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(Government Executive)   Study shows that armchair economists who claim to have proven a huge gap between public and private sector pay need to redo their Grade 10   (govexec.com) divider line 57
    More: Fail, personnel management, National Treasury Employees Union, AEI, government oversight, Office of Personnel Management, Current Population Survey, public sector, wage gap  
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1827 clicks; posted to Politics » on 25 Jul 2012 at 9:21 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-25 09:07:16 AM  
i232.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-25 09:29:06 AM  
We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.
 
2012-07-25 09:32:03 AM  

Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.


And since all taxes are theft, every government employee is a criminal.
 
2012-07-25 09:32:25 AM  
Did subby actually read the article?
 
2012-07-25 09:32:55 AM  

Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.


And furthermore, they don't deserve their contractually-promised pensions, either. It's not my fault that every level of government has underfunded pensions for decades.
 
2012-07-25 09:36:21 AM  
Even providing them pension under contract instead of some pay means that taxpayers are giving them free stuff and is Socialism. We need to retroactively take that away but not replace the pay.
 
2012-07-25 09:38:10 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.

And furthermore, they don't deserve their contractually-promised pensions, either. It's not my fault that every level of government has underfunded pensions for decades.


Contracts with the government are always bad and do not have to be honored, unless they are non-competitive DOD contracts that funnel billions into the military industrial complex......because freedom, GOP, and apple pie.
 
2012-07-25 09:40:37 AM  
Government workers are public servants who sacrifice the higher pay and benefits they would be able to get in the private sector out of a sense of altruism and a need to serve the greater good. This applies to all levels, including those in higher political offices.
 
2012-07-25 09:47:33 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.

And since all taxes are theft, every government employee is a criminal.


Hell yes! We should round them all up and put on a giant group show trial that ends with them being convicted of high treason and hung at the gallows.
 
2012-07-25 09:50:43 AM  

Serious Black: Philip Francis Queeg: Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.

And since all taxes are theft, every government employee is a criminal.

Hell yes! We should round them all up and put on a giant group show trial that ends with them being convicted of high treason and hung at the gallows.


Needless to say the trial should not be run by the jack booted thugs of the government, but by a private, for profit, entity as the Founders clearly intended.
 
2012-07-25 09:53:28 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.

And furthermore, they don't deserve their contractually-promised pensions, either. It's not my fault that every level of government has underfunded pensions for decades.


Yes, local government should go bankrupt because liberal vote retards into office who over promise benefits.
 
2012-07-25 09:54:04 AM  

farkityfarker: Government workers are public servants who sacrifice the higher pay and benefits they would be able to get in the private sector out of a sense of altruism and a need to serve the greater good. This applies to all levels, including those in higher political offices.


I did it for job security and a pension. The writing was on the wall and the private sector was going to get farked. I found myself in a public sector job with a path for advancement after being unemployed for a couple months after 9/11 and decided to weather out the Bush presidency doing computer support for New York State.

I do like helping people, and that is what I do all day so I guess you could argue that there is an altruistic aspect of it, but I work for a paycheck and the golden handcuffs of a pension.

Plus as a bonus anyone can look up how much money I make online. Link
 
2012-07-25 10:02:13 AM  

ChimpMitten: farkityfarker: Government workers are public servants who sacrifice the higher pay and benefits they would be able to get in the private sector out of a sense of altruism and a need to serve the greater good. This applies to all levels, including those in higher political offices.

I did it for job security and a pension. The writing was on the wall and the private sector was going to get farked. I found myself in a public sector job with a path for advancement after being unemployed for a couple months after 9/11 and decided to weather out the Bush presidency doing computer support for New York State.

I do like helping people, and that is what I do all day so I guess you could argue that there is an altruistic aspect of it, but I work for a paycheck and the golden handcuffs of a pension.

Plus as a bonus anyone can look up how much money I make online. Link


My post was sarcastic.

And no one cares how much you make, regardless of your curious need to tell us.
 
2012-07-25 10:03:15 AM  
Yeah, that's life in Federal government. Easy hours, next to no work, and benefits up the wazoo.

/lights cigar with $100 $5 bill
 
2012-07-25 10:05:21 AM  
During my last job search I applied and interviewed for a handful of fed, state and public university positions.
ALL of them, and I mean ALL of them had lower pay than the private sector counterparts.
Between 10-40% lower.
Equalizing the work, health benefits, transportation discounts, work experience needed, and anything else i could think of the only thing the government jobs had going for them was more stability. I'm more likely to get laid off or have a company collapse under me in the private sector than the gov.

Yeah i'm not making the six figures so i can't speak to that level of wages, but in my field you are taking a hit working for a government or publicly funded organization.
 
2012-07-25 10:07:45 AM  

MyRandomName: Yes, local government should go bankrupt because liberal vote retards into office who over promise benefits.


You're not even trying to write sentences anymore. Where's the passion? Where's the commitment to your craft?
 
2012-07-25 10:09:06 AM  
This approach does not take into account "the personal attributes of the workers currently filling the jobs,"

Really, thats what youre going with then?
 
2012-07-25 10:10:22 AM  
"Grade 10?" Canadian-like typing detected.
 
2012-07-25 10:10:37 AM  

ChimpMitten: farkityfarker: Government workers are public servants who sacrifice the higher pay and benefits they would be able to get in the private sector out of a sense of altruism and a need to serve the greater good. This applies to all levels, including those in higher political offices.

I did it for job security and a pension. The writing was on the wall and the private sector was going to get farked. I found myself in a public sector job with a path for advancement after being unemployed for a couple months after 9/11 and decided to weather out the Bush presidency doing computer support for New York State.

I do like helping people, and that is what I do all day so I guess you could argue that there is an altruistic aspect of it, but I work for a paycheck and the golden handcuffs of a pension.

Plus as a bonus anyone can look up how much money I make online. Link


I have decided that I want to be a stationary engineer.
 
2012-07-25 10:14:35 AM  

Epicedion: "Grade 10?" Canadian-like typing detected.


I have noticed that a lot of educators do that as well. I assume that subby is either Canadian, a teacher or from the north east. Or some sort of combination of the three.
 
2012-07-25 10:15:59 AM  

ChimpMitten: farkityfarker: Government workers are public servants who sacrifice the higher pay and benefits they would be able to get in the private sector out of a sense of altruism and a need to serve the greater good. This applies to all levels, including those in higher political offices.

I did it for job security and a pension. The writing was on the wall and the private sector was going to get farked. I found myself in a public sector job with a path for advancement after being unemployed for a couple months after 9/11 and decided to weather out the Bush presidency doing computer support for New York State.

I do like helping people, and that is what I do all day so I guess you could argue that there is an altruistic aspect of it, but I work for a paycheck and the golden handcuffs of a pension.

Plus as a bonus anyone can look up how much money I make online. Link


That's a sweet website. I wish my state had that.
The best we have is our university and community college system has public salary data.

/Hmmm, my partner would only make 5% more in NY than here.
 
2012-07-25 10:17:49 AM  

farkityfarker: ChimpMitten: farkityfarker: Government workers are public servants who sacrifice the higher pay and benefits they would be able to get in the private sector out of a sense of altruism and a need to serve the greater good. This applies to all levels, including those in higher political offices.

I did it for job security and a pension. The writing was on the wall and the private sector was going to get farked. I found myself in a public sector job with a path for advancement after being unemployed for a couple months after 9/11 and decided to weather out the Bush presidency doing computer support for New York State.

I do like helping people, and that is what I do all day so I guess you could argue that there is an altruistic aspect of it, but I work for a paycheck and the golden handcuffs of a pension.

Plus as a bonus anyone can look up how much money I make online. Link

My post was sarcastic.

And no one cares how much you make, regardless of your curious need to tell us.


Well, my name isn't actually ChimpMitten so you can't really look up my salary, but people are apparently curious about public sector pay since there is a website devoted to it and it seemed to be pertinent to the topic at hand.

I guess I need to get my sarcasm and asshole detectors recalibrated.
 
2012-07-25 10:25:18 AM  
OPM's report from 2011 found that, on average, federal workers' pay was lower than nonfederal workers' -- including private, state and local workers -- by 24 percent, with some variations based on locality.

The other five reports, three of which came from right-wing think tanks, determined the inverse was true:


Glad we got that straightened out.
 
2012-07-25 10:31:11 AM  

Krymson Tyde:


Done I'm one.
 
2012-07-25 10:37:20 AM  

ChimpMitten: farkityfarker: Government workers are public servants who sacrifice the higher pay and benefits they would be able to get in the private sector out of a sense of altruism and a need to serve the greater good. This applies to all levels, including those in higher political offices.

I did it for job security and a pension. The writing was on the wall and the private sector was going to get farked. I found myself in a public sector job with a path for advancement after being unemployed for a couple months after 9/11 and decided to weather out the Bush presidency doing computer support for New York State.

I do like helping people, and that is what I do all day so I guess you could argue that there is an altruistic aspect of it, but I work for a paycheck and the golden handcuffs of a pension.

Plus as a bonus anyone can look up how much money I make online. Link


↑↑↑↑↑↑↑THIS↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

//Plus I'm a lazy, shiftless bastard.
 
2012-07-25 10:38:23 AM  
I like how all the conservative groups based government pay being higher because it pays minorities and women an equal amount to white men.
 
2012-07-25 10:40:48 AM  

ChimpMitten: farkityfarker: ChimpMitten: farkityfarker: Government workers are public servants who sacrifice the higher pay and benefits they would be able to get in the private sector out of a sense of altruism and a need to serve the greater good. This applies to all levels, including those in higher political offices.

I did it for job security and a pension. The writing was on the wall and the private sector was going to get farked. I found myself in a public sector job with a path for advancement after being unemployed for a couple months after 9/11 and decided to weather out the Bush presidency doing computer support for New York State.

I do like helping people, and that is what I do all day so I guess you could argue that there is an altruistic aspect of it, but I work for a paycheck and the golden handcuffs of a pension.

Plus as a bonus anyone can look up how much money I make online. Link

My post was sarcastic.

And no one cares how much you make, regardless of your curious need to tell us.

Well, my name isn't actually ChimpMitten so you can't really look up my salary, but people are apparently curious about public sector pay since there is a website devoted to it and it seemed to be pertinent to the topic at hand.

I guess I need to get my sarcasm and asshole detectors recalibrated.


You should change your name, because no matter what it is, ChimpMitten would be more awesome.
 
2012-07-25 10:47:14 AM  

MyRandomName: Dwight_Yeast: Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.

And furthermore, they don't deserve their contractually-promised pensions, either. It's not my fault that every level of government has underfunded pensions for decades.

Yes, local government should go bankrupt because liberal vote retards into office who over promise benefits.


And this supurb example of a lack of reading comprehension is why you're labeled as a top-tier dumbass/troll.
 
2012-07-25 10:49:04 AM  

LeftOfLiberal: I like how all the conservative groups based government pay being higher because it pays minorities and women an equal amount to white men.


I was just coming here to say that after reading the article.

What kind of crap study would use someone's gender/ethnicity to determine whether pay was equal between public and private workers?
 
2012-07-25 11:00:17 AM  

Katie98_KT: LeftOfLiberal: I like how all the conservative groups based government pay being higher because it pays minorities and women an equal amount to white men.

I was just coming here to say that after reading the article.

What kind of crap study would use someone's gender/ethnicity to determine whether pay was equal between public and private workers?


aren't women paid less than men on average? Doesn't it make sense to compare public sector women to private sector women if you're trying to figure the difference between public and private sector pay for similar occupations? To do otherwise would invite a well documented bias into the calculation

CBO does this. I don't think CBO stands for Conservative Boys Only
 
2012-07-25 11:01:30 AM  
Does anyone know whether or not they are factoring in post-retirement government pensions as part of compensation?
 
2012-07-25 11:04:29 AM  

Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.


That is why we need to reduce employee head count at the IRS, Home Land Security, FBI, CIA, NSA, and all military branches by 60%, get rid of all those unnecessary lazy shiftless bastards that are freeloading on the productive members of society.
 
2012-07-25 11:05:23 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.

And furthermore, they don't deserve their contractually-promised pensions, either. It's not my fault that every level of government has underfunded pensions for decades.


Umm...actually as a citizen and a tax payer it is your fault and everybody else.
 
2012-07-25 11:05:38 AM  

skullkrusher: Katie98_KT: LeftOfLiberal: I like how all the conservative groups based government pay being higher because it pays minorities and women an equal amount to white men.

I was just coming here to say that after reading the article.

What kind of crap study would use someone's gender/ethnicity to determine whether pay was equal between public and private workers?

aren't women paid less than men on average? Doesn't it make sense to compare public sector women to private sector women if you're trying to figure the difference between public and private sector pay for similar occupations? To do otherwise would invite a well documented bias into the calculation

CBO does this. I don't think CBO stands for Conservative Boys Only


Sure, it's fair to take it into account, but you can't complain about the study coming back saying that women in the public sector are paid more than women in the private sector when illegal discrimination is the cause of that difference.
 
2012-07-25 11:08:06 AM  

Dwight_Yeast: Serious Black: We all know that government employees are all lazy, shiftless bastards that freeload on the productive members of society. That makes these studies irrelevant because any level of pay is too much and akin to burning a big pile of money.

And furthermore, they don't deserve their contractually-promised pensions, either. It's not my fault that every level of government has underfunded pensions for decades.


Bah, you don't deserve your low, low tax rates. It's not my fault that every level of government has deficit financed for decades.
 
2012-07-25 11:09:04 AM  

Serious Black: Sure, it's fair to take it into account, but you can't complain about the study coming back saying that women in the public sector are paid more than women in the private sector when illegal discrimination is the cause of that difference.


it invalidates the point the think tanks studies are trying to make if that is the case and the cause of the difference. I suppose a separate study would have to compare how public sector women fare vs public sector men in the same positions to control for discriminatory bias as such exists
 
2012-07-25 11:10:12 AM  

middle class hole: Does anyone know whether or not they are factoring in post-retirement government pensions as part of compensation?


I guess it would depend on the study, but the feds haven't had pensions since 1984, so that's not really something accurate to take into account for many workers.
 
2012-07-25 11:10:56 AM  
I do love the promoted article: "Who's to Blame if We Go Over the Fiscal Cliff?" I especially love how we've just said "fark it...brace for impact" instead of doing something to stop the bus...
 
2012-07-25 11:12:46 AM  

KarmicDisaster: Even providing them pension under contract instead of some pay means that taxpayers are giving them free stuff and is Socialism. We need to retroactively take that away but not replace the pay.


Yes, it's gotten to the point where, instead of asking for everything back that our corporate masters have taken away, we ask that other people get those things taken away as well. We are truly a nation of sociopaths.
 
2012-07-25 11:13:07 AM  

Katie98_KT: middle class hole: Does anyone know whether or not they are factoring in post-retirement government pensions as part of compensation?

I guess it would depend on the study, but the feds haven't had pensions since 1984, so that's not really something accurate to take into account for many workers.


sorry, went into effect 1987, though people who were part of the transition period had the option of choosing between the two systems - not sure exactly what those years are.
 
2012-07-25 11:13:21 AM  
All I know is that a dope trailer is no place for a kitty.
 
2012-07-25 11:22:25 AM  

skullkrusher: Katie98_KT: LeftOfLiberal: I like how all the conservative groups based government pay being higher because it pays minorities and women an equal amount to white men.

I was just coming here to say that after reading the article.

What kind of crap study would use someone's gender/ethnicity to determine whether pay was equal between public and private workers?

aren't women paid less than men on average? Doesn't it make sense to compare public sector women to private sector women if you're trying to figure the difference between public and private sector pay for similar occupations? To do otherwise would invite a well documented bias into the calculation

CBO does this. I don't think CBO stands for Conservative Boys Only


I'm going to try to answer this as honestly and openly, because I can't tell if you're serious or not.

Studies have shown that the gender and ethnicity bias is much less in the public sector than the private sector. Aka, public sector female accounts and public sector male accounts are paid about the same (or closer to the same) than private sector female accounts v. private sector male accountants.

EXAMPLE (just to show what I'm saying, no data on this):
Public sector female: $40k
Public sector male: $45k
Private sector female: $30k
Private Sector male: $50k

Also, the government has a higher than average number of women and ethnicities, I *think* especially in white collar professions.

So. In a study that takes someone ethnicity and gender into account, you're re-introducing what most people would consider inproper/unfair pay gaps.

Aka- It is not fair to say that public sector accountants are paid more than private sector accountants simply because the federal government ISN'T biased against female accountants by paying them less. There is no reason to introduce someone's gender into a study comparing private to public sector.
On top of that, you're further biasing the study because out of 10 private sector accountants, 8 are male, but in the public sector, 7 are male. (again, made up numbers to illustrate the point).
 
2012-07-25 11:26:20 AM  

Katie98_KT: Katie98_KT: middle class hole: Does anyone know whether or not they are factoring in post-retirement government pensions as part of compensation?

I guess it would depend on the study, but the feds haven't had pensions since 1984, so that's not really something accurate to take into account for many workers.

sorry, went into effect 1987, though people who were part of the transition period had the option of choosing between the two systems - not sure exactly what those years are.


I think FERS has a pension aspect to it as well

Link
 
2012-07-25 11:29:19 AM  

Katie98_KT: I'm going to try to answer this as honestly and openly, because I can't tell if you're serious or not.


completely serious

Katie98_KT: Studies have shown that the gender and ethnicity bias is much less in the public sector than the private sector. Aka, public sector female accounts and public sector male accounts are paid about the same (or closer to the same) than private sector female accounts v. private sector male accountants.


if there is no gender or racial pay gap in public service employment then it should not be considered. If there is, it should be taken into account. If it exists but to a lesser degree than the private sector, that should also be factored in but to ignore it in this case would detract from the validity of the study on private vs public pay. That's all I was saying.
 
2012-07-25 11:34:20 AM  

skullkrusher: Katie98_KT: Katie98_KT: middle class hole: Does anyone know whether or not they are factoring in post-retirement government pensions as part of compensation?

I guess it would depend on the study, but the feds haven't had pensions since 1984, so that's not really something accurate to take into account for many workers.

sorry, went into effect 1987, though people who were part of the transition period had the option of choosing between the two systems - not sure exactly what those years are.

I think FERS has a pension aspect to it as well

Link


FERS does have a pension. In fact, it's probably the best-run pension fund in the entire country since it is legally prohibited from having an unfunded liability and has netted a surplus over the last 15 years. Abolishing FERS like some in the GOP want would actually make the unfunded liability issue of all the federal government's pensions even worse.
 
2012-07-25 11:35:11 AM  

Serious Black: skullkrusher: Katie98_KT: Katie98_KT: middle class hole: Does anyone know whether or not they are factoring in post-retirement government pensions as part of compensation?

I guess it would depend on the study, but the feds haven't had pensions since 1984, so that's not really something accurate to take into account for many workers.

sorry, went into effect 1987, though people who were part of the transition period had the option of choosing between the two systems - not sure exactly what those years are.

I think FERS has a pension aspect to it as well

Link

FERS does have a pension. In fact, it's probably the best-run pension fund in the entire country since it is legally prohibited from having an unfunded liability and has netted a surplus over the last 15 years. Abolishing FERS like some in the GOP want would actually make the unfunded liability issue of all the federal government's pensions even worse.


so back to the question of whether this was taken into account. No idea
 
2012-07-25 11:39:22 AM  

skullkrusher: Serious Black: skullkrusher: Katie98_KT: Katie98_KT: middle class hole: Does anyone know whether or not they are factoring in post-retirement government pensions as part of compensation?

I guess it would depend on the study, but the feds haven't had pensions since 1984, so that's not really something accurate to take into account for many workers.

sorry, went into effect 1987, though people who were part of the transition period had the option of choosing between the two systems - not sure exactly what those years are.

I think FERS has a pension aspect to it as well

Link

FERS does have a pension. In fact, it's probably the best-run pension fund in the entire country since it is legally prohibited from having an unfunded liability and has netted a surplus over the last 15 years. Abolishing FERS like some in the GOP want would actually make the unfunded liability issue of all the federal government's pensions even worse.

so back to the question of whether this was taken into account. No idea


In the specific studies cited, I have no idea. The studies I have seen comparing private sector to public sector generally do account for benefits like deferred compensation through pensions and retirement account contributions. The consensus I've found is that lower-level employees often do better in the public sector but that higher-level employees do worse, especially when you get into positions requiring professional degrees like doctors or lawyers.
 
2012-07-25 11:45:33 AM  

Serious Black: In the specific studies cited, I have no idea. The studies I have seen comparing private sector to public sector generally do account for benefits like deferred compensation through pensions and retirement account contributions. The consensus I've found is that lower-level employees often do better in the public sector but that higher-level employees do worse, especially when you get into positions requiring professional degrees like doctors or lawyers.


that's sort of what I'd have expected
 
2012-07-25 11:59:23 AM  

skullkrusher: Katie98_KT: I'm going to try to answer this as honestly and openly, because I can't tell if you're serious or not.

completely serious

Katie98_KT: Studies have shown that the gender and ethnicity bias is much less in the public sector than the private sector. Aka, public sector female accounts and public sector male accounts are paid about the same (or closer to the same) than private sector female accounts v. private sector male accountants.

if there is no gender or racial pay gap in public service employment then it should not be considered. If there is, it should be taken into account. If it exists but to a lesser degree than the private sector, that should also be factored in but to ignore it in this case would detract from the validity of the study on private vs public pay. That's all I was saying.


It would be valid to include it if they're controlling for the fact that government has less of a pay gap. What they're doing according to the article is using the pay gap to prove that government workers are paid more.

instead of comparing an accountant with a masters degree in the public sector to an accountant with a masters degree in the private sector, they're comparing a female accountant with a masters degree (in both), when we KNOW that the female accountant in the private sector is paid less because of a unfair pay disparity.
 
2012-07-25 12:08:11 PM  

skullkrusher: Katie98_KT: Katie98_KT: middle class hole: Does anyone know whether or not they are factoring in post-retirement government pensions as part of compensation?

I guess it would depend on the study, but the feds haven't had pensions since 1984, so that's not really something accurate to take into account for many workers.

sorry, went into effect 1987, though people who were part of the transition period had the option of choosing between the two systems - not sure exactly what those years are.

I think FERS has a pension aspect to it as well

Link


over-simplification/sarcasm. The pension available as part of FERs is great for what it is, which is a minimum amount of money which combined with social security, means that if you've worked for the government for 20 years and are a complete idiot and did nothing to plan for retirement on your own, you won't starve. It is also a very good disability program.

What is isn't is an overly generous, complete retirement pension. Anyone retiring exclusively on their FERs pension and social security is going to regret it.

I find it annoying when people conflate the FERs system with the CRS system, or many current state and local pension systems.

The assumption there is that the pension system is a very generous benefit which far outweighs any retirement packages available in the private sector.
If you want to account for the FERs pension as part of the public/private pay gap, you also need to account for the fact that the feds only match 5% into a 401k (TSP), versus private sector which may match a higher percent (I've seen 10-15%).
 
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