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(Major League Baseball)   The Question: Is Jason Varitek a Hall of Famer? The Answer: Hahahahahahahahaha *breathe* Hahahahahahahahaha   (mlb.com) divider line 90
    More: Asinine, Jason Varitek, Major League Baseball, division series  
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1488 clicks; posted to Sports » on 22 Jul 2012 at 12:12 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-22 02:06:20 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: This might be thread-jacking, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Who do farkers and farkettes thinks is HOF material, but isn't in?
My pick among others Frank White 2b KC. 8 time gold glove winner


Tim Raines has been mentioned.

Keith Hernandez. If we're going to put a guy in for defense, that's the guy. It's barely a dispute whether or not he's the best 1b of all-time defensively, just a question of "does defense at 1b really count?" I say yes.

Plus, he had a very good bat. Just not the power numbers you'd like. 296 avg, 384 obp, 128 ops+ for his career. He's a guy who was HURT by walking too much. 1070 walks. Knock that down to 500 walks and put the ball in play 570 more times, that's another 150-200 hits, a handful of homers, etc.

Also, Edgar Martinez. Edgar is also hurt by walking too much (and not having more hits, hr, etc.) The fact that this can happen is absurd.

Meanwhile, Andre Dawson gets in BECAUSE he never walks, which kinda inflates his hits and hr.
 
2012-07-22 02:08:10 PM  

The Bestest: ok then, let's toss another name out there..

Piazza


Not sure if serious, he's first ballot, what are you talking about? Even if he wasn't a catcher he'd be first ballot.
 
2012-07-22 02:30:26 PM  
Red Sox HOF, probably
MLB HOF, definitely not.
 
2012-07-22 02:53:27 PM  

wooden_badger: Red Sox HOF, probably
MLB HOF, definitely not.


He would have to make it into the MLB HOF to even get his number retired by the Sox, according to team rules.
 
2012-07-22 02:56:04 PM  
That is almost as good as Hines Ward.

Now, for someone that should but never will, Torry Holt.

/I know the main thread is baseball, but whatever
 
2012-07-22 03:29:53 PM  
Red Sox HOF, definitely.
Cooperstown, no.
Cape Cod Baseball League, 2002
 
2012-07-22 03:58:24 PM  

NeoCortex42: according to team rules.


More like guidelines.........
 
2012-07-22 04:13:58 PM  
Did Rose ever bet for the Reds to lose?
 
2012-07-22 04:20:44 PM  

ole prophet: Did Rose ever bet for the Reds to lose?


sources say
 
2012-07-22 04:27:44 PM  

MattyFridays: Not sure if serious, he's first ballot, what are you talking about? Even if he wasn't a catcher he'd be first ballot.



# 11 on the "Stupid ESPN /Sports Talk Radio Topics" = HE'S NOT FIRST BALLOT MATERIAL! HE GETS IN, BUT.......NOT ON THE FIRST BALLOT!

as if any sport's respective HOF has a "first ballot" wing and and then the Ron Santo wing.

you get it, you get in. that some guys have to wait a year or 2 years, who farking cares.

/randy moss gets in! BUT NOT ON THE FIRST BALLOT!
//steve nash won a couple of MVPs but no rings! HE'S NOT FIRST BALLOT!
////jim thome never won but HE DID IT THE RIGHT WAY! HIS BODY NEVER CHANGED IN THE STEROID ERA! HE'S FIRST BALLOT!
 
2012-07-22 05:05:03 PM  
Lol aww
 
2012-07-22 05:06:13 PM  

NeoCortex42: wooden_badger: Red Sox HOF, probably
MLB HOF, definitely not.

He would have to make it into the MLB HOF to even get his number retired by the Sox, according to team rules.


Johnny Pesky says hello.
 
2012-07-22 05:09:53 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: This might be thread-jacking, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Who do farkers and farkettes thinks is HOF material, but isn't in?
My pick among others Frank White 2b KC. 8 time gold glove winner


I'm thinking Alan Trammell. I mean, FFS if Barry Larkin is in..
 
2012-07-22 05:25:19 PM  

Wise_Guy: NeoCortex42: wooden_badger: Red Sox HOF, probably
MLB HOF, definitely not.

He would have to make it into the MLB HOF to even get his number retired by the Sox, according to team rules.

Johnny Pesky says hello.


I guess it should be team "rules" then. I guess I didn't realize Pesky wasn't in the HOF.
 
2012-07-22 05:44:37 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: This might be thread-jacking, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Who do farkers and farkettes thinks is HOF material, but isn't in?
My pick among others Frank White 2b KC. 8 time gold glove winner


It's a farking crime that Frank White is not in the HOF.
 
2012-07-22 05:58:42 PM  

Yanks_RSJ: Short answer: no.

Long answer: fark no.

The Red Sox should honor him for his contribution to their franchise, but even mentioning Cooperstown is laughable.


This.
 
2012-07-22 06:40:57 PM  
I can feel RSJ's asshole puckering from here. And my dick's not even in it. Love that guy's brand of butthurt.

/that said, lord no
 
2012-07-22 07:01:03 PM  
I think they should let him in.

In recent years it has gone from a Hall of Fame to a Hall of Pretty Decent anyway, so what is one more feel good fan favorite. Then Boston will have a representative of the 'Roid Sox era with a plaque they can visit...in New York.
 
2012-07-22 07:08:50 PM  
I remember in 2008 he was added to the All-Star Game team even though he batted under .220 at the time. What morons idea was this?
 
2012-07-22 07:38:19 PM  

melaniethepanda: I can feel RSJ's asshole puckering from here. And my dick's not even in it. Love that guy's brand of butthurt.

/that said, lord no


Well, aren't you cute, person I can't recall ever interacting with.
 
2012-07-22 07:42:12 PM  

mitchcumstein1: Mid_mo_mad_man: This might be thread-jacking, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Who do farkers and farkettes thinks is HOF material, but isn't in?
My pick among others Frank White 2b KC. 8 time gold glove winner

It's a farking crime that Frank White is not in the HOF.


Ty for defense of White.
 
2012-07-22 09:23:30 PM  

mitchcumstein1: It's a farking crime that Frank White is not in the HOF.


With Frank White's mediocre bat (even for his era), you'd have to convince me that he's essentially the Ozzie Smith of second basemen. He was quite good, but various defensive metrics suggest he wasn't Ozzie-good.

If I had to pick a second baseman, I'd suggest Bobby Grich. Also a very good defender (probably not quite as good as White), but was an excellent offensive player-- .266/.371/.424 (125 OPS+).

Beluga Heights: I'm thinking Alan Trammell.


Excellent choice. He was quite a hitter for a middle infielder in his day, and was at least as good a defender as a White or Larkin, if not better. He had a higher 'peak' than White, and really should have won the 1987 MVP.

Other good choices: Tim Raines, Dwight Evans. (Piazza, Pudge, etc. haven't yet been eligible.) I think Joe Torre would be a borderline call just on his playing career, but his managerial career will probably put him over the top eventually.
 
2012-07-22 09:46:20 PM  

FriarReb98: Ken VeryBigLiar: I know the cries for Tim Raines from Jonah Keri are fairly loud but he came by it as a fan first.

Raines is hurt by a long career on bad teams. Even if he has 800 career steals, it's not enough in this day & age of OMGHOMERZ!


I only used him as an example of a larger point ( but he is doomed to always be an on the cusp guy) but if ESPN could prove that their hype machine can get people into Canton/Cooperstown/Springfield it could be a boon to them. Say there's a 'Bama booster who wants more guys who went there in Canton (say the booster was in school when Stabler or Lee Roy Jordan was) and pays them to get the word out. Voters get pressured with pieces and tweets, numbers get massaged (ESPN's new QB rating anyone?) and poof... Stabler's in a mustard jacket.

/Even if he doesn't deserve it
//Probably have to sell it for back taxes
///And this coming from a Raider fan
 
2012-07-22 10:16:33 PM  

chimp_ninja: mitchcumstein1: It's a farking crime that Frank White is not in the HOF.

With Frank White's mediocre bat (even for his era), you'd have to convince me that he's essentially the Ozzie Smith of second basemen. He was quite good, but various defensive metrics suggest he wasn't Ozzie-good.

If I had to pick a second baseman, I'd suggest Bobby Grich. Also a very good defender (probably not quite as good as White), but was an excellent offensive player-- .266/.371/.424 (125 OPS+).


For second basemen, I'd put Lou Whitaker ahead of Bobby Grich, although not by a whole lot.

Frank White doesn't belong in the conversation.
 
2012-07-22 10:56:40 PM  

Beluga Heights: Mid_mo_mad_man: This might be thread-jacking, but I'm going to ask anyway.

Who do farkers and farkettes thinks is HOF material, but isn't in?
My pick among others Frank White 2b KC. 8 time gold glove winner

I'm thinking Alan Trammell. I mean, FFS if Barry Larkin is in..


If Tram is in, Lou has to go in, too.

If Lou is in, how about the winningest pitcher in the '80s, too?

/But Fark Gibby. He can stay home
 
2012-07-22 11:04:16 PM  

ryarger: If Lou is in, how about the winningest pitcher in the '80s, too?


No.
 
2012-07-22 11:13:53 PM  

chimp_ninja: I'd suggest Bobby Grich


Absolutely, a fantastic player.

Wise_Guy: For second basemen, I'd put Lou Whitaker ahead of Bobby Grich, although not by a whole lot.

Frank White doesn't belong in the conversation.


If we're having a conversation about Jason farking Veritek we can have a conversation about Frank White.
 
2012-07-23 12:13:15 AM  

Coco LaFemme: LOL, you think he punched Alex Rodriguez in the mouth. That was more like a face wash with a glove then a punch. You want to see a real punch, catch some footage of Red Sox/Yankees brawls from the 1970s, when they were more akin to bar fights. Didn't Lou Piniella sucker-punch Bill Lee in the face during one of those battle royales? Pretty sure Thurman Munson body-slammed Carlton Fisk onto home plate once, too.

Coffee Snob: I am a die hard Red Sox fan. My top three favorite Sox of all time are Tek, Trot Nixon, and Mike Greenwell.

When did you become a Red Sox fan.....2004? That would be like a Yankees fan saying their favorite all-time Yankees were David Wells, Chuck Knoblauch, and Scott Brosius. That's just farking hysterical, right there. I hate the Red Sox, but the players they've had on their team that I actually had respect for were Nomar, Tim Wakefield, and Mo Vaughn. You know, non-assholes. Shiat, you could have said Roger Clemens, and I would at least have said, "Well yeah, he was damn good when he pitched for them."


Girl, I wanna school you good.
 
2012-07-23 12:17:05 AM  
Also:

Coco LaFemme When did you become a Red Sox fan.....2004?

Because clearly, your choices of Tek, Trot, and Greenie as your all-time faves betrays you deep knowledge on the subject.

Too bad it's too late for help from The Little Professor.
 
2012-07-23 12:52:37 AM  

Coco LaFemme: Coffee Snob: I am a die hard Red Sox fan. My top three favorite Sox of all time are Tek, Trot Nixon, and Mike Greenwell.

When did you become a Red Sox fan.....2004? That would be like a Yankees fan saying their favorite all-time Yankees were David Wells, Chuck Knoblauch, and Scott Brosius. That's just farking hysterical, right there. I hate the Red Sox, but the players they've had on their team that I actually had respect for were Nomar, Tim Wakefield, and Mo Vaughn. You know, non-assholes. Shiat, you could have said Roger Clemens, and I would at least have said, "Well yeah, he was damn good when he pitched for them."


Right. He should conform his subjective pick of his favorite players to your standard.
 
2012-07-23 01:01:16 AM  

FriarReb98: It's actually not as laughable as you think, for the simple reason that he's a catcher. His numbers are within range of most of the numbers of catchers already in the Hall. He's around average for doubles, home runs, slugging & OPS, and there is a HOF catcher that can claim less than him in every other category that had more plate appearances than him. Not that he's completely Hall-worthy, mind you.


FriarReb98: Honestly, from a point of view of catchers, just about. He's got a better OPS than Fisk, Bench or Gary Carter, the three modern catchers in the Hall, has more homers than Carter & Fisk, and his doubles & RBIs are comparable to both Bench & Carter.


The problem with comparisons of raw stats is that it doesn't reflect differences in era. When Bench, Carter & Fisk played, hitting stats across the board were lower than when Varitek played, so being comparable to them means that 'Tek was actually worse than they were relative to the rest of the league (this could be reflected in OBS+ or other, similar stats adjusted for era). With the exception of Ray Schalk (who is in the Hall for not throwing a World Series), catchers are a relatively solid position in terms of Hall of Fame selections. The only other catcher in the Hall who Varitek stacks up well against seems to be Rick Ferrell, and "he might be better than Rick Ferrell" isn't a particularly ringing endorsement. It wouldn't be a travesty for Varitek to make it in, but it should't upset anyone if he doesn't, either...
 
2012-07-23 10:03:12 AM  

mitchcumstein1: Wise_Guy: For second basemen, I'd put Lou Whitaker ahead of Bobby Grich, although not by a whole lot.

Frank White doesn't belong in the conversation.

If we're having a conversation about Jason farking Veritek we can have a conversation about Frank White.


Varitek was a better hitter than White and played a more demanding defensive position.

Dafatone: Keith Hernandez. If we're going to put a guy in for defense, that's the guy. It's barely a dispute whether or not he's the best 1b of all-time defensively, just a question of "does defense at 1b really count?" I say yes.


He's a guy that I wouldn't vote for (if I had a vote), but really wouldn't complain if he got elected. I can see both sides of the argument there.

And since Raines, Trammell, Whitaker, Simmons, and Martinez have been mentioned, I'm going to go old school and throw out Sherry Magee. He hit .291/.364 /.427 (137 OPS+) from 1904-1919. His counting stats (with the exception of his 414 SB) aren't strong, but that's only because he played in the dead ball era. In his last AB, he got a base hit off Eddie Cicotte in the 9th inning of game 7 in the 1919 World Series - the only start in the series that Cicotte was actually trying to win.
 
2012-07-23 10:40:45 AM  

Rex_Banner: Varitek was a better hitter than White and played a more demanding defensive position.


.256 .341 .435 .776 99
.255 .293 .383 .675 85

In a different era of baseball, on two totally different kinds of teams, that had two totally different philosophies, their stats aren't that different. The Royals of the late 70s early 80s didn't walk, they put the ball in play, ran, and played good defense, and they were damned good for a long time. Frank was a big reason for it. Frank White did win 8 Gold Gloves in 10 years, and was a key member of a team that went to the playoffs, at a time when only 4 teams total went, 6 times in 10 years, 7 if you count '81. To say he doesn't deserve a conversation while Jason Veritek does is laughable.

And numbers are great, but I saw the man play, and he was a hell of a baseball player.
 
2012-07-23 10:58:31 AM  

mitchcumstein1: To say he doesn't deserve a conversation while Jason Veritek does is laughable.


Neither do.
 
2012-07-23 11:10:38 AM  

mitchcumstein1: .256 .341 .435 .776 99
.255 .293 .383 .675 85

In a different era of baseball, on two totally different kinds of teams, that had two totally different philosophies, their stats aren't that different.


The stats "aren't that different"? Look at those numbers you posted again, specifically the OPS+, which accounts for the difference in eras.

mitchcumstein1: Frank White did win 8 Gold Gloves in 10 years, and was a key member of a team that went to the playoffs, at a time when only 4 teams total went, 6 times in 10 years, 7 if you count '81.


And Varitek was a key part of a team that ended an 86 year title drought. Why should that matter in a Hall of Fame discussion? How does a player have a better career if he plays on better teams?

mitchcumstein1: To say he doesn't deserve a conversation while Jason Veritek does is laughable.


To say that Varitek deserves to be in the conversation at all is laughable.
 
2012-07-23 11:20:43 AM  

FriarReb98: Rex_Banner: The problem is, if the standard for the Hall is "not as good as Rickey Henderson", we're going to need to cut a lot of guys out.

See, in general that's a problem that could be handled with my tiered Hall plan. There are plenty of players who were really good for really different reasons who get absolutely crapped on when this conversation gets brought up for one reason or another, usually because despite being Hall-worthy in one respect, their numbers don't bear it out against superhero-level players that are in there. I think expanding the definitions of the Hall would solve that fairly well. While not everyone people want in would get in, it would get a bunch of these types of players in. Conveniently, you could even dis a player from the steroid era by not giving them higher honors despite superhero numbers.

\not that any of this will ever get Rose in the hall, but it's better than the crap we have now
\\reading Cooperstown Confidential will help for anyone who doesn't understand how farked up the voting system is


The thing with a tiered system is that instead of arguing over who should be in and who shouldn't be in, we'd just end up arguing about why someone wasn't a Hall of Famer with Honors. Of course, it's probably better to have a great player in the Hall but on a lower level than he deserves, than it is to keep a great player out for no good reason. I think it'd be interesting and it's definitely worth consideration.
 
2012-07-23 11:58:51 AM  

Rex_Banner: The stats "aren't that different"? Look at those numbers you posted again, specifically the OPS+, which accounts for the difference in eras.


Difference in ballparks, not eras.

And Varitek was a key part of a team that ended an 86 year title drought. Why should that matter in a Hall of Fame discussion? How does a player have a better career if he plays on better teams?

Because, in sports, numbers don't always mean everything.

To say that Varitek deserves to be in the conversation at all is laughable.

Something we agree on.
 
2012-07-23 12:56:22 PM  

mitchcumstein1: Rex_Banner: The stats "aren't that different"? Look at those numbers you posted again, specifically the OPS+, which accounts for the difference in eras.

Difference in ballparks, not eras.


No. OPS+ does have a park adjustment, but it accounts for eras because it measures a player's OPS in relation to the league's OPS. So if the league average OPS is .700, and a player who plays in a neutral park has an OPS of .700, his OPS+ is 100. Likewise, if the league OPS is .800, and a player who plays in a neutral park has an OPS of .800, his OPS+ is also 100. Two complete different offensive environments, same OPS+. That's why it's good to look at OPS+ when comparing players from different eras.

mitchcumstein1: And Varitek was a key part of a team that ended an 86 year title drought. Why should that matter in a Hall of Fame discussion? How does a player have a better career if he plays on better teams?

Because, in sports, numbers don't always mean everything.


So Frank White gets bonus points because he played on teams with George Brett and Hal McRae? What if he put up the exact same stats on a team that never made the playoffs because instead of Brett and McRae he had Bill Stein and Paul Dade?
 
2012-07-23 01:27:05 PM  

Coffee Snob: I am a die hard Red Sox fan. My top three favorite Sox of all time are Tek, Trot Nixon, and Mike Greenwell.

There is no way that Tek is a HOFer. Yes, he caught 4 no hitters and improved every pitching staff he worked with. Plus he punched A-Roid in the mouth. But he doesn't deserve the HOF.


Neither does Jim Rice
 
2012-07-23 05:18:53 PM  

mitchcumstein1: Rex_Banner: The stats "aren't that different"? Look at those numbers you posted again, specifically the OPS+, which accounts for the difference in eras.

Difference in ballparks, not eras.


OPS+ also accounts for eras. It's normalized to league performance for that year. It's one of many ways to show that Varitek was a significantly better hitter than White, who was quite poor.

mitchcumstein1: In a different era of baseball, on two totally different kinds of teams, that had two totally different philosophies, their stats aren't that different. The Royals of the late 70s early 80s didn't walk, they put the ball in play, ran, and played good defense, and they were damned good for a long time.


Frank White mostly made outs. He had a .293 OBP. There was no era in baseball where making that many outs was a good sign. He wasn't even that good of a baserunner-- 178 steals vs. 83 caught, spread out over 18 years. It's questionable that his baserunning helped enough to make up for the 83 bonus outs-- he's very close to the break-even line.

Frank was a big reason for it. Frank White did win 8 Gold Gloves in 10 years, and was a key member of a team that went to the playoffs, at a time when only 4 teams total went, 6 times in 10 years, 7 if you count '81.

That's a good argument for other, better Royals to be considered for the Hall.

Otherwise, do you support Luis Sojo going into the Hall? He's got 5 World Series rings!

To say he doesn't deserve a conversation while Jason Veritek does is laughable.

Is anyone here saying that Varitek does?
 
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