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(AlterNet)   How do these seven mega-rich companies stay on top? By paying their employees minimum wage (or less), duh   (alternet.org) divider line 162
    More: Asinine, NELP, employment law, Ponte Vedra Beach, New York Comic Con, Sam Walton, extremists, Con Edison, minimum wages  
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4652 clicks; posted to Business » on 24 Jul 2012 at 1:35 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-24 07:55:40 PM

divx88: Sergeant Grumbles: divx88: Damnit, the ammonia smell always gives me away.

Did I just feed the troll?

I like to think of myself as a hobbit.


Can I buy some pot from you?
 
2012-07-24 08:16:49 PM

divx88: In terms of other industries I know the entry is more difficult. But that's what life is, it's difficult and crying about it being difficult doesn't really make it any less difficult.


Well, the idea is to cry to elected officials who would then set trade policy to staunch some of the bleeding jobs. Fair is what we make it, and if the majority of us think that it isn't fair our wages are set by a Burmese peasant, then we can do something about it.

divx88: Here's some homework to start in that attempt ...

Respectfully, go fark yourself. Entrepreneurship isn't the solution for everyone.
Some people don't want to run their own business. Some people aren't cut out for running their own business. Count me as both. Tried it. Don't ever care to again.
I went to school for 3D design and graphic design, degrees in both. Worked front-end programming cell phone interfaces until my job was offshored, so have that bit of programming experience, too. Give me something to do along that narrow track, I'll check into the zone and jam out a project lickety split, and know it backwards and frontwards. I'll lose myself for hours, never considering it to be work, and end just as fresh-faced and stress free as I was going in. I can and do willingly seek out educational opportunities that would expand my skillset, and take a genuine interest in pushing myself forward.

Anything else? No.
I don't look for clients. I don't size up competitors. I don't make business plans. I don't have financial projections. Get someone else who is good at that. I know what I am good at, and I'll be infinitely more efficient if that is all I have to focus on.
But again, can't always do that when there's a mad drive to outsource everything that isn't nailed down, and especially not coupled with the repeated attacks on the paltry wages of the remaining domestic-only service jobs.
 
2012-07-24 08:49:52 PM
Since this thread has gone there, I don't know why the negative attitude about humanities degrees on Fark persists. People with humanities degrees do get good jobs, you know. We're not all slinging coffee and hash or out protesting. There are jobs where having a degree is itself a sign of initiative, of someone who set out to accomplish a long, complex task and completed it. I know there are tons of Phoenix degrees and shiat, but there are still lots of regular, old accredited colleges people go to everyday.
 
2012-07-24 09:04:01 PM

BarkingUnicorn: It's not how hard you work that matters. It's the value of your output to your customers. It's also a function of supply and demand for your sort of labor. Your negotiating skills are a factor, too.

I've left out many factors in wage disparity, but my point is that how hard you work doesn't matter. I've never heard of paying anyone by the drops of the sweat he shed.



Low skill jobs have been flooded with legal and illegal immigrants. So how is that supply and demand?

Taking advantage of someone in a bad situation by paying them the minimum possible and they have to take it sounds more like legalized slavery or exploitation than "market forces"
 
2012-07-24 09:21:26 PM

verbaltoxin: Since this thread has gone there, I don't know why the negative attitude about humanities degrees on Fark persists. People with humanities degrees do get good jobs, you know. We're not all slinging coffee and hash or out protesting. There are jobs where having a degree is itself a sign of initiative, of someone who set out to accomplish a long, complex task and completed it. I know there are tons of Phoenix degrees and shiat, but there are still lots of regular, old accredited colleges people go to everyday.


People are looking for a scapegoat, and the rich have enough money to deflect. Rather than place the blame where it should lie, on shareholders who demand growth over all else and CEOs and CFOs who pocket the difference between American and Chinese wages, it's instead thrust upon the ever expanding class of undesirables who just aren't working "hard" enough to earn their keep in America. Combine that with religious nutjobbery, and the humanities are the perfect storm of "soft" work and failure to adhere Judeo-Christian teachings that really gets the blinded masses into a froth.
"The Bible says marriage is between a man and a woman, and women should submit to their husbands! We don't need no soshalologist tellin' us that gays have a lower rate of divorce, or psycho-ologists tellin' our womenfolk to get out of an abusive relationship!"
 
2012-07-24 09:22:53 PM

ModernPrimitive01: Can you even wrap your head around the concept that many people work incredibly hard but are still stuck at a minimum wage job? Have you worked fast food? Those jobs are brutal. Can you even conceptualize the idea that not everyone can have great paying jobs no matter what their work ethic is. Sometimes there are situations where for whatever reason people get stuck in a job, but as a society doesn't it make sense that we all get together and say that if you're working, even if that is flipping burgers, that you deserve enough money for your basic needs to be met?


Try reading down the thread. I worked a number of minimum wage jobs through college. Burger King, Dominos (delivering pizzas at $3.35/hour plus tips), barback ($3.35/hr), then a bartender (which required me working my way up for 3 years to get there at $2.85 an hour plus tips). In the summers I worked in a dairy and laid asphalt for minimum wage (which at that time was $5.25 an hour). Where they crappy jobs? Yes. Did I deserve more? No, because they took little to no skill. To answer the question; no, you don't deserve anything for working a no skill job other than what the market will bear.

Besides, if you bothered to do any research other than citing rhetoric you'd find that the stats don't support your opinion. 80% of the minimum wage jobs are held by ages 16-25 and of all jobs paying an hourly rate only 5.2% pay minimum wage.

So what makes you think that those jobs are necessary for a "liveable" wage again? Too make you feel better about wage disparity? It's an empty gesture that does nothing to help those that really need help. Try fighting the problem where it really lies...in an educational system that does a poor job preparing students for college at best and at worst uses social promotion to put kids through K-12 without the basic skills (reading and writing) to help them make a "liveable wage."
 
2012-07-24 09:27:13 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: And the problem with this is?
Living comfortably need not be an undertaking that requires substantial drive and stamina, nor does it have to be achieved via an increasingly narrow selection of fields.
All your "work harder" nonsense also flies out the window for just about anyone who graduated in the last 4 years. They did go to college, they did seek to better themselves and their skills, and more often than not they did have roommates and jobs. What they got for the effort was a shiatty economy and a job selection that wouldn't even begin to pay off the student loans they took out to better themselves.


So it's society's fault if you have a degree in Modern Art (or just about any Liberal Arts degree) and can't find a job? There are plenty of in-demand fields that if you have a degree, you're employable. It comes down to the demands of the market. The other issue (and I know first hand from recruiters) is that many kids out of college even WITH an in-demand degree start with their pay expectations too high. Just take a job, any job in the field for minimum wage if you must. The main goal is to get experience. Money will eventually be there with experience.
 
2012-07-24 09:28:07 PM

slayer199: To answer the question; no, you don't deserve anything for working a no skill job other than what the market will bear.


Unless you missed the article, the market can bear a whole lot more than it's paying out. These companies are using their size and scale to intentionally depress wages and profiting off of the difference. Wal-Mart uses the United States government as a benefits plan. That harms everyone, even those making above minimum wage.

I think it was also said upthread, you either make these companies pay a living wage or you tell them to STFU when they whine about taxes to support the social safety net.
 
2012-07-24 09:29:23 PM

WhyteRaven74: Someone doesn't understand how society works. Among other things.


YOUR vision of society, not mine. If you want to help those lost souls with minimum wage jobs, why don't you start a business to help them and contribute something other than trying to make it society's responsibility to help those that are unwilling to do what it takes.
 
2012-07-24 09:44:09 PM

verbaltoxin: Since this thread has gone there, I don't know why the negative attitude about humanities degrees on Fark persists. People with humanities degrees do get good jobs, you know. We're not all slinging coffee and hash or out protesting. There are jobs where having a degree is itself a sign of initiative, of someone who set out to accomplish a long, complex task and completed it. I know there are tons of Phoenix degrees and shiat, but there are still lots of regular, old accredited colleges people go to everyday.


What gets me are the people that snark about arts/humanities degrees, then go on the entertainment page and sperg about movies and TV. Do you really think that the people who created your precious Batman movie went to college to study math?
 
2012-07-24 09:54:47 PM

whither_apophis: Durendal: Not to pretend that Starbucks are a lot of saints, but I think this needs fixing:

Starbucks, known for putting small businesses shiatty coffee stands out of business when it rolls into a neighborhood, wants to help small businesses get loans?

Somehow I don't see Starbucks killing every small business on the block when they move in. They sell coffee and related crap. Somehow I don't see that running every small business nearby into the ground. Hell, it might increase traffic to the area.

A yup, I know of a half dozen small cafes, three do their own roasting, doing fine pretty close to a Starbucks

/but I'm in Seattle, YMMV


You're with me here on Capitol Hill ain'tcha.
 
2012-07-24 10:04:21 PM

slayer199: Just take a job, any job in the field for minimum wage if you must.


No. No one goes to college to make minimum wage. If a college degree is a job requirement, it sure as hell better pay like it or stop with the charade. It's a sham even without the debt most students come out of college with. With the debt, it's impossible.
 
2012-07-24 10:04:39 PM

my lip balm addiction: whither_apophis: Durendal: Not to pretend that Starbucks are a lot of saints, but I think this needs fixing:

Starbucks, known for putting small businesses shiatty coffee stands out of business when it rolls into a neighborhood, wants to help small businesses get loans?

Somehow I don't see Starbucks killing every small business on the block when they move in. They sell coffee and related crap. Somehow I don't see that running every small business nearby into the ground. Hell, it might increase traffic to the area.

A yup, I know of a half dozen small cafes, three do their own roasting, doing fine pretty close to a Starbucks

/but I'm in Seattle, YMMV

You're with me here on Capitol Hill ain'tcha.


Another Seattleite here. Also subby. I love living near neighborhood coffee roasters; the aroma is heavenly. And they're usually happy to hand over a bucket or two of coffee chaff; it's wonderful to mix into garden soil.
 
2012-07-24 10:04:54 PM

slayer199: nmemkha: Let's talk again in 6 months and see how that "better job" is working out for you tiger ;)

I have skills in demand, I continually build my skills and learn new ones to remain flexible in a competitive market...so I have no problem finding work that pays me six figures. I worked hard building a career over the last 15 years to get there. Yes, I've been laid off (4 times since 2000) but I've never been out of work longer than a month and I've never taken unemployment. I've never taken my career for granted as I know I could get laid off again at any time. I call it performance through paranoia. At the end of the day the only thing that ensures I'm employable are my skills and reputation .

Again, what a farked up set of values we have when we criticize those that work hard to build a career and pity those that don't rather than holding them accountable for their own lack of accomplishment. Apparently those that accomplish something through dedication and hard work are worthy of derision while those that don't are victims.


I really like the bolded comment above. That is basically how I have always worked/my philosophy. I never completed my degree but have skills that have netted me a $60+K job. Hard work, common sense and initiative will get you far in this world. Lots of people work hard but do they have the other two qualities to make them reasonably successful?
 
2012-07-24 10:08:43 PM

my lip balm addiction: I really like the bolded comment above. That is basically how I have always worked/my philosophy. I never completed my degree but have skills that have netted me a $60+K job. Hard work, common sense and initiative will get you far in this world. Lots of people work hard but do they have the other two qualities to make them reasonably successful?


Most of us have enough common sense to know that working in constant fear of losing your job is not a productive work environment, or at least not for long. You should be horrified at yourself for holding this up as a virtue.
 
2012-07-24 10:19:16 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: my lip balm addiction: I really like the bolded comment above. That is basically how I have always worked/my philosophy. I never completed my degree but have skills that have netted me a $60+K job. Hard work, common sense and initiative will get you far in this world. Lots of people work hard but do they have the other two qualities to make them reasonably successful?

Most of us have enough common sense to know that working in constant fear of losing your job is not a productive work environment, or at least not for long. You should be horrified at yourself for holding this up as a virtue.


You read more into that then was there. I am not in fear of my job. My bosses love me and my work. I just do my best to do more work in a shorter period of time than my coworkers and always have. But I do recognize that by being a harder worker without a degree that I have made myself as valuable or more than some folks who do so I am reasonably secure, or as secure as anyone gets these days. But when I was younger I always felt I had to "prove" myself which is what I was talking about in the first place.
 
2012-07-24 10:34:25 PM

hulk hogan meat shoes: Do you really think that the people who created your precious Batman movie went to college to study math?



I sure hope they didn't waste a dime at college. Either go to acting school or just troll the auditions. You don't need any degree to be in entertainment, in fact most people frown upon it. If anything it's just a social club to become friends with people for connections.
 
2012-07-24 10:42:46 PM

ecmoRandomNumbers: Welcome to neo-feudalism.


You just caused 60% of the people in this thread to lapse into a coma.
 
2012-07-24 11:02:38 PM

downstairs: I'm outraged that retail workers, cashiers, and cleaning crew members are making minimum wage! Thanks for uncovering this economic atrocity!


The ironic part of all of this though is the popular drink of choice at all the #occupy rallies was....anyone, anyone?

Starbucks...and yet they're no different than most large companies whose only focus in on the bottom line. Color me SHOCKED.
 
2012-07-24 11:13:46 PM

TheEdibleSnuggie: downstairs: I'm outraged that retail workers, cashiers, and cleaning crew members are making minimum wage! Thanks for uncovering this economic atrocity!

The ironic part of all of this though is the popular drink of choice at all the #occupy rallies was....anyone, anyone?

Starbucks...and yet they're no different than most large companies whose only focus in on the bottom line. Color me SHOCKED.



Even though you have no actual proof of the "popular drink of choice", the ironic part is Starbucks is a socially responsible company. So basically you are calling protesters out for giving their business to companies that are socially responsible.
 
2012-07-24 11:22:59 PM

intelligent comment below: TheEdibleSnuggie: downstairs: I'm outraged that retail workers, cashiers, and cleaning crew members are making minimum wage! Thanks for uncovering this economic atrocity!

The ironic part of all of this though is the popular drink of choice at all the #occupy rallies was....anyone, anyone?

Starbucks...and yet they're no different than most large companies whose only focus in on the bottom line. Color me SHOCKED.


Even though you have no actual proof of the "popular drink of choice", the ironic part is Starbucks is a socially responsible company. So basically you are calling protesters out for giving their business to companies that are socially responsible.



Socially responsible in that they don't buy their java from Juan Pablo the Columbian drug-lord who enslaves small children and pregnant women to do his bidding.

Not so much in the fact that they pay their employees what essentially adds up to minimum wage while charging me nearly $6.00 for a veti frap that cost them less than $1.00 to produce. Oh, and did I mention Starbucks doesn't like unions? That's the big part.
 
2012-07-24 11:57:37 PM
It would seem to me that waitresses are one of the many groups the government farks in the ass on a regular basis. Look, if you ask me to sign something that says the government shouldn't do that, I'll sign it, put it to a vote, I'll vote for it, but what I won't do is play ball. And as for this non-college bullshiat I got two words for that: learn to farkin' type, 'cause if you're expecting me to help out with the rent you're in for a big farkin' surprise.

/Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet
 
2012-07-25 12:12:05 AM
You guys are all missing the point and getting caught up in the beautiful argument. You could argue semantics all day about who works hard and who deserves what and who doesn't. The main point is that when 10 people control more than half the wealth of the country, there is something seriously wrong and inequality at that level is dangerous for the health of the nation.
 
2012-07-25 12:47:01 AM

slayer199: nmemkha: No doubt. The sweetest thing is ... they actually believe the shiat they spew. They are in for a big surprise when inflation kicks in and their "phat wages" don't but the basics anymore. The cognitive dissonance while they reconcile the fact that they have been duped is going to be astounding. It would be funny, if the same demographic also weren't avid gun owners.

No, it's maybe because we worked our asses off to work our way up to a good wage rather than relying on the government to artificially set a wage for us. Many of us had parents or grand parents that grew up in the Great Depression and knew what real hardship was. We used to be proud of Americans that busted their ass to work their way up, but apparently now people that bust their ass and work their way up are objects of scorn for doing so while we pity those that won't work their asses off to better themselves. What a farked up set of values we now have.


You're an arrogent ass and ignorant to boot. Good for you.
 
2012-07-25 12:59:22 AM

chevydeuce: Pincy: James!: nmemkha: slayer199: downstairs: I'm outraged that retail workers, cashiers, and cleaning crew members are making minimum wage! Thanks for uncovering this economic atrocity!

Unskilled labor making $8 an hour! This is horrible!

Have you ever tried to live on solely $8 an hour?! (If mommy and daddy are still paying your rent, car, and/or an allowance, it doesn't count.)

I have. I had several roommates and eventually I got a better job.

Ah yes, the old "get a better job argument". Do you know how many people are currently working at or close to minimum wage jobs? There aren't enough "better" jobs out there for all of them. We can either have employers pay them more so that they can at least scrape by or the taxpayers can end up footing the bill through government welfare.

So, just how much should a hotel housekeeper or carwash employee or "barista" (coffee slinger) make? $14/hr? $18? $25? How much is enough to pay somebody to do a job that a moderately Down-syndrome afflicted person could be trained to do? Are they hard jobs? Sure....Are they jobs that require a high level of skill or a specialized degree? No, and the wages reflect that...And "get a better job" is the answer, whether you and people like want to admit or not...


So you'll pay the down syndrome guy a shiat wage because you rationalize that you are more of a benifit to society than him? Every worker deserves a livable wage. Period. Anything else is inevitabaly a path to slavery or a caste system at best. You are no more important than anyone else who works, pays taxes, and follows societys' laws.
 
2012-07-25 01:05:55 AM

nmemkha: kab: So many bootstraps in this thread, I'd swear I stepped into a cobbler convention.

No doubt. The sweetest thing is ... they actually believe the shiat they spew. They are in for a big surprise when inflation kicks in and their "phat wages" don't but the basics anymore. The cognitive dissonance while they reconcile the fact that they have been duped is going to be astounding. It would be funny, if the same demographic also weren't avid gun owners.


Us poor people own guns too. Let's hope it never comes to that.
 
2012-07-25 01:10:44 AM

slayer199: nmemkha: No doubt. The sweetest thing is ... they actually believe the shiat they spew. They are in for a big surprise when inflation kicks in and their "phat wages" don't but the basics anymore. The cognitive dissonance while they reconcile the fact that they have been duped is going to be astounding. It would be funny, if the same demographic also weren't avid gun owners.

No, it's maybe because we worked our asses off to work our way up to a good wage rather than relying on the government to artificially set a wage for us. Many of us had parents or grand parents that grew up in the Great Depression and knew what real hardship was. We used to be proud of Americans that busted their ass to work their way up, but apparently now people that bust their ass and work their way up are objects of scorn for doing so while we pity those that won't work their asses off to better themselves. What a farked up set of values we now have.


Congratulations! You caught the tail end of the largest ecenomic expansion in world history. You forgot to add that folk were just tougher back then.
 
2012-07-25 01:12:35 AM

TheEdibleSnuggie: Socially responsible in that they don't buy their java from Juan Pablo the Columbian drug-lord who enslaves small children and pregnant women to do his bidding.

Not so much in the fact that they pay their employees what essentially adds up to minimum wage while charging me nearly $6.00 for a veti frap that cost them less than $1.00 to produce. Oh, and did I mention Starbucks doesn't like unions? That's the big part.



You seem to be pissed they don't fund drug lords

And what does "essentially adds up to" mean? Do they or don't they pay minimum wage? They pay a few dollars above minimum wage and usually attract people in school. I don't see a problem here.

If you're paying 6 dollars for a drink that you can make at home then you might be a farking moron in the first place.

Whole Foods hates unions too, your point?
 
2012-07-25 01:14:19 AM

Odd Bird: Pincy: James!: nmemkha: slayer199: downstairs: I'm outraged that retail workers, cashiers, and cleaning crew members are making minimum wage! Thanks for uncovering this economic atrocity!

Unskilled labor making $8 an hour! This is horrible!

Have you ever tried to live on solely $8 an hour?! (If mommy and daddy are still paying your rent, car, and/or an allowance, it doesn't count.)

I have. I had several roommates and eventually I got a better job.

Ah yes, the old "get a better job argument". Do you know how many people are currently working at or close to minimum wage jobs? There aren't enough "better" jobs out there for all of them. We can either have employers pay them more so that they can at least scrape by or the taxpayers can end up footing the bill through government welfare.

So you would justify paying a broom-pusher in NY $15/hour to start? And you'll probably expect him to receive annual raises which keep pace with inflation.
If you're content to push a broom through your working years, or unable to do anything else, life's going to suck a little bit.
Want to raise a family on that? Then you're guilty of living well beyond your means.

Try living in NY on less than $30K a year.


Janitors don't deserve families. Got it.

/"Custodian, dick!"
 
2012-07-25 01:17:07 AM

slayer199: Pincy: Ahh, the other myth surfaces, only rich people work hard.

There's working hard and working hard to accomplish a goal to get ahead and make more money. There are countless numbers of people that worked their way through college to better themselves, or earned a skill that made a "liveable" wage. Yet you expect me to feel pity for those that can't or won't do the same? Sorry, if you're an able-bodied American, you CAN do it if you want it bad enough.


What about all the non-able bodied Americans?
 
2012-07-25 01:19:17 AM

Pincy: slayer199: Pincy: Ahh, the other myth surfaces, only rich people work hard.

There's working hard and working hard to accomplish a goal to get ahead and make more money. There are countless numbers of people that worked their way through college to better themselves, or earned a skill that made a "liveable" wage. Yet you expect me to feel pity for those that can't or won't do the same? Sorry, if you're an able-bodied American, you CAN do it if you want it bad enough.

Because there are enough good paying jobs for everyone who wants one, right? The reason my wife gets hundreds of resumes from overqualified people for a $35,000/year administrative assistant job is merely because they all want to downgrade, right?

No, not everyone can do it if they want it bad enough. There will always be people near the bottom of the economic ladder. We can either force their employers to pay them more or we can subsidize them with government handouts.


Or wait for them to come take our shiat by force.
 
2012-07-25 01:23:16 AM
Some unskilled jobs do pay well more than minimum wage.

Sanipac, the main sanitation company in my area was paying $17 an hour in 2005 to the employees who pick up the garbage & recycling, I wasn't able to find a current wage listing, but not a lot of skill is needed to operate a garbage truck or use the truck's lift arms to pick up a roll can & dump the contents into the truck.
 
2012-07-25 01:39:42 AM

slayer199: AidanPryde98: You forget the fact that there are millions of utter crap jobs in this country that have to be done. And no, most aren't done by people under 25. I guess just because it's something that is "above" you, they don't deserve to be able to have a family.

Not everyone can goto college and work they're way up. This country would fall apart if that were the case.

No, it's not that they can't it's just that not everyone is willing to do that. And yes, it's a good thing they don't because someone has to do those jobs. Point is it's their responsibility to earn their worth; not mine, not yours, and not the government's.


No. The point is that they are worth more than what they are being paid.
 
2012-07-25 01:45:14 AM

nmemkha: slayer199: downstairs: I'm outraged that retail workers, cashiers, and cleaning crew members are making minimum wage! Thanks for uncovering this economic atrocity!

Unskilled labor making $8 an hour! This is horrible!

Have you ever tried to live on solely $8 an hour?! (If mommy and daddy are still paying your rent, car, and/or an allowance, it doesn't count.)


I did. It was called 1993.
 
2012-07-25 01:53:01 AM
I hate being late for the party. Should've looked at the times before slamming out post after post.
 
2012-07-25 02:48:52 AM
I see you guys are still insistent on fighting. please refer to my previous post. You Farkwits are missing the point.
 
2012-07-25 07:23:55 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: No. No one goes to college to make minimum wage. If a college degree is a job requirement, it sure as hell better pay like it or stop with the charade. It's a sham even without the debt most students come out of college with. With the debt, it's impossible.


I'm sorry, I must of missed the guaranteed job voucher that came with my degree. You missed the point entirely. The thing that kids need as much as a degree is experience. My point was if working for a year at a low wage gets someone experience that will translate into more money the next job, then do it.
 
2012-07-25 07:29:13 AM

Sergeant Grumbles: Unless you missed the article, the market can bear a whole lot more than it's paying out. These companies are using their size and scale to intentionally depress wages and profiting off of the difference. Wal-Mart uses the United States government as a benefits plan. That harms everyone, even those making above minimum wage.

I think it was also said upthread, you either make these companies pay a living wage or you tell them to STFU when they whine about taxes to support the social safety net.


You must have not taken an economics class. The market is the job market and there's no competition for unskilled labor. In other words, there are more people looking for a minimum wage job than are available. If those unskilled labor jobs were scarce, the wages would be higher and competition for those jobs would increase. Laws of supply and demand as it applies to the labor market.

Again, the statistics don't justify an increase in the minimum wage for a "living" wage. But you skipped that part as well.
 
2012-07-25 07:29:59 AM

spacelord321: What about all the non-able bodied Americans?


Those are the people we should take care of.
 
2012-07-25 09:28:53 AM

spacelord321: No. The point is that they are worth more than what they are being paid.


How do you figure they're worth more. It's unskilled labor.

Go back to economics class, do not pass go, do not collect minimum wage.
 
2012-07-25 11:44:37 AM

slayer199: spacelord321: No. The point is that they are worth more than what they are being paid.

How do you figure they're worth more. It's unskilled labor.

Go back to economics class, do not pass go, do not collect minimum wage.


I do alright, thank you very much. I'm just not an ignorant ass who thinks that this system is still working. Go back to history class, do not collect the wage that you lie about online.
 
2012-07-25 12:38:54 PM

spacelord321: I do alright, thank you very much. I'm just not an ignorant ass who thinks that this system is still working. Go back to history class, do not collect the wage that you lie about online.


You must have failed your economics class because you think worth is tied to an arbitrary number based on what some sniveling simpleton thinks is "fair' rather than real economic value. Supply and demand, how does it work? Let me give you a refresher.

more workers than jobs = low wages (demand for workers is fewer as the supply for jobs is plentiful)
fewer workers than jobs = high wages (demand for workers is higher as the supply of jobs is scarce)

From wiki:

The four basic laws of supply and demand are:[1]

If demand increases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to higher equilibrium price and higher quantity
If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and lower quantity.
If supply increases and demand remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and higher quantity.
If supply decreases and demand remains unchanged, then it leads to higher equilibrium price and lower quantity.

And I don't need to lie about my wages or education because I earned them rather than having some bleeding-heart whiner campaign for me to make more just because. I did my time in minimum wage when I was young and earned my way to a higher income by building skills and education.

Perhaps you're just bitter because your Liberal Arts degree isn't paying off.
 
2012-07-25 01:51:30 PM
Trying to really think about a fair wage, and what jobs make you do... I really can't think of a single job I think deserves under 15/hr. When you actually think about what that amount of money buys, I don't think anyone's labor that even decently completed is really under 3.5 gallons of milk, or 4 gallons of gas, or 7.5 loaves of bread.

I remember working at Macy's one summer for minimum wage, and I would easily sell enough clothes by myself, in only the men's department, to pay for the entire stores wages.

Thinking about that really makes one unmotivated to give any kind of effort.
 
2012-07-25 04:10:56 PM

slayer199: You missed the point entirely.


No, you did.
I will not work for less than the cost of my degree for a job that requires my degree. Nor should anyone else. If I shouldn't expect anything for free, there's no reason an employer should expect to get my college degree for free.

I'll say it again. Either business needs to pay a wage that employees can survive on or stop whining when their taxes increase to fund the social safety net. You can cry about supply and demand until you're blue in the face, but employers are no more entitled to cheap labor than workers are to good wages. However, every worker needs a wage that will support them. Anything less, and it's not worth doing the job, regardless of whatever market forces you think should set the price. If the workers can't get this, it has to be provided by government, who necessarily taxes it out of the profits that business isn't sharing with the workers.
It's one or the other. Wages or social safeties. Unless you'd like to drop the pretense and admit you're either for slavery and/or letting the poor starve in the street.
 
2012-07-25 07:11:17 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: No, you did.
I will not work for less than the cost of my degree for a job that requires my degree. Nor should anyone else. If I shouldn't expect anything for free, there's no reason an employer should expect to get my college degree for free.

I'll say it again. Either business needs to pay a wage that employees can survive on or stop whining when their taxes increase to fund the social safety net. You can cry about supply and demand until you're blue in the face, but employers are no more entitled to cheap labor than workers are to good wages. However, every worker needs a wage that will support them. Anything less, and it's not worth doing the job, regardless of whatever market forces you think should set the price. If the workers can't get this, it has to be provided by government, who necessarily taxes it out of the profits that business isn't sharing with the workers.
It's one or the other. Wages or social safeties. Unless you'd like to drop the pretense and admit you're either for slavery and/or letting the poor starve in the street.


Ah yes, the entitled generation. You're oh so entitled to more. Apparently the laws of supply and demand don't apply to you. There are plenty of fields that are in demand and pay well. Sorry you chose one that isn't, but that doesn't make you special. Why would someone take you without experience when there are hungry kids with degrees that are willing to take a job and get the experience while you sit on your ass and whine about you're entitled to make more money because of your degree. And guess what, they'll be ahead of you because they took the job for experience and they'll end up making more money than you in the long run. Come to think of it, why would someone hire you with that kind of attitude?
 
2012-07-25 07:57:13 PM

slayer199: Apparently the laws of supply and demand don't apply to you.


No, it really doesn't. I already explained why supply and demand doesn't work here. The cost of living is the cost of living, and either wages or social safety nets are going to have to cover it.

Entitled generation? Pah. I labor under the reality that college wasn't cheap and I'm the one that has to pay for it. It's just as much a matter of can't work for less as it is won't work for less. I'll say it again, because you seem to have skimmed over it, if I shouldn't expect anything for free, there's no reason an employer should expect to get my college degree for free.

Now, knowing nothing about me, tell me again how worthless my alleged Liberal Arts degree is and how you've just worked so much harder than everyone else, ever.
I can only imagine you're one of the standard rank and file conservatives that went to school for $4000 in the 70s and paid $40,000 for a house when you got your first job, chastising me for complaining my college cost $40,000, a house now costs $200,000, and yet the wage at my first job is the same or lower than your first job.
 
2012-07-25 08:43:11 PM
How bootstrappy? Corporations taking advantage of OUR TAX MONEY in the form of social security, medicare, and food stamps to line their own pockets. How you might ask? Well, first use social welfare as an excuse to pay workers shiat. Second, direct those employees to buy their products with said welfare(Wal-mart giving out discounts and taking food stamps YAY!) Third, use every tax exemption possible to make sure your not the one that's going to foot the bill for welfare!

Congratulations are in order. You are destroying America, good job assholes. I almost want to say fark giving out welfare to anyone just to see wal-mart squeal if it didn't mean some needy families would be screwed by such an action.
 
2012-07-25 09:35:04 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: No, it really doesn't. I already explained why supply and demand doesn't work here. The cost of living is the cost of living, and either wages or social safety nets are going to have to cover it.

Entitled generation? Pah. I labor under the reality that college wasn't cheap and I'm the one that has to pay for it. It's just as much a matter of can't work for less as it is won't work for less. I'll say it again, because you seem to have skimmed over it, if I shouldn't expect anything for free, there's no reason an employer should expect to get my college degree for free.


Your degree is nothing but a piece of paper without experience. And since you're unwilling to take less just to get experience you're caught in a Catch-22. The market decides your value whether you want it to or not.

Now, knowing nothing about me, tell me again how worthless my alleged Liberal Arts degree is and how you've just worked so much harder than everyone else, ever.
I can only imagine you're one of the standard rank and file conservatives that went to school for $4000 in the 70s and paid $40,000 for a house when you got your first job, chastising me for complaining my college cost $40,000, a house now costs $200,000, and yet the wage at my first job is the same or lower than your first job.


I'll stop with the criticism and offer you some free advice (or anyone else that has graduated college and can't find work).

I graduated college in the late 80's. Then again, my Liberal Arts degree has nothing at all to do with what I do for a living and it was essentially worthless (which is why I rip on Liberal Arts degrees). Because I was unwilling to go to grad school and get a degree in something in demand (I couldn't find a job for my worthless piece of paper), I ended up bartending through much of my 20's. The degree, it's just an expensive piece of paper, it's incumbent upon YOU to get experience and develop your career after you get a degree....because nobody is going to hand you anything. In short, failing to take a job that would garner you good experience because you feel it's worth less than your market value because you have a degree is foolish. Your market value is set by the market, not you (and when I say you, it may not mean your personally).

You need experience more than a piece of paper no matter how much you feel your degree entitles you to. Hell, we have interns where I work that are working for nothing or little better than nothing for the experience they'll gain. The last group of interns all got hired at my firm or other firms after their internship. I spoke to the people in HR. They complain how hard it is to get college grads willing to intern and gain experience because the pay is so low. That was opposite of when I was in college. Internships where impossible to get because the line was long to get those gigs. So yes, they are essentially slave labor with degrees but they never whine and are grateful for the experience. Granted, internships are a little different but the concept is still the same. Experience is king. The other thing that getting a job in your field will do for you is networking. Finding others in your career field helps in finding new jobs. Working in your career field will also help you find someone with experience that will mentor you and offer career advice.

As for me, I made a career change at 31 and made the most of my opportunities. I work harder than most and in 15 years I went from starting at $24k to making six figures plus. I've seen plenty of people with no experience but lots of motivation do well in their fields.

I've also been laid off 4 times since 2000 and never taken unemployment. I've never been out of work more than a month on each of those layoffs. Partially because I'm more-aggressive and more highly-motivated than the next guy and partially because I have marketable skills AND experience. I never took a job based on money, I took them based on what experience I could gain because I knew that experience pays. I live modestly for my income (e.g. I drive 2007 fuel-efficient car and live in a nice but inexpensive condo in a nice area). After 4 layoffs, I don't take any position for granted because I know that businesses can cut high-priced contractor-guy at any minute. I don't take it personally, it's just business. If I don't like my pay I'm free to negotiate for a higher rate or leave. But that's never really been an issue. In fact at my current job I took a pay cut (I was ahead of another layoff) to get experience in other areas that will pay off down the road.

And it isn't like I don't give back, I mentor young guys that were hungry like I was and have helped countless others find work after they were laid off. That's paying back my debt to a career that has been very good to me.
 
2012-07-25 10:22:39 PM

slayer199: because nobody is going to hand you anything.


Look, I read the whole thing. I really did. I'm not unemployed. Have a job in one of the fields I have a degree in.
But you're hammering the same one-sided idea. You keep saying I'm not entitled to anything, I'm not owed anything, I shouldn't expect anything.
Why does this not also prove true for employers, especially of the type the the article was talking about?
Supply and demand is all well and good, but it doesn't address the cost of living, and businesses that pay less than that are effectively being subsidized by government programs. Is that okay? Do we owe it to them? Are they entitled to it? Or should they have to play by the same rules as everyone else, and either pay wages or taxes to maintain their workforce. We're seeing the ongoing effects of them shirking their responsibilities, privatizing the gains and socializing the losses. Ongoing recession and depression.
Working hard is all well and good, but why are employers entitled to a college educated worker when they aren't willing to offer wages in line with the cost of college? Experience is not part of this equation except as an excuse.
If they're allowed to be entitled, I'm allowed to be entitled. If I'm not, they're not.
I'm not saying your advice is bad, but supply and demand isn't the be-all, end-all, and with the rising price of frickin' everything, it's not possible to work for free, just for experience, unless someone else is paying for your upkeep. Live modestly, get rid of cable, sell your car, bike or ride the bus, get roommate upon roommate, give up every bit of everything that might give you enjoyment if it costs any amount of money, it never ends. We watch our standard of living erode and why? Because business is entitled to our labor? And we're not even entitled to the value our labor produces? Wal-Mart makes billions but pays its workers so little they qualify for food stamps?
It won't end as long as we're absolving business of responsibility to maintain their own workforce, their own society.
 
2012-07-25 11:00:29 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: slayer199: Apparently the laws of supply and demand don't apply to you.

No, it really doesn't. I already explained why supply and demand doesn't work here. The cost of living is the cost of living, and either wages or social safety nets are going to have to cover it.

Entitled generation? Pah. I labor under the reality that college wasn't cheap and I'm the one that has to pay for it. It's just as much a matter of can't work for less as it is won't work for less. I'll say it again, because you seem to have skimmed over it, if I shouldn't expect anything for free, there's no reason an employer should expect to get my college degree for free.

Now, knowing nothing about me, tell me again how worthless my alleged Liberal Arts degree is and how you've just worked so much harder than everyone else, ever.
I can only imagine you're one of the standard rank and file conservatives that went to school for $4000 in the 70s and paid $40,000 for a house when you got your first job, chastising me for complaining my college cost $40,000, a house now costs $200,000, and yet the wage at my first job is the same or lower than your first job.


Thanks for helping me save my breath, Sarge. Good to know your out there.
 
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