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(USA Today)   More and more unmarried couples are having children, which you'd think would upset Conservatives more than gay adoption   (usatoday.com) divider line 21
    More: Interesting, gay adoption, National Center for Health Statistics, cohabitations, Guttmacher Institute  
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3672 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2012 at 11:23 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-07-24 01:46:21 PM  
2 votes:
We should give tax breaks for NOT having children, not having them.

There, I said it.
2012-07-24 12:19:26 PM  
2 votes:
Don't worry, we're talking about people who are enraged by the Girl Scouts, "Happy Holidays and the White House vegetable garden.

Conservatives have an endless supply of hatred to supply every manufactured "scandal".
2012-07-24 12:10:28 PM  
2 votes:
I've been cohabing w/ my "wire" for almost 30 years. MA does not recognize cohabitation, and around 1987 it was actually still illegal (max year in jail, $300 fine). We have 3 kids, house, assets, cars, stocks, health care coverage, all the usual middle class stuff and I'll be honest with you..... NOBODY cares about our marital status. Probably cuz we're a boring white couple.
I'mOkWithThat.jpg
2012-07-24 11:53:55 AM  
2 votes:
One of the primary functions of marriage, historically, was to legally obligate the father to provide for the children, to provide an automatic means of passing family wealth through the generations, and to provide some financial and societal security/position for the acquiescent broodmare (AKA wife). The focus was not the couple but the family unit. That attitude has shifted, obviously, to where it is now all about the couple. As others have pointed out, government has supplanted the role of the father as provider so marriage is no longer about the children.

All moral posturing aside, it is a pretty well-documented fact that children who are born into a committed marital relationship have a much greater chance of not being in poverty, a much better chance of success educationally and socially, a much lower incidence of drug use, teen pregnancy, and ending up in prison. That does not mean that children born into a single parent family will fail. But the chances are much greater.

Additionally, child abuse at the hands of a step-parent is substantially higher than at the hand of a parent.

Yes, good kids can come out of dire circumstances and rotten sociopaths can come out of ideal circumstances, but that's probably not the way to bet.

There have always been "unwed mothers" just as there has always been common law marriage and divorce. Society suffers when what used to be a manageable rarity becomes the unmanageable norm; or, as Daniel Patrick Moynihan put it, "defining deviancy down."
2012-07-24 11:36:28 AM  
2 votes:
When Bristol Palin does it, it is a miraculous gift from God.

When you do it, you are a sinner, a drain on society, and a bad example to our children.
2012-07-24 04:08:21 PM  
1 votes:

shortymac: Hell, do you even know your neighbor's name?


Regardless of upbringing, men and women tend to be different. Note the word tend. It is intentional. I know a few women with bigger balls than most men I know. I know men who are quite wimpy but otherwise normal. But the tendencies, parenting-wise, are as I stated.

You're right that all children need role models. Boys need a strong male role model but they also need a female role model so they know how to treat girls and women as they get older. And if their Dad doesn't know how to cook, do laundry and at least sew on a button, their Mom ought to teach them! Girls need a female role model but also need a male role model to know how to interact with boys and men and how they should expect to be treated by them.

Of course, if you have really lousy parents, you may be better off without! My mother was a basket case but my grandmothers and aunts made up for it. The advantages of close knit extended families! I actually grew up poor but didn't know it. The family by whom I was surrounded gave me one of the most blessed childhoods you could imagine. Looking back, if our family could have been much wealthier but not had the great extended family nearby, I would have had a much poorer childhood.

But I do actually know my neighbors. Because I live near an even smaller town and I've retired to my little farm. One of my daughters lives in Chicago. She knows her neighbors because she's made the effort. She's pretty unusual.
2012-07-24 03:38:31 PM  
1 votes:

Mr. Right: LiberalEastCoastElitist: Once you control for those factors the marriage advantage goes away. Marriage is more of an expression of having your shiat together than the cause of better outcomes.

I won't argue a single point you've made. But being in a committed marriage is part of getting one's shiat together where the welfare of children is concerned.

Here's the dirty little secret. Men and women are different from each other. As parents, women tend to be more nurturing, men tend to be tougher and more disciplinary. I'm sure you can point to a thousand examples where that's not true, so can I. But those are the tendencies. The more nurturing parent will always bring the baby the food. The disciplinarian will know when it's time to kick him out of the nest to get his own food. Children need that balance. Sometimes they need somebody to kiss the booboo, sometimes they need somebody to tell them to walk it off and get back out there.

My point is that there are no absolutes in marriage or parenting. Different folks do things differently. Some succeed without the marriage, others fail with it. But the norm is that two parent families produce, on average, the best kids.

On a larger scale, there are societal tipping points. Boys, for example, need strong male role models so that they know how to interact with other guys, how to treat and how to respect women, how to develop the toughness required to get up and do what needs doing every day, and how to take responsibility for oneself. There are women who can do that for their sons but a good man (emphasis on good) will normally do a better job. If, in a bunch of boys, most of them have that strong role model, they can help the minority that doesn't have such a role model. When I was young, divorce was unheard of in our little Midwestern town and only kid in my class didn't have a Dad, he had died of Hodgkin's Disease. Other fathers in the neighborhood invited him along with their own sons to go to ball g ...


A lot of that "men and women are different" is cultural expectations that have been taught to us since we were babies.

I do agree with you about role models but that all children need them, regardless of gender. The sad part is that in poverty you're surrounded by negative influences and it's difficult to get out of. Your town sounds like it had a really strong community, which I believe we lack nowadays.

Hell, do you even know your neighbor's name?
2012-07-24 02:32:26 PM  
1 votes:

LiberalEastCoastElitist: Once you control for those factors the marriage advantage goes away. Marriage is more of an expression of having your shiat together than the cause of better outcomes.


I won't argue a single point you've made. But being in a committed marriage is part of getting one's shiat together where the welfare of children is concerned.

Here's the dirty little secret. Men and women are different from each other. As parents, women tend to be more nurturing, men tend to be tougher and more disciplinary. I'm sure you can point to a thousand examples where that's not true, so can I. But those are the tendencies. The more nurturing parent will always bring the baby the food. The disciplinarian will know when it's time to kick him out of the nest to get his own food. Children need that balance. Sometimes they need somebody to kiss the booboo, sometimes they need somebody to tell them to walk it off and get back out there.

My point is that there are no absolutes in marriage or parenting. Different folks do things differently. Some succeed without the marriage, others fail with it. But the norm is that two parent families produce, on average, the best kids.

On a larger scale, there are societal tipping points. Boys, for example, need strong male role models so that they know how to interact with other guys, how to treat and how to respect women, how to develop the toughness required to get up and do what needs doing every day, and how to take responsibility for oneself. There are women who can do that for their sons but a good man (emphasis on good) will normally do a better job. If, in a bunch of boys, most of them have that strong role model, they can help the minority that doesn't have such a role model. When I was young, divorce was unheard of in our little Midwestern town and only kid in my class didn't have a Dad, he had died of Hodgkin's Disease. Other fathers in the neighborhood invited him along with their own sons to go to ball games and the like. Different fathers in the neighborhood took turns helping him with the lawn, shoveling the snow, fixing the mower, and all the other things that fathers normally taught their sons back then. So we had someone who did not fit the norm but the neighborhood covered, as best it could, the deficit.

When the percentage of boys in a classroom without any male role model in the home vastly exceeds those with such a model, that deficit cannot be covered. And that is how gang violence escalates, how criminal activity becomes the usual, etc. It's about tipping points. If society wants to do what's really best for children, it will encourage strong marriages. It's not a religious right kind of thing, it's a benefit to society kind of thing.
2012-07-24 02:02:50 PM  
1 votes:

nytmare: So far as I can tell, fundie conservatives are all about pumping out babies. Hence opposition to birth control, abortion, masturbation, and gays. Raising them well is totally secondary.


this reminds me of the permission to live blog that I stumbled upon thanks to Fark. She was raised a sheltered quiverfull and has moved away from the mindset, she said (I'm paraphrasing):

"I had taken care of all the baby's physical needs (feeding, bathing, etc) but then didn't know what else to do with myself and her. I didn't see her as a full human being that I could interact with and have a personal relationship with."
2012-07-24 12:58:45 PM  
1 votes:
Okay the scary thing about this article:

"The report also reveals more details about contraception. In 2008, for example, 19% of births were unintended; 36% of women who had an unintended birth said they didn't use contraception because they thought they couldn't get pregnant. But 23% of those women said they "didn't really mind if I got pregnant.""

Always use contraception!!!!

The problem isn't so much non-married couples having kids, it's people having children too young and deadbeat parents (not just men). (Better article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/us/two-classes-in-america-divided-by -i-do.html?_r=2&hp&pagewanted=all)

The unmarried woman in the article did get screwed over by dating a deadbeat, BUT she's burdened with 3 kids now while the deadbeat gets off scott-free. They could have been married and the same thing would have happened.

Marriage is just a legal contract saying "Dear Government, we're more than just roommates. KTHXBI".

Having a kid with the wrong person is so much worse than marrying/living with them, without kids breaking up sucks and it's expensive, but after it's over you can move on with your life. With kids, you're stuck for life.

The crux of the problem is that abusive partners use kids as a reason to keep the other partner subdued and we need to make note of that in our sex ed classes (which shouldn't be abstinence-only and should include healthy relationships). It's a problem that will never go away but we can do our best to minimize it.

Also BC isn't just the girl's problem, man up and use a condom. 2 forms of protection is better than 1.
2012-07-24 12:50:19 PM  
1 votes:
Unmarried , cohabitating mom. Doing my part to piss off the religious right.
2012-07-24 12:23:31 PM  
1 votes:

Jon iz teh kewl: Honest Bender: Honestly, I think the institution of marriage is just losing ground. It would be better if any 2 humans could sign paperwork to just be considered legally a couple.

what if my cat signs an agreement with my dog.? could they have a Nickelodeon (tm) Cat Dog??


When any of your pets have the ability to sign their name and swear an oath to a government official you'll have a lot more issues to deal with than Dogs and Cats Living Together.
2012-07-24 12:17:28 PM  
1 votes:
Conservatives are slowly realizing that People who Love each other, raising their children in a Loving Home, is Far better than a couple of kids, forced to marry by custom, trying to raise kids when they are no longer infatuated with their former "love interest".

Marriage has become a burden, instead of the declaration to society of a loving commitment to family that it once was.

I know of no culture where a Marriage agreement was intended to "Force" a Man to care for his children. A Man will do that regardless. A Male Human who is not interested in Supporting, and Loving his children is not a Man, and is closer to being a dumb animal.
2012-07-24 12:15:59 PM  
1 votes:
the fact that people still use the term "wedlock" is pretty interesting too.
2012-07-24 12:12:34 PM  
1 votes:
less people give a damn than you think. they just don't care. don't care who you are, what your politics are and what your personal sex choice is. big deal. get over yourself.
2012-07-24 11:46:38 AM  
1 votes:

HMS_Blinkin: When Bristol Palin does it, it is a miraculous gift from God.


Nothing made me want to cockpunch Guliani more than that video where he's standing there with all those other Republicrites applauding those two morons Bristol and Levi.
2012-07-24 11:35:33 AM  
1 votes:

Honest Bender: Honestly, I think the institution of marriage is just losing ground. It would be better if any 2 humans could sign paperwork to just be considered legally a couple.


Like, say, a marriage certificate, in a progressive state like Massachusetts?
2012-07-24 11:34:37 AM  
1 votes:
Honestly, I think the institution of marriage is just losing ground. It would be better if any 2 humans could sign paperwork to just be considered legally a couple.
2012-07-24 11:34:27 AM  
1 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: People having children had out of wedlock was pushed way down the list thanks to interracial marriages, and then gay marriages.


As someone in an interracial marriage, come at me Tea Party.

/who am I kidding, no one gets outraged over white guy, Asian woman
//well except Asian guys
2012-07-24 11:33:02 AM  
1 votes:
2.bp.blogspot.com
2012-07-24 11:28:23 AM  
1 votes:
The bastards
 
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