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(Major League Baseball)   Cole Hamels agrees to stay with the Phillies, Yankees of the NL, just without the storied history, potent lineup, and the whole winning thing   (mlb.mlb.com) divider line 47
    More: Interesting, Cole Hamels, Yankees, Phillies, First-Year Player Draft, Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia, free agent, left-handed  
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234 clicks; posted to Sports » on 25 Jul 2012 at 1:12 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-25 01:15:49 PM
They have three starting pitchers that make $20 mil a year now. That is absolutely insane.
 
2012-07-25 01:16:37 PM
They've committed $130 million to just nine players in 2013. That is absolutely insane.
 
2012-07-25 01:18:05 PM
That is a huge contract... Weaver has to be second guessing what he signed to play in SoCal.

But if you break down Cole's contract, and assume that he makes 32 starts... and if he was to throw 9 innings in each start... that equates to 83K per inning. Or roughly 27K per out.

Although, my math may be terribly off.
 
2012-07-25 01:23:35 PM
...just without the storied history, potent lineup, and the whole winning thing

Or the rampant steroid use.
 
2012-07-25 01:24:43 PM
Um...why?

Does the acquisition of Hanley Ramirez somehow undermine the Dodgers' ability to grossly overpay for the "hometown" Cole Hamels this offseason?
 
2012-07-25 01:33:46 PM
Actually subby, The Phillies are quicking becoming the Cubs of the NL East. An aging roster full of boated contacts that isn't going to win anything in the near future.

The Ryan Howard deal is going to go down as the worst contract of all time. Hamels is good, don't get me wrong, but the Phillies wuld have been smart to let him walk.
 
2012-07-25 01:35:27 PM
They've won the NL East five years running. Yeah, what a bunch of losers.
 
2012-07-25 01:39:28 PM

StrandedInAZ: They've won the NL East five years running. Yeah, what a bunch of losers.


..and dead last in it right now, and have been all season. If how many times they've won in the past, or in a row mattered, then we may as well crown the Braves.
 
2012-07-25 01:43:27 PM

StrandedInAZ: They've won the NL East five years running. Yeah, what a bunch of losers.


I'm sure that's relevant to this contract, this season, and the future of the Phillies somehow, I'm just not sure how.
 
2012-07-25 01:43:31 PM
Whole camels?
 
2012-07-25 01:45:14 PM
...just without the storied history, potent lineup, and the whole winning thing

Yeah, the Yankees just won the WS in '09. The Phillies haven't won one since all the way back '08.

/ subby am a moron methinks
 
2012-07-25 01:47:54 PM

Orange Rhyming Dictionary: The Ryan Howard deal is going to go down as the worst contract of all time.


I have to keep reminding myself that, despite the fact that he got extended over 2 years ago, the contract only started *THIS YEAR*. Urgh.

I like Howard, too; there are certainly far worse options at 1B, in terms of power and presence. (For example, John Mayberry Jr, Ty Wigginton, etc) But that's still vastly overpaying him for far too long.
 
2012-07-25 01:48:59 PM

Orange Rhyming Dictionary:
The Ryan Howard deal is going to go down as the worst contract of all time. Hamels is good, don't get me wrong, but the Phillies wuld have been smart to let him walk.


I don't think that's even possible; Mike Hampton (COL), Kei Igawa (NYY), Carl Pavano (NYY), Gary Matthews (LAA) are just some off the top of my head that were truly atrocious contracts. If Howard is league average for the length of his contract, he'd have been better than those guys I listed. I'm sure I could give you another dozen if I looked into it (Soriano with the Cubs, probably, for one).
 
2012-07-25 01:49:34 PM

The Bestest: StrandedInAZ: They've won the NL East five years running. Yeah, what a bunch of losers.

..and dead last in it right now, and have been all season. If how many times they've won in the past, or in a row mattered, then we may as well crown the Braves.


I would blame injuries for most of that (and the putrid bullpen). They seem to think that their window with this team isn't closed just yet, so I expect them to compete again next season. I also don't think they'll finish last in the division.
 
2012-07-25 01:50:47 PM

Yanks_RSJ: I'm sure that's relevant to this contract, this season, and the future of the Phillies somehow, I'm just not sure how.


Oh, beware. Shane Victorino is on the trading block. A MASSIVE haul I'm sure the Phillies will get in return.

Oh, wait. Cincinnati wouldn't even part with a reliever for him.
 
2012-07-25 01:53:18 PM
 
2012-07-25 01:53:42 PM
After seeing even rock solid starters like Roy Halliday, Cliff Lee and Tim Linsecum struggle this year, I'm surprised anyone would give pitchers long term deals anymore. Zito, Pavano, Hampton, Zambrano, Schmidt, Brown, Dreifort, Westbrook etc. pitchers should be given 3 year deals tops.
 
2012-07-25 01:54:13 PM
Damn, don't know how I f'd up that post.
 
2012-07-25 02:00:57 PM
The Phillies have sold out 254 home games in a row. Thats how they pay for talent.

try that in your hometown, cuz.
 
2012-07-25 02:01:50 PM

johnny_stingray: The Phillies have sold out 254 home games in a row. Thats how they pay for talent.

try that in your hometown, cuz.


"sold out". Baseball sellouts are bullshiat. I was at a game this spring that was probably 2/3 full.
 
2012-07-25 02:05:15 PM
This actually makes me feel good to be a Buccos fan.
 
2012-07-25 02:09:02 PM
Phillies TV rights are up for renewal next year. They're going to get a boatload of bucks from Comcast most likely.

Who cares how much they spend or 'over spend'. It's their money. There's no cap. There's no such thing as a bad contract in the MLB if you're willing to spend.
 
2012-07-25 02:17:27 PM

professorkowalski: This actually makes me feel good to be a Buccos fan.


Ditto, I'll take Wandy for 3 minor leaguers and be happy. Pleasantly surprised that the Pirates are being smart on field and in the front office now.
 
2012-07-25 02:17:27 PM

Droog8912: Orange Rhyming Dictionary:
The Ryan Howard deal is going to go down as the worst contract of all time. Hamels is good, don't get me wrong, but the Phillies wuld have been smart to let him walk.

I don't think that's even possible; Mike Hampton (COL), Kei Igawa (NYY), Carl Pavano (NYY), Gary Matthews (LAA) are just some off the top of my head that were truly atrocious contracts. If Howard is league average for the length of his contract, he'd have been better than those guys I listed. I'm sure I could give you another dozen if I looked into it (Soriano with the Cubs, probably, for one).


That's why the contract sucks so bad. He simply won't be. He's a fat, slow player who plays a corner position. He HAS to keep hitting. He won't. Plus, as Joe_diGriz stated above, the contract has yet to even kick in.
 
2012-07-25 02:22:30 PM

upndn: professorkowalski: This actually makes me feel good to be a Buccos fan.

Ditto, I'll take Wandy for 3 minor leaguers and be happy. Pleasantly surprised that the Pirates are being smart on field and in the front office now.


I'm not the biggest fan of the Wandy deal, even though I understand why they did it. Getting Houston to cover most of his salary was smart.

I just didn't like giving up two minor league pitchers who could have been useful, in the bullpen, in the future.

The way Cutch is playing, how relatively cheap they signed him for, that now looks like a complete coup.
 
2012-07-25 02:31:26 PM

MugzyBrown: Who cares how much they spend or 'over spend'. It's their money. There's no cap. There's no such thing as a bad contract in the MLB if you're willing to spend.


The new luxury tax rules are far more oppressive than previous. The bigger problem is this year; they have to dump enough salary before the end of the year to not get hit with it, because they're more-than-likely going to exceed it next year. And then the penalty for exceeding the tax threshold in consecutive years is prohibitive. Having said that, the tax cutoff goes up substantially in 2014, and the tax penalty resets as soon as a team stays under, so going over it next year won't be as bad by itself.

Frankly, the Phils screwed themselves over in this deal by a) signing Lee to that contract last year; b) pretty much ignoring Cole through the offseason as they (over) spent everywhere else, especially Pabelbon; c) assuming that he would actually take the Jared Weaver super-discount; and d) not immediately offering him the same amount (maybe a tiny bit more) as Cain, once that deal was announced. I figure that they cost themselves a year and $15-20 million by waiting until now.
 
2012-07-25 02:32:06 PM

Orange Rhyming Dictionary: That's why the contract sucks so bad. He simply won't be. He's a fat, slow player who plays a corner position. He HAS to keep hitting. He won't. Plus, as Joe_diGriz stated above, the contract has yet to even kick in.


The contract started this year. So the year of it he should have been the best, he missed, mostly. But at least it's one less year on the books.

I don't think anyone could have expected Utley to secretly have 50 year old knees though. That's a big blow.
 
2012-07-25 02:33:18 PM

Joe_diGriz: The new luxury tax rules are far more oppressive than previous


So?

No limit. They can spend at will.
 
2012-07-25 02:37:03 PM

professorkowalski: upndn: professorkowalski: This actually makes me feel good to be a Buccos fan.

Ditto, I'll take Wandy for 3 minor leaguers and be happy. Pleasantly surprised that the Pirates are being smart on field and in the front office now.

I'm not the biggest fan of the Wandy deal, even though I understand why they did it. Getting Houston to cover most of his salary was smart.

I just didn't like giving up two minor league pitchers who could have been useful, in the bullpen, in the future.

The way Cutch is playing, how relatively cheap they signed him for, that now looks like a complete coup.


Absolutely on Cutch, just love watching him and the team play this year. Also, been enjoying following the front office. It's nice to wonder how they're going to win instead of how and who they're going to lose.
 
2012-07-25 02:43:08 PM

upndn: professorkowalski: upndn: professorkowalski: This actually makes me feel good to be a Buccos fan.

Ditto, I'll take Wandy for 3 minor leaguers and be happy. Pleasantly surprised that the Pirates are being smart on field and in the front office now.

I'm not the biggest fan of the Wandy deal, even though I understand why they did it. Getting Houston to cover most of his salary was smart.

I just didn't like giving up two minor league pitchers who could have been useful, in the bullpen, in the future.

The way Cutch is playing, how relatively cheap they signed him for, that now looks like a complete coup.

Absolutely on Cutch, just love watching him and the team play this year. Also, been enjoying following the front office. It's nice to wonder how they're going to win instead of how and who they're going to lose.


It was nice to see them balk at the offers on the table for Jameson Taillon. You don't trade a 19 yo, with 3 plus pitches and No. 1 potential.

In the past they would have.
 
2012-07-25 02:48:43 PM

MugzyBrown: Joe_diGriz: The new luxury tax rules are far more oppressive than previous

So?

No limit. They can spend at will.


I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that it will cause some interesting financial choices now, because there's absolutely no way that they're going to pay that luxury tax two years in a row. I don't think they overpaid for Hamels, although that 6th guaranteed year might hurt.
 
2012-07-25 02:55:28 PM

Joe_diGriz: MugzyBrown: Joe_diGriz: The new luxury tax rules are far more oppressive than previous

So?

No limit. They can spend at will.

I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that it will cause some interesting financial choices now, because there's absolutely no way that they're going to pay that luxury tax two years in a row. I don't think they overpaid for Hamels, although that 6th guaranteed year might hurt.


I'm just happy that the Phillies are spending what they are right now and that a sub-.500 record is a disappointment (injuries and all) instead of expected. I'm also hoping they can trade Cliff Lee, as I suspect he's no longer taking certain supplements that were...enhancing his...performance.
 
2012-07-25 03:04:47 PM

you have pee hands: johnny_stingray: The Phillies have sold out 254 home games in a row. Thats how they pay for talent.

try that in your hometown, cuz.

"sold out". Baseball sellouts are bullshiat. I was at a game this spring that was probably 2/3 full.


Just because the seats were empty doesn't mean that no one paid for the ticket.
 
2012-07-25 03:07:20 PM

Orange Rhyming Dictionary:
That's why the contract sucks so bad. He simply won't be. He's a fat, slow player who plays a corner position. He HAS to keep hitting. He won't. Plus, as Joe_diGriz stated above, the contract has yet to even kick in.


Let me rephrase: if Howard is league average, he'll be VASTLY SUPERIOR to those guys mentioned. Carl Pavano pitched 145.2 innings and Igawa 71.2, all if which were terrible. Gary Matthews is currently sucking as the 4th outfielder on the Mets after being traded for an empty sack that could have held beans but didn't; his time in Anaheim had an OPS of .742, .675, and .697. Mike Hampton was a mix between terrible and slightly above league average and is generally the punchline for bad contracts in any joke.

While Howard will likely end up as an albatross at the end, just like Pujols, ARod, Fielder, Giambi, etc., he has some serious sucking in his future if he is to take the reins of the "worst contract ever".
 
2012-07-25 03:12:17 PM

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: Just because the seats were empty doesn't mean that no one paid for the ticket.


It's one thing if there are seats empty here and there because people didn't make it to the game. It's another thing if you can still buy tickets at the booth after the first pitch has been thrown and the 30X (3rd deck in right) section is almost completely empty with probably fewer than 30,000 people in the stadium - calling that a sellout is shady accounting.
 
2012-07-25 03:15:31 PM

Droog8912: While Howard will likely end up as an albatross at the end, just like Pujols, ARod, Fielder, Giambi, etc., he has some serious sucking in his future if he is to take the reins of the "worst contract ever".


Howard's already an albatross and it's the first year of the deal. The A-Rod extension is pretty ridiculously bad though.

13:$28M, 14:$25M, 15:$21M, 16:$20M, 17:$20M

How old will he be in 2017? 43 or 44?
 
2012-07-25 03:24:39 PM
EyeballKid:...just without the storied history, potent lineup, and the whole winning thing

Or the rampant steroid use.


Really?
 
2012-07-25 03:40:18 PM
I think the Howard contract though isn't just "for him". They overpayed but did it to show that this particular owner is going to take care of his players if you go all-in. He overpayed Howard to keep everyone else focused on playing in Philly. This particular team will have probably a 2-3 year run after this season, then bottom out and rebuild. As long as the same guy runs the show though, he can convince big names to come and homegrown to stay.

Also, he is taking New York's approach over Pittsburgh. He's willing to blow money knowing that having a lot of higher paid talent will result in a terrible year once and while BUT you will make the playoffs more often then not. Pittsburgh's strategy has been build a beautiful ballpark and spend so little that you are almost guaranteed to make money from the family's that just want to see the stadium. If you luck into a winning season every 20 years, so be it.
 
2012-07-25 03:47:38 PM
Hey we have a very storied history.

Just because it involves a lot of losing doesn't mean it isn't storied.
 
2012-07-25 03:48:18 PM

azmoviez: EyeballKid:...just without the storied history, potent lineup, and the whole winning thing

Or the rampant steroid use.

Really?


To be fair, he did say "rampant". Also, I always thought Nails was considered to be a Met while Kruk and Drunkin' Darren Daulton were considered the major Phillies (thought I liked Lenny as a Philly). Then again, Nails is probably more remembered as a shady businessman ready to get nailed in PMITA prison.

Now of the steroid era busts, I do recall JC Romero (sp?) was using I think. It pissed me off because the 08 team was set to be the first team with no members busted for roids in awhile.
 
2012-07-25 03:49:18 PM

Jjaro: Hey we have a very storied history.

Just because it involves a lot of losing doesn't mean it isn't storied.


Not just a lot of losing. I believe the Phillies have lost more contests of any sort than any group or organization in history.
 
2012-07-25 03:52:08 PM

azmoviez: EyeballKid:...just without the storied history, potent lineup, and the whole winning thing

Or the rampant steroid use.

Really?


Phillies Yankees

Lenny Dykstra Jason Giambi
Gary Sheffield
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Kevin Brown
Chuck Knoblaugh



Enough! Enough! Quit running up the score!
 
2012-07-25 04:08:02 PM
EyeballKid :
Really?

Phillies Yankees


I'm surprised you didn't throw in ARod. I don't doubt that the Yankees had plenty on the Mitchell Report and the leaked test, but don't pretend that Dykestra was somehow an isolated case in that clubhouse. Most accounts have the Oakland 88 and Phillies 93 clubhouses as the epicenter of the entire era.
 
2012-07-25 04:11:58 PM

Wellon Dowd: Jjaro: Hey we have a very storied history.

Just because it involves a lot of losing doesn't mean it isn't storied.

Not just a lot of losing. I believe the Phillies have lost more contests of any sort than any group or organization in history.


Well a lot of that has to do with having a history dating to the 19th century. That alone pretty much knocks out most teams from the other 3 sports.
 
2012-07-26 12:29:17 AM

Yanks_RSJ: StrandedInAZ: They've won the NL East five years running. Yeah, what a bunch of losers.

I'm sure that's relevant to this contract, this season, and the future of the Phillies somehow, I'm just not sure how.


Wait. What a team has done in the past doesn't matter? Silly me. Why would what's happened in the past, with the same core group of guys, have any relevance? Someone inform my friends who are Yankee fans, because I don't think they got that memo.

Oh, I'm supposed to quit on the team I've supported my entire freaking life because they're having a rough season? Silly me! I had no idea. I don't write off my team in July. I guess I must be one of those terribly Philadelphia fans, right?

For the record, I'd rather have my team lose and spend money in an attempt to be competitive than have them lose and make no effort whatsoever to sign and retain top players. Since I've followed them for 30+ years, I've had enough of that. .

We can revisit this in September. They may not win the division, but I fully expect them to go on enough of a run to get a wildcard spot.
 
2012-07-26 02:28:49 AM

StrandedInAZ: They've won the NL East five years running. Yeah, what a bunch of losers.


also the losingest franchise of all time
 
2012-07-26 09:29:59 AM

KrmtDfrog: also the losingest franchise of all time


The Phillies were really bad in the 1930s and 1940s. This is very important because
 
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