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		Penn State gets Sandusky'd (espn.go.com)		1081
		More: News, Penn State, Sandusky'd, Mark Emmert, President Ma, College Coach, Beaver Stadium, defensive coordinator, Joe Schad

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sethstorm		2012-07-24 04:39:08 AM

bdub77: OSU down. PSU down. Michigan next?

This sure feels like a Big Ten witch hunt perpetrated by the NCAA. They can go after the low hanging fruit instead of investigating, I dunno, the entire SEC.

The NCAA can go fark itself.

THIS.

sethstorm		2012-07-24 04:56:39 AM

CheekyMonkey: clipperbox: i wish they could revive joe pa and give him the news

Don't worry, he knows. They get ESPN in the afterlife.

FTFY

Paterno isn't in Hell. Now if you believe in that long enough, you may end up there.

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf		2012-07-24 05:16:41 AM

Vodka Zombie: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: The penalty against Penn state is understandable, but does it have any provisions to prevent those who had nothing to do with what happened from being affected by the penalty?

Yes.

Good :-)

srhp29: Like when the NCAA handed out penalties to USC and Ohio St recently and didn't have any affect on the folks that actually committed the violations? You mean provisions like that?

Nope, I mean the opposite effect of the penalty only affecting the actual violators and nobody else

srhp29: Actually the NCAA is allowing anyone who wants to transfer from PSU Football to do so without losing a year of eligibility or having to sit out a year. So they did I guess in this case.
r0Be: I think desmond Howard said it best, the players are given a choice. They are free to transfer without any waiting period or eligibility penalty, or they can continue on to play for Penn State. A choice, which is something the actual victims never had.
I think the NCAA did the right thing entirely. I was in the death penalty group but these are appropriate sanctions which have limited punishment for those not involved with the scandal.

That's good to know :-)

sethstorm		2012-07-24 05:47:28 AM

dave2198: What would have been your ideal punishment for Penn State and their football program?

Already happened when Sandusky was convicted and the coaches were fired.

RickyWilliams'sBong		2012-07-24 06:18:53 AM

AliceBToklasLives: Paterno can't lose anything - he's dead.

Setting aside the 'actual coaching' argument (yes - Paterno was like 'chairman of the board' rather than CEO) the problem with vacating the wins is that it's the only sanction that looks to the past rather than the future. Like we're going to just pretend the guy wasn't there.

OJ was the first guy to rush for 2,000 yards - wipe it off the record books, everyone still knows it's the case. Does his double homicide (and other crimes) overshadow his record? Of course - but it still happened. Dude is still in the hall of fame.

/no problem with the future-oriented penalties - although some due process and precedent concerns

Vacating the wins hits the Cult of JoePa right where it really hurts -- the reputation and record. Ten years from now, nobody's going to mention JoePa as the winningest coach. It'll be either Robinson or Bowden, depending on how it's being measured. The penalty for his cover-up was the obliteration of his legacy, which is necessary to crush the culture.

The lack of due process puzzled me at first, too, but apparently it was due to Penn State agreeing to allow the NCAA to go ahead with the sanctions in exchange for a lesser punishment. They accepted the Freeh Report and in essence signed a consent decree. If they hadn't, and instead made the NCAA waste time and money on an investigation that would've simply turned up the same stuff, they would've gotten the death penalty for a number of years. With that in mind, it's understandable.

dave2198		2012-07-24 07:13:56 AM

sethstorm: dave2198: What would have been your ideal punishment for Penn State and their football program?

Already happened when Sandusky was convicted and the coaches were fired.

So you would have done nothing.

R.A.Danny		2012-07-24 07:27:49 AM

sethstorm: R.A.Danny: Hahahaha!!!! You lost every game since '98!!!!

Only if you share in the NCAA's delusion.

I suppose some people can still be in denial. I guess.

FlyingLizardOfDoom		2012-07-24 07:30:50 AM

dave2198: sethstorm: dave2198: What would have been your ideal punishment for Penn State and their football program?

Already happened when Sandusky was convicted and the coaches were fired.

So you would have done nothing.

Only if you considering limiting punishment to those who actually committed a crime "nothing".

FlyingLizardOfDoom		2012-07-24 07:33:31 AM

FlyingLizardOfDoom: dave2198: sethstorm: dave2198: What would have been your ideal punishment for Penn State and their football program?

Already happened when Sandusky was convicted and the coaches were fired.

So you would have done nothing.

Only if you considering limiting punishment to those who actually committed a crime "nothing".

Not everyone at PSU weighs the same as a duck.

Millennium		2012-07-24 07:40:24 AM

sethstorm: That already happened at the conviction of Sandusky and the firing of the people that really were involved. That removed the problem - subsequent action was just placating the rabid masses who wanted their unjustifiable turn on Penn State.

No it didn't. It got the masterminds, but there was a far larger group of people involved in this -particularly as concerns the abhorrent treatment of people coming forward; that one is on the entire town- and there is the matter of the corrupt culture that made it all possible. These things must still be addressed, or there will be no justice. You, too, are part of the problem, as an enabler, and an NCAA death penalty for Penn State would be part of your just punishment. This slap on the wrist sort of is, too, I suppose, bit it does not begin to approach justice.

CheekyMonkey		2012-07-24 08:28:16 AM

sethstorm: CheekyMonkey: clipperbox: i wish they could revive joe pa and give him the news

Don't worry, he knows. They get ESPN in the afterlife.

FTFY

Paterno isn't in Hell. Now if you believe in that long enough, you may end up there.

Nope. Just a joke. I don't believe in any of that supernatural nonsense.

legion_of_doo		2012-07-24 09:44:02 AM

madly: So I have a question for you guys:

Is my degree from PSU smeared? Will I be forever ashamed when someone asks where I received an undergrad degree and I have to say Penn State? When you interview me for a job, are you going to judge me because of what you've heard about the football program?

Of course people are going to judge you... if not because of the child rape program, then because of the students & fans who continue to have no clue about how backwards they are.

No different than people judging people from the United States because of whatever beliefs. No different than you or I judging people who work at Bank of America, or JP Morgan, or Citi. No different than anything, really. You are also the company you keep, the connections you choose to share with people.

It's probably the students who are acting like idiots who will make the case for those who want to think negatively about your Penn State degree. You're kind of automatically that kind of Penn State person until you overcome it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong... it just is.

IAmRight		2012-07-24 10:00:34 AM

Elegy: They do when they know that a) they know their organization is in the wrong and b) they're trying to avoid a mych larger shiatstorm of institutional and legal liability.

They also do when any evidence would be inconclusive at best and the best case scenario is getting off on a technicality, but keeping the association with Sandusky up in the national media for years and bringing it up over and over again.

Their only option was to take everything that was given them, and to act as though the choice to fight the sanctions was a viable one in real life is pants-on-head retarded.

IAmRight		2012-07-24 10:06:39 AM

legion_of_doo: No different than people judging people from the United States because of whatever beliefs. No different than you or I judging people who work at Bank of America, or JP Morgan, or Citi. No different than anything, really.

Ah, this explains it. People in here really are the kind of dumbasses that judge people for sh*t like that.

dave2198		2012-07-24 11:45:27 AM

dave2198		2012-07-24 11:48:21 AM

FlyingLizardOfDoom: FlyingLizardOfDoom: dave2198: sethstorm: dave2198: What would have been your ideal punishment for Penn State and their football program?

Already happened when Sandusky was convicted and the coaches were fired.

So you would have done nothing.

Only if you considering limiting punishment to those who actually committed a crime "nothing".

Not everyone at PSU weighs the same as a duck.

Get off your cross. Athletics is the least important part of a university. Besides, they aren't even stopping your team from playing, they are just stopping the institution from profiting.

nmiguy		2012-07-24 01:37:06 PM

These Penn Staters don't quite get it. It is no longer about Jerry Sandusky and his crimes. He'll spend the rest of his life in prison. This is about the culture that allowed and helped him to prey on kids.

IAmRight		2012-07-24 01:53:08 PM

nmiguy: This is about the culture that allowed and helped him to prey on kids.

American culture, where we're taught that winners get to write history and to win at all costs? Where people genuinely believe that "if you ain't first, you're last" is a good way to live life, and not just a joke made to mock people in a movie?

/oh, no, we just stop the "it's about the culture" argument at whatever the largest level that doesn't include us is. This is the internet, where we're all completely awesome and never do anything wrong and everything's about those "others"

Millennium		2012-07-24 02:28:13 PM

IAmRight: American culture, where we're taught that winners get to write history and to win at all costs?

Football culture, where we're taught that the team is everything and that literally any sacrifice is for the team is worthwhile because football. Even among sports cultures, football seems to take this further than most, and at places like Penn State it's like reading a page straight out of #86/#68.

/oh, no, we just stop the "it's about the culture" argument at whatever the largest level that doesn't include us is. This is the internet, where we're all completely awesome and never do anything wrong and everything's about those "others"

Sometimes, it's not all of us. Most people wouldn't cover for a pedophile. That doesn't make us perfect, but our lack of perfection does not excuse those who would shelter predators, especially for such petty reasons.

Millennium		2012-07-24 02:34:15 PM

nmiguy: These Penn Staters don't quite get it. It is no longer about Jerry Sandusky and his crimes. He'll spend the rest of his life in prison. This is about the culture that allowed and helped him to prey on kids.

Exactly. Sandusky's story is over. Next on the list were the people behind the plot to shelter him, and their stories are either over or ending. Now it's time to turn our attention to the tools they used -including the dupes- and here we find some things that were blameless and some things that are not. Those that are not need to be dealt with, and the football program is one of those. It has mutated into something that should not be, and needs to be replaced. This cannot happen before the old program is torn down, so let that begin.

lohphat		2012-07-24 03:11:16 PM

Millennium: Sometimes, it's not all of us. Most people wouldn't cover for a pedophile. That doesn't make us perfect, but our lack of perfection does not excuse those who would shelter predators, especially for such petty reasons.

Like the Pope?

TheManofPA		2012-07-24 03:22:45 PM

Holy crap, is anyone watching the OTL on ESPN right now (east coast). These guys are making me wish Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith discuss Penn State. This is just awful. Personally, I thought the penalties were weaker than hyped (would have went with those plus TV ban) but this image guy is practically screaming at the PSU guy:

WHY DO YOU LOVE RAPE? DO YOU LOVE RAPE? WHY WOULD THE NCAA WAIT, IS IT BECAUSE YOU LOVE RAPING LITTLE BOYS?

tailormadebassist		2012-07-24 03:51:48 PM

WhyteRaven74: tailormadebassist: So, quit being a tool and figure out that this doesn't really hurt the school as much as it does the current students.

Someone named Desmond Howard, disagrees with you. Given he played college football, rather excelled at it, think his opinion should carry a bit more weight.

Seeing as how he's not a current student, I don't see how throwing him out there really helps your argument.

IAmRight		2012-07-24 04:30:24 PM

Millennium: Football culture, where we're taught that the team is everything and that literally any sacrifice is for the team is worthwhile because football.

I'm sure it's not about money. I'm sure it's not about power. It's "football culture." Not "money is more important than everything" culture, something that would be a bit more important to everyone involved in this, rather than the few people in this case that actually had football in mind first and foremost. Not "those with the most to lose are those who will do the most to protect it."

I'm sure you've called the police on every one of your friends who has admitted to driving drunk. If you haven't, then you're responsible for anyone they might kill eventually in the future while driving (drunk or not - after all, his license would have been suspended and he wouldn't have been allowed to drive).

This is the part where you attempt to equivocate about my comparing one crime to another and ignore the obvious parallels between that and not calling the police right away in this instance. It's okay to put people's lives at risk, but not okay to put people's lives at risk. It just depends on what is deemed socially acceptable. This is the part where you pretend that you're not completely fabricating the "reason" for the "culture" so it blames something that you don't particularly like (well, I guess you've really been doing this all along, but still).

Millennium		2012-07-24 07:04:00 PM

IAmRight: Millennium: Football culture, where we're taught that the team is everything and that literally any sacrifice is for the team is worthwhile because football.

I'm sure it's not about money. I'm sure it's not about power. It's "football culture." Not "money is more important than everything" culture, something that would be a bit more important to everyone involved in this, rather than the few people in this case that actually had football in mind first and foremost. Not "those with the most to lose are those who will do the most to protect it."

Money and power are probably how Paterno spun it to the PSU admins. There's even a chance he believed it himself. But that's not enough to make a cover-up truly effective, and certainly not as effective as this was. For the legions of fans who gave him this power, for the townspeople who intimidated witnesses for him, and continue to support cover-ups, and for the lower staff members who heard the rumors and maybe even saw an incident or two but still looked the other way, this is completely, totally, and entirely because football.

I'm sure you've called the police on every one of your friends who has admitted to driving drunk. If you haven't, then you're responsible for anyone they might kill eventually in the future while driving (drunk or not - after all, his license would have been suspended and he wouldn't have been allowed to drive).

Much of my social circle can't drink at all, for a variety of reasons (medical, in both my case and my wife's). As for those who do, none have ever told me they'd driven drunk, save one who had long since paid the price.

This is the part where you attempt to equivocate about my comparing one crime to another and ignore the obvious parallels between that and not calling the police right away in this instance.

Actually, I don't have to. My hands are clean. And I am far from alone: I dare say I'm far closer to the rule than the exception. Perhaps you are not, but that's your problem, not mine.

This is the part where you pretend that you're not completely fabricating the "reason" for the "culture" so it blames something that you don't particularly like (well, I guess you've really been doing this all along, but still).

Why pretend? Overachievement is just a word underachievers use to sleep at night after encountering what they could have been.

vudukungfu		2012-07-24 10:31:44 PM

Lotta stinky pinkies at ol' Penn State.

IAmRight		2012-07-25 09:10:40 AM

Millennium: for the townspeople who intimidated witnesses for him, and continue to support cover-ups, and for the lower staff members who heard the rumors and maybe even saw an incident or two but still looked the other way, this is completely, totally, and entirely because football.

In your pathetic mind, yes. You also probably think the war on drugs is about drugs because many of the people involved like drugs.

ransack.		2012-07-25 09:47:28 AM

This thread is still going on? wow

Pathman		2012-07-25 11:29:09 AM

IAmRight: I'm sure you've called the police on every one of your friends who has admitted to driving drunk. If you haven't, then you're responsible for anyone they might kill eventually in the future while driving (drunk or not - after all, his license would have been suspended and he wouldn't have been allowed to drive).

what? that is a terrible analogy. If i had a friend who hurt someone and later told me it was because he was drunk you're damn right i would tell the police. and there is no way i'm in the minority there.

if someone admits to driving drunk where nobody gots hurt there is no victim - you are not responsible for calling the police on them unless you have reason to believe they are going to do it again.

If someone is GOING to drive drunk and you don't do everything in your power to stop them up to and including calling the police then yes - you share responsibility for anyone that gets hurt.

Do you see the difference in those two scenarios?
If someone rapes a child, you find out about it and don't turn them in then you are not only responsible for the miscarriage of justice for the child that is already a victim, you share culpability for any the victimization of any children raped after that point.

vudukungfu		2012-07-25 07:58:02 PM

IAmRight: You also probably think the war on drugs is about drugs because many of the people involved like drugs.

It's because all that drug money could be spent on FOOTBALL!
YARGHQ!

sethstorm		2012-07-25 08:55:59 PM

RickyWilliams'sBong: Vacating the wins hits the Cult of JoePa right where it really hurts -- the reputation and record. Ten years from now, nobody's going to mention JoePa as the winningest coach. It'll be either Robinson or Bowden, depending on how it's being measured. The penalty for his cover-up was the obliteration of his legacy, which is necessary to crush the culture.

As played, Paterno still has the most wins. The NCAA just wants to revise it; those other two would still have less than Paterno even if their records were restored. But don't let facts get in the way of the memory hole.

It will be sweet justice when someone in the NCAA decides that the memory hole is no place for stats. Even better if it happens within our own lifetime.

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