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(Times of Israel)   Actual headline: '@BBC, f*** you, a-holes. #suckit'   (blogs.timesofisrael.com) divider line 243
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21378 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jul 2012 at 1:14 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-24 03:38:07 PM

Dr Dreidel: XveryYpettyZ: Dr Dreidel: Klopfer: A government doesn't make a city the capital of the country. The capital of the Netherlands is Amsterdam, but the Dutch government is in Den Haag. The capital of Bolivia is Sucre, but the government has its seat in La Paz.
Israel has to face the fact that they occupied Jerusalem which according to the original plans of the UN wasn't going to be part of Israel OR Palestine. Most countries won't validate Israels occupation of Jerusalem by recognizing it as the capital of the country.

Interesting. So the part of Jerusalem that was part of Israel as a result of the partition vote in November of 1947 (known in modern parlance as "Jerusalem", as opposed to the half of Jerusalem won by Israel in 1967, referred to as "East Jerusalem")...this means nothing?

// it was also won in the Arab-Israel war from Nov 47-May 48, but that's clearly not going to be a persuasive argument

Tiny minority groups probably shouldn't be trotting out the idea that right of conquest might be valid. Some ideas have sharp parts on both sides-- have to be careful how you swing them.

Did you miss the part where the UN voted to carve out a parcel of land for Israel without "Israel" casting a vote? That was November of 1947. Israel counts independence from about 6 months later, in 1948. Even though it appears Israel is counting based on when the war was won, that was when "independence" was established. And ohbytheway, Jerusalem was included within Israel's part of the partition in 1947.

"Conquest" implies a campaign to conquer other lands, making the UN the "conquistador" in this case. Israel just backed up their ability to possess/control the land they'd already been given. (The "tiny minority" acquitting itself quite well on the battlefield.)

// and we're not talking about post-1967
// because Jerusalem has been a part of Israel's land and its self-defined capital since 1947-8
// also, none of this suggests I'm fond of the Irgun or some of the tactics used in ...


The UN also wanted Jerusalem to be netural ground (a la Vatican City).

But we all saw how that turned out.
 
2012-07-24 03:39:23 PM
I see we've already covered "if you criticize Israel you hate the joooos!" victimology.
 
2012-07-24 03:40:22 PM

Eshkar: But hey I am glad you can make reference and "fact" checking via wikipedia. If my past college professors wouldn't accept it as a source neither will I.


You do know an adhominem like that immediately tells everyone you got nuthin', right?

Ironic that you did it in response to a fact check challenge too.
 
2012-07-24 03:40:24 PM

Magorn: This is why the capital of say, West Germany was moved from Berlin to Bonn during the cold war


No, that's not why. It wasn't some freshman poli-sci paper's half-assed legal theory about other claimants. They didn't want the capital in Berlin because it was essentially behind enemy lines, cut off and indefensible.
 
2012-07-24 03:42:52 PM

Jairzinho: Eshkar: As of 2010 Israel's Palestinian population was ~20%... Jordan's Palestinian population is ~70%... so Palestinians are the majority in Jordan... so that makes Jordan a Palestinian Country

Black Population in South Africa : 78%
Black Population in Haiti : 85%

Let's return Haiti to Africa where they belong.


Wow... talk about taking what I said out of context... Haiti is ruled by Haitians which are the majority. Jordan is ruled by Arabs which are the minority, while they violently oppress the Palestinian Majority. Israel is ruled democratically by the Majority... which are Hebrew. Ergo Jordan should be ruled by the Palestinians which make up the majority. Don't try to paint me as a racist you clot pole.
 
2012-07-24 03:44:42 PM

El Pachuco: Eshkar: But hey I am glad you can make reference and "fact" checking via wikipedia. If my past college professors wouldn't accept it as a source neither will I.

You do know an adhominem like that immediately tells everyone you got nuthin', right?

Ironic that you did it in response to a fact check challenge too.


No it just tells me that you need to make reference to more reliable sources. I'm not the New York Times, I need reliable sources.
 
2012-07-24 03:44:53 PM

liam76: So are you happy with the way the BBC has it for both countries now?

No.


As I said before.

Funny how they go out of ehir way to say what the Palestenians intend but don't report the fact on the ground about it. Actually not funny, par for the ocurse when it comes to BBC and Israel

They say that Pelestine wants it there but makes no mention about the realities. They ignore what Israel wants, refuse to acknowledge it is the actual capitol, and go out of their way to point out that Embassies aren't there.

They got caught showing clear double standards. After that they still show double standards.


This is all you can really expect from liam "IRA are the good terrorists" 76; he's not happy unless he's whining about something. They corrected both profiles to a more balanced and internationally acceptable wording. Move on man, move on.
 
2012-07-24 03:45:30 PM

El Pachuco: Eshkar: But hey I am glad you can make reference and "fact" checking via wikipedia. If my past college professors wouldn't accept it as a source neither will I.

You do know an adhominem like that immediately tells everyone you got nuthin', right?

Ironic that you did it in response to a fact check challenge too.


He's gonna call you a racist now.
 
2012-07-24 03:46:43 PM

Fart_Machine: El Pachuco: Eshkar: But hey I am glad you can make reference and "fact" checking via wikipedia. If my past college professors wouldn't accept it as a source neither will I.

You do know an adhominem like that immediately tells everyone you got nuthin', right?

Ironic that you did it in response to a fact check challenge too.

He's gonna call you a racist now.


Nah, I only call racist... racist.
 
2012-07-24 03:48:09 PM

Eshkar: Fart_Machine: El Pachuco: Eshkar: But hey I am glad you can make reference and "fact" checking via wikipedia. If my past college professors wouldn't accept it as a source neither will I.

You do know an adhominem like that immediately tells everyone you got nuthin', right?

Ironic that you did it in response to a fact check challenge too.

He's gonna call you a racist now.

Nah, I only call racist... racist.


Good bye troll. Go be a victim somewhere else.
 
2012-07-24 03:51:54 PM
Eshkar: Yes I get it, you have a black friend, a gay friend, and a Jew friend and they all support your racist bigotry. Dude earlier you justified the Inquisition and Hitler by justifying hatred of Jews... Guess what your a Bigot... look in the mirror and I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a neon sign flashing bigot over your head... Yes I am a Zionist, a proud Zionist... not a chicken nor a chicken shiat, but defiantly a Zionist.

Saying that annoying pieces of work like yourself were responsible for various societies attempting to rub out the Jews throughout history is just an observation. Widely different people do not just up and attack another group of people at various places and times throughout history without cause. I grew up around Jews and had no quarrel with them until they got involved with subverting US foreign policy by bribing the corrupt US Congress. Now I see Israel as being not an ally of the USA, but as a very real threat to the USA. This does not make me a bigot, it makes me a realist.
 
2012-07-24 03:52:45 PM

Eshkar: To be honest I don't give a flying fark what the UN has to say, nor the international community, they can all suck my big toe. Lets play a numbers game As of 2010 Israel's Palestinian population was ~20%... Jordan's Palestinian population is ~70%... so Palestinians are the majority in Jordan... so that makes Jordan a Palestinian Country, so Palestinians should rule Jordan (but they are violently oppressed, far worse than anything Israel has ever done). So solution to problem is for Jordan to become the Palestinian homeland (like the original UN plan... which I don't even care about), Palestinians from all over the world including Israel can then decide if they wish to live there. Israel will have their land, including the West Bank and the Palestinians can have all of Jordan. Given the numbers this plan is much more fair to both sides, Israel keeps their small amount of land in the middle east and Palestine gets a very large area where they are currently already the majority. The Hebrew nation and the Palestinian Nation, two Semitic nations, the perfect two state solution.


See, this is exactly my point. All of the talk about a Palestinian state on the West Bank of the Jordan River? a smoke screen. But beware, if you get what you want Israel will lose its soul. It cannot be Jewish, democratic and have all that land. You can have 2 of 3, and since you've already picked land, you have to choose between being a Jewish state (by systematically excluding non-Jews from the political process) or being democratic (by accepting the demographic time-bomb that is all the Palestinians in your occupied lands).

/You weren't thinking of ethnic cleansing, were you?
 
2012-07-24 03:54:09 PM

Dr Dreidel: XveryYpettyZ: Dr Dreidel: Klopfer: A government doesn't make a city the capital of the country. The capital of the Netherlands is Amsterdam, but the Dutch government is in Den Haag. The capital of Bolivia is Sucre, but the government has its seat in La Paz.
Israel has to face the fact that they occupied Jerusalem which according to the original plans of the UN wasn't going to be part of Israel OR Palestine. Most countries won't validate Israels occupation of Jerusalem by recognizing it as the capital of the country.

Interesting. So the part of Jerusalem that was part of Israel as a result of the partition vote in November of 1947 (known in modern parlance as "Jerusalem", as opposed to the half of Jerusalem won by Israel in 1967, referred to as "East Jerusalem")...this means nothing?

// it was also won in the Arab-Israel war from Nov 47-May 48, but that's clearly not going to be a persuasive argument

Tiny minority groups probably shouldn't be trotting out the idea that right of conquest might be valid. Some ideas have sharp parts on both sides-- have to be careful how you swing them.

Did you miss the part where the UN voted to carve out a parcel of land for Israel without "Israel" casting a vote? That was November of 1947. Israel counts independence from about 6 months later, in 1948. Even though it appears Israel is counting based on when the war was won, that was when "independence" was established. And ohbytheway, Jerusalem was included within Israel's part of the partition in 1947.

"Conquest" implies a campaign to conquer other lands, making the UN the "conquistador" in this case. Israel just backed up their ability to possess/control the land they'd already been given. (The "tiny minority" acquitting itself quite well on the battlefield.)

// and we're not talking about post-1967
// because Jerusalem has been a part of Israel's land and its self-defined capital since 1947-8
// also, none of this suggests I'm fond of the Irgun or some of the tactics used in ...


Yes, and babies don't get to vote on what their names are going to be. It's part of being brought into the world by an outside source, rather than getting there on your own.
 
2012-07-24 03:55:01 PM

Fart_Machine: I see we've already covered "if you criticize Israel you hate the joooos!" victimology.


No there is no imagining it; the western world has been consciously and unconsciously imprinted with a hate of the Jewish people for over 2000 years now. It is actually a western social norm; sadly most people don't even realize that is where their distaste of Jews and Israel comes from, but sadly it is. Christianity's constant hate fest and attempts at mass extermination of the Jewish People has left a lasting effect on the Western World. Just like there are still latent racist in the Southern US, most people don't even realize it but they still hold racist ideas, usually they pop out of no where and shock the person when they say it in a moment of anger or frustration. Now just imagine that being planted into society for over 2000 years. Deny as you may the West has a culture norm to hate Jews... it is being repaired now but it is still there, 2000+ years of hate doesn't disappear in 70 or 80 years.
 
2012-07-24 03:55:41 PM
Journalism is a serious field

That was when I started laughing and quit reading. It was a serious field. Now "serious" involves trailing after celebrities and reporting on their every move for no apparent reason.
 
2012-07-24 03:57:48 PM

Carousel Beast: Sock Ruh Tease: That was a lot of butthurt condensed into one article. From Wikipedia: "The UN and most countries do not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, taking the position that the final status of Jerusalem is pending future negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority"

You want a recognized capital? Negotiate, assholes.

Palestianian Authority? Shouldn't that be "Jordan?" I thought that's who they took it from way back when.


Facts have no place on FARK so just stop it right now.
 
2012-07-24 03:59:59 PM
Man your blog sucks.
 
2012-07-24 04:00:42 PM

Sock Ruh Tease: That was a lot of butthurt condensed into one article. From Wikipedia: "The UN and most countries do not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, taking the position that the final status of Jerusalem is pending future negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority"

You want a recognized capital? Negotiate, assholes.


And we're done. Some comedian gets a bug up his ass over the fact that no one recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, because it's still in dispute, and somehow it's the fault of... the BBC?

Hey, stupid comedian - direct your ire to Israel, or to the UN, but the BBC is, in fact, doing its job. Reporting.
 
2012-07-24 04:02:23 PM

XveryYpettyZ: Eshkar: To be honest I don't give a flying fark what the UN has to say, nor the international community, they can all suck my big toe. Lets play a numbers game As of 2010 Israel's Palestinian population was ~20%... Jordan's Palestinian population is ~70%... so Palestinians are the majority in Jordan... so that makes Jordan a Palestinian Country, so Palestinians should rule Jordan (but they are violently oppressed, far worse than anything Israel has ever done). So solution to problem is for Jordan to become the Palestinian homeland (like the original UN plan... which I don't even care about), Palestinians from all over the world including Israel can then decide if they wish to live there. Israel will have their land, including the West Bank and the Palestinians can have all of Jordan. Given the numbers this plan is much more fair to both sides, Israel keeps their small amount of land in the middle east and Palestine gets a very large area where they are currently already the majority. The Hebrew nation and the Palestinian Nation, two Semitic nations, the perfect two state solution.

See, this is exactly my point. All of the talk about a Palestinian state on the West Bank of the Jordan River? a smoke screen. But beware, if you get what you want Israel will lose its soul. It cannot be Jewish, democratic and have all that land. You can have 2 of 3, and since you've already picked land, you have to choose between being a Jewish state (by systematically excluding non-Jews from the political process) or being democratic (by accepting the demographic time-bomb that is all the Palestinians in your occupied lands).

/You weren't thinking of ethnic cleansing, were you?



Did I say anything about Ethnic cleansing or forced relocation? No I said once the Palestinians have gained control of Jordan the Palestinians throughout the world could then decide if they wanted to move there... they could decide. I didn't say Israel would force them. I did say that Israel would remain Israel.. .all of Israel including the West bank. Ripping your country apart for ~20% of your population is ridiculous. I just believe that given the choice Palestinians would rather live in a Democratic Palestinian run Jordan than remain in Israel as a minority; just as many Jews prefer to move to Israel and live in a Jewish majority state.
 
2012-07-24 04:03:42 PM
planetlibertaria.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-07-24 04:06:09 PM
Eshkar
Did I say anything about Ethnic cleansing or forced relocation? No I said once the Palestinians have gained control of Jordan the Palestinians throughout the world could then decide if they wanted to move there... they could decide. I didn't say Israel would force them. I did say that Israel would remain Israel.. .all of Israel including the West bank. Ripping your country apart for ~20% of your population is ridiculous. I just believe that given the choice Palestinians would rather live in a Democratic Palestinian run Jordan than remain in Israel as a minority; just as many Jews prefer to move to Israel and live in a Jewish majority state
.

You do realize we are talking about members of a death cult who want you and your people dead right? They dont want your land, they want your head.
 
2012-07-24 04:08:47 PM

XveryYpettyZ: Yes, and babies don't get to vote on what their names are going to be. It's part of being brought into the world by an outside source, rather than getting there on your own.


Uh, what?

I'd rather every country on Earth got voted into existence (a la South Sudan or Israel), rather than have to wage bloody campaigns to gain independence. I mean, I'd really rather no population feel so mistreated they feel they need a new country.

I'd rather the Palestinian leadership not be morons more concerned with their peoples' PR than their well-being.

I'd rather Israel not have to deal with Palestinians as a people - dealing with them the same way the US deals with Floridians or Montanans would be peachy (i.e. they're a subset of the population, nothing else). Lumping the entire population ideologically together is a shortcut for security (and not nearly a perfect one), not a resolution to a problem.

I'd rather the indigenous Arab and Jewish populations had gotten together in 1947 and said: "We've got a long history of stepping on each other's dicks. Let's cut that out and make this new country work."

I'd rather not have to worry about the people I know and love who live in Israel getting caught up in a war they want no part of (and I know there are Palestinians & Israelis who do want that war. Fark 'em, they're morons, too).

I'd rather a lot of things, but I can't ignore reality.
 
2012-07-24 04:11:26 PM

Eshkar: XveryYpettyZ: Eshkar: Why don't you create them a state in Montana or some where like that... considering the Palestinian "refuge" population in the US... that is essentially what you are asking Israel to do. What we call Jordan is actually Palestine. If you want to biatch at someone about the plight of the Palestinians biatch at the Jordanians who oppress 70% of their population (Palestinians) because they know they stole their country. Heck Jordan is refusing entry to Palestinians fleeing Syria while allowing everyone else safe haven in Jordan. Palestine = Jordan :: Palestine ≠ Israel

1948 boundaries. That is all.

To be honest I don't give a flying fark what the UN has to say, nor the international community, they can all suck my big toe. Lets play a numbers game As of 2010 Israel's Palestinian population was ~20%... Jordan's Palestinian population is ~70%... so Palestinians are the majority in Jordan... so that makes Jordan a Palestinian Country, so Palestinians should rule Jordan (but they are violently oppressed, far worse than anything Israel has ever done). So solution to problem is for Jordan to become the Palestinian homeland (like the original UN plan... which I don't even care about), Palestinians from all over the world including Israel can then decide if they wish to live there. Israel will have their land, including the West Bank and the Palestinians can have all of Jordan. Given the numbers this plan is much more fair to both sides, Israel keeps their small amount of land in the middle east and Palestine gets a very large area where they are currently already the majority. The Hebrew nation and the Palestinian Nation, two Semitic nations, the perfect two state solution.


I often hear Americans making this similar argument...only the problem is this...if say the US government decided they were going to give a bunch of land back to the Native Americans in some political appeasement move, and your land was among that being given away...would you leave it peacefully, despite being offered no compensation?

Probably not.

And when those Native Americans came to take your house and live on your land, would you just walk away and forget about it?

Probably not.

In fact, you'd probably devote a lot of your time to trying to drive those Native Americans back off your land, the land that was given to them by a government that had no right to give it to them.

And they'd probably label you a 'terrorist'. And after a few decades passed, people would forget that you're just fighting against a great injustice that was done to you, and they'd forget that you're the good guy in the situation. And then you really would be a 'terrorist'.

And then when people on a Fark thread suggest you just suck it up and go live somewhere else where there are lots of other WASPS to keep you company, how do you think you'd react to that?

Do you think you would EVER just drop it, and let those people get away with stealing your land? Your families land?

Probably not.

You folks can throw the anti-semetic race card around all you want, but the simple truth of the matter is, you're not the good guys in the Palestinia/Israeli conflict. You're the aggressor. You came in after WWII, guns blazing, and you chased innocent people out of the homes they built, from their land, and you did it all on the basis of an extremely flimsy, and legally ludicrous argument - 'we used to live here thousands of years ago.'

Well, the Native Americans lived in Texas thousands of years before Texans did. Does that give them the legal right to drive everyone in Texas out of their homes under threat of murder?

Yeah, I didn't think so.
 
2012-07-24 04:11:32 PM

ChipNASA: [planetlibertaria.files.wordpress.com image 533x800]


Is that William Shatner? It would be funny if it were, since he's a Jew.
 
2012-07-24 04:25:58 PM

glassbottomboatcaptain: Eshkar: XveryYpettyZ: Eshkar: Why don't you create them a state in Montana or some where like that... considering the Palestinian "refuge" population in the US... that is essentially what you are asking Israel to do. What we call Jordan is actually Palestine. If you want to biatch at someone about the plight of the Palestinians biatch at the Jordanians who oppress 70% of their population (Palestinians) because they know they stole their country. Heck Jordan is refusing entry to Palestinians fleeing Syria while allowing everyone else safe haven in Jordan. Palestine = Jordan :: Palestine ≠ Israel

1948 boundaries. That is all.

To be honest I don't give a flying fark what the UN has to say, nor the international community, they can all suck my big toe. Lets play a numbers game As of 2010 Israel's Palestinian population was ~20%... Jordan's Palestinian population is ~70%... so Palestinians are the majority in Jordan... so that makes Jordan a Palestinian Country, so Palestinians should rule Jordan (but they are violently oppressed, far worse than anything Israel has ever done). So solution to problem is for Jordan to become the Palestinian homeland (like the original UN plan... which I don't even care about), Palestinians from all over the world including Israel can then decide if they wish to live there. Israel will have their land, including the West Bank and the Palestinians can have all of Jordan. Given the numbers this plan is much more fair to both sides, Israel keeps their small amount of land in the middle east and Palestine gets a very large area where they are currently already the majority. The Hebrew nation and the Palestinian Nation, two Semitic nations, the perfect two state solution.

I often hear Americans making this similar argument...only the problem is this...if say the US government decided they were going to give a bunch of land back to the Native Americans in some political appeasement move, and your land was among that being given away...would y ...


See your argument would be fine but you forgot about all the Jews that lived in what is now modern Israel before WW2... there were a lot. The people that are now refereed to as Palestinians weren't there for a long time, they were relocated to the area that is now modern Israel by the Turkish government and then later supported by an anti-Jewish British ruling military. They left Israel because the Arab countries that attacked Israel and got their asses kicked told them to leave and they could come back after they beat Israel. So we didn't kick anyone out, they left on their own... we just aren't letting them back in. Many of the ones that stayed enjoy full Israeli citizenship. The land isn't theirs. But a moot point really, Israel has it now, and honestly I don't think Israel is going to let anyone take it again.
 
2012-07-24 04:27:24 PM

Eshkar: El Pachuco: [t2.gstatic.com image 105x120]

I get it, the writer claims to be a comedian so presumably that was supposed to be funny somehow.

He is a very funny comedian in Israel; I quite enjoy his humor.

rudemix: Painfully unfunny and forced humor over a minor slight. Prove this was less an error by some net geek and focused anti-semitism you idiot, otherwise you are no less a douche than you claim the BBC to be.

Keep up with news, this has been an ongoing scandal, they originally didn't have any capital listed for Israel and then did this shiat; now the Prime Minsiter's office has sent them a letter demanding it changed to Jerusalem as the Capital and they have so far refused.

varmitydog: I can easily see how the BBC could arrive at such a conclusion. In purely economic terms the American Congress in Washington funds Israel, so they can't really be sure whether the Israeli capital is Jerusalem or Washington DC. They are just being cautious here.

Do me a favor... get your facts straight you clot pole before you open your ignorant mouth. Israel receives only a small percentage of their national income from the US. The US is the one that insist on giving Israel money; Israel hasn't even spent most of the money the US has given it in the past few years. Israel is self sufficient and able to fully protect itself. The majority of new tech is being created in Israel; all the nice toys you have wouldn't be here if it weren't for Israel.

On another note, United Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel, there really isn't anything anyone can do about it; write your strongly worded letters and write your angry blog post about it; it won't change anything. Israel is here to stay, get used to it; the 2000 years of deeply seated antisemitism based on religious intolerance (yes even in you agnostics and atheist, you have been contaminated by 2000+ years of Christian hate, you may not realize it but your biased against Israel is actually rooted in a social norm of deep seated ...


Christian hate? Check your facts. Nobody loves Israel more than fire-breathing Baptist preachers.
 
2012-07-24 04:32:39 PM

ZombiesYall: Eshkar: El Pachuco: [t2.gstatic.com image 105x120]

I get it, the writer claims to be a comedian so presumably that was supposed to be funny somehow.

He is a very funny comedian in Israel; I quite enjoy his humor.

rudemix: Painfully unfunny and forced humor over a minor slight. Prove this was less an error by some net geek and focused anti-semitism you idiot, otherwise you are no less a douche than you claim the BBC to be.

Keep up with news, this has been an ongoing scandal, they originally didn't have any capital listed for Israel and then did this shiat; now the Prime Minsiter's office has sent them a letter demanding it changed to Jerusalem as the Capital and they have so far refused.

varmitydog: I can easily see how the BBC could arrive at such a conclusion. In purely economic terms the American Congress in Washington funds Israel, so they can't really be sure whether the Israeli capital is Jerusalem or Washington DC. They are just being cautious here.

Do me a favor... get your facts straight you clot pole before you open your ignorant mouth. Israel receives only a small percentage of their national income from the US. The US is the one that insist on giving Israel money; Israel hasn't even spent most of the money the US has given it in the past few years. Israel is self sufficient and able to fully protect itself. The majority of new tech is being created in Israel; all the nice toys you have wouldn't be here if it weren't for Israel.

On another note, United Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel, there really isn't anything anyone can do about it; write your strongly worded letters and write your angry blog post about it; it won't change anything. Israel is here to stay, get used to it; the 2000 years of deeply seated antisemitism based on religious intolerance (yes even in you agnostics and atheist, you have been contaminated by 2000+ years of Christian hate, you may not realize it but your biased against Israel is actually rooted in a social norm of deep ...



No they don't love Israel... they just like that Israel exist so Jesus can come back. They support Israel so their apocalyptic fantasy's can come true.
I don't hate Christians, I just dislike that for over 2000 years they have a bad habit of killing us... chasing my family out of Spain... you know the norm for the past 2000 years.
 
2012-07-24 04:40:12 PM

Eshkar: No they don't love Israel... they just like that Israel exist so Jesus can come back. They support Israel so their apocalyptic fantasy's can come true.
I don't hate Christians, I just dislike that for over 2000 years they have a bad habit of killing us... chasing my family out of Spain... you know the norm for the past 2000 years.


My goodness, aren't you dramatic. Maybe I should trot out the generations of victimhood my family endured from being chased out of France for being Protestant to being chased out of the Volga river valley for being German. I've got it, why don't we vomit up all the injustice that was done centuries in the past (Spain? Really? The reconquista was 520 years ago... but hey, it's "the norm" right?) and use it as a prism to view the world. In this victim world it doesn't matter what wrongs I do to others because they're justified by wrongs done to my nominal ancestors whom I never met.

/Or, you know, I could grow up and live in 2012 without the dramatic bullshiat.
 
2012-07-24 04:41:27 PM

glassbottomboatcaptain: Eshkar: XveryYpettyZ: Eshkar: Why don't you create them a state in Montana or some where like that... considering the Palestinian "refuge" population in the US... that is essentially what you are asking Israel to do. What we call Jordan is actually Palestine. If you want to biatch at someone about the plight of the Palestinians biatch at the Jordanians who oppress 70% of their population (Palestinians) because they know they stole their country. Heck Jordan is refusing entry to Palestinians fleeing Syria while allowing everyone else safe haven in Jordan. Palestine = Jordan :: Palestine ≠ Israel

1948 boundaries. That is all.

To be honest I don't give a flying fark what the UN has to say, nor the international community, they can all suck my big toe. Lets play a numbers game As of 2010 Israel's Palestinian population was ~20%... Jordan's Palestinian population is ~70%... so Palestinians are the majority in Jordan... so that makes Jordan a Palestinian Country, so Palestinians should rule Jordan (but they are violently oppressed, far worse than anything Israel has ever done). So solution to problem is for Jordan to become the Palestinian homeland (like the original UN plan... which I don't even care about), Palestinians from all over the world including Israel can then decide if they wish to live there. Israel will have their land, including the West Bank and the Palestinians can have all of Jordan. Given the numbers this plan is much more fair to both sides, Israel keeps their small amount of land in the middle east and Palestine gets a very large area where they are currently already the majority. The Hebrew nation and the Palestinian Nation, two Semitic nations, the perfect two state solution.

I often hear Americans making this similar argument...only the problem is this...if say the US government decided they were going to give a bunch of land back to the Native Americans in some political appeasement move, and your land was among that being given away...would y ...


Bravo. I'm going to love seeing the response to this.

I'm just going to add one thing:

MAHATMA GANDHI ON THE CREATION OF ISRAEL

My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.

But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and in-human to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.

The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French. If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled? Or do they want a double home where they can remain at will? This cry for the national home affords a colourable justification for the German expulsion of the Jews.

...And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart.... (November 1938)

Source^
 
2012-07-24 04:43:35 PM
Writer sounds like hes got a stick up his butt.
 
2012-07-24 05:06:35 PM

SkunkWerks: Israeli Geography:

Serious.

@#*&ing.

Business.


Lol.. this...

I mean.... seriously.. Who the fark cares?
 
2012-07-24 05:09:10 PM

Mrtraveler01: Magorn: rgo Israel, under international law has no valid legal claim to Jerusalem, only a sentimental one. This is one of the reasons they've tried so very hard to ethnically cleanse East Jerusalem so they can claim the city is basically all Israeli anyway so why not "recognize the reality on the ground" -more or less the same argument they use everytime they steal more land for their "settlers"

Yeah, I mean I believe Israel has the right to exist as much as any other country but it's dickish things like this (ie: evicting Palestinians from their homes and then bulldozing their homes for yet another settlement) which make it really hard for me to defend them when they keep doing dickish things like that.

Is this a reasonable position to take?


Yes.
 
2012-07-24 05:12:30 PM

lumiere: Bravo. I'm going to love seeing the response to this.

I'm just going to add one thing:

MAHATMA GANDHI ON THE CREATION OF ISRAEL

My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.

But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and in-human to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.

The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French. If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled? Or do they want a double home where they ca ...




Nice, but Gandhi missed something very important, and sadly incorrectly applied his salutation on the Palestinians. The Jewish people aren't just a religious group as he implied in his closing, they are an ethnic group that was driven from their homeland. He also forgot that what is modern day Israel before the 1900's was a sparsely populated and sparsely cared about area, Jerusalem was the only place of concern to the Islamic rulers who constantly changed it from one hand to another, and Jerusalem was heavily neglected, they only liked saying they owned it, they didn't care about it. The only times in History where Israel became anything of importance was when the original owners (the Hebrew People) tried to take it back. So it's nice that Gandhi had Jewish friends; but his commentary was skewed by his own problems, his view of the Jewish people as a religious group and not an Ethnic group, and evident lack of historical context. Just as with the UN... I don't really care what Gandhi had to say about Israel.

But if you want qoutes from famous men... how about these:

John Adams
Farther I could find it in my heart to wish that you had been at the head of a hundred thousand Israelites . . . & marching with them into Judea & making a conquest of that country & restoring your nation to the dominion of it. For I really wish the Jews again in Judea an independent nation. (Letter to Mordecai Manuel Noah, 1819) 1



John Quincy Adams

[I believe in the] rebuilding of Judea as an independent nation. (Letter to Major Mordecai Manuel Noah)



Abraham Lincoln

Not long after the Emancipation Proclamation, President Abraham Lincoln met a Canadian Christian Zionist, Henry Wentworth Monk, who expressed hope that Jews who were suffering oppression in Russia and Turkey be emancipated "by restoring them to their national home in Palestine." Lincoln said this was "a noble dream and one shared by many Americans." The President said his chiropodist was a Jew who "has so many times 'put me upon my feet' that I would have no objection to giving his countrymen 'a leg up.'"

These men knew who lived in the area of Modern day Israel during their time... and they wanted the Jews to take Israel... Even the great Abe Lincoln.
 
2012-07-24 05:14:46 PM

PonceAlyosha: Any my citation of the Justice Department backs it up. Congress doesn't have the power to do make decisions like that.


That is the Justice Department's assertion, just because they claim that doesn't actually make it true. The US Supreme Court will have to decide who is right and who is wrong.
 
2012-07-24 05:15:21 PM

liverpoolumd: SkunkWerks: Israeli Geography:

Serious.

@#*&ing.

Business.

Lol.. this...

I mean.... seriously.. Who the fark cares?


The tens of thousands of people who have been fighting over it for several decades?
 
2012-07-24 05:22:54 PM

Eshkar: Ohlookabutterfly: Fart_Machine: Blogger whining about BBC comes off like a Ritalin addicted 13 year old complaining about people dissing dub step.

Every time I read something like this I visualize that farked up karate kid from Smokin Aces.

Is there a Jew alive who isn't a professional victim? Maybe you Christ killers would be more popular if you didn't have such an "us or them" attitude. Acknowledge that all people are equal, and realize anti-semitism isn't racism because you aren't a race. You segregate yourselves by religion and it's silly as well as self-destructive. ENOUGH WHINING already, oy vey.

Actually we are a Ethnic group within the Semitic race you bigot. Genetic testing has proven that over and over again. You just like to say we are so you feel better about your bigotry because it is ok to dislike a religion but not a race / ethnic group. We are a ethnic group within the Semitic race, we just happen to have a religion as well. Next you will be telling people from India they are really just Hindus and aren't a separate race.


Where did I say anything even remotely bigotted? You are not a race, you are a group of people who believe you are "chosen" and somehow better than all other peoples. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. But you go ahead and call anyone who disagrees with you an anti-semite, bigot or racist. Just because the words come from you're mouth that must make them fact. Heck, while your at it why not throw in troll and homophobe if we are going to start misusing labels out of ignorance. Tell me, why is it you have the words goyem and shiksa but there is no word in my language for "not male Canadian christian"? That sums up why people don't like you, you have words that mean "not jew(male)" and "not jew(female)".
 
2012-07-24 05:23:23 PM

Eshkar: PonceAlyosha: Any my citation of the Justice Department backs it up. Congress doesn't have the power to do make decisions like that.

That is the Justice Department's assertion, just because they claim that doesn't actually make it true. The US Supreme Court will have to decide who is right and who is wrong.


Exactly... but they don't decide to rule on things, they have to be BROUGHT cases. If nobody is bringing them the case, what does that tell you? Neither side is willing to risk the erosion of power that actually adjudicating the dispute might involve, if the SCOTUS rules against them. So your assertion that it IS ILLEGAL... is wrong. Nobody wants to test it, so it stands as-is.
 
2012-07-24 05:30:31 PM

Ohlookabutterfly: Eshkar: Ohlookabutterfly: Fart_Machine: Blogger whining about BBC comes off like a Ritalin addicted 13 year old complaining about people dissing dub step.

Every time I read something like this I visualize that farked up karate kid from Smokin Aces.

Is there a Jew alive who isn't a professional victim? Maybe you Christ killers would be more popular if you didn't have such an "us or them" attitude. Acknowledge that all people are equal, and realize anti-semitism isn't racism because you aren't a race. You segregate yourselves by religion and it's silly as well as self-destructive. ENOUGH WHINING already, oy vey.

Actually we are a Ethnic group within the Semitic race you bigot. Genetic testing has proven that over and over again. You just like to say we are so you feel better about your bigotry because it is ok to dislike a religion but not a race / ethnic group. We are a ethnic group within the Semitic race, we just happen to have a religion as well. Next you will be telling people from India they are really just Hindus and aren't a separate race.

Where did I say anything even remotely bigotted? You are not a race, you are a group of people who believe you are "chosen" and somehow better than all other peoples. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. But you go ahead and call anyone who disagrees with you an anti-semite, bigot or racist. Just because the words come from you're mouth that must make them fact. Heck, while your at it why not throw in troll and homophobe if we are going to start misusing labels out of ignorance. Tell me, why is it you have the words goyem and shiksa but there is no word in my language for "not male Canadian christian"? That sums up why people don't like you, you have words that mean "not jew(male)" and "not jew(female)".


Actually I called you a Bigot. You called us Christ Killers, and justified hatred... you are a bigot... so stfu your going to be late for your klan meeting.
 
2012-07-24 05:32:13 PM

XveryYpettyZ: Eshkar: PonceAlyosha: Any my citation of the Justice Department backs it up. Congress doesn't have the power to do make decisions like that.

That is the Justice Department's assertion, just because they claim that doesn't actually make it true. The US Supreme Court will have to decide who is right and who is wrong.

Exactly... but they don't decide to rule on things, they have to be BROUGHT cases. If nobody is bringing them the case, what does that tell you? Neither side is willing to risk the erosion of power that actually adjudicating the dispute might involve, if the SCOTUS rules against them. So your assertion that it IS ILLEGAL... is wrong. Nobody wants to test it, so it stands as-is.


It's not just my assertion.. many members of Congress share that assertion.
 
2012-07-24 05:33:15 PM

Magorn: Ergo Israel, under international law has no valid legal claim to Jerusalem, only a sentimental one. This is one of the reasons they've tried so very hard to ethnically cleanse East Jerusalem so they can claim the city is basically all Israeli anyway so why not "recognize the reality on the ground" -more or less the same argument they use everytime they steal more land for their "settlers


Couldn't you say that about anywhere?
 
2012-07-24 05:47:04 PM

Eshkar: El Pachuco: Eshkar: cc_rider: You know who else doesn't officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?

Us.

Actually the US does. The Jerusalem Embassy Act which went into effect Nov. 8 1995, which calls for the US Embassy to be moved to Jerusalem does recognize the undivided city of Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. It just so happens that every US President since it was passed into law has illegally refused to enforce this law. So yes the US does recognize the undivided city of Jerusalem as the Capital of the State of Israel. (if the Jews and Israel have so much control over the US why hasn't a US President implemented this law... because we don't and it's an antisemitic delusion... now go put on your foil hats (not directed at person I was responding to))

The CIA's Factbook disagrees with you. The US does not officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital.

As for the Jerusalem Embassy Act, Wikipedia sez: Since passage, the law has never been implemented, because of opposition from Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama, who view it as a Congressional infringement on the executive branch's constitutional authority over foreign policy; they have consistently claimed the presidential waiver on national security interests.

These are very easy to fact check. Why didn't you?

Just because the President doesn't like a law doesn't give him the right to ignore it. The CIA answers to the President. The US Congress has final say on all Foreign policy and has the right to overrule the President. Hence the reason Congress has to declare wars and ratify treaties. The Presidents since this law was passed and ratified by Congress have illegally chosen not to obey a Law passed by congress. But hey I am glad you can make reference and "fact" checking via wikipedia. If my past college professors wouldn't accept it as a source neither will I.



From the U.S. State Department website: "Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950. The United States, like nearly all other countries, maintains its embassy in Tel Aviv."
Link

To the best of my knowledge, the US government has never recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in any official capacity. Obviously you know, the legality of the 1995 congressional bill has been disputed by all three administrations since, and unless you are a Constitutional lawyer, I am guessing that you are not an authority on what is legal or not legal in our foreign policy making decisions. I only say this, because you mention wikipedia being an untrusted source, and "because some random person on the internet said so" is even lower on the ladder of trusted sources, in my book.
 
2012-07-24 05:55:09 PM

cc_rider: Eshkar: El Pachuco: Eshkar: cc_rider: To the best of my knowledge, the US government has never recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in any official capacity. Obviously you know, the legality of the 1995 congressional bill has been disputed by all three administrations since, and unless you are a Constitutional lawyer, I am guessing that you are not an authority on what is legal or not legal in our foreign policy making decisions. I only say this, because you mention wikipedia being an untrusted source, and "because some random person on the internet said so" is even lower on the ladder of trusted sources, in my book.


He seems determined to ignore the fact that he's trying to make us accept his uncited claims as fact while claiming his own privilege to offhandedly dismiss our cited references. Wonder how many arguments he thinks he can win doing that?
 
2012-07-24 06:01:41 PM

cc_rider: Eshkar: El Pachuco: Eshkar: cc_rider: You know who else doesn't officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel?

Us.

Actually the US does. The Jerusalem Embassy Act which went into effect Nov. 8 1995, which calls for the US Embassy to be moved to Jerusalem does recognize the undivided city of Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel. It just so happens that every US President since it was passed into law has illegally refused to enforce this law. So yes the US does recognize the undivided city of Jerusalem as the Capital of the State of Israel. (if the Jews and Israel have so much control over the US why hasn't a US President implemented this law... because we don't and it's an antisemitic delusion... now go put on your foil hats (not directed at person I was responding to))

The CIA's Factbook disagrees with you. The US does not officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital.

As for the Jerusalem Embassy Act, Wikipedia sez: Since passage, the law has never been implemented, because of opposition from Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama, who view it as a Congressional infringement on the executive branch's constitutional authority over foreign policy; they have consistently claimed the presidential waiver on national security interests.

These are very easy to fact check. Why didn't you?

Just because the President doesn't like a law doesn't give him the right to ignore it. The CIA answers to the President. The US Congress has final say on all Foreign policy and has the right to overrule the President. Hence the reason Congress has to declare wars and ratify treaties. The Presidents since this law was passed and ratified by Congress have illegally chosen not to obey a Law passed by congress. But hey I am glad you can make reference and "fact" checking via wikipedia. If my past college professors wouldn't accept it as a source neither will I.


From the U.S. State Department website: "Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950. The United States, like ne ...


The US Congress has, it just hasn't been enacted. So we have to wait for the US Supreme Court to weigh in on this. So get over it, Jerusalem is our Capital, if I had my way I would kick out any country that refused to place their embassy in Jerusalem.
 
2012-07-24 06:08:24 PM

El Pachuco: cc_rider: Eshkar: El Pachuco: Eshkar: cc_rider: To the best of my knowledge, the US government has never recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in any official capacity. Obviously you know, the legality of the 1995 congressional bill has been disputed by all three administrations since, and unless you are a Constitutional lawyer, I am guessing that you are not an authority on what is legal or not legal in our foreign policy making decisions. I only say this, because you mention wikipedia being an untrusted source, and "because some random person on the internet said so" is even lower on the ladder of trusted sources, in my book.

He seems determined to ignore the fact that he's trying to make us accept his uncited claims as fact while claiming his own privilege to offhandedly dismiss our cited references. Wonder how many arguments he thinks he can win doing that?


ROFLMAO... you think anyone ever wins an argument... roflmao. Your just mad because I don't like Wikipedia.
 
2012-07-24 06:14:57 PM

Eshkar: El Pachuco: cc_rider: Eshkar: El Pachuco: Eshkar: cc_rider: To the best of my knowledge, the US government has never recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in any official capacity. Obviously you know, the legality of the 1995 congressional bill has been disputed by all three administrations since, and unless you are a Constitutional lawyer, I am guessing that you are not an authority on what is legal or not legal in our foreign policy making decisions. I only say this, because you mention wikipedia being an untrusted source, and "because some random person on the internet said so" is even lower on the ladder of trusted sources, in my book.

He seems determined to ignore the fact that he's trying to make us accept his uncited claims as fact while claiming his own privilege to offhandedly dismiss our cited references. Wonder how many arguments he thinks he can win doing that?

ROFLMAO... you think anyone ever wins an argument... roflmao. Your just mad because I don't like Wikipedia.


I'm not mad at all - you're just embarrassing yourself by categorically dismissing one of the most commonly used sources here in Fark discussions, made especially awkward by your own complete lack of any cited references. That's because Wikipedia itself provides links to its sources. And yes, an online discussion does not require the same detail of direct references as a graduate thesis - go figure.

Wake up - it's 2012, not 2004. The "hurr durr Wikipedia is always wrong" thing no longer works.
 
2012-07-24 06:19:53 PM
That's the most gym in 26 minutes article I have seen in awhile.
 
2012-07-24 06:25:17 PM

El Pachuco: Eshkar: El Pachuco: cc_rider: Eshkar: El Pachuco: Eshkar: cc_rider: To the best of my knowledge, the US government has never recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in any official capacity. Obviously you know, the legality of the 1995 congressional bill has been disputed by all three administrations since, and unless you are a Constitutional lawyer, I am guessing that you are not an authority on what is legal or not legal in our foreign policy making decisions. I only say this, because you mention wikipedia being an untrusted source, and "because some random person on the internet said so" is even lower on the ladder of trusted sources, in my book.

He seems determined to ignore the fact that he's trying to make us accept his uncited claims as fact while claiming his own privilege to offhandedly dismiss our cited references. Wonder how many arguments he thinks he can win doing that?

ROFLMAO... you think anyone ever wins an argument... roflmao. Your just mad because I don't like Wikipedia.

I'm not mad at all - you're just embarrassing yourself by categorically dismissing one of the most commonly used sources here in Fark discussions, made especially awkward by your own complete lack of any cited references. That's because Wikipedia itself provides links to its sources. And yes, an online discussion does not require the same detail of direct references as a graduate thesis - go figure.

Wake up - it's 2012, not 2004. The "hurr durr Wikipedia is always wrong" thing no longer works.


Your embarrassing yourself continuing on this constant rant... move on you have run completely off topic. Jerusalem is Israel's capital; Benji Lovitt is hilarious, this article was great.
 
2012-07-24 06:26:38 PM

Eshkar:
Did I say anything about Ethnic cleansing or forced relocation? No I said once the Palestinians have gained control of Jordan the Palestinians throughout the world could then decide if they wanted to move there... they could decide. I didn't say Israel would force them. I did say that Israel would remain Israel.. .all of Israel including the West bank. Ripping your country apart for ~20% of your population is ridiculous.


OK, I'm calling Poe.

Any actual Israeli would be acutely aware that 20% is just the proportion of Arab Israelis. That's about 1.5M people (for roughly 7.5M Israelis). It does not include actual Palestinians (i.e. the people who actually live in the West Bank and Gaza).

If you add in the Palestinians, you get another 3.7M Arabs. Leading to a total of 5.2M Arabs out of ~11.5M people living in Israel+Palestine. AKA about 45%, not 20%.

A large minority that is expected to become an actual majority pretty soon, BTW. Hence the frenzied attempts at somehow cutting up some kind of Bantustan out of Palestine, in which a maximum of Arabs could packed into a minimum amount of land.

As another poster pointed out, there's no way Israel can have all three of 1-keeping the land, 2-remaining Jewish/Hebrew, and 3-remaining a democracy. They can pick any 2 out of these 3. How it will end up is anyone's guess.
 
2012-07-24 06:33:22 PM
The BBC is just following UK government policy. Canada doesn't recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital either. It seems like a minor issue but this is the kind of leverage the international community has to try to force Israel to the negotiating table to settle with the Palestinians, and a blog post photoshopping the finger onto Britain is not going to convince them to give up any of the very few cards they can play here.
 
2012-07-24 06:40:06 PM

Eshkar:

The US Congress has, it just hasn't been enacted. So we have to wait for the US Supreme Court to weigh in on this. So get over it, Jerusalem is our Capital, if I had my way I would kick out any country that refused to place their embassy in Jerusalem.


Er, "get over it?" There's nothing to get over. I was simply stating a fact. That we do not officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital. In fact, you cannot even get a US passport that gives your birthplace as "Jerusalem, Israel". Sounds like you need to get over something: yourself.

I was also kind of curious on what expertise you based your allegation that the past three different presidential administrations have been acting "illegally". I believe that question now has been answered.

To think, all this shiat over some stupid article with a misleading headline. :/
 
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