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(Talking Points Memo)   MSNBC and Fox News are "nothing alike." Shockingly, this had to be explained to someone   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 177
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2008 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Jul 2012 at 1:01 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-23 11:11:54 AM  
MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.
 
2012-07-23 11:17:11 AM  
Chris Hayes' show is the best political show on television.

And MSNBC and Fox are not different sides of the same coin.
 
2012-07-23 11:31:52 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Chris Hayes' show is the best political show on television for those that prefer a liberal slant to their news. Much like Sean Hannity is the best political show on television for those that prefer a conservative slant to their news.

 
2012-07-23 11:34:58 AM  

WTF Indeed: Dusk-You-n-Me: Chris Hayes' show is the best political show on television for those that prefer a liberal slant to their news. Much like Sean Hannity is the best political show on television for those that prefer a conservative slant to their news.


Watch the show. Facts aren't liberal, they're the center.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-23 11:38:30 AM  

WTF Indeed: MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.


That might be true for the opinion programing, but NBC still tries to maintain journalistic integrity for it's actual news and analysis parts. Most Fox viewers don't even recognize the distinction.
 
2012-07-23 11:46:08 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: MSNBC and Fox are not different sides of the same coin.


No, they're not.

The idea that they are is a myth that right-wingnuts tell themselves, so they can sleep at night. Everything's balanced. Everything's equal. FOX is a partisan propaganda machine, but it's okay, because the liberals do it, too. In fact, the very presence of a radical network like MSNBC necessitates the existence of FOX, in order to keep that balance. This is what Republicans actually believe.

And why do they think that MSNBC are radical leftists? Because when you're standing at the extreme edge of the right wing of the spectrum, everybody to the left of you will appear to be wildly liberal, even the moderates who are way, way over there.
 
2012-07-23 11:47:02 AM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Watch the show. Facts aren't liberal, they're the center.


I have watched the show. It is a replacement for Keith Olbermann, and while I enjoy watching morons getting lambasted by a TV presenter, breaking down the arguments of Teabaggers is the debate equivalent of beating up a 10 year old. Saying that show, or any political show on either MSNBC or Fox News is "the best political show on television" automatically means it's the best from a certain point of view.

If you want thoughtful, insightful political discussion on education level above that of a high-schooler I would suggest GPS on CNN Sunday mornings at 10am.
 
2012-07-23 11:48:45 AM  

WTF Indeed: I have watched the show. It is a replacement for Keith Olbermann, and while I enjoy watching morons getting lambasted by a TV presenter, breaking down the arguments of Teabaggers is the debate equivalent of beating up a 10 year old.


You must be watching a different show than I am.
 
2012-07-23 11:53:32 AM  

WTF Indeed: MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.


If that were the case then MSNBC would be regularly appending (R) to the names of Democrats caught in scandals, or outright lying about the actual effects of legislation, or having their news programs refer to their commentary programs as sources in the vein of "some people are saying...", or any number of other extremely partisan things FOX News does. If they are two sides of the same coin, then FOX news is the right side, MSNBC is the outside, and the as-of-yet non-existent liberal propaganda news network is the left side.
 
2012-07-23 11:53:57 AM  
breaking down the arguments of Teabaggers is the debate equivalent of beating up a 10 year old.

So they aren't equivalent.

As you point out one is pushing an agenda so visibly farking retarded that it ranks at the level of a ten year old.
 
2012-07-23 11:55:45 AM  

WTF Indeed: MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.


I knew someone would immediately say that. Even if you thought MSNBC is liberal, they aren't nearly as cartooinshly partisan as Fox. I think you know that.
 
2012-07-23 11:57:38 AM  

Elandriel: If that were the case then MSNBC would be regularly appending (R) to the names of Democrats caught in scandals, or outright lying about the actual effects of legislation, or having their news programs refer to their commentary programs as sources in the vein of "some people are saying...", or any number of other extremely partisan things FOX News does. If they are two sides of the same coin, then FOX news is the right side, MSNBC is the outside, and the as-of-yet non-existent liberal propaganda news network is the left side.


Tigger: As you point out one is pushing an agenda so visibly farking retarded that it ranks at the level of a ten year old.


So your argument as to why MSNBC isn't like Fox News is that Fox News has been at it longer and is better at it, therefore they are nothing alike?
 
2012-07-23 12:03:15 PM  

WTF Indeed: MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.


That's enough sensible talk around here.
 
2012-07-23 12:04:20 PM  

Mugato: I knew someone would immediately say that. Even if you thought MSNBC is liberal, they aren't nearly as cartooinshly partisan as Fox. I think you know that.


They both play by the same rules, produce the same type of shows, and have the same business model. One says conservative ideas while destroying liberal ones. The other says liberal ideas while destroying conservative ones. If you despise one, you love the other. Such is the adversarial nature of politics as it currently resides, making it so both sides have to be hated and distrusted so that no real advancement can be done. Saying, "We're better than them because we don't do it as much as them!" is like a druggie looking at an even bigger druggie and saying "Wow, I am so better than THAT guy."
 
2012-07-23 12:07:42 PM  

WTF Indeed: Elandriel: If that were the case then MSNBC would be regularly appending (R) to the names of Democrats caught in scandals, or outright lying about the actual effects of legislation, or having their news programs refer to their commentary programs as sources in the vein of "some people are saying...", or any number of other extremely partisan things FOX News does. If they are two sides of the same coin, then FOX news is the right side, MSNBC is the outside, and the as-of-yet non-existent liberal propaganda news network is the left side.

Tigger: As you point out one is pushing an agenda so visibly farking retarded that it ranks at the level of a ten year old.

So your argument as to why MSNBC isn't like Fox News is that Fox News has been at it longer and is better at it, therefore they are nothing alike?


Are you...are you trolling or something? What's your angle here? You know damn well there's no equivalence between the two networks.

Just, wow. Wow man! You've disappointed me.
 
2012-07-23 12:08:00 PM  

WTF Indeed: Elandriel: If that were the case then MSNBC would be regularly appending (R) to the names of Democrats caught in scandals, or outright lying about the actual effects of legislation, or having their news programs refer to their commentary programs as sources in the vein of "some people are saying...", or any number of other extremely partisan things FOX News does. If they are two sides of the same coin, then FOX news is the right side, MSNBC is the outside, and the as-of-yet non-existent liberal propaganda news network is the left side.

Tigger: As you point out one is pushing an agenda so visibly farking retarded that it ranks at the level of a ten year old.

So your argument as to why MSNBC isn't like Fox News is that Fox News has been at it longer and is better at it, therefore they are nothing alike?


It is abundantly clear that that wasn't my argument.

If you believe that the two are equivalent then you are implicitly stating that a center left viewpoint is as retarded as a ten year old and/or Teabagger viewpoint.

If you believe that MSNBC is as far left as Fox is right you rather sacrifice your ability to be taken seriously.
 
2012-07-23 12:12:12 PM  

WTF Indeed: They both play by the same rules


No, they do not. This is entirely the point.

MSNBC suspended Keith Olbermann for donating to Democratic candidates. Fox News does not have a policy with regards to their hosts donating to candidates.

Sean Hannity to MichelePAC - $500
SarahPAC to Joe Miller -$10K
" " to Lisa Murkowski - $5K
" " to John McCain - $5K
" " to Tim Griffin - $3.5K
" " to Carly Fiornia - $2.5K
" " to Tim Rooney - $1K
Huckabee to Doug Matayo - $2.4K
" to Beth Anne Parkin - $2.4K
" to Daniel Webster - $2.4K
" to Curtis Coleman - $2.3K
Neil Cavuto to GWB - $1K

And that doesn't even get into Hannity headlining an NRCC banquet for Kasich where they raised $7M. Or Palin or Huckabee headlining GOP fundraisers. Or explicitly endorsing candidates on their shows. Or, on their shows, literally asking the candidate "How can I help you raise money?"

MSNBC is a news organization. Fox News is a political organization. Anyone who can't see that has their own bias they need to deal with.
 
2012-07-23 12:20:42 PM  
I see this thread was hopelessly derailed with the standard both sides are bad derp.
 
2012-07-23 12:24:37 PM  
Okay folks, I see that none of you understand the concept of a "business model", therefore let me bring this down MSNBC/FOX News viewer level. At their core, both stations have the same business model, much like Wal-mart and K-mart have the same business model. And just like Wal-Mart and K-mart, one is more profitable and larger than the other. I am saying they are both the same business model with Fox News being larger and more powerful. You are saying, they aren't the same business model because Fox News is larger and more powerful. Using the Wal-mart/K-mart analogy, I am saying both of them are discount retailers with Wal-Mart being larger and more powerful, and you are saying they aren't both discount retailers because Wal-Mart is larger and more powerful.

Do we understand the difference now?
 
2012-07-23 12:26:49 PM  

WTF Indeed: You are saying, they aren't the same business model because Fox News is larger and more powerful.


I haven't said anything about their business model, because it's irrelevant. Which I'm guessing is why you're relying on it for your argument while ignoring the evidence I already posted. But hey, go you.
 
2012-07-23 12:27:42 PM  
WTF Indeed is a completely brainwashed fool.

There is no TV network that is the liberal version of Fox. They shouldn't be allowed to use the word "news" in its name.
 
2012-07-23 12:27:46 PM  

WTF Indeed: I am saying they are both the same business model with Fox News being larger and more powerful.


No, they are more ridiculously sensationalist and partisan than MSNBC, no matter who is more powerful.

Do we understand the difference now?
 
2012-07-23 12:30:48 PM  

WTF Indeed: MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.


Both channels are ultimately businesses. So vote Republican.
 
2012-07-23 12:36:24 PM  

Mugato: No, they are more ridiculously sensationalist and partisan than MSNBC, no matter who is more powerful.


I'm not arguing which is more "ridiculously sensationalist and partisan". I am arguing that they are same business model, and therefore effect the world in the same manner, with Fox News being far superior at it than MSNBC. You are being subjective, I am being objective.
 
2012-07-23 12:37:26 PM  
Has anyone noticed that Rachel Maddow fact checks?
 
2012-07-23 12:40:22 PM  

WTF Indeed: Mugato: No, they are more ridiculously sensationalist and partisan than MSNBC, no matter who is more powerful.

I'm not arguing which is more "ridiculously sensationalist and partisan". I am arguing that they are same business model, and therefore effect the world in the same manner, with Fox News being far superior at it than MSNBC. You are being subjective, I am being objective.


Objectively speaking, WTF Indeed is exactly right. They are both businesses!!! So vote Republican already!!!
 
2012-07-23 12:41:46 PM  

Kevin72: Has anyone noticed that Rachel Maddow fact checks?


And Bill O'Reilly checks that his facts are made up! And because they both get paid for their work, they must be the same.
 
2012-07-23 12:42:58 PM  

Kevin72: Objectively speaking, WTF Indeed is exactly right. They are both businesses!!! So vote Republican already!!!


As a democrat, I would hope the critical thinking skills used in this thread does not cause you to vote Republican. However if it does, can we laugh at you for voting Republican?
 
2012-07-23 12:48:25 PM  

WTF Indeed: Kevin72: Objectively speaking, WTF Indeed is exactly right. They are both businesses!!! So vote Republican already!!!

As a democrat, I would hope the critical thinking skills used in this thread does not cause you to vote Republican. However if it does, can we laugh at you for voting Republican?


The critical thinking skills in this thread have been used by people other than you. Just thought I'd point that out.
 
2012-07-23 12:48:26 PM  

WTF Indeed: Kevin72: Objectively speaking, WTF Indeed is exactly right. They are both businesses!!! So vote Republican already!!!

As a democrat, I would hope the critical thinking skills used in this thread does not cause you to vote Republican. However if it does, can we laugh at you for voting Republican?


Are you McCainDemocrat's alt? I could understand him or her needing a new identity since he or she hasn't been heard from much since 2008.
 
2012-07-23 12:50:03 PM  

WTF Indeed: Okay folks, I see that none of you understand the concept of a "business model", therefore let me bring this down MSNBC/FOX News viewer level. At their core, both stations have the same business model, much like Wal-mart and K-mart have the same business model.


That's kind of a broad statement. On that level, AMC, MTV and SyFy all have the same business models as MSNBC and Fox News.

However, if you look at the content they provide to attract viewership, they're wildly, wildly different. That can be considered different business models. I would consider them to be so.

At that level, the differences between them are fairly obvious: Fox News exists to push a partisan perspective and appeals to a carefully crafted segment of the population. MSNBC tries to present news and information in an entertaining way, and to provide intelligent commentary to put that information in context.
 
2012-07-23 12:56:43 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: The critical thinking skills in this thread have been used by people other than you. Just thought I'd point that out.


I will gladly argue the scope of FNC's message framing and how it effects the political discourse in far more negative manner than MSNBC's message framing. However that conversation is a different one than we are having now. The techniques used to frame the message are the same, FNC just has been using them longer and are far better at them.

Kevin72: Are you McCainDemocrat's alt? I could understand him or her needing a new identity since he or she hasn't been heard from much since 2008.


Of course I'm an alt, because a person who believes in what MSNBC has to say, but disagrees with the manner in which they do it can not possibly exist. It's a lot like a pro-gun rights person not liking the NRA for it's constant political actions.
 
2012-07-23 01:00:28 PM  
Was talking to my boss about how hateful radical right wing radio talk shows are, and he actually said "Well the radical left wing radio talk shows blah, blah, blah." I stopped dead in my tracks and asked him for a left wing radio talk show I could listen to for a "compare and contrast" moment. He finally admitted that were NO left wing radio talk shows in our broadcasting area. We then went on to discuss Fox News and what he thought would be an analogous TV station for the exact opposite. The end result was that, even from a very conservative* person's viewpoint ... there really isn't one.

*I should mention, I said he was very conservative, I did not say he was a moron.
 
2012-07-23 01:00:42 PM  

Lurking Fear: WTF Indeed is a completely brainwashed fool.

There is no TV network that is the liberal version of Fox. They shouldn't be allowed to use the word "news" in its name.


The Daily Show / Colbert Report are, but they admit that it is satire.
 
2012-07-23 01:05:36 PM  

WTF Indeed: I will gladly argue the scope of FNC's message framing and how it effects the political discourse in far more negative manner than MSNBC's message framing. However that conversation is a different one than we are having now. The techniques used to frame the message are the same, FNC just has been using them longer and are far better at them.


Jesus, how many times are you going to repeat the same thing? Being ridiculously over the top in partisan bullshiat to where you make the news organization in Starship Troopers look sane is not being "better at it". It just makes you forfeit all journalistic integrity and look like a joke.

And yes I understand that they have higher ratings but that should make them want to be less carttonish because they have a bigger responsibility.
 
2012-07-23 01:07:41 PM  
They are alike in that nobody watches either of them. They are different in that while liberals don't seem to be bothered by the fact that nobody watches msnbc, conservatives can't handle the fact that nobody watches fox and have come up with all kinds of crackpot ways of trying to claim that fox is enormously popular.
 
2012-07-23 01:07:56 PM  

WTF Indeed: Of course I'm an alt, because a person who believes in what MSNBC has to say, but disagrees with the manner in which they do it can not possibly exist. It's a lot like a pro-gun rights person not liking the NRA for it's constant political actions.


And also, you sound Muslim.
 
2012-07-23 01:08:08 PM  
MSNBC is overtly political like FoxNews is, but while MSNBC can be guilty of faux outrage, I learn far more information watching MSNBC than I do watching Fox. MSNBC often has far more interesting/intelligent guests too.
 
2012-07-23 01:10:23 PM  

theknuckler_33: MSNBC often has far more interesting/intelligent guests too.


Which is why its ratings are lower than FOX's.
 
2012-07-23 01:12:21 PM  

WTF Indeed: If you want thoughtful, insightful political discussion on education level above that of a high-schooler I would suggest GPS on CNN Sunday mornings at 10am.


John King's Fark handle, everybody! Say, has the Supreme Court ruled on Obamacare yet?
 
2012-07-23 01:12:48 PM  

WTF Indeed: MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.


So watch Fox News...
 
2012-07-23 01:15:05 PM  

Lor M. Ipsum: Lurking Fear: WTF Indeed is a completely brainwashed fool.

There is no TV network that is the liberal version of Fox. They shouldn't be allowed to use the word "news" in its name.

The Daily Show / Colbert Report are, but they admit that it is satire.


Colbert and The Daily Show don't spew hate filled lies that are pure propaganda like Fox News. The message underlying the sarcasm is more rational and even handed than MSNBC.
 
2012-07-23 01:15:48 PM  

WTF Indeed: MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.


...so vote Republican?

WTF Indeed: As a democrat, I would hope the critical thinking skills used in this thread does not cause you to vote Republican.


Ah. Well, then.
 
2012-07-23 01:16:15 PM  

Mugato: And yes I understand that they have higher ratings but that should make them want to be less carttonish because they have a bigger responsibility.


I keep repeating myself because you all don't seem to understand it yet.. Fox News' only responsibility is to their shareholders. Just like MSNBC's only responsibility is to their shareholders. They aren't strictly news channels, they are news channels with a political leaning. Fox is better at making money for it's shareholders because of the tactics they use and the amount of time they have been at it. MSNBC is lagging behind because they got into the game late, and they have to first fix all the bad PR that Fox News did already. They both use the same tactics, they both answer only to the shareholders, and they both run message for a political party. The only difference is Fox News is bigger and better right now than MSNBC.

You are upset because you think I'm saying "Because you like MSNBC you are no better than a FOX viewer.". When what I am actually saying is "Both companies are the same business model and that business model is bad for the political discourse in America."
 
2012-07-23 01:17:04 PM  

WTF Indeed: Sean Hannity is the best political show on television for those that prefer a conservative slant to their news.


That sure is a funny way to spell "demonstrable lies".
 
2012-07-23 01:17:07 PM  

WTF Indeed: MSNBC and Fox News are exactly alike. They are the two sides of the same coin. They both produce a manufactured reality that appeals to a certain demographic in order to be profitable business model. They both weaken the national discourse and pro-long the adversarial nature of politics, making true compromise and progress nearly impossible.


BSABSVR

When MSNBC has a show sponsored by PETA telling people that meat is murder, and we should shut down 100 years of technological progress so we don't hurt Bambi, then both sides will be equally bad.
 
2012-07-23 01:17:09 PM  

WTF Indeed: I am saying both of them are discount retailers with Wal-Mart being larger and more powerful, and you are saying they aren't both discount retailers because Wal-Mart is larger and more powerful.


I can see that you don't understand the concepts that are being presented to you, so I'll break it down a bit. I can see you like condescension, so I'm about to ditch that tone.

Everyone gets what you're saying, moron, they're saying you're wrong.
 
2012-07-23 01:19:37 PM  

WTF Indeed: Mugato: And yes I understand that they have higher ratings but that should make them want to be less carttonish because they have a bigger responsibility.

I keep repeating myself because you all don't seem to understand it yet.. Fox News' only responsibility is to their shareholders. Just like MSNBC's only responsibility is to their shareholders. They aren't strictly news channels, they are news channels with a political leaning. Fox is better at making money for it's shareholders because of the tactics they use and the amount of time they have been at it. MSNBC is lagging behind because they got into the game late, and they have to first fix all the bad PR that Fox News did already. They both use the same tactics, they both answer only to the shareholders, and they both run message for a political party. The only difference is Fox News is bigger and better right now than MSNBC.

You are upset because you think I'm saying "Because you like MSNBC you are no better than a FOX viewer.". When what I am actually saying is "Both companies are the same business model and that business model is bad for the political discourse in America."


Okay then I say the one side that actively campaigns against the laws of physics, the theory of evolution and the entire field of climatology should be the one to STFU first.
 
2012-07-23 01:19:49 PM  

WTF Indeed: They both use the same tactics


No, they do not. This has been pointed out to you. Until you address it, you don't get to act outraged that someone accused you of being an alt.
 
2012-07-23 01:20:00 PM  
I don't think MSNBC has killed anyone yet, whereas O-Reilly murdered an abortion doctor, so there is that
 
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