FARK.com: (7230112) How do these seven mega-rich companies stay on top? By paying their employees minimum wage (or less), duh

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		How do these seven mega-rich companies stay on top? By paying their employees minimum wage (or less), duh (alternet.org)		162
		More: Asinine, NELP, employment law, Ponte Vedra Beach, New York Comic Con, Sam Walton, extremists, Con Edison, minimum wages

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4645 clicks; posted to Business » on 24 Jul 2012 at 1:35 PM | Favorite | share:

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whither_apophis		2012-07-26 12:15:51 AM

my lip balm addiction: whither_apophis: Durendal: Not to pretend that Starbucks are a lot of saints, but I think this needs fixing:

Starbucks, known for putting small businesses shiatty coffee stands out of business when it rolls into a neighborhood, wants to help small businesses get loans?

Somehow I don't see Starbucks killing every small business on the block when they move in. They sell coffee and related crap. Somehow I don't see that running every small business nearby into the ground. Hell, it might increase traffic to the area.

A yup, I know of a half dozen small cafes, three do their own roasting, doing fine pretty close to a Starbucks

/but I'm in Seattle, YMMV

You're with me here on Capitol Hill ain'tcha.

PhinneyWood, or whatever we're calling it today.

slayer199		2012-07-26 11:59:33 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: Look, I read the whole thing. I really did. I'm not unemployed. Have a job in one of the fields I have a degree in.
But you're hammering the same one-sided idea. You keep saying I'm not entitled to anything, I'm not owed anything, I shouldn't expect anything.
Why does this not also prove true for employers, especially of the type the the article was talking about?
Supply and demand is all well and good, but it doesn't address the cost of living, and businesses that pay less than that are effectively being subsidized by government programs. Is that okay? Do we owe it to them? Are they entitled to it? Or should they have to play by the same rules as everyone else, and either pay wages or taxes to maintain their workforce. We're seeing the ongoing effects of them shirking their responsibilities, privatizing the gains and socializing the losses. Ongoing recession and depression.
Working hard is all well and good, but why are employers entitled to a college educated worker when they aren't willing to offer wages in line with the cost of college? Experience is not part of this equation except as an excuse.
If they're allowed to be entitled, I'm allowed to be entitled. If I'm not, they're not.
I'm not saying your advice is bad, but supply and demand isn't the be-all, end-all, and with the rising price of frickin' everything, it's not possible to work for free, just for experience, unless someone else is paying for your upkeep. Live modestly, get rid of cable, sell your car, bike or ride the bus, get roommate upon roommate, give up every bit of everything that might give you enjoyment if it costs any amount of money, it never ends. We watch our standard of living erode and why? Because business is entitled to our labor? And we're not even entitled to the value our labor produces? Wal-Mart makes billions but pays its workers so little they qualify for food stamps?
It won't end as long as we're absolving business of responsibility to maintain their own workforce, their ...

Since you're pointing out the business side, I'm going to agree to a certain extent that businesses have been able to avoid playing by the same rules of supply and demand. I don't like that some businesses are favored over others because of lobbying. The free market should decide the success or failure of business, not the government. If your business is failing because of poor leadership and poor business decisions, then it shouldn't be bailed out by the taxpayers. Too big to fail my ass. You may not agree in regards to the bailouts, but it's a consistent viewpoint.

Back to the minimum wage argument. As pointed out earlier, only 1% of the population is above the age of 25 and working for minimum wage. So you want to raise the minimum wage to help the 1%?

Sergeant Grumbles		2012-07-26 12:26:55 PM

slayer199: Back to the minimum wage argument. As pointed out earlier, only 1% of the population is above the age of 25 and working for minimum wage. So you want to raise the minimum wage to help the 1%?

Raising the minimum wage does more than just help those 1%. It raises the bar for everyone near that level and doubles as a boost to those just passing through that payscale, like college students. An additional benefit is that you can guarantee near 100% of it is spent, injecting local economies with cash.
And like I keep saying, anything below a living wage is being subsidized by government. Wages or taxes? Which one do you choose?

slayer199		2012-07-26 01:02:26 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: Raising the minimum wage does more than just help those 1%. It raises the bar for everyone near that level and doubles as a boost to those just passing through that payscale, like college students. An additional benefit is that you can guarantee near 100% of it is spent, injecting local economies with cash.
And like I keep saying, anything below a living wage is being subsidized by government. Wages or taxes? Which one do you choose?

First off, what proof do you have that the small percentage of people that would earn minimum wage would need to be subsidized by the government?

Let's say the minimum wage is raised to $10/hour. It could lead to fewer people working at a higher rate as businesses with thin margins will elect to cut staff, outsource, or invest in technology that will improve productivity rather than pay higher labor costs. This is especially true of small businesses who may cut hours of their hourly workers and end up doing more work themselves to maintain the labor costs.

On the flip side, why not raise the minimum wage to $15/hour? Is that livable enough? Why not $20? Who sets the arbitrary number and why? What is the criteria? It's not the free market, it's politicians setting the rate. So what is the criteria?

OhioUGrad		2012-07-26 02:50:36 PM

Pincy: James!: nmemkha: slayer199: downstairs: I'm outraged that retail workers, cashiers, and cleaning crew members are making minimum wage! Thanks for uncovering this economic atrocity!

Unskilled labor making $8 an hour! This is horrible!

Have you ever tried to live on solely $8 an hour?! (If mommy and daddy are still paying your rent, car, and/or an allowance, it doesn't count.)

I have. I had several roommates and eventually I got a better job.

Ah yes, the old "get a better job argument". Do you know how many people are currently working at or close to minimum wage jobs? There aren't enough "better" jobs out there for all of them. We can either have employers pay them more so that they can at least scrape by or the taxpayers can end up footing the bill through government welfare.

Actually, there are not enough qualified workers to fill a lot of the vacant higher paying jobs in this country. You still have too many people not continuing education (they cannot afford it, or don't see the benefits of things like community college) or they go to school and pick some obscure or just downright stupid major.

Sergeant Grumbles		2012-07-26 10:51:04 PM

slayer199: First off, what proof do you have that the small percentage of people that would earn minimum wage would need to be subsidized by the government?
Because people at that income level qualify for government aid. I don't know what more proof you need than minimum wage being below the poverty line.

slayer199: Let's say the minimum wage is raised to $10/hour. It could lead to fewer people working at a higher rate as businesses with thin margins will elect to cut staff, outsource, or invest in technology that will improve productivity rather than pay higher labor costs. This is especially true of small businesses who may cut hours of their hourly workers and end up doing more work themselves to maintain the labor costs.

This has been argued every time the minimum wage might be increased, and every time it's been proven wrong. And look at Australia. $15/hr minimum wage, barely even had a recession. Businesses don't pay people to sit around and do nothing, so they're already operating with as few people as possible. There is no staff to cut and still get the job done. Instead they are at no competitive disadvantage because everyone has to pay the new wages.
Businesses with such shiatty margins, who can't even afford to pay their workers decently, don't have any business being in business. If the only thing keeping you in business is cheap labor, you should probably think about another line of work. Besides, the majority of jobs at that end of the payscale are domestic only service jobs that can't be outsourced or automated.

OhioUGrad: Actually, there are not enough qualified workers to fill a lot of the vacant higher paying jobs in this country.

This continues to be big fat bullshiat thrown about the get H1B visa permits.

OhioUGrad		2012-07-26 11:12:34 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: slayer199: First off, what proof do you have that the small percentage of people that would earn minimum wage would need to be subsidized by the government?
Because people at that income level qualify for government aid. I don't know what more proof you need than minimum wage being below the poverty line.

slayer199: Let's say the minimum wage is raised to $10/hour. It could lead to fewer people working at a higher rate as businesses with thin margins will elect to cut staff, outsource, or invest in technology that will improve productivity rather than pay higher labor costs. This is especially true of small businesses who may cut hours of their hourly workers and end up doing more work themselves to maintain the labor costs.

This has been argued every time the minimum wage might be increased, and every time it's been proven wrong. And look at Australia. $15/hr minimum wage, barely even had a recession. Businesses don't pay people to sit around and do nothing, so they're already operating with as few people as possible. There is no staff to cut and still get the job done. Instead they are at no competitive disadvantage because everyone has to pay the new wages.
Businesses with such shiatty margins, who can't even afford to pay their workers decently, don't have any business being in business. If the only thing keeping you in business is cheap labor, you should probably think about another line of work. Besides, the majority of jobs at that end of the payscale are domestic only service jobs that can't be outsourced or automated.

OhioUGrad: Actually, there are not enough qualified workers to fill a lot of the vacant higher paying jobs in this country.

This continues to be big fat bullshiat thrown about the get H1B visa permits.

Actually, it's about the lack of education in this country. It used to be fine to work a blue collar job with no education and raise a family and pay the bills......but the world has evolved and that no longer pays the bills......those who don't evolve will continue to fail. Blue collar jobs are never coming back to the US. If you look at people getting H1B visas......look at the countries who do well in science and math and produce engineers and doctors.

Sergeant Grumbles		2012-07-26 11:24:26 PM

OhioUGrad: Actually, it's about the lack of education in this country.

Actually, it's about companies no longer willing to train, even as their business model relies on esoteric uses of esoteric software that no one will ever be qualified for without hands on training. And they use that as an excuse for H1B's, who still need just as much training but are half as expensive and can be abused under threat of deportation.

slayer199		2012-07-27 12:50:04 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: This continues to be big fat bullshiat thrown about the get H1B visa permits.

Well, now you've touched on a sore subject with me. The real pain of outsourcing is not the jobs going overseas...it's that kids can't get those entry-level jobs and get experience. So what do we do? H1B's to fill the need for experience workers. THAT sir, is madness...and that is something I'm working on fixing in my own little corner of the world.

slayer199		2012-07-27 12:51:51 AM

OhioUGrad: Actually, it's about the lack of education in this country. It used to be fine to work a blue collar job with no education and raise a family and pay the bills......but the world has evolved and that no longer pays the bills......those who don't evolve will continue to fail. Blue collar jobs are never coming back to the US. If you look at people getting H1B visas......look at the countries who do well in science and math and produce engineers and doctors.

This is more than correct. We are graduating students from high school that are not prepared for college...or worse, they can't read and write because of social promotion. Why aren't the students held back until they learn the material? Because districts can't afford it. It's whacked.

slayer199		2012-07-27 12:57:34 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: This has been argued every time the minimum wage might be increased, and every time it's been proven wrong. And look at Australia. $15/hr minimum wage, barely even had a recession. Businesses don't pay people to sit around and do nothing, so they're already operating with as few people as possible. There is no staff to cut and still get the job done. Instead they are at no competitive disadvantage because everyone has to pay the new wages.

That doesn't really answer the question and you really can't compare the 2 countries.

For all the whining about big-box retailers taking business from the little guys, who do you think stands to benefit from an increase in minimum wage? Wal-Mart or your local business? Easy for you to be so cavalier about a small business's margins considering how many have already gone belly-up due to the economy.

Sergeant Grumbles		2012-07-27 11:18:27 AM

slayer199: who do you think stands to benefit from an increase in minimum wage?

The workers.
Seriously, fark any business that can't afford subsistence wages to their own staff. This isn't an anti-business stance, it's an anti-cheapskate stance. They are not entitled to cheap labor, any more than I'm entitled to a job.

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