Pincy: James!: nmemkha: slayer199: downstairs: I'm outraged that retail workers, cashiers, and cleaning crew members are making minimum wage! Thanks for uncovering this economic atrocity!

Unskilled labor making $8 an hour! This is horrible!

Have you ever tried to live on solely $8 an hour?! (If mommy and daddy are still paying your rent, car, and/or an allowance, it doesn't count.)

I have. I had several roommates and eventually I got a better job.

Ah yes, the old "get a better job argument". Do you know how many people are currently working at or close to minimum wage jobs? There aren't enough "better" jobs out there for all of them. We can either have employers pay them more so that they can at least scrape by or the taxpayers can end up footing the bill through government welfare.

Unfortunately, most people simply don't have the skills, talents and abilities to get those jobs. Especially as computers are able to automate all those people out of the unskilled labor market.

AidanPryde98: slayer199: Pincy: Ahh, the other myth surfaces, only rich people work hard.

There's working hard and working hard to accomplish a goal to get ahead and make more money. There are countless numbers of people that worked their way through college to better themselves, or earned a skill that made a "liveable" wage. Yet you expect me to feel pity for those that can't or won't do the same? Sorry, if you're an able-bodied American, you CAN do it if you want it bad enough.

You forget the fact that there are millions of utter crap jobs in this country that have to be done. And no, most aren't done by people under 25. I guess just because it's something that is "above" you, they don't deserve to be able to have a family.

Not everyone can goto college and work they're way up. This country would fall apart if that were the case.

Yep, it's the old "if only everyone would become a doctor or lawyer then we'd have no poverty". Of course we'd also have no one to haul our trash away.

slayer199: Pincy: Ahh, the other myth surfaces, only rich people work hard.

There's working hard and working hard to accomplish a goal to get ahead and make more money. There are countless numbers of people that worked their way through college to better themselves, or earned a skill that made a "liveable" wage. Yet you expect me to feel pity for those that can't or won't do the same? Sorry, if you're an able-bodied American, you CAN do it if you want it bad enough.

FTFA: 3. Con Edison

New York's energy company is in the headlines right now for its lockout of 8,500 skilled workers, the folks who keep the city's power grid running and keep the air conditioning flowing during record heat.

Looks like that's not really a good solution either.

Also, from http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011.htm, there are 3.8 million minimum wage workers and from http://www.bls.gov/jlt/, there were 3.6 million job openings in May.

So even if every single job opening in the US right now was over minimum wage and we filled it with a current minimum wage worker, we would still have 200k+ minimum wage workers left over.

If those 200k+ people all started businesses, then viola, no more minimum wage workers. It is that simple.

//Oh wait, maybe not.

James!: Pincy: AidanPryde98: slayer199: Pincy: Ahh, the other myth surfaces, only rich people work hard.

There's working hard and working hard to accomplish a goal to get ahead and make more money. There are countless numbers of people that worked their way through college to better themselves, or earned a skill that made a "liveable" wage. Yet you expect me to feel pity for those that can't or won't do the same? Sorry, if you're an able-bodied American, you CAN do it if you want it bad enough.

You forget the fact that there are millions of utter crap jobs in this country that have to be done. And no, most aren't done by people under 25. I guess just because it's something that is "above" you, they don't deserve to be able to have a family.

Not everyone can goto college and work they're way up. This country would fall apart if that were the case.

Yep, it's the old "if only everyone would become a doctor or lawyer then we'd have no poverty". Of course we'd also have no one to haul our trash away.

The people who pick up garbage make significantly more than the minimum.

Talk about missing the point completely.

Pincy: slayer199: My girlfriend is 42 and is going back to school to change to the medical field as it's more in demand (and she has a Master's Degree already). So yes, they can.

Your logic isn't very good. You can't take a few specific examples and use those to prove a broader point. And it's a good thing for your girlfriend that all of those Walmart workers don't decide to do the same thing because she might have a tougher time finding a job with all that extra competition.

Are you comparing unskilled labor to someone who holds a Master's Degree? ROFL.

Pincy: slayer199: Pincy: Ahh, the other myth surfaces, only rich people work hard.

There's working hard and working hard to accomplish a goal to get ahead and make more money. There are countless numbers of people that worked their way through college to better themselves, or earned a skill that made a "liveable" wage. Yet you expect me to feel pity for those that can't or won't do the same? Sorry, if you're an able-bodied American, you CAN do it if you want it bad enough.

Because there are enough good paying jobs for everyone who wants one, right? The reason my wife gets hundreds of resumes from overqualified people for a $35,000/year administrative assistant job is merely because they all want to downgrade, right?

No, not everyone can do it if they want it bad enough. There will always be people near the bottom of the economic ladder. We can either force their employers to pay them more or we can subsidize them with government handouts.

What makes them overqualified? Having a B.A. in fecal performance arts isn't really qualified to do anything... except scrub a crapper.

I always die a little inside when I stumble onto one of these threads and see the old 'you can't live on $8 an hour' argument.

I've said this enough probably.... you Americans seem to have no idea what being poor actually means.

slayer199


Pincy: Ya, everyone who works at Walmart is under 25.

Nice Strawman. Why don't you read the government's stats again from their own website. 80% of the people making minimum wage are under 25.

Perhaps retirees wouldn't have to work at Wal-Mart if the government hadn't pissed away their lifetime of social security contributions so they'd actually have more in return. That money was supposed to be set aside and earn interest (per Roosevelt's own vision).

Piss away their SS contributions. Where did you get that. Find a law that says you are entitled to SS when you retire. It ain't their. SSI was set up to pay you something for about a year till you died. Retirement 65, average death was at just shy of 66.

neaorin: I always die a little inside when I stumble onto one of these threads and see the old 'you can't live on $8 an hour' argument.

I've said this enough probably.... you Americans seem to have no idea what being poor actually means.

Ah yes, since we don't have people dying on the streets we should just be complacent and stop trying to help make people's lives better.

Thanks for your contribution.

Pincy: neaorin: I always die a little inside when I stumble onto one of these threads and see the old 'you can't live on $8 an hour' argument.

I've said this enough probably.... you Americans seem to have no idea what being poor actually means.

Ah yes, since we don't have people dying on the streets we should just be complacent and stop trying to help make people's lives better.

Thanks for your contribution.

I've been to the US. As far as I'm concerned $8 an hour is a living wage, which is what matters when you talk about minimum wage. There will always be people making that, so you're concerned with those people being able to live on it.

If you want to make people's lives better why don't you start with those people who really need it the most.

Unskilled labor not being paid big bucks? NO WAI!

/ made less while paying my way through undergrad and grad

neaorin: Pincy: neaorin: I always die a little inside when I stumble onto one of these threads and see the old 'you can't live on $8 an hour' argument.

I've said this enough probably.... you Americans seem to have no idea what being poor actually means.

Ah yes, since we don't have people dying on the streets we should just be complacent and stop trying to help make people's lives better.

Thanks for your contribution.

I've been to the US. As far as I'm concerned $8 an hour is a living wage, which is what matters when you talk about minimum wage. There will always be people making that, so you're concerned with those people being able to live on it.

If you want to make people's lives better why don't you start with those people who really need it the most.

That a living wage in your country? Cause it isn't in this one.

Not sure what kind of apples and oranges argument you're going for.

James!: AidanPryde98: neaorin: Pincy: neaorin: I always die a little inside when I stumble onto one of these threads and see the old 'you can't live on $8 an hour' argument.

I've said this enough probably.... you Americans seem to have no idea what being poor actually means.

Ah yes, since we don't have people dying on the streets we should just be complacent and stop trying to help make people's lives better.

Thanks for your contribution.

I've been to the US. As far as I'm concerned $8 an hour is a living wage, which is what matters when you talk about minimum wage. There will always be people making that, so you're concerned with those people being able to live on it.

If you want to make people's lives better why don't you start with those people who really need it the most.

That a living wage in your country? Cause it isn't in this one.

Not sure what kind of apples and oranges argument you're going for.

I lived on the minimum for years. How is it not a living wage?

Do you understand how inflation works?

BarkingUnicorn:
If you want to make people's lives better why don't you start with those people who really need it the most.

Because we don't have to look at them.

That's fair enough. Although, you've also just discovered how your own 1% feels about you.

James!: Pincy: James!: AidanPryde98: neaorin: Pincy: neaorin: I always die a little inside when I stumble onto one of these threads and see the old 'you can't live on $8 an hour' argument.

I've said this enough probably.... you Americans seem to have no idea what being poor actually means.

Ah yes, since we don't have people dying on the streets we should just be complacent and stop trying to help make people's lives better.

Thanks for your contribution.

I've been to the US. As far as I'm concerned $8 an hour is a living wage, which is what matters when you talk about minimum wage. There will always be people making that, so you're concerned with those people being able to live on it.

If you want to make people's lives better why don't you start with those people who really need it the most.

That a living wage in your country? Cause it isn't in this one.

Not sure what kind of apples and oranges argument you're going for.

I lived on the minimum for years. How is it not a living wage?

Do you understand how inflation works?

Do you? Also, that's not an answer to the question.

Wages aren't keeping up with inflation. So what someone may have been able to do in the past doesn't necessarily apply to today.

Pincy



Wages aren't keeping up with inflation. So what someone may have been able to do in the past doesn't necessarily apply to today.

I wonder about this argument but not enough to research. I understand that retired people on fixed income can get squeezed particularly those who don't have the ability to get a part time job.

But what about the rest of you out there. Say the wage for a ditch digger is $10/hr and it hasn't gone up in 5 years, is that all that catastrophic given it is probably not the same guy. Joe was a ditch digger 5 years ago, 3 years ago he became a pipe fitter's helper and is making $20/hr now and in 2 years, he will be a pipe fitter making $35/hr and cleaning up with overtime.

Has anyone had their pay cut or not receive even a nominal raise in the past couple of years. Only people I knew were interior designers but they eventually got raises. What's it like out there, are any Farkers truly in desperate times?

One thing I rarely see come up in these threads is how far we have fallen. When I was a kid (40+ years ago) my father worked various jobs and my mom stayed home pooping out kids. Dad never finished high school and worked the kinds of jobs that gets you (sales, bartender, retail, etc). We lived pretty good on what he made. We didn't have a lot of luxuries but we ate well and lived in a decent house with enough left over for a trip to the movies or A&W on the weekends. Now both parents work, farm their kids out to daycare and are one paycheck away from disaster. Sad.

Buffalo77: is that all that catastrophic given it is probably not the same guy.

Yes, it is.

James!: Pincy: James!: Pincy: James!: AidanPryde98: neaorin: Pincy: neaorin: I always die a little inside when I stumble onto one of these threads and see the old 'you can't live on $8 an hour' argument.

I've said this enough probably.... you Americans seem to have no idea what being poor actually means.

Ah yes, since we don't have people dying on the streets we should just be complacent and stop trying to help make people's lives better.

Thanks for your contribution.

I've been to the US. As far as I'm concerned $8 an hour is a living wage, which is what matters when you talk about minimum wage. There will always be people making that, so you're concerned with those people being able to live on it.

If you want to make people's lives better why don't you start with those people who really need it the most.

That a living wage in your country? Cause it isn't in this one.

Not sure what kind of apples and oranges argument you're going for.

I lived on the minimum for years. How is it not a living wage?

Do you understand how inflation works?

Do you? Also, that's not an answer to the question.

Wages aren't keeping up with inflation. So what someone may have been able to do in the past doesn't necessarily apply to today.

Have roommates been eliminated by inflation? People literally cannot live on the wages they are making?

I was more referring to raising a family. Not living like a college student.

AidanPryde98: James!: Pincy: James!: Pincy: James!: AidanPryde98: neaorin: Pincy: neaorin: I always die a little inside when I stumble onto one of these threads and see the old 'you can't live on $8 an hour' argument.

I've said this enough probably.... you Americans seem to have no idea what being poor actually means.

Ah yes, since we don't have people dying on the streets we should just be complacent and stop trying to help make people's lives better.

Thanks for your contribution.

I've been to the US. As far as I'm concerned $8 an hour is a living wage, which is what matters when you talk about minimum wage. There will always be people making that, so you're concerned with those people being able to live on it.

If you want to make people's lives better why don't you start with those people who really need it the most.

That a living wage in your country? Cause it isn't in this one.

Not sure what kind of apples and oranges argument you're going for.

I lived on the minimum for years. How is it not a living wage?

Do you understand how inflation works?

Do you? Also, that's not an answer to the question.

Wages aren't keeping up with inflation. So what someone may have been able to do in the past doesn't necessarily apply to today.

Have roommates been eliminated by inflation? People literally cannot live on the wages they are making?

I was more referring to raising a family. Not living like a college student.

I guess I don't get it. What's the issue? That people who want to have kids can't afford them? Wouldn't we rather them wait until they can?

James!: The people who pick up garbage make significantly more than the minimum.

That's because picking up garbage is actually risky to one's health, given what they are exposed to, moreso than many other general labor jobs.

slayer199: I doubt it because the issue is passion and drive. Many people in those jobs settle for those jobs and living day to day. They may talk about wanting more but don't have the desire to do it. I've had a few friends like that...very smart, totally unmotivated and comfortable just getting by.

And the problem with this is?
Living comfortably need not be an undertaking that requires substantial drive and stamina, nor does it have to be achieved via an increasingly narrow selection of fields.
All your "work harder" nonsense also flies out the window for just about anyone who graduated in the last 4 years. They did go to college, they did seek to better themselves and their skills, and more often than not they did have roommates and jobs. What they got for the effort was a shiatty economy and a job selection that wouldn't even begin to pay off the student loans they took out to better themselves.

Buffalo77: ***snip***

Has anyone had their pay cut or not receive even a nominal raise in the past couple of years. Only people I knew were interior designers but they eventually got raises. What's it like out there, are any Farkers truly in desperate times?

I have been with the same company since late 2007. For Christmas 2007, the entire company and a plus one (about 150 ppl then) was invited to a dinner and a night's stay at a very nice resort about an hour away from the office. We had 4% match on a 401k, a decent insurance plan, everyone who qualified (you needed min. 1 year of service) earned around a 5% raise, and everyone who qualified (min. 6 months service) earned 100% of their bonus.

In 2008, the badness happened and half the company (around 200 ppl at this point) was laid off. The 401k match was pulled, insurance premiums doubled, and no raises or bonuses were given. The company lost $1.1mil, but had budgeted to lose over $2 mil.

In 2009, slight increase in premiums, no raises, but they changed the bonuses so that 50% was dependent on the company as a whole making money, 30% on your team making money, and 20% on personal performance. I got 40% of my bonus (as did the rest of my team) because the way the contract with our client was structured, our team would never (and had never, after 3 years) have positive revenue. We kept them as a client to use the name in sales pitches. The company lost $200k, but had budgeted to lose over $500k.

In 2010, 10% increase in premiums, but a 2% raise and 50% of my bonus. The company lost $12k, but had budgeted to lose over $100k.


In 2011, 15% increase in premiums, but a 1.5% raise and for the first time EVER 100% of my bonus. The company made $3 mil, but had budgeted to make $2.5 mil.

Oh did I mention that the company has 2 boards with 6 people on each, plus 20 executives (not counting directors or managers, of which there are 25) to oversee 300ish employees.

slayer199: not mine, not yours, and not the government's.

Someone doesn't understand how society works. Among other things.

This is how Wall Street is supposed to work.

slayer199: nmemkha: No doubt. The sweetest thing is ... they actually believe the shiat they spew. They are in for a big surprise when inflation kicks in and their "phat wages" don't but the basics anymore. The cognitive dissonance while they reconcile the fact that they have been duped is going to be astounding. It would be funny, if the same demographic also weren't avid gun owners.

No, it's maybe because we worked our asses off to work our way up to a good wage rather than relying on the government to artificially set a wage for us. Many of us had parents or grand parents that grew up in the Great Depression and knew what real hardship was. We used to be proud of Americans that busted their ass to work their way up, but apparently now people that bust their ass and work their way up are objects of scorn for doing so while we pity those that won't work their asses off to better themselves. What a farked up set of values we now have.

Can you even wrap your head around the concept that many people work incredibly hard but are still stuck at a minimum wage job? Have you worked fast food? Those jobs are brutal. Can you even conceptualize the idea that not everyone can have great paying jobs no matter what their work ethic is. Sometimes there are situations where for whatever reason people get stuck in a job, but as a society doesn't it make sense that we all get together and say that if you're working, even if that is flipping burgers, that you deserve enough money for your basic needs to be met?

Is this the thread where I get to brag about my 6 figure salary and brand everyone who lives in poverty as being lazy?

/I get by but don't have kids or own a house
//government employee so my benefits are nice (thanks to the union)

ModernPrimitive01: Is this the thread where I get to brag about my 6 figure salary and brand everyone who lives in poverty as being lazy?

Extra points if you're in IT or CompSci and mention all the unqualified people applying for jobs, or if you're in a STEM field, pretend everyone else majored in Ancient Mesopotamian Lesbian Poetry.

ModernPrimitive01: Is this the thread where I get to brag about my 6 figure salary and brand everyone who lives in poverty as being lazy?

I think this is where I mention I'll make six figures in a year or two, but I want everyone else to be doing well. I don't want anyone working 70 hours a week to keep a roof over their heads. Hell I don't want anyone working 70 hours a week period.

Learn a skill, be useful. Hell, don't even have to do that now. Can just pump out complete gibberish, call it a book put it on Amazon and make bank. Rather easy to make money these days if you're not too busy crying about how life isn't fair.

nmemkha: divx88: Learn a skill, be useful. Hell, don't even have to do that now. Can just pump out complete gibberish, call it a book put it on Amazon and make bank. Rather easy to make money these days if you're not too busy crying about how life isn't fair.

Self-publish on Amazon, eh? Are you that guy on that dead-of-night infomercial where the guy sails around on yacht that smell like cat pee surrounded by beautiful women that used to be men claiming that success is just a magical wish away?

Damnit, the ammonia smell always gives me away.

divx88: Learn a skill, be useful.

This doesn't work when businesses fall over themselves to outsource, offshore, or apply for H1Bs. There are plenty of Americans with skills and a desire to be useful. There are few to none who'll do so for wages down to that of a Burmese peasant. It has nothing to do with skills and usefulness.

divx88: Damnit, the ammonia smell always gives me away.

Did I just feed the troll?

Sergeant Grumbles: divx88: Damnit, the ammonia smell always gives me away.

Did I just feed the troll?

I like to think of myself as a hobbit.

divx88: I like to think of myself as a hobbit.

Does that make you Smeagol?

Sergeant Grumbles: divx88: Learn a skill, be useful.

This doesn't work when businesses fall over themselves to outsource, offshore, or apply for H1Bs. There are plenty of Americans with skills and a desire to be useful. There are few to none who'll do so for wages down to that of a Burmese peasant. It has nothing to do with skills and usefulness.

Yes, we're in a global economy. Work on being better. If you don't want to work for $4/$9 an hour as a programmer, then don't. If you aren't complete shiat, you'd often be surprised at how easy it is to find work. Hell, put together/update your resume and hit up craigslist on all those jobs offering full time employment ... only offer a contract solution with terms. You'd be surprised how much work you can drum up. At least as a programmer.

In terms of other industries I know the entry is more difficult. But that's what life is, it's difficult and crying about it being difficult doesn't really make it any less difficult.

I do know that there are some android devs that pop out free apps in India that make around $100~$300 USD in ad revenue and it's extremely bountiful for them. Maybe irrelevant, maybe not. Either way, look around you, find out what people/businesses need, learn it and get on with life. Or even better, fight tooth and nail making your own job. Here's some homework to start in that attempt ...

- What are you/is your company about?
- What problem are you solving?
- What is your solution?
- What roles are needed?
- Who are your competitors?
- How do you measure up to your competitors?
- What is your market?
- Why is this market good to get in now?
- What is your business model?
- What is your going to market strategy?
- What are your financial projections?
- Exit strategy

... suppose you could just keep crying about life being unfair though. My boss sucks cause he pays me shiat for pouring coffee. Though I have to say, this morning I almost gave up when I couldn't figure out if I was supposed to use 2 or 3 rounded scoops. fark that was hard.

Sergeant Grumbles: divx88: I like to think of myself as a hobbit.

Does that make you Smeagol?

Yes, now don't fark with my precious ... precious!