samsung for say 100 million a year, than Samsung could argue their patents are worth 1.9 billion a year. (numbers inflated to simplify things)


DoJ already thought of that loophole. If you only cross-license among your patent pool, then fair and reasonable license fees to third parties not in the pool may be determined by independent market experts... not the pool members' questionable internal accounting. It's one of the examples in the 1995 Antitrust Guidelines, even.
 
2012-07-25 02:47:09 PM

theurge14: So you believe Microsoft built NT from scratch?


Apparently Hiring Dave Cutler from DEC to lead their next gen OS project and then having NT look suspiciously like VMS in so many ways doesn't count.
 
2012-07-25 02:49:57 PM

zedster: Vaneshi: CUPS, Common Unix Print System. aka OS X's print spool.
WebKit (formerly KHTML) aka Safari's rendering engine.
XQuartz, forms X11.app and is based off of the xorg code tree with commits heading upstream.

Apple bought CUPS

Webkit is from KDE

XQuartz no longer supports X11 apps


CUPS is part of every Linux distro, it's FOSS with Apple providing large commits.

WebKit actually works and works well, unlike KHTML which as anyone (including me) who used those versions of Konqurer will tell you was a bit of a dogs dinner.

The X11 layer no longer runs X11 applications... I don't believe you and will thus go and fact check. Hmm...

"The XQuartz project is an open-source effort to develop a version of the X.Org X Window System that runs on OS X. Together with supporting libraries and applications, it forms the X11.app that Apple has shipped with OS X since version 10.5." Current version support 10.8 (i.e. the one released today).

Nope still runs X11 applications. You're thinking of QuartzExtreme which is something quite different.
 
2012-07-25 02:50:50 PM

BullBearMS: NutznGum: BullBearMS: NutznGum: So, what you're saying is Apple got the whole idea from Xerox. Thanks for clearing that up.

It's pretty obvious you have no idea how the Xerox Alto worked. File management, starting programs, and printing documents for instance, were all handled from a command prompt.

Why don't you take a look at the Alto User's Handbook? (Warning - PDF file)

I don't know or care how Xerox Alto worked.

Well, I'm sure everyone is just thrilled that you're so opinionated about something you have no knowledge of.

Perhaps you should run for political office. You'll fit right in.


You edited out the rest of my post and cherry picked the sentence that fits with your assertion. If I do run for office, you can be my campaign manager, you'll fit right in.
 
2012-07-25 02:52:09 PM
So... just to make sure I'm understanding you guys:

Apple sues Samsung for theft of tech: Apple is a patent troll
Samsung sues Apple for theft of tech: Apple is a tech thief.
 
2012-07-25 02:56:30 PM

theurge14: Marine1: theurge14: Marine1: zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?

At least Windows is it's own OS, OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD

This.

It's a large part of why I respect the FOSS community and Microsoft a lot more than Apple. If Apple had to actually develop and maintain an OS from scratch (like NT), believe you me, OS X upgrades would not be $20.

Are you joking? I'm serious, are you?

I'm not joking.

So you believe Microsoft built NT from scratch? So IBM and OS/2 mean nothing to you?

Let's look at what all gets upgraded when Microsoft releases a new desktop client version of Windows (forget Server):

I'm not referring to this, Windows and Mac OS X are released on completely different upgrade paths.

Apple doesn't have to invest nearly as much into their platform as most of it was developed out of house. Linux is supported by donations of time and money.

It appears you don't know about OS X as much as you think you do.


Oh, I know about OS/2. My dad's friend works at IBM and is still pretty bitter about the whole thing... almost 20 years later. However, Microsoft still did the lion's share of development on the kernel that became Windows NT instead of OS/2's upgrade. If they hadn't, it's probable that they wouldn't have been able to switch the APIs from OS/2 to Windows.

If they're on separate upgrade paths, then the whining about Windows' price and comparisons to the price of OS X upgrades need to stop as well. Maybe we're arguing the same point from different sides here.

I know plenty about OS X's development and how Apple came across it... it's a working operating system that was a revelation compared to the stream of MacOS products that came before it. But let's please stop pretending that Apple's engineering efforts in regards to OS X are the same that Microsoft's are in regards to Windows. They're not.
 
2012-07-25 03:01:27 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: OS X upgrades would not be $20

OSX upgrades are not 20 dollars.

For 20 dollars, you are allowed to upgrade every Mac you personally own, plus use two instances of the OS in a virtual machine on each machine for that flat 20 dollar fee.

This isn't a limited time offer. This is how much OSX costs every day.

If your household has several PC's and you attempted to pay Microsoft for the equivalent rights, you would be able to buy a nice laptop like a Macbook Air with the price difference.




B-bu-but Apple Tax!

/Apple Jacks
 
2012-07-25 03:03:06 PM

Theaetetus: zedster: Theaetetus: But here's the problem... Samsung is treading on very dangerous ground here, since they're obligated under FRAND to allow Apple to purchase a license at a reasonable rate, which Apple claims* they tried to do. If* that's true and Samsung was trying to charge Apple more because of Apple's other lawsuits against Samsung, then Samsung may have been misusing the patent...
... which not only gets the DoJ's antitrust hackles up, it also makes their patent legally unenforceable.
In other words, if this doesn't turn out well, it's not just that Samsung loses this case, but that they lose every case related to the patent.

You skipped the part were most other companies in the cellular arena cross license patents instead of paying a cash value, making their FRAND patents worth what ever they think they are. Apple, only having a few WIFI patents, had nothing to leverage and thus has to pay "market price" for the FRAND patents. Nokia, Samsung, etc.... can argue the value of their patents is worth what ever their co-licenses value their own patents at. So if Nokia says their FRAND patents are worth 2 billion a year and than cross-license to Samsung for say 100 million a year, than Samsung could argue their patents are worth 1.9 billion a year. (numbers inflated to simplify things)

DoJ already thought of that loophole. If you only cross-license among your patent pool, then fair and reasonable license fees to third parties not in the pool may be determined by independent market experts... not the pool members' questionable internal accounting. It's one of the examples in the 1995 Antitrust Guidelines, even.


""Samsung's royalty demands are multiple times more than Apple has paid any other patentees for licenses to their declared-essential patent portfolios," Apple said in the documents.

However, Samsung said in a separate filing on Wednesday that its offer "is consistent with the royalty rates other companies charge" and that Apple never made a counter offer.

"Instead, it simply rejected Samsung's opening offer, refused to negotiate further and to this day has not paid Samsung a dime for Apple's use of Samsung's standards-essential technology," Samsung said."

Sounds like they just didn't like the price and decided they didn't have to pay.

Do we know what patents were violated to cause HTC to have to pay Microsoft a few dollars every phone?
 
2012-07-25 03:04:32 PM

schattenteufel: So... just to make sure I'm understanding you guys:

Apple sues Samsung for theft of tech: Apple is a patent troll
Samsung sues Apple for theft of tech: Apple is a tech thief.


No, they're hypocrites and shouldn't have started any of this shiat.
 
2012-07-25 03:07:30 PM

schattenteufel: So... just to make sure I'm understanding you guys:

Apple sues Samsung for theft of tech: Apple is a patent troll
Samsung sues Apple for theft of tech: Apple is a tech thief.


The facts are actually more interesting.

Apple doesn't make the chip that handles the phone functions of it's phone. Qualcomm (now owned by Intel) makes those.

Qualcomm has licensed and paid for the use of Samsung's patents already, and this license covers Qualcomm's customers.

So basically, Samsung is trying to use patents they have already been paid for as a weapon after they got caught violating Apple's patents.

There is a legal concept called patent exhaustion which does not allow a company that has already been paid a patent fee once for a product that is made to try to get paid again, but this is still working it's way through the various nation's court systems.
 
2012-07-25 03:13:31 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: OS X upgrades would not be $20

OSX upgrades are not 20 dollars.

For 20 dollars, you are allowed to upgrade every Mac you personally own, plus use two instances of the OS in a virtual machine on each machine for that flat 20 dollar fee.

This isn't a limited time offer. This is how much OSX costs every day.

If your household has several PC's and you attempted to pay Microsoft for the equivalent rights, you would be able to buy a nice laptop like a Macbook Air with the price difference.


They're making it an Mac App Store-only deal with... what's the one they're releasing today?... Mountain Lion. Looking at Apple's website, I don't see a boxed release, either. Does this mean you have to do it per computer or do you only download it once and then stick it on every machine?

And in order to reach the price of a MacBook Air with Windows 7 Home Premium upgrades, you'd have to upgrade somewhere around 20 computers.
 
2012-07-25 03:13:33 PM

BullBearMS: schattenteufel: So... just to make sure I'm understanding you guys:

Apple sues Samsung for theft of tech: Apple is a patent troll
Samsung sues Apple for theft of tech: Apple is a tech thief.

The facts are actually more interesting.

Apple doesn't make the chip that handles the phone functions of it's phone. Qualcomm (now owned by Intel) makes those.

Qualcomm has licensed and paid for the use of Samsung's patents already, and this license covers Qualcomm's customers.

So basically, Samsung is trying to use patents they have already been paid for as a weapon after they got caught violating Apple's patents.

There is a legal concept called patent exhaustion which does not allow a company that has already been paid a patent fee once for a product that is made to try to get paid again, but this is still working it's way through the various nation's court systems.


As I understand it, once Apple violated the no-sue terms of the old arrangement, the old arrangement went out the window.
 
2012-07-25 03:14:34 PM

Marine1: theurge14: Marine1: theurge14: Marine1: zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?

At least Windows is it's own OS, OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD

This.

It's a large part of why I respect the FOSS community and Microsoft a lot more than Apple. If Apple had to actually develop and maintain an OS from scratch (like NT), believe you me, OS X upgrades would not be $20.

Are you joking? I'm serious, are you?

I'm not joking.

So you believe Microsoft built NT from scratch? So IBM and OS/2 mean nothing to you?

Let's look at what all gets upgraded when Microsoft releases a new desktop client version of Windows (forget Server):

I'm not referring to this, Windows and Mac OS X are released on completely different upgrade paths.

Apple doesn't have to invest nearly as much into their platform as most of it was developed out of house. Linux is supported by donations of time and money.

It appears you don't know about OS X as much as you think you do.

Oh, I know about OS/2. My dad's friend works at IBM and is still pretty bitter about the whole thing... almost 20 years later. However, Microsoft still did the lion's share of development on the kernel that became Windows NT instead of OS/2's upgrade. If they hadn't, it's probable that they wouldn't have been able to switch the APIs from OS/2 to Windows.


If by lion's share of development you mean they secretly worked on something they called "NT OS/2" in parallel as they developed for OS/2, then sure.

Yes they put in work after they hired many from Digital's VMS team over to work on the new Mach-like kernel and the HAL, but this is hardly "from scratch". This is similar to what Apple did with the NeXT team with XNU and Darwin.

If they're on separate upgrade paths, then the whining about Windows' price and comparisons to the price of OS X upgrades need to stop as well. Maybe we're arguing the same point from different sides here.

I'm fine with that.

I know plenty about OS X's development and how Apple came across it... it's a working operating system that was a revelation compared to the stream of MacOS products that came before it. But let's please stop pretending that Apple's engineering efforts in regards to OS X are the same that Microsoft's are in regards to Windows. They're not.

Completely disagree. An incredible amount of work has been put into the OS since 2001. Despite what some believe, OS X did not come about by someone downloading FreeBSD and sticking an Aqua theme on KDE and shipping it. WebKit is not simple a rebranded KHTML and the GUI that the original Mac had did not get built by someone from Apple going over to PARC and copying a bunch of files to a floppy and walking back to Cupertino.
 
2012-07-25 03:19:07 PM

theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]


You conveniently left this one off your "before" list:

www.yourmobilephone.co.uk
 
2012-07-25 03:22:42 PM

The Singing Bush: theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]

You conveniently left this one off your "before" list:

[www.yourmobilephone.co.uk image 352x317]


Didn't conveniently leave it out.

"The first iPhone was unveiled by Steve Jobs, then CEO of Apple, on January 9, 2007,[1] and released on June 29, 2007"

"Using Vodafone as its network provider, the phone was first introduced at the 3GSM World Congress that was held in February 2007. Sales to the European market started November 2007."
 
2012-07-25 03:27:26 PM

theurge14: The Singing Bush: theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]

You conveniently left this one off your "before" list:

[www.yourmobilephone.co.uk image 352x317]

Didn't conveniently leave it out.

"The first iPhone was unveiled by Steve Jobs, then CEO of Apple, on January 9, 2007,[1] and released on June 29, 2007"

"Using Vodafone as its network provider, the phone was first introduced at the 3GSM World Congress that was held in February 2007. Sales to the European market started November 2007."


So you're saying Samsung built a new product in a month?
 
2012-07-25 03:28:28 PM
theflatline:
Really? There were windows phones as early as 2003.

And those early windows phones did everything the first iPhones did plus more (Exchange & VPN are the biggies).



theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:
...
Samsung phones since the iPhone:

...


I notice a few phones missing there. The Rugby? Charge? There are plenty others from Samsung that are flip or have keyboards.

Samsung isn't the only one that is going with the large square screen. Everybody is going that way because that's what the consumer wants. We didn't have the selection of large screen phones before because of battery life. I have a phone sitting on my desk from '06 (xv6700) that is a large screen for its time. The battery was horrible in it. Since that phone came out in '06 and the iPhone came out in '07, does that mean Apple was copying the design from it? All they did was take away physical buttons and made them virtual. The physical shape was similar.

If Apple didn't come out with the iPhone, the only difference would be that Android wouldn't be as big and the smart phone market would be controlled by RIM and Microsoft. We would still have the slim, large screen phones.


My problem with all of this is the patent system and the trolls the abuse the system.
 
2012-07-25 03:31:14 PM

robhidalgo: B-bu-but Apple Tax!


Yea... Now that companies are starting to make machines with roughly equivalent specs and build quality, it turns out that their laptops are in the same price range with Apple.

For instance, Dell's shiny new XPS 15 has roughly the same specs, build quality and price as a Macbook Pro. ASUS' new Zenbook Prime is roughly equivalent to a Macbook Air in specs, build quality, and price.

The same sort of pricing holds for Apple's "Office" type apps. You pay once and get to install the apps on every computer in your household.

The price gouging here, comes from Microsoft's rape, rape, rapity, rape fees for Office and the OS. It's not only more expensive to start with, but you have to pay for every computer in your household.

If you and your family members each have your own PC's, your family doesn't have to be very big before you can get a new computer with the price difference between Apple and Microsoft's upgrade fees alone.
 
2012-07-25 03:35:20 PM

Dear Jerk: Marcus Aurelius
Apple wouldn't even exist any more if they didn't steal other people's tech. Starting with Xerox.

Ah,the Xerox myth. Xerox, at the time, was contractually obligated to show Apple all its projects. They tried to hide the mouse from Apple, but Apple sniffed it out and demanded to see it. After that, Apple developed a mouse that was far cheaper and more functional the the Xerox, which couldn't even drag diagonally.


I'mma gona neet a big, fat steaming cite for that because that's not at all the story I heard from folks who were at PARC at the time
 
2012-07-25 03:35:27 PM

Marine1: They're making it an Mac App Store-only deal with... what's the one they're releasing today?... Mountain Lion. Looking at Apple's website, I don't see a boxed release, either. Does this mean you have to do it per computer or do you only download it once and then stick it on every machine?

And in order to reach the price of a MacBook Air with Windows 7 Home Premium upgrades, you'd have to upgrade somewhere around 20 computers.


Are you pretending Microsoft's limited time offer price is the real price? Why yes you are.

Sorry, having a product that is sold over the course of years have a sale price for a couple of weeks, does not the real price make.

And yes, you pay for OSX once stick it on every machine. You can make a USB key installer just as you can with Windows.

The same holds true with Apple's "Office" type apps. Pay once. Install on every machine in your household.
 
2012-07-25 03:38:16 PM

change1211: theurge14: The Singing Bush: theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]

You conveniently left this one off your "before" list:

[www.yourmobilephone.co.uk image 352x317]

Didn't conveniently leave it out.

"The first iPhone was unveiled by Steve Jobs, then CEO of Apple, on January 9, 2007,[1] and released on June 29, 2007"

"Using Vodafone as its network provider, the phone was first introduced at the 3GSM World Congress that was held in February 2007. Sales to the European market started November 2007."

So you're saying Samsung built a new product in a month?


And the F700 had leaked the previous year, before Apple announced the iPhone. The design was public knowledge.
 
2012-07-25 03:38:24 PM

change1211: theurge14: The Singing Bush: theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]

You conveniently left this one off your "before" list:

[www.yourmobilephone.co.uk image 352x317]

Didn't conveniently leave it out.

"The first iPhone was unveiled by Steve Jobs, then CEO of Apple, on January 9, 2007,[1] and released on June 29, 2007"

"Using Vodafone as its network provider, the phone was first introduced at the 3GSM World Congress that was held in February 2007. Sales to the European market started November 2007."

So you're saying Samsung built a new product in a month?


Maybe they just rounded the edges and added icons after seeing the iPhone
 
2012-07-25 03:38:25 PM

emocomputerjock: BullBearMS: schattenteufel: So... just to make sure I'm understanding you guys:

Apple sues Samsung for theft of tech: Apple is a patent troll
Samsung sues Apple for theft of tech: Apple is a tech thief.

The facts are actually more interesting.

Apple doesn't make the chip that handles the phone functions of it's phone. Qualcomm (now owned by Intel) makes those.

Qualcomm has licensed and paid for the use of Samsung's patents already, and this license covers Qualcomm's customers.

So basically, Samsung is trying to use patents they have already been paid for as a weapon after they got caught violating Apple's patents.

There is a legal concept called patent exhaustion which does not allow a company that has already been paid a patent fee once for a product that is made to try to get paid again, but this is still working it's way through the various nation's court systems.

As I understand it, once Apple violated the no-sue terms of the old arrangement, the old arrangement went out the window.


Not entirely sure about the other details mentioned, but exhaustion is a legal doctrine, not an agreement. If Samsung's patent rights were exhausted, they can't sue over them regardless of any breach of other contracts.
 
2012-07-25 03:38:54 PM

theflatline: sure haven't: unlikely: Samsung was making the best phones they knew how to make, Apple was just better at figuring out what would sell.

My opinion as well. You can fault Apple for a lot, but you can't deny the fact that they made a product for the consumer. One that "just works". I mean that's where the freakin cliche came from. They changed the game. I say this as someone who owns not a single Apple product. In fact I'm fully Microsoft. PC, Xbox, Windows Phone. But you better believe there would NOT be a windows phone if there was no iPhone. It's quality, pure and simple.

Really? There were windows phones as early as 2003.


Actually no, that was windows "mobile". Well I mean yes technically it was a "Windows" phone device. But it wasn't anything like the Windows Phone platform. This OS is a pure and clean mimic of iOS. Windows mobile was a mobile version of a desktop operating system with a start menu and everything. The two are about as vastly different as you can get.
Without the iPhone, there would be no Windows Phone platform today. They'd still be muddling around with Windows Mobile.
 
2012-07-25 03:41:36 PM

sure haven't: theflatline: sure haven't: unlikely: Samsung was making the best phones they knew how to make, Apple was just better at figuring out what would sell.

My opinion as well. You can fault Apple for a lot, but you can't deny the fact that they made a product for the consumer. One that "just works". I mean that's where the freakin cliche came from. They changed the game. I say this as someone who owns not a single Apple product. In fact I'm fully Microsoft. PC, Xbox, Windows Phone. But you better believe there would NOT be a windows phone if there was no iPhone. It's quality, pure and simple.

Really? There were windows phones as early as 2003.

Actually no, that was windows "mobile". Well I mean yes technically it was a "Windows" phone device. But it wasn't anything like the Windows Phone platform. This OS is a pure and clean mimic of iOS. Windows mobile was a mobile version of a desktop operating system with a start menu and everything. The two are about as vastly different as you can get.
Without the iPhone, there would be no Windows Phone platform today. They'd still be muddling around with Windows Mobile.


Muddling being too kind a word. I certainly miss doing the 4 month refresh on our company Blackjack II's...
 
2012-07-25 03:42:00 PM

emocomputerjock: As I understand it, once Apple violated the no-sue terms of the old arrangement, the old arrangement went out the window.


Patent exhaustion does not go out the window. It's an old legal concept. If you have been paid once for the patent on a manufactured item, once that item is sold, you can't go after the person who purchased if.

The exhaustion doctrine, also referred to as the first sale doctrine, is a common law patent doctrine that limits the extent to which patent holders can control a patented product after an authorized sale. Under the doctrine, once an unrestricted, authorized sale of a patented article occurs, the patent holder's exclusive rights to control the use and sale of that article are exhausted, and the purchaser is free to use or resell that article without further restraint from patent law.

Samsung did break an agreement with Qualcomm that explicitly said they would never go after Qualcomm's customers for using the licensed patents, but that doesn't make the legal concept of patent exhaustion go away.

Qualcomm has already paid Samsung once.

We'll have to see how the courts in the various nations react, of course.
 
2012-07-25 03:48:29 PM

Marine1: However, Microsoft still did the lion's share of development on the kernel that became Windows NT instead of OS/2's upgrade.


Not so fast there. The original NT OS/2 project was headed by David Cutler, formally of Digital Equipment Corp (DEC). He was a core developer of DEC VMS and project manager of the [canceled] DEC Mica OS. After he was laid off by DEC, Microsoft hired him, a couple dozen fellow developers and a few processor architects from DEC.

The NT kernel is heavily influenced by VMS. So while Microsoft may have paid the lion's share towards payroll to write those lines of code, it was DEC that paid for the original research that these guys took with them to Microsoft.


zedster: OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD


It is a little more complicated than that, but yeah, they rely heavily upon code with BSD or MIT licenses. But that is the benefit (or downfall) of a BSD or MIT license.


dalmo: Jake Havechek: Microsoft would not exist if Bill Gates hadn't stolen his OS from Xerox purchased his operating system from Seattle Computer Products.


Which in turn was heavily influenced by Digital Research CP/M. Gates essentially bought an 808x clone of another OS.
 
2012-07-25 03:50:34 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: They're making it an Mac App Store-only deal with... what's the one they're releasing today?... Mountain Lion. Looking at Apple's website, I don't see a boxed release, either. Does this mean you have to do it per computer or do you only download it once and then stick it on every machine?

And in order to reach the price of a MacBook Air with Windows 7 Home Premium upgrades, you'd have to upgrade somewhere around 20 computers.

Are you pretending Microsoft's limited time offer price is the real price? Why yes you are.

Sorry, having a product that is sold over the course of years have a sale price for a couple of weeks, does not the real price make.

And yes, you pay for OSX once stick it on every machine. You can make a USB key installer just as you can with Windows.

The same holds true with Apple's "Office" type apps. Pay once. Install on every machine in your household.


The Windows 7 Home Premium 3-pack has been available for quite a while now. It's not a limited-time offer.

Can someone try the new Mountain Lion upgrade and tell us how it works? I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer. Given the nature of most application stores and their wares, I'd be surprised.
 
2012-07-25 04:00:38 PM

Magorn: Dear Jerk: Marcus Aurelius
Apple wouldn't even exist any more if they didn't steal other people's tech. Starting with Xerox.

Ah,the Xerox myth. Xerox, at the time, was contractually obligated to show Apple all its projects. They tried to hide the mouse from Apple, but Apple sniffed it out and demanded to see it. After that, Apple developed a mouse that was far cheaper and more functional the the Xerox, which couldn't even drag diagonally.

I'mma gona neet a big, fat steaming cite for that because that's not at all the story I heard from folks who were at PARC at the time


The story as I have always heard it, was that there were certain people at PARC who realized that Xerox was crazy to show Apple everything at PARC for just the right to purchase a million dollars worth of Apple stock at pre-IPO prices. They did try to hide some things from Apple, but the mouse wasn't one of those things.

Heck, the mouse was invented at the Stanford Research Institute for NLS which was the computer that served as the inspiration for the Alto in the first place.
 
2012-07-25 04:03:30 PM

Marine1: BullBearMS: Marine1: They're making it an Mac App Store-only deal with... what's the one they're releasing today?... Mountain Lion. Looking at Apple's website, I don't see a boxed release, either. Does this mean you have to do it per computer or do you only download it once and then stick it on every machine?

And in order to reach the price of a MacBook Air with Windows 7 Home Premium upgrades, you'd have to upgrade somewhere around 20 computers.

Are you pretending Microsoft's limited time offer price is the real price? Why yes you are.

Sorry, having a product that is sold over the course of years have a sale price for a couple of weeks, does not the real price make.

And yes, you pay for OSX once stick it on every machine. You can make a USB key installer just as you can with Windows.

The same holds true with Apple's "Office" type apps. Pay once. Install on every machine in your household.

The Windows 7 Home Premium 3-pack has been available for quite a while now. It's not a limited-time offer.

Can someone try the new Mountain Lion upgrade and tell us how it works? I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer. Given the nature of most application stores and their wares, I'd be surprised.


Not sure about anyone else's account, but I've upgraded my three computers with nary a worry or mention that "You're limited on the number of computers you can upgrade." Then again, I do have a dev account.
 
2012-07-25 04:07:08 PM

Marine1: The Windows 7 Home Premium 3-pack has been available for quite a while now. It's not a limited-time offer.


It's also 300 bucks for only 3 computers. Also, Home Premium is a feature limited version of the OS.

Apple's OS is the full version for 19.99 which covers every computer you own.

Marine1: I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer.


Ars Technica:

As has been the case for all non-server versions of the Mac operating system, Mountain Lion has no serial number, no product activation, and no DRM of any kind. The standard Mac App Store license terms allow customers to install a copy of the software on "each Apple-branded computer [...] that you own or control," including two additional copies on each Mac inside virtual machines.
 
2012-07-25 04:09:26 PM
Magorn

Dear Jerk: Marcus Aurelius
Apple ...Xerox...mouse

I'mma gona neet a big, fat steaming cite for that because that's not at all the story I heard from folks who were at PARC at the time

It's covered pretty well in Isaacson's bio of Jobs.
 
2012-07-25 04:13:34 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: The Windows 7 Home Premium 3-pack has been available for quite a while now. It's not a limited-time offer.

It's also 300 bucks for only 3 computers. Also, Home Premium is a feature limited version of the OS.

Apple's OS is the full version for 19.99 which covers every computer you own.

Marine1: I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer.

Ars Technica:

As has been the case for all non-server versions of the Mac operating system, Mountain Lion has no serial number, no product activation, and no DRM of any kind. The standard Mac App Store license terms allow customers to install a copy of the software on "each Apple-branded computer [...] that you own or control," including two additional copies on each Mac inside virtual machines.


Mac users pay more initially and less as time goes on if they choose to upgrade
Windows users pay less initially and more as time goes on if they choose to upgrade.

Sounds like it balances out.
 
2012-07-25 04:19:19 PM

change1211: BullBearMS: Marine1: The Windows 7 Home Premium 3-pack has been available for quite a while now. It's not a limited-time offer.

It's also 300 bucks for only 3 computers. Also, Home Premium is a feature limited version of the OS.

Apple's OS is the full version for 19.99 which covers every computer you own.

Marine1: I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer.

Ars Technica:

As has been the case for all non-server versions of the Mac operating system, Mountain Lion has no serial number, no product activation, and no DRM of any kind. The standard Mac App Store license terms allow customers to install a copy of the software on "each Apple-branded computer [...] that you own or control," including two additional copies on each Mac inside virtual machines.

Mac users pay more initially and less as time goes on if they choose to upgrade
Windows users pay less initially and more as time goes on if they choose to upgrade.

Sounds like it balances out.


I'd argue if you want to have a balanced outlook you have to think of each service pack as equivalent to an OS X upgrade, in which case each release of Windows is at least 3 upgrades
 
2012-07-25 04:22:52 PM

change1211: Mac users pay more initially and less as time goes on if they choose to upgrade
Windows users pay less initially and more as time goes on if they choose to upgrade.


Windows users do have the option of buying cheap plastic crap computers, but when you buy a Windows laptop with the same specs and of the same build quality, they cost about the same amount.

For instance, ASUS' Zenbook Prime is an awesome little ultrabook. It uses a display panel that has a higher resolution and better color accuracy than the Macbook Air. However, it's more expensive than the Air too. Quality costs money.

Cheap plastic crap laptops are cheap for a reason. shiatty keyboards, trackpads that don't work worth a damn, and poor quality displays do not a good user experience make.
 
2012-07-25 04:24:12 PM

theurge14: The Singing Bush: theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]

You conveniently left this one off your "before" list:

[www.yourmobilephone.co.uk image 352x317]

Didn't conveniently leave it out.

"The first iPhone was unveiled by Steve Jobs, then CEO of Apple, on January 9, 2007,[1] and released on June 29, 2007"

"Using Vodafone as its network provider, the phone was first introduced at the 3GSM World Congress that was held in February 2007. Sales to the European market started November 2007."


Photos of the F700 leaked to the public back in August 2006

Look at how those icons in the bottom right photo are arranged. Even had a second camera on the front for video calls.
 
2012-07-25 04:31:58 PM

Marine1: Can someone try the new Mountain Lion upgrade and tell us how it works? I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer. Given the nature of most application stores and their wares, I'd be surprised.


It works just like is was described. I just upgraded my iMac and my wife's Macbook this morning without incident, just like when Lion came out last July. If you don't want to have to download a 4 GB installed twice, you can also open the installation package and copy the install files to a flash drive or DVD.
 
2012-07-25 04:35:07 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: The Windows 7 Home Premium 3-pack has been available for quite a while now. It's not a limited-time offer.

It's also 300 bucks for only 3 computers. Also, Home Premium is a feature limited version of the OS.

Apple's OS is the full version for 19.99 which covers every computer you own.

Marine1: I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer.

Ars Technica:

As has been the case for all non-server versions of the Mac operating system, Mountain Lion has no serial number, no product activation, and no DRM of any kind. The standard Mac App Store license terms allow customers to install a copy of the software on "each Apple-branded computer [...] that you own or control," including two additional copies on each Mac inside virtual machines.


That's actually a very good deal.
 
2012-07-25 04:37:37 PM

zedster: I'd argue if you want to have a balanced outlook you have to think of each service pack as equivalent to an OS X upgrade, in which case each release of Windows is at least 3 upgrades


Is this a joke or are you another one of those "I don't know what I'm talking about, but I have a strong opinion" people?

Apple numbers it's major releases and "service packs" differently than Microsoft. They use a three number format.

OSX version numbers always start with the 10.

The major "big cat" release numbers are the number behind the ten. 10.4 Tiger, 10.5 Leopard, 10.6 Snow Leopard, 10.7 Lion, 10.8 Mountain Lion.

The "service pack" numbers string along past another decimal place. 10.7.1, 10.7.2, 10.7.3

You get bonus computer geek points for knowing the "real" version numbers for NT are.

Windows NT 3.1 (DOS based Windows was at this version number when NT was released)
Windows NT 4
Windows NT 5 (Windows 2000)
Windows NT 5.1 (Windows XP)
Windows NT 6 (Windows Vista)
Windows NT 6.1 (Windows 7)
Windows NT 6.2 (Windows 8)
 
2012-07-25 04:43:35 PM

zedster: I'd argue if you want to have a balanced outlook you have to think of each service pack as equivalent to an OS X upgrade, in which case each release of Windows is at least 3 upgrades


Windows service packs typically don't add much in the way of new features, aside from a few relatively minor updates that happened in some of the XP service packs. Normally, they just tweak some things under the hood but the user never sees the changes, outside of some performance increases. With OS X, on the other hand, aside from the Leopard to Snow Leopard update, every update has added some new features that are very visible to the user. No, it's not quite the overhaul that Win 7 to Win 8 is, but Snow Leopard to Lion was at least as substantial an update as Vista to Win 7 (which aside from some taskbar changes and the addition of Home Groups and Libraries, really wasn't that different from Vista visually).

Plus, if you look at the actual version numbers, and not the numbers that come from the advertising department, Windows has actually looked this this for the past few years:

Vista = NT 6.0
Win 7 = NT 6.1
Win 8 = NT 6.2

So on the Microsoft side of things, you wound up paying $129 for a point upgrade from NT 6.0 to 6.1 and another $40 to go from NT 6.1 to 6.2.
 
2012-07-25 04:44:18 PM

zedster:
I'd argue if you want to have a balanced outlook you have to think of each service pack as equivalent to an OS X upgrade, in which case each release of Windows is at least 3 upgrades


I'd argue, based on your bullshiat about XQuartz not running X11 applications that you've no freaking idea what you're talking about but I think all the people in this thread will agree that it's quite amusing so please continue.

If you want to play point revision bingo I'm going to pull XP out and beat you with it.
 
2012-07-25 04:44:59 PM

Lando Lincoln: I really don't like Apple products, and I don't rightly give a crap who stole what from who.


WHOM!

/cringe
 
2012-07-25 05:10:39 PM

Theaetetus: DoJ already thought of that loophole. If you only cross-license among your patent pool, then fair and reasonable license fees to third parties not in the pool may be determined by independent market experts... not the pool members' questionable internal accounting. It's one of the examples in the 1995 Antitrust Guidelines, even.


The question is - what is a fair and reasonable license fee? Apple claims that the reasonable license fee to Samsung is $0.0049 per phone.
 
2012-07-25 05:16:31 PM

theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]


Unless you think Samsung has a time machine it's not telling you about...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_SGH-F700
Front: http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/phones/7832-specs/Samsung-SGH-F700. jpg
Back: http://www.phonesreview.co.uk/wp-content/phoneimages/2008/03/samf700cr oix2.jpg
(ignore the ugly ass strap thing the reviewer attached to the back.)

It's even got the camera in the upperleft hand corner. =)


Don't forget the LG Prada, as well.


Fixed that for you.
 
2012-07-25 05:23:42 PM

The Singing Bush: change1211: theurge14: The Singing Bush: theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]

You conveniently left this one off your "before" list:

[www.yourmobilephone.co.uk image 352x317]

Didn't conveniently leave it out.

"The first iPhone was unveiled by Steve Jobs, then CEO of Apple, on January 9, 2007,[1] and released on June 29, 2007"

"Using Vodafone as its network provider, the phone was first introduced at the 3GSM World Congress that was held in February 2007. Sales to the European market started November 2007."

So you're saying Samsung built a new product in a month?

Maybe they just rounded the edges and added icons after seeing the iPhone


The actually patented the design in 2006, kinda hard to do that before seeing the iphone in 2007, unless samsung also has time machines.
 
2012-07-25 05:24:13 PM

RexTalionis: The question is - what is a fair and reasonable license fee? Apple claims that the reasonable license fee to Samsung is $0.0049 per phone.


Another question that springs to mind is are we really expecting the courts to decide what a "fair price" is?
 
2012-07-25 05:27:22 PM

justink: theflatline:
Really? There were windows phones as early as 2003.

And those early windows phones did everything the first iPhones did plus more (Exchange & VPN are the biggies).



theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:
...
Samsung phones since the iPhone:

...

I notice a few phones missing there. The Rugby? Charge? There are plenty others from Samsung that are flip or have keyboards.

Samsung isn't the only one that is going with the large square screen. Everybody is going that way because that's what the consumer wants. We didn't have the selection of large screen phones before because of battery life. I have a phone sitting on my desk from '06 (xv6700) that is a large screen for its time. The battery was horrible in it. Since that phone came out in '06 and the iPhone came out in '07, does that mean Apple was copying the design from it? All they did was take away physical buttons and made them virtual. The physical shape was similar.

If Apple didn't come out with the iPhone, the only difference would be that Android wouldn't be as big and the smart phone market would be controlled by RIM and Microsoft. We would still have the slim, large screen phones.


My problem with all of this is the patent system and the trolls the abuse the system.


They did not do everything. But they did play music, videos, games, run apps, had exchange connectivity and vpn connectivity....
 
2012-07-25 05:30:22 PM
I believe I've already posted the dates when both phones were publicly announced and released.

As for the LG Prada, it's a similar story, they officially announced it a week after the iPhone.

Yes, we all realize these products were all under development for a long time before they were announced. But the point is Samsung was nowhere to be found at this time.
 
2012-07-25 05:36:47 PM

theflatline:
They did not do everything. But they did play music, videos, games, run apps, had exchange connectivity and vpn connectivity....


I always find it funny that CE6.5 (which was a whore and gave you crabs) would do things CE... erm... WP7 couldn't at the time of it's release; like talk to Exchange. I wonder who at Microsoft thought it was awesome to not bundle in the ability for their phone OS to talk to their mail server software.
 
2012-07-25 05:56:39 PM

Vaneshi: theflatline:
They did not do everything. But they did play music, videos, games, run apps, had exchange connectivity and vpn connectivity....

I always find it funny that CE6.5 (which was a whore and gave you crabs) would do things CE... erm... WP7 couldn't at the time of it's release; like talk to Exchange. I wonder who at Microsoft thought it was awesome to not bundle in the ability for their phone OS to talk to their mail server software.


It was probably less of that and more of "HOLY shiat BALLMER WILL RIP OUR ARMS OUT OF OUR SOCKETS IF WE DON'T GET THIS RELEASED".

The Windows Phone 7 that we have today is the second iteration of Windows Phone 7. The first one was to be based on WinCE 7, which never made its way to the market. There was a meeting where doors were locked and no one was allowed to leave until they decided whether not to scrap the original WP7. They killed it, and threw several months of progress away as a result.
 
2012-07-25 05:59:55 PM

NutznGum: BullBearMS: Marine1: The Windows 7 Home Premium 3-pack has been available for quite a while now. It's not a limited-time offer.

It's also 300 bucks for only 3 computers. Also, Home Premium is a feature limited version of the OS.

Apple's OS is the full version for 19.99 which covers every computer you own.

Marine1: I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer.

Ars Technica:

As has been the case for all non-server versions of the Mac operating system, Mountain Lion has no serial number, no product activation, and no DRM of any kind. The standard Mac App Store license terms allow customers to install a copy of the software on "each Apple-branded computer [...] that you own or control," including two additional copies on each Mac inside virtual machines.

That's actually a very good deal.


Especially if you need to take advantage of features that are only available in the full version of Windows, like Bitlocker whole disk encryption.

A single license to the full version of Windows 7 Ultimate costs $289.99 at Newegg. That's the version that keeps on working even if you get a new motherboard or new computer.

The upgrade only version of Windows 7 Ultimate costs $199.99 at Newegg.

The Windows 7 Ultimate 3 pack is only sold to people who build computers for a living (OEM's) and retails at $539.99 on Newegg. There isn't a home version of that one.

Since Apple only charges 20 bucks to install the full version of the OS on every computer you own, you can see why I say you don't have to pay Microsoft's price gouging fees for very many PC's before you could get a free Macbook Air with the price difference.
 
2012-07-25 06:00:17 PM

Marine1:
It was probably less of that and more of "HOLY shiat BALLMER WILL RIP OUR ARMS OUT OF OUR SOCKETS IF WE DON'T GET THIS RELEASED".


I suspect there is a lot of that in the mix, which leads us right back to Ballmer being bad for Microsoft.
 
2012-07-25 06:52:03 PM

Vaneshi: theflatline:
They did not do everything. But they did play music, videos, games, run apps, had exchange connectivity and vpn connectivity....

I always find it funny that CE6.5 (which was a whore and gave you crabs) would do things CE... erm... WP7 couldn't at the time of it's release; like talk to Exchange. I wonder who at Microsoft thought it was awesome to not bundle in the ability for their phone OS to talk to their mail server software.


You could talk to Exchange with the original release of Windows Phone 7, including contact and calendar sync. The only thing that was missing with first release was task syncing, and the ability to sync multiple Exchange accounts on the same handset. Email push, GAL, and all the other common stuff you would want to do with Exchange has always been there.

I think what you were thinking of is the fact that Windows Phone doesn't sync with OUTLOOK via USB or Bluetooth like Windows Mobile did, rather it does all the syncing via the cloud. You can do some work arounds using Windows Live to sync contacts and calendars if you don't have an Exchange server available, but a lot of people were up in arms that you couldn't do direct syncing without getting the cloud involved in some way.
 
2012-07-25 07:04:33 PM
How strange...if Samsung wasn't copying Apple, then explain why GOOGLE themselves told Samsung they were in fact copying the iPad, and advised them to change the design?

In February 2010, Google told Samsung that Samsung's "P1" and "P3" tablets (Galaxy Tab and Galaxy Tab 10.1) were "too similar" to the iPad and demanded "distinguishable design vis-à-vis the iPad for the P3."/a>
 
2012-07-25 07:06:18 PM

Vaneshi: Marine1:
It was probably less of that and more of "HOLY shiat BALLMER WILL RIP OUR ARMS OUT OF OUR SOCKETS IF WE DON'T GET THIS RELEASED".

I suspect there is a lot of that in the mix, which leads us right back to Ballmer being bad for Microsoft.


In that case, I wouldn't say it was. Windows Mobile 6.5 was an asshole and WP7 is, from a usability and stability standpoint, light years ahead of it. To have waited any longer would have been a huge blow to an already fragile market position. I'd say that product-wise, it was the right move. Sales haven't played out like expected but there's quite a few reasons for that and plenty of blame to go around.

BullBearMS: NutznGum: BullBearMS: Marine1: The Windows 7 Home Premium 3-pack has been available for quite a while now. It's not a limited-time offer.

It's also 300 bucks for only 3 computers. Also, Home Premium is a feature limited version of the OS.

Apple's OS is the full version for 19.99 which covers every computer you own.

Marine1: I'm genuinely curious to see if you can still upgrade multiple machines with the Mac Store upgrade path they offer.

Ars Technica:

As has been the case for all non-server versions of the Mac operating system, Mountain Lion has no serial number, no product activation, and no DRM of any kind. The standard Mac App Store license terms allow customers to install a copy of the software on "each Apple-branded computer [...] that you own or control," including two additional copies on each Mac inside virtual machines.

That's actually a very good deal.

Especially if you need to take advantage of features that are only available in the full version of Windows, like Bitlocker whole disk encryption.

A single license to the full version of Windows 7 Ultimate costs $289.99 at Newegg. That's the version that keeps on working even if you get a new motherboard or new computer.

The upgrade only version of Windows 7 Ultimate costs $199.99 at Newegg.

The Windows 7 Ultimate 3 pack is only sold to people who build computers for a living (OEM's) and retails at $539.99 on Newegg. There isn't a home version of that one.

Since Apple only charges 20 bucks to install the full version of the OS on every computer you own, you can see why I say you don't have to pay Microsoft's price gouging fees for very many PC's before you could get a free Macbook Air with the price difference.


I know one person who uses Ultimate, and that's me. Home Premium is enough for most users, and it costs $129 to do that for three computers. Windows 8 will probably cost less than Windows 7 did as well.
 
2012-07-25 07:26:47 PM

Marine1: I know one person who uses Ultimate, and that's me. Home Premium is enough for most users, and it costs $129 to do that for three computers. Windows 8 will probably cost less than Windows 7 did as well.


First, disk encryption for a laptop isn't exactly an obscure function for an device that is easily stolen. Identity theft is a real issue, and you must enable whole disk encryption to prevent laptop thieves from having access to all your data.

Apple's OS offers it for every computer you own for a flat 20 bucks. The version of Windows that can do this sells for two hundred bucks per computer just for the upgrade version.

Disk encryption is far from the only function Home Premium lacks.

Second, the limited Home Premium version 3-pack for OEM's is $289.99. The version aimed at home users is not even for sale anymore at Newegg.

Are you being paid to offer all this misinformation?.
 
2012-07-25 07:30:24 PM

angry_scientist: Kevin72: I'm in Vietnam now. My Viet friend encouraged me to get a

What the? You're on the internet and have a smartphone? Turn that shiat off! You'll give away your position!


What me worry? If I am in a wifi zone, Google Maps knows EXACTLY where I am. Like which lateral room I am in at my hotel. It can't do vertical and know which floor I am on, so there's that.
 
2012-07-25 07:40:07 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: I know one person who uses Ultimate, and that's me. Home Premium is enough for most users, and it costs $129 to do that for three computers. Windows 8 will probably cost less than Windows 7 did as well.

First, disk encryption for a laptop isn't exactly an obscure function for an device that is easily stolen. Identity theft is a real issue, and you must enable whole disk encryption to prevent laptop thieves from having access to all your data.

Apple's OS offers it for every computer you own for a flat 20 bucks. The version of Windows that can do this sells for two hundred bucks per computer just for the upgrade version.

Disk encryption is far from the only function Home Premium lacks.

Second, the limited Home Premium version 3-pack for OEM's is $289.99. The version aimed at home users is not even for sale anymore at Newegg.

Are you being paid to offer all this misinformation?.


Apparently, you like overpaying for things.

Amazon
 
2012-07-25 07:58:57 PM

Marine1: Apparently, you like overpaying for things.


Apparently, you think people should have to search around for a discount price on the limited version of the OS, instead of getting the full version for a 20 dollar flat rate.

Also out today are the new versions of Apple's "office" apps, which are, of course, a free upgrade.

Also, also, the pricing for Surface has just "surfaced" on a Swedish website and after taking into account the exchange rate, the cheapest ARM version is around a thousand bucks and the cheapest Intel version is around two thousand bucks.

Can you say price gouging?
 
2012-07-25 09:14:41 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: Apparently, you like overpaying for things.

Apparently, you think people should have to search around for a discount price on the limited version of the OS, instead of getting the full version for a 20 dollar flat rate.

Also out today are the new versions of Apple's "office" apps, which are, of course, a free upgrade.


That's because Apple developed $20 worth of product. The rest of it is FOSS underpinnings.

Also, compared to Office, just about everything sucks.


Also, also, the pricing for Surface has just "surfaced" on a Swedish website and after taking into account the exchange rate, the cheapest ARM version is around a thousand bucks and the cheapest Intel version is around two thousand bucks.
Can you say price gouging?


The release of the WinRT Surface is three months away, and the Surface Pro is about six away. A lot can change between now and then, and to be honest, I wouldn't trust anything anyone says at this point. Hell, no one knew that tablet existed up until the moment it was announced... not any clue at all. How likely is it they have access to pricing info on a Microsoft product that's three months away from launch (minimum) that was one of the company's best-kept secrets?
 
2012-07-25 09:21:36 PM

Marine1: The release of the WinRT Surface is three months away, and the Surface Pro is about six away. A lot can change between now and then, and to be honest, I wouldn't trust anything anyone says at this point. Hell, no one knew that tablet existed up until the moment it was announced... not any clue at all. How likely is it they have access to pricing info on a Microsoft product that's three months away from launch (minimum) that was one of the company's best-kept secrets?


MS said they'd only sell the Surface in MS stores, which there are none of in Sweden.
 
2012-07-25 09:27:19 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: I know one person who uses Ultimate, and that's me. Home Premium is enough for most users, and it costs $129 to do that for three computers. Windows 8 will probably cost less than Windows 7 did as well.

First, disk encryption for a laptop isn't exactly an obscure function for an device that is easily stolen. Identity theft is a real issue, and you must enable whole disk encryption to prevent laptop thieves from having access to all your data.

Apple's OS offers it for every computer you own for a flat 20 bucks. The version of Windows that can do this sells for two hundred bucks per computer just for the upgrade version.

Disk encryption is far from the only function Home Premium lacks.

Second, the limited Home Premium version 3-pack for OEM's is $289.99. The version aimed at home users is not even for sale anymore at Newegg.

Are you being paid to offer all this misinformation?.


Umm.. TrueCrypt does full disk encryption fine without costing a penny.

/just sounds like you are implying that without paying for the ultimate edition, you can't encrypt your hard drive.
/don't use windows or osx
 
2012-07-25 09:28:34 PM

Icetech3: I have already stated my feelings on apple products today:) BUT.... my iphone is the worst phone i owned.. sold it and got a galaxy s2.. AWESOME... and lovin android...


Too bad it's not an S3. That thing is a monster.
 
2012-07-25 09:28:45 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: ENOUGH ALREADY...


When apple quits filing lawsuits it will stop, they have decided to just sue.
 
2012-07-25 09:42:17 PM

OriginalGamer: How strange...if Samsung wasn't copying Apple, then explain why GOOGLE themselves told Samsung they were in fact copying the iPad, and advised them to change the design?

In February 2010, Google told Samsung that Samsung's "P1" and "P3" tablets (Galaxy Tab and Galaxy Tab 10.1) were "too similar" to the iPad and demanded "distinguishable design vis-à-vis the iPad for the P3."/a>


So a blurb proves your point?

Apple sucks so fark them
 
2012-07-25 09:54:41 PM

steamingpile: OriginalGamer: How strange...if Samsung wasn't copying Apple, then explain why GOOGLE themselves told Samsung they were in fact copying the iPad, and advised them to change the design?

In February 2010, Google told Samsung that Samsung's "P1" and "P3" tablets (Galaxy Tab and Galaxy Tab 10.1) were "too similar" to the iPad and demanded "distinguishable design vis-à-vis the iPad for the P3."/a>

So a blurb proves your point?

Apple sucks so fark them


Do you mean the company, or their products? Because if you're saying iPhones and iPads suck that wouldn't make sense, considering that both are selling like mad, are always well reviewed, and have some of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry. Rebuttal?
 
2012-07-25 09:54:46 PM

SharkTrager: Too bad it's not an S3. That thing is a monster.


That will be my first smartphone. Guy at work got one. It's awesome. The only drawback is that it won't fit in a dress shirt front pocket.
 
2012-07-25 09:59:31 PM

Kevin72: You must do things the Apple way and only the Apple way. I'm in Vietnam now. My Viet friend encouraged me to get a used 3GS in America for $150 and he will sell it $200 at the end of the trip. Fine. But I still can't get my damn music from the USB memory stick to the phone. It's all in the iCloud. Sure it is. So how come it isn't? It was on the phone before i came here and had to reset the phone to make local calls

I was planning to replace my Palm Pre with the i5phone in November, but I think I will follow the advice given to me to get an Android instead.


this whole line of reasoning I see time and time again in threads amazes me. So you don't know how something works yet you blame the maker of such tech and say they are in the wrong. I am not trying to defend Apple but don't blame them because you have no idea how itunes, iphones, and icloud work.

/owns a galaxy nexus and nexus 7
 
2012-07-25 10:27:10 PM

beer4breakfast: Marine1: The release of the WinRT Surface is three months away, and the Surface Pro is about six away. A lot can change between now and then, and to be honest, I wouldn't trust anything anyone says at this point. Hell, no one knew that tablet existed up until the moment it was announced... not any clue at all. How likely is it they have access to pricing info on a Microsoft product that's three months away from launch (minimum) that was one of the company's best-kept secrets?

MS said they'd only sell the Surface in MS stores, which there are none of in Sweden.


Forgot about that, thanks.
 
2012-07-25 10:49:51 PM

Marine1: That's because Apple developed $20 worth of product. The rest of it is FOSS underpinnings.


Awww... It's adorable when someone who is such a retarded fanboy that they have previously claimed that Windows Phone 7 "has momentum" continues shoving their head in their ass.
 
2012-07-25 11:17:25 PM

BullBearMS: Marine1: That's because Apple developed $20 worth of product. The rest of it is FOSS underpinnings.

Awww... It's adorable when someone who is such a retarded fanboy that they have previously claimed that Windows Phone 7 "has momentum" continues shoving their head in their ass.


Nose diving in to the floor whilst on fire is technically "momentum".
 
2012-07-25 11:22:37 PM

Marine1: BullBearMS: Marine1: I know one person who uses Ultimate, and that's me. Home Premium is enough for most users, and it costs $129 to do that for three computers. Windows 8 will probably cost less than Windows 7 did as well.

First, disk encryption for a laptop isn't exactly an obscure function for an device that is easily stolen. Identity theft is a real issue, and you must enable whole disk encryption to prevent laptop thieves from having access to all your data.

Apple's OS offers it for every computer you own for a flat 20 bucks. The version of Windows that can do this sells for two hundred bucks per computer just for the upgrade version.

Disk encryption is far from the only function Home Premium lacks.

Second, the limited Home Premium version 3-pack for OEM's is $289.99. The version aimed at home users is not even for sale anymore at Newegg.

Are you being paid to offer all this misinformation?.

Apparently, you like overpaying for things.

Amazon


that's what I was wondering go to amazon or Newegg.com and get an OEM license for dirt cheap. who cares about full retail packaging.
 
2012-07-25 11:32:23 PM

H31N0US: SharkTrager: Too bad it's not an S3. That thing is a monster.

That will be my first smartphone. Guy at work got one. It's awesome. The only drawback is that it won't fit in a dress shirt front pocket.


Yet another reason I love that I wear cargo shorts and polos to work.
 
2012-07-25 11:48:02 PM

OriginalGamer: Do you mean the company, or their products? Because if you're saying iPhones and iPads suck that wouldn't make sense, considering that both are selling like mad, are always well reviewed, and have some of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry. Rebuttal?


Apple sucks, so fark them.
 
2012-07-26 12:21:19 AM

BullBearMS: Marine1: Apparently, you like overpaying for things.

Apparently, you think people should have to search around for a discount price on the limited version of the OS, instead of getting the full version for a 20 dollar flat rate.

Also out today are the new versions of Apple's "office" apps, which are, of course, a free upgrade.

Also, also, the pricing for Surface has just "surfaced" on a Swedish website and after taking into account the exchange rate, the cheapest ARM version is around a thousand bucks and the cheapest Intel version is around two thousand bucks.

Can you say price gouging?


Wow, if you believe this then you're a complete moron.

BullBearMS: change1211: Mac users pay more initially and less as time goes on if they choose to upgrade
Windows users pay less initially and more as time goes on if they choose to upgrade.

Windows users do have the option of buying cheap plastic crap computers, but when you buy a Windows laptop with the same specs and of the same build quality, they cost about the same amount.

For instance, ASUS' Zenbook Prime is an awesome little ultrabook. It uses a display panel that has a higher resolution and better color accuracy than the Macbook Air. However, it's more expensive than the Air too. Quality costs money.

Cheap plastic crap laptops are cheap for a reason. shiatty keyboards, trackpads that don't work worth a damn, and poor quality displays do not a good user experience make.


Hey look, more proof you're a dumbass.

Link

I'm using a 17" Acer with an i7, a 256GB SSD, 8GB of RAM and 1.5GB of VRAM. It cost $1299 and the build quality is outstanding.

Is there an Apple laptop that can compare?
 
2012-07-26 01:47:34 AM

theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:

[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]
[i.imgur.com image 170x170]


SO what you are saying is samsung phones have ALWAYS been rectangular and Apple is a company full of lowlife scumbags?

Judging by their fanbois, Id say that makes sense.
 
2012-07-26 03:45:38 AM

zedster: how can you have a whole thread about Apple stealing and no mention of taking from the BSD community and not giving a damn thing back?

At least Windows is it's own OS, OS X is just a bunch of proprietary packages over BSD


Those FreeBSD parts are over a proprietary kernel, too.

\As others have mentioned, Apple has given back to the BSD community too
 
2012-07-26 04:10:32 AM
I just bought a Galaxy S3 online and am eagerly awaiting its arrival.

I have had 2 iphones, and they are overrated, deliberately crippled hunks of sh*t. Itunes is some of the worst software that I have had the misfortune of installing on any of my machines. Apple's abuse of the legal system to prevent legitimate competition is astonishing proof of how broken the legal system is in terms of intellectual property.
 
2012-07-26 06:30:12 AM

change1211: I'm using a 17" Acer with an i7, a 256GB SSD, 8GB of RAM and 1.5GB of VRAM. It cost $1299 and the build quality is outstanding.

Is there an Apple laptop that can compare?


You're using a mystery laptop that you claim specs out better, but you won't give a link to the exact model number so everyone can compare the quality of the display panel, battery life, reviews of build quality, materials and components used and such?

I'm sure you're legit.

As I've said before on several occasions, ASUS' new Zenbook Prime is a great example of an ultrabook that outspecs the quality of the components in Apple's Macbook Air in quite a few different ways. It's one of the only laptops whose display panel is more color accurate, has better viewing angles, and is at a higher resolution than the Air.

It's just not cheaper.
 
2012-07-26 08:08:29 AM

BullBearMS: For instance, Dell's shiny new XPS 15 has roughly the same specs, build quality and price as a Macbook Pro. ASUS' new Zenbook Prime is roughly equivalent to a Macbook Air in specs, build quality, and price.


13" MBP with i5 processor, 128GB SSD, 4GB of RAM=£1159
13" Dell XPS Ultrabook with i5 processor, 128GB SSD, 4GB of RAM=£949

So, there's still a price premium for a Mac. Not a huge one (and certainly not in the "Apple costs double", but it's still there. Arguably if you're going to use all the media apps, and when you consider 2nd hand prices, it may be worth it. YMMV.
 
2012-07-26 09:28:41 AM

TheGhostofFarkPast: Kevin72: You must do things the Apple way and only the Apple way. I'm in Vietnam now. My Viet friend encouraged me to get a used 3GS in America for $150 and he will sell it $200 at the end of the trip. Fine. But I still can't get my damn music from the USB memory stick to the phone. It's all in the iCloud. Sure it is. So how come it isn't? It was on the phone before i came here and had to reset the phone to make local calls

I was planning to replace my Palm Pre with the i5phone in November, but I think I will follow the advice given to me to get an Android instead.

this whole line of reasoning I see time and time again in threads amazes me. So you don't know how something works yet you blame the maker of such tech and say they are in the wrong. I am not trying to defend Apple but don't blame them because you have no idea how itunes, iphones, and icloud work.

/owns a galaxy nexus and nexus 7


No. Either it is user friendly or a nightmare. I've had 3 weeks before going to "Nam because I also bought 4 other iPhones my friend sent. Any other phone I could drag files from the Sandisk. I had the musicand photos before I came which supposedly in the iCloud. After i reset the phone to get Viet phone service, it was gone i gave it an honest try. Apple hates me for already having music and not buying it from iTunes which I suppose would be easy.
 
2012-07-26 09:33:29 AM

Kevin72: angry_scientist: Kevin72: I'm in Vietnam now. My Viet friend encouraged me to get a

What the? You're on the internet and have a smartphone? Turn that shiat off! You'll give away your position!

What me worry? If I am in a wifi zone, Google Maps knows EXACTLY where I am. Like which lateral room I am in at my hotel. It can't do vertical and know which floor I am on, so there's that.


Oops I missed your joke. Charley is everywhere!
 
2012-07-26 09:51:01 AM

sure haven't: You can fault Apple for a lot, but you can't deny the fact that they made a product for the consumer.


Barf.

sure haven't: One that "just works".


Retch.

sure haven't: They changed the game.


Hurl.

sure haven't: I say this as someone who owns not a single Apple product.


Pu-huh? Then what do you know about anything "just working"? My wife's iCrap couldn't even accept a simple 3rd party install without throwing a shiat fit a couple of days ago. She didn't even know how to open a command line on the damn thing, so I could fix it. Apple builds hamstrung products that work well as long as you don't need them to do anything other that what they do right out of the box.
 
2012-07-26 10:10:32 AM

theurge14: Samsung phones immediately before the original iPhone launch:

[i.imgur.com image 300x300]
[i.imgur.com image 155x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x350]
[i.imgur.com image 163x300]
[i.imgur.com image 327x383]
[i.imgur.com image 257x300]
[i.imgur.com image 179x300]
[i.imgur.com image 193x299]
[i.imgur.com image 235x299]
[i.imgur.com image 193x300]
[i.imgur.com image 187x299]
[i.imgur.com image 183x298]

Samsung phones since the iPhone:


This is such a biased graphic. Here's a better one that shows Samsung's touchscreen devices prior to the iPhone's launch as well.

allthingsd.com
 
2012-07-26 10:16:37 AM
Biased graphic? Yours has several that say "mock up". I pulled my images from a mobile review site from 2007 and the current ones from the first three pages Samsung's current mobile offerings on their own website.
 
2012-07-26 04:46:47 PM

BullBearMS: change1211: I'm using a 17" Acer with an i7, a 256GB SSD, 8GB of RAM and 1.5GB of VRAM. It cost $1299 and the build quality is outstanding.

Is there an Apple laptop that can compare?

You're using a mystery laptop that you claim specs out better, but you won't give a link to the exact model number so everyone can compare the quality of the display panel, battery life, reviews of build quality, materials and components used and such?

I'm sure you're legit.

As I've said before on several occasions, ASUS' new Zenbook Prime is a great example of an ultrabook that outspecs the quality of the components in Apple's Macbook Air in quite a few different ways. It's one of the only laptops whose display panel is more color accurate, has better viewing angles, and is at a higher resolution than the Air.

It's just not cheaper.


I'm at work, laptop isn't. And I think in this thread only one of us has proven to be a rabid fanboy so I'd argue that you've got less credibility because of it.

theurge14: Biased graphic? Yours has several that say "mock up". I pulled my images from a mobile review site from 2007 and the current ones from the first three pages Samsung's current mobile offerings on their own website.


Why wouldn't design examples count? Just because they didn't bring it to market doesn't mean they didn't design and potentially build the thing. The most common claim is that Samsung saw the iPhone and then built a copy of it but the image that Shadow posted shows that they had designed several phones that look quite similar to the iPhone before it's release.
 
2012-07-26 09:21:48 PM

farkeruk: BullBearMS: For instance, Dell's shiny new XPS 15 has roughly the same specs, build quality and price as a Macbook Pro. ASUS' new Zenbook Prime is roughly equivalent to a Macbook Air in specs, build quality, and price.

13" MBP with i5 processor, 128GB SSD, 4GB of RAM=£1159
13" Dell XPS Ultrabook with i5 processor, 128GB SSD, 4GB of RAM=£949

So, there's still a price premium for a Mac. Not a huge one (and certainly not in the "Apple costs double", but it's still there. Arguably if you're going to use all the media apps, and when you consider 2nd hand prices, it may be worth it. YMMV.


Here's the thing. Those aren't the only specs.

What materials are they built out of? Is the hinge built so that it won't just fall apart with use?

What are the specs on the display panel? How color accurate is it? What is the pixel resolution? How much power does it draw? What is the brightness? What is the contrast?

dl.dropbox.com

dl.dropbox.com

It's always easier to build a cheap computer if you use a cheap display panel. They aren't all the same.

How fast is the SSD at sequential reads, sequential writes, random reads, and random writes?

You hopefully get the picture. You can't just say what the CPU is and how much RAM it has and think you have compared two computers.

If you haven't before, start reading reviews at AnandTech where they don't just gloss over the surface of these things.

That's why people who claim their laptop is so much better and cheaper, but refuse to give the exact model number so you can see what the full specs on it are have always been so laughable.
 
2012-07-26 09:50:25 PM

BullBearMS: farkeruk: BullBearMS: For instance, Dell's shiny new XPS 15 has roughly the same specs, build quality and price as a Macbook Pro. ASUS' new Zenbook Prime is roughly equivalent to a Macbook Air in specs, build quality, and price.

13" MBP with i5 processor, 128GB SSD, 4GB of RAM=£1159
13" Dell XPS Ultrabook with i5 processor, 128GB SSD, 4GB of RAM=£949

So, there's still a price premium for a Mac. Not a huge one (and certainly not in the "Apple costs double", but it's still there. Arguably if you're going to use all the media apps, and when you consider 2nd hand prices, it may be worth it. YMMV.

Here's the thing. Those aren't the only specs.

What materials are they built out of? Is the hinge built so that it won't just fall apart with use?

What are the specs on the display panel? How color accurate is it? What is the pixel resolution? How much power does it draw? What is the brightness? What is the contrast?

[dl.dropbox.com image 580x400]

[dl.dropbox.com image 580x400]

It's always easier to build a cheap computer if you use a cheap display panel. They aren't all the same.

How fast is the SSD at sequential reads, sequential writes, random reads, and random writes?

You hopefully get the picture. You can't just say what the CPU is and how much RAM it has and think you have compared two computers.

If you haven't before, start reading reviews at AnandTech where they don't just gloss over the surface of these things.

That's why people who claim their laptop is so much better and cheaper, but refuse to give the exact model number so you can see what the full specs on it are have always been so laughable.


How come there was no MacBook on either of those graphs? Doesn't that make it kind of hard to compare?
 
2012-07-26 10:05:16 PM

change1211: How come there was no MacBook on either of those graphs? Doesn't that make it kind of hard to compare?


Because those are from the just published today first look at the new revision of the Dell XPS 15.

If you want the numbers for the recent Macbook refresh you would read the review of the Macbook and find the numbers there.

dl.dropbox.com

dl.dropbox.com

As I've mentioned before, that ASUS Zenbook Prime has an really nice display panel.

Also, the Razer Blade has a really nice display panel, but at $2,700 you could be pretty sure they weren't using cheap components.
 
2012-07-26 10:29:44 PM

theurge14: Biased graphic? Yours has several that say "mock up". I pulled my images from a mobile review site from 2007 and the current ones from the first three pages Samsung's current mobile offerings on their own website.


Yes, biased, because given the graphic I posted it's clear that Samsung was already developing, or thinking about developing touch screen devices that. In fact, given the designs Sammy was conceptualizing, if not actually building, their Android phones look like natural progressions from the same.
 
2012-07-26 10:40:03 PM

Shadow writer: theurge14: Biased graphic? Yours has several that say "mock up". I pulled my images from a mobile review site from 2007 and the current ones from the first three pages Samsung's current mobile offerings on their own website.

Yes, biased, because given the graphic I posted it's clear that Samsung was already developing, or thinking about developing touch screen devices that. In fact, given the designs Sammy was conceptualizing, if not actually building, their Android phones look like natural progressions from the same.


It proves as much as Microsoft's Courier images proved.
 
2012-07-27 01:02:38 AM

BullBearMS: change1211: How come there was no MacBook on either of those graphs? Doesn't that make it kind of hard to compare?

Because those are from the just published today first look at the new revision of the Dell XPS 15.

If you want the numbers for the recent Macbook refresh you would read the review of the Macbook and find the numbers there.

[dl.dropbox.com image 550x500]

[dl.dropbox.com image 550x500]

As I've mentioned before, that ASUS Zenbook Prime has an really nice display panel.

Also, the Razer Blade has a really nice display panel, but at $2,700 you could be pretty sure they weren't using cheap components.


Damn, sounds like I should be looking at the Zenbook.
 
2012-07-27 01:27:49 AM

change1211: Damn, sounds like I should be looking at the Zenbook.


So far, the Zenbook Prime is the best of the Windows Ultrabooks.

The one that is testing out so well has a 11.6-inch 1920 x 1080 IPS display panel. That's quite a high DPI for a display panel that small as well.

Just make sure you look at Zenbook Primes. The prior model was just called a Zenbook and was a steaming pile of shiat.
 
2012-07-27 01:33:30 AM

theurge14: Shadow writer: theurge14: Biased graphic? Yours has several that say "mock up". I pulled my images from a mobile review site from 2007 and the current ones from the first three pages Samsung's current mobile offerings on their own website.

Yes, biased, because given the graphic I posted it's clear that Samsung was already developing, or thinking about developing touch screen devices that. In fact, given the designs Sammy was conceptualizing, if not actually building, their Android phones look like natural progressions from the same.

It proves as much as Microsoft's Courier images proved.


If your original assertion was that Samsung ripped off the look of the iPhone, you've been conclusively proven wrong, regardless of the when the actual products were released. It's obvious that the blank rectange design was in development at Samsung LONG before the iPhone came out. The model numbers are listed right up there. "Mock-up" status is irrelevant. A mock-up is still prior art.

As much as I hear people hating on the "rabid Apple fanboys" that supposedly abound on the internet, I must admit I don't often see people that actually fit the description as obnoxiously as you do.
 
2012-07-27 01:45:51 AM

BullBearMS: change1211: Damn, sounds like I should be looking at the Zenbook.

So far, the Zenbook Prime is the best of the Windows Ultrabooks.

The one that is testing out so well has a 11.6-inch 1920 x 1080 IPS display panel. That's quite a high DPI for a display panel that small as well.

Just make sure you look at Zenbook Primes. The prior model was just called a Zenbook and was a steaming pile of shiat.


Yeah I remember that release, that was terrible. I've got the original Asus Transformer with a keyboard and it's doing a pretty good job as a video player, 16GB of internal memory and two 32GB SD cards means I can fit a whole bunch of videos on it and the battery lasts about 14 hours. Very nice compared to the 1.75 hours that my laptop gets.
 
2012-07-27 09:01:28 AM

Z-clipped: theurge14: Shadow writer: theurge14: Biased graphic? Yours has several that say "mock up". I pulled my images from a mobile review site from 2007 and the current ones from the first three pages Samsung's current mobile offerings on their own website.

Yes, biased, because given the graphic I posted it's clear that Samsung was already developing, or thinking about developing touch screen devices that. In fact, given the designs Sammy was conceptualizing, if not actually building, their Android phones look like natural progressions from the same.

It proves as much as Microsoft's Courier images proved.

If your original assertion was that Samsung ripped off the look of the iPhone, you've been conclusively proven wrong, regardless of the when the actual products were released. It's obvious that the blank rectange design was in development at Samsung LONG before the iPhone came out. The model numbers are listed right up there. "Mock-up" status is irrelevant. A mock-up is still prior art.


Again, a mock-up proves nothing. An iPhone is not simply a rectangle. The iPhone was not simply an LG Prada with a different logo.

As much as I hear people hating on the "rabid Apple fanboys" that supposedly abound on the internet, I must admit I don't often see people that actually fit the description as obnoxiously as you do.

I posted facts without comment. Grow thicker skin, welcome to Fark, etc.
 
2012-07-27 12:53:57 PM

theurge14: I posted facts without comment.


You posted incomplete facts without comment in order to imply something. And I posted commentary on that implication. Like I said, if you were implying that Samsung styled its products after the iPhone (which is certainly what it looks like you're saying, since you unsuccessfully attempted to defend attacks on that position), you've been proven conclusively wrong. Prior art is prior art. Samsung was designing and building phones with similar look and feel to the iPhone before it was released. And yes actually, even if the F700 hadn't already existed, mock-ups DO prove that. That is, in fact, what mock-ups are for.

theurge14: An iPhone is not simply a rectangle.


It is until you turn it on. Were you implying something about the operating systems or software of Samsung phones previous to, and after the release of the iPhone? Because if so, pictures of phones with their screens turned off might not be the best way to get your point across. Or are you just backpedaling now?

theurge14: Grow thicker skin, welcome to Fark, etc.


I think you've mistaken my enjoying rubbing your nose in the fact that you were glib and pedantic and got your ass handed to you, for me being upset. Had you been correct about anything you posted in this thread, I wouldn't have even bothered to reply to you. I was just amazed to see such a caricature in the flesh (so to speak), since I hadn't really believed that people like you were real.

I also find it a little pathetic that you're so devoted to upholding the image of a company that has made millions of dollars selling a product that forces users to conform to its design, instead of conforming the product to its users. Apple's greatest success is in lifestyle marketing, not in creating a superior product. If you're going to go out of your way to congratulate them, congratulate them for convincing so many people that its more important for a phone/computer to make them feel good about themselves than for it to have any kind of versatile utility.

Cheers. Enjoy your iThings.
 
2012-07-27 04:25:06 PM

Z-clipped: theurge14: I posted facts without comment.

You posted incomplete facts without comment in order to imply something. And I posted commentary on that implication. Like I said, if you were implying that Samsung styled its products after the iPhone (which is certainly what it looks like you're saying, since you unsuccessfully attempted to defend attacks on that position), you've been proven conclusively wrong. Prior art is prior art. Samsung was designing and building phones with similar look and feel to the iPhone before it was released. And yes actually, even if the F700 hadn't already existed, mock-ups DO prove that. That is, in fact, what mock-ups are for.


The implication is that it's quite remarkable how Samsung (and the industry) changed their mobile products after the introduction of the iPhone. You can argue mock-ups and prior art all you want (and technically it doesn't qualify as prior art when it's kept from the public as trade secrets), and focus on details in similarities of form factor, but the truth is found in the actual product as a whole. Samsung was focusing on feature phones in 2007, afterwards they moved their focus to iPhone-like phones. That's the
implication you seem to be missing. Yes there was a LG Prada that "looked like" an iPhone, but it was a feature phone that was only similar at first glance. And same with the Samsung F700, while at first glance looked similar, turned out to have a slide-out keyboard and something called "Croix UI" on top of old feature phone OS. Samsung didn't ship their first Android phone until 2009. So no, the phones were not the same.

theurge14: An iPhone is not simply a rectangle.

It is until you turn it on. Were you implying something about the operating systems or software of Samsung phones previous to, and after the release of the iPhone? Because if so, pictures of phones with their screens turned off might not be the best way to get your point across. Or are you just backpedaling now?


What in the world are you talking about?

theurge14: Grow thicker skin, welcome to Fark, etc.

I think you've mistaken my enjoying rubbing your nose in the fact that you were glib and pedantic and got your ass handed to you, for me being upset. Had you been correct about anything you posted in this thread, I wouldn't have even bothered to reply to you. I was just amazed to see such a caricature in the flesh (so to speak), since I hadn't really believed that people like you were real.


Ass handed to me? Upset? Is there another Fark thread going on in your head that the rest of us are not aware of?

I also find it a little pathetic that you're so devoted to upholding the image of a company that has made millions of dollars selling a product that forces users to conform to its design, instead of conforming the product to its users. Apple's greatest success is in lifestyle marketing, not in creating a superior product. If you're going to go out of your way to congratulate them, congratulate them for convincing so many people that its more important for a phone/computer to make them feel good about t ...

Who are you talking to? And what are you babbling about?
 
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