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(Daily Mail)   United Airlines: We'll stop a disabled veteran from bringing his service animal on board in violation of federal law, kick the dog and injure it, and then ask the veteran if he's retarded   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 249
    More: Stupid, United Airlines, get to the point, Airlines staff, veterans, federal law, stripes, Jim Stanek, airlines  
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26807 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Jul 2012 at 1:23 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-22 02:50:15 PM

davemchine: You sound like a very knowledgeable dog owner and I don't want to disagree with you at all. I would still suggest buying the black light though. I thought my last dog was well trained until I did so. Then I found out one room of my house had become the "pee room" unknown to me. I try to have my carpets cleaned professionally fairly often which may account for why I didn't notice the aroma, or maybe I just got used to it slowly, I don't know.


You're obviously a bad pet owner. Had you properly trained your dog, it would go days without having to relieve itself and when it did, it would remember to put the seat down and flush.
 
2012-07-22 02:54:41 PM

Praise Cheesus: sanitybleeds: Given the fact he only seems to list PTSD as his disability, it seems a bit unlikely he has a "service animal", more likely just an emotional support animal, or as they are often regarded, a pet for someone with an emotional impairment that has no specific training at all.

Secondly, most airport agents don't tend to move around alot from their podium while working a flight, especially one thats delayed, so the fact his dog was anywhere near enough to the agents for them to allegedly kick it tells me he would probably have to be in the wrong place, or allowed his dog to be.

Maybe its because I'm an airline worker, or maybe its because this coming from the Daily Fail, but I pretty much regard this story as a load of crap.

He lists Post Traumatic Stress Disorder AND Traumatic Brain Injury as the reasons why he has the service dog. Mr. Stanek flew from Albuquerque to Knoxville, TN on July 13th for a conference. On this flight, apparently the suitcase he had packed his medication in was lost by the airline.

His first attempt to get home was on July 15. His 6:55 PM flight from Dulles to Albuquerque was first delayed, then cancelled. The airline provided him taxi and hotel vouchers for the inconvenience. On July 16th, his dog was kicked by a person wearing a United Airlines uniform while he was on a shuttle to the terminal. That flight was cancelled and he again sought out Customer Service for vouchers; at first, he was informed by an employee in a United Airlines uniform that he was not eligible for hotel and taxi vouchers. Mr. Stanek started to question this decision by the customer service agent, when the agent asked him if he was retarded. After a few choice words hurled at that CSA, Mr. Stanek went to another customer service desk and they provided him vouchers. He was booked onto a morning flight on July 17, a flight that was once again delayed. United booked him on an evening flight, then 15 minutes later, two United employees came over t ...


Thanks for the link, that had way more info than the original garbage from the daily fail! Although it adds a great deal more credibility and timeline to his story, I'm still seeing too many holes in his version of events. I also find it extremely unlikely he'd shrug off someone kicking his dog on a shuttle bus unless it appeared innocent and accidental or just unsure if it actually occurred or not. As for the "retard" comment, I got nothing on that. I've known and worked with some pretty farking stupid customer service agents, but I'd like to say I haven't worked with any THAT farking stupid, unless they were maybe stupid enough to generally ask if he was suffering from some mental deficiency preventing him from understanding why we wasn't being issued vouchers, but I figure anyone stupid enough to ask that would just as soon ask if he was retarded or not. I'm no fan of United, in fact, I generally dislike them and most of their staff I interact with, but I doubt this story is anywhere near as one-sided as this guy is making out, especially given the speed at which the DOT is responding and investigating the matter.
 
2012-07-22 02:54:58 PM

consider this: davemchine: You sound like a very knowledgeable dog owner and I don't want to disagree with you at all. I would still suggest buying the black light though. I thought my last dog was well trained until I did so. Then I found out one room of my house had become the "pee room" unknown to me. I try to have my carpets cleaned professionally fairly often which may account for why I didn't notice the aroma, or maybe I just got used to it slowly, I don't know.

You're obviously a bad pet owner. Had you properly trained your dog, it would go days without having to relieve itself and when it did, it would remember to put the seat down and flush.


Wow. I never said that. You seem to be confusing, again, two different scenarios, being a good pet owner vs having trained pets. Having trained pets doesn't make you a good pet owner and being a good pet owner does not mean you have trained pets.
 
2012-07-22 02:57:27 PM

dlp211: Wow. I never said that. You seem to be confusing, again, two different scenarios, being a good pet owner vs having trained pets. Having trained pets doesn't make you a good pet owner and being a good pet owner does not mean you have trained pets.



You've implied that a service animal is somehow better trained than any other housebroken dog.
 
2012-07-22 03:06:20 PM

consider this: dlp211: Wow. I never said that. You seem to be confusing, again, two different scenarios, being a good pet owner vs having trained pets. Having trained pets doesn't make you a good pet owner and being a good pet owner does not mean you have trained pets.


You've implied that a service animal is somehow better trained than any other housebroken dog.


Yes, because they are, because they have been trained, by people who know how to train dogs. Again, training a dog and being a good pet owner are not the same thing. Most pet owners train their dogs to be moderately house broken, let them be led by the dog on the lead, allow them onto the furniture, etc etc. This doesn't make them bad pet owners, just bad dog trainers. There is a reason that dog obedience schools exist.
 
2012-07-22 03:10:56 PM

I May Be Crazy But...: MadAzza: SevenizGud: cptjeff: Put the glass down and go to bed.

Or what? You gonna stupid me to death?

I just fav'd you as "ADA attorney," then almost immediately had to change it to "ADA attorney, asshole."

You wrote a note to yourself that included calling yourself an asshole?

Takes all sorts, I guess.


Reading comprehension: Get some.
 
2012-07-22 03:15:14 PM

MadAzza: I May Be Crazy But...: MadAzza: SevenizGud: cptjeff: Put the glass down and go to bed.

Or what? You gonna stupid me to death?

I just fav'd you as "ADA attorney," then almost immediately had to change it to "ADA attorney, asshole."

You wrote a note to yourself that included calling yourself an asshole?

Takes all sorts, I guess.

Reading comprehension: Get some.


There's two legitimate ways to read what you wrote. I understand what you mean, I just find the other version funnier and thought I should share with the class.
 
2012-07-22 03:17:07 PM

dlp211: Yes, because they are


No, no they're not. There's no magical procedure for training service animals that makes them able to hold it longer than a non-service animal that has also been trained to be house broken.
 
2012-07-22 03:21:23 PM

consider this: dlp211: Yes, because they are

No, no they're not. There's no magical procedure for training service animals that makes them able to hold it longer than a non-service animal that has also been trained to be house broken.


Yes, there is, because most animals are not truly house broken. If your dog continues to have accidents in the house, guess what, its not house broken. It just knows not to piss while you are home.
 
2012-07-22 03:26:24 PM

dlp211: Yes, there is, because most animals are not truly house broken. If your dog continues to have accidents in the house, guess what, its not house broken. It just knows not to piss while you are home.


Because a service animal has never shiat or pissed in a store, right?
 
2012-07-22 03:33:51 PM

orbister: Gyrfalcon: orbister: Is there any evidence that the man in question has been professionally diagnosed as disabled and that the dog is a genuine service dog, or is he just a foul mouth on a hair trigger with a poorly trained dog he likes to keep with him? It does sound from the article as if the dog may have attacked (sorry, "surprised") airline staff twice and he admits a verbal outburst. It may be that the airline staff have a very different recollection of the events.

Guess you missed the part where he's a veteran with PTSD (which is a disability) and that the dog is a service dog, one of many his organization makes available for veterans with PTSD.

No. I saw the bit about him claiming to have PTSD and the bit about him claiming that it's a service dog. Hence my question about "professionally diagnosed" and "genuine". I also saw suggestions that both he and the dog had behaved aggressively to airline staff, which is certainly understandable in PTSD but less so in a service dog. In cases like this it's always useful to have the full picture, doncha think?

If he's legit then I have complete sympathy, by the way.


Well good... then I guess we can expect you to stop a moment and apologize for doubting him with your carefully parsed "claiming to have PTSD" because if you watched the video and maybe read the article you'd read or hear him mention how he presented the UA staff with letters from his doctor about his conditions. You did notice his mentioning that like 3 times right? And needing the animal... and that he has experienced traumatic brain damage in service that left him without the ability to READ.

So I guess we can expect you to say something like. "I take back everything I said about doubting the poor guy. He clearly DOES have a medical condition that was professionally certified, the dog is clearly trained as a service animal (since one of the things he mentioned was how it blocked people to keep a "safe zone" around his owner which is something PTSD sufferers require) , and clearly the guy has a condition that is significant and warranted additional assistance from UA. I apologize for my lack of reading and listening comprehension, it's my fault for not paying attention and I'd like to sincerely express my contriteness and I hope that I'll not be so crass in the future and will instead endeavor to listen and research the facts before assigning doubt, especially if in the article or video the person in question addresses any doubts I might have had."

Seriously people. Reading the article and paying attention to the facts does help. The guy HAD letters from his doctor, and the UA people basically spat on him. And while he can speak clearly... there are all sorts of brain damage you can have that does not leave you a slavering idiot. For example had a friend get in a car accident, and got brain damage. And for the most part he seemed fine, but for a couple years he could NOT for the life of him remember things like phone numbers no matter how hard he tried. He'd get them scrambled.

My heart goes out to this poor guy. I've dealt with UA people and I have no problem for a minute believing everything this poor guy went through is the gospel truth.
 
2012-07-22 03:39:05 PM
The only thing worse than an airline is the IAMAW.
 
2012-07-22 03:40:14 PM

consider this: dlp211: Yes, there is, because most animals are not truly house broken. If your dog continues to have accidents in the house, guess what, its not house broken. It just knows not to piss while you are home.

Because a service animal has never shiat or pissed in a store, right?


Oh, I am sure that you could find some instance of that happening, but if it did, and it was a dog, it was because the dog was sick. The thing to take away that it is not a normal occurrence, it isn't even a rare occurrence, it is a one off occurrence.
 
2012-07-22 03:41:07 PM

consider this: dlp211: Yes, there is, because most animals are not truly house broken. If your dog continues to have accidents in the house, guess what, its not house broken. It just knows not to piss while you are home.

Because a service animal has never shiat or pissed in a store, right?


And I bet I can find more instances of humans pissing and shiatting in a store and plane then service animals.
 
2012-07-22 03:42:48 PM
Yup thats a lawsuitand one United deserves to lose big time.

/no respect for anyone who mistreats animals or our veterans.
 
2012-07-22 03:45:33 PM

dlp211: humans pissing and shiatting in a ... plane...


Look it only happened the once, and I was young. You know, 14.
 
2012-07-22 03:52:23 PM

dlp211: Oh, I am sure that you could find some instance of that happening, but if it did, and it was a dog, it was because the dog was sick.


Or maybe it's because it's a dog.
 
2012-07-22 03:53:12 PM

Chabash: Airports have cameras. If this happened in the way he describes, there should be at least some proof.


Do airport security camera videos get "lost" as easily as police camera videos?

BTW, how exactly to they claim to "lose" footage these days? There are no tapes involved anymore.
 
2012-07-22 03:56:47 PM

JimmyFartpants: consider this: Allowing a person to take a dog or any other animal on a flight is farking stupid. I guess it's cool if they shiat and piss right in the aisle.

You're farking moron.


I know that seeing eye dogs are supposed to be perfectly conditioned furry robots that don't do such things. Do all "service dogs" meet that standard, though? My understanding is that dogs that don't make the cut for seeing eye dog training sometimes get flunked down into other types of service dog training.
 
2012-07-22 03:56:49 PM

I May Be Crazy But...: MadAzza: I May Be Crazy But...: MadAzza: SevenizGud: cptjeff: Put the glass down and go to bed.

Or what? You gonna stupid me to death?

I just fav'd you as "ADA attorney," then almost immediately had to change it to "ADA attorney, asshole."

You wrote a note to yourself that included calling yourself an asshole?

Takes all sorts, I guess.

Reading comprehension: Get some.

There's two legitimate ways to read what you wrote. I understand what you mean, I just find the other version funnier and thought I should share with the class.


Yeah, I know. I'm just being a coont. Sorry.
 
2012-07-22 04:01:24 PM

consider this: dlp211: Oh, I am sure that you could find some instance of that happening, but if it did, and it was a dog, it was because the dog was sick.

Or maybe it's because it's a dog.


Oh, for fu(k's sake, just shut the fu(k up, you goddamned f*cking idiot! You f*cking stupid piece of sh*t! What the f*ck is the matter with you? You worthless, sniveling, argumentative cock, you goddamn clueless asshole, you're f*cking WRONG, get it? You do not f*cking know what the f*ck you're talking about. Shut up, for all that is good and holy, JUST SHUT THE F*CK UP.
 
2012-07-22 04:02:51 PM
*spits out hook*
 
2012-07-22 04:16:41 PM
In the deaf community they are called "Better go now" dogs. They learn the command because they might not get another chance for a while.
There are great variations in an animal's degree of training.
I had a great one. We flew back and forth from Mi and SC often. She could go 8 hours easy. Then she would ask permission if she needed to go.
She did barf in a store once, must have ate something bad.
 
2012-07-22 04:39:40 PM
dlp211, sounds like you are a very good dog owner.

My current dog is a 10 week old akc female pug. I've never owned a puppy before. My other dogs have been rescue dogs. So I'm working hard on learning about both puppies and pugs. I will be glad when she gets a little older and can wait longer periods of time without needing to go out. For now I'm getting up 2-3 times in the night to let her out which is impacting my sleep. Will also be glad to get her crate trained as she likes to snore in my ear at night. :-)
 
2012-07-22 04:50:35 PM

davemchine: dlp211, sounds like you are a very good dog owner.

My current dog is a 10 week old akc female pug. I've never owned a puppy before. My other dogs have been rescue dogs. So I'm working hard on learning about both puppies and pugs. I will be glad when she gets a little older and can wait longer periods of time without needing to go out. For now I'm getting up 2-3 times in the night to let her out which is impacting my sleep. Will also be glad to get her crate trained as she likes to snore in my ear at night. :-)


I would break her of the habit of being in the bed soon, but that is your preference of wether you want her sleeping in the bed. Something that I have done with my puppies that seems to work is put them in the crate but put the crate in the room with you. It should stop them from whining because they know that you are near. Also, you should have weewee pads around the house, especially any spot that she seems to frequent, and slowly move the pad towards an exit. This will teach the dog that the door is where she needs to go to relieve herself. Eventually you train her to sit and either tap a bell or "speak" to alert you that she needs to go to the bathroom.

I also keep them crated any time I leave until I am sure that they are past their "chew" stage which usually doesn't happen until they are about 2. As with all dogs YMMV with training, but with a puppy I highly suggest taking her for a walk on the lead and teaching her to be a "follower" instead of the pack leader. It actually can reduce a significant amount of hyperactivity and stress in the dog.

As far as getting up, well until she gets older, yea, you just gotta put up with that. Same as having a kid. All my dogs have been puppy adoptions and have always been medium sized dogs. GL, and really a poorly trained dog is not indicative of a bad pet owner just a bad dog trainer. A good pet owner will make sure she is fed, walked, groomed, and most importantly loved :). There's always obedience school.
 
2012-07-22 05:03:43 PM

consider this: dlp211: Oh, I am sure that you could find some instance of that happening, but if it did, and it was a dog, it was because the dog was sick.

Or maybe it's because it's a dog.



Why aren't the mods giving this pathetic troll a nice long time out?
 
2012-07-22 05:11:59 PM

ElLoco: dlp211: It's not "a dog", it's a farking service animal. An animal that has been specifically trained to be on an airplane and not "piss right in the aisle". What the fark is wrong with you?

A 'dog' is what I have right now with my daughter's retarded pyrenees/lab crawling over the top of me and halfway onto the desk because a fly flew by, or he heard the paint on the wall, or whatever stupid thing he's come up with now.

Probably trying to figure out how to shiat on the ceiling, if I were to just completely guess about his intentions.

:/


i LOLed.

+1!!
 
2012-07-22 05:15:53 PM
Why are people still flying? Between the TSA and the airline personnel, isn't it better to either take the train, drive, or just not go? When revenues drop, service will improve.
 
2012-07-22 05:28:14 PM

Guairdean: Why are people still flying? Between the TSA and the airline personnel, isn't it better to either take the train, drive, or just not go? When revenues drop, service will improve.


Faster and cheaper. And last time I tried to drive to Japan I ended up with a huge insurance headache.

Of course, I also try to just let the hassles of it go instead of raising my blood pressure.
 
2012-07-22 06:00:32 PM

Guairdean: Why are people still flying? Between the TSA and the airline personnel, isn't it better to either take the train, drive, or just not go? When revenues drop, service will improve.



Zero problems with the TSA here. You sound like someone who gets outraged over nothing. Show up an hour before a flight, pack light, good to go.

Great idea to drive though, highway deaths aren't high enough.
 
2012-07-22 06:42:43 PM

Bell-fan: And needing the animal... and that he has experienced traumatic brain damage in service that left him without the ability to READ.


The dog can READ?
 
2012-07-22 06:45:28 PM
they have to let the service animal onto the airplane. but if someone on the flight is allergic to dogs, i forget if the person with the service animal or the person who is allergic is the one that is inconvenienced. one has to be put on another plane.
 
2012-07-22 08:38:06 PM

intelligent comment below: Zero problems with the TSA here. You sound like someone who gets outraged over nothing. Show up an hour before a flight, pack light, good to go.


This makes me wonder if the TSA expects all terrorists to show up late and have lots of luggage?
 
2012-07-22 08:43:46 PM

SlothB77: they have to let the service animal onto the airplane. but if someone on the flight is allergic to dogs, i forget if the person with the service animal or the person who is allergic is the one that is inconvenienced. one has to be put on another plane.


From the US Department of Transportation, Frequently Asked Questions:

Category: Civil Rights & Accessibility
Question: What do I do if I have severe allergies to something I encounter on a public transportation system (i.e., service animals, cigarette smoke at bus stops, etc.)?

Answer: Encountering cigarette smoke, service animals, and other potential allergens is a function of going out in public. Adoption of a no smoking policy at bus stops is a local issue and is not covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA); however, you may contact your local transit authority to discuss such a concern. Under Department of Transportation (DOT) ADA regulations at 49 C.F.R. Section 37.167(d), public transit providers are required to allow trained service animals to accompany riders on vehicles.


Translation: Service animal trumps allergies. If the allergy is a contact allergy, the transportation company should do what they can to make sure the animal and the allergic person do not come into contact. If the allergy causes respiratory issues, then the transportation company should make other arrangements for the allergy sufferer.
 
2012-07-22 08:45:40 PM
Apparently I picked the wrong day to view a thread on Fark.
 
2012-07-22 09:13:30 PM

Guairdean: Why are people still flying? Between the TSA and the airline personnel, isn't it better to either take the train, drive, or just not go? When revenues drop, service will improve.


In a sane world that would be what happens. Unfortunately the airlines would just get a bailout, which has happened to most of them since way before it was cool.

I know that Air Canada required a wad of cash from the federal government to even get started and that was back in 1936, they didn't have any planes or pilots at that point. Amusingly enough there was another company that had planes and pilots, and even flew some routes already, but they weren't Quebec enough.
 
2012-07-22 09:39:23 PM

Guairdean: Why are people still flying? Between the TSA and the airline personnel, isn't it better to either take the train, drive, or just not go? When revenues drop, service will improve.


I would like to visit my relatives in Asia, I only get 2 weeks vacay a year, and the Boat to China is notoriously slow.
 
2012-07-22 10:03:20 PM

Albarelli: He misunderstood the retarded comment, they were just trying to see if he was interested in employment at Dulles.


"You don't have to be retarded to work here, but it PUDDING!"
 
2012-07-22 10:35:50 PM

consider this: gadian: No, that was addressed. You're just a stupid sack of shiat that doesn't know anything about potty training service dogs or any other dog for that matter.

Service dogs are not better trained than any other housebroken dog you farking ignorant asshole. It's farking amazing that you're so goddamn stupid that you think that a service animal is able to hold it any longer than any other trained dog.


There are people that have to deal with you, in real life, on a daily basis. I feel much sorrow for those folks.
 
2012-07-23 12:10:52 AM
Service dogs are not better trained than any other housebroken dog you farking ignorant asshole. It's farking amazing that you're so goddamn stupid that you think that a service animal is able to hold it any longer than any other trained dog.

I'm not digging back through the thread to find where this was said, but consider this, you are a farking moron. There's a reason that they have a distinction between "Pet" and "Service Animal". Service Animals go through special training beginning more or less from the time they open their eyes. I used to work for Walmart and people would bring in Service Animals In Training all the time so they could teach the animals how to react around large groups of people. If Obedience School is to dogs what Regular School is to humans, then Service Animal training is the farking military.
 
2012-07-23 01:22:09 AM
dlp211, thanks for the helpful comments on training. I really really want to move her out of the bed and into her crate. We have been slowly working getting her comfortable in the crate and hopefully in the next few weeks we will accomplish that task! Till then she does get locked in the bathroom when we are gone, with water, a pee pad, toys, and her bed. So she is as comfortable as I can make her while keeping her confined.

I am also planning on obedience school as soon as possible. She has to have her full range of shots first though and that will be another five weeks. Till then we are using small treats and helpful internet pages to train her to "come" "sit" and "cage". I can't claim good success yet but she's only 10 weeks and we are making progress.

Anyway, I hope you are still following the thread so you see this. Thanks again for all the advice.

Dave
 
2012-07-23 01:31:08 AM

sanitybleeds: Given the fact he only seems to list PTSD as his disability, it seems a bit unlikely he has a "service animal", more likely just an emotional support animal, or as they are often regarded, a pet for someone with an emotional impairment that has no specific training at all.

Secondly, most airport agents don't tend to move around alot from their podium while working a flight, especially one thats delayed, so the fact his dog was anywhere near enough to the agents for them to allegedly kick it tells me he would probably have to be in the wrong place, or allowed his dog to be.

Maybe its because I'm an airline worker, or maybe its because this coming from the Daily Fail, but I pretty much regard this story as a load of crap.


The article states that he has both PSTD and traumatic brain injury. Both of these are recognized disabilities. His service dog is from Paws and Stripes.

From their "about us" page:

Paws and Stripes™ is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization for wounded veterans of our United States military that works to provide service dogs for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Traumatic Brain Injury. The service dogs are obtained only from shelters, and are trained by professionals specializing in service dogs. It is the aim of this organization to provide these dogs and training for no cost to the veteran.
 
2012-07-23 04:41:05 AM

consider this: dlp211: It also only applies to domestic flights,

Wrong, service animals are allowed on all flights.


I would note that as a "qualified yes", actually--when you get into international flights, there are, shall we say, different rules that apply:

a) It's pretty unlikely that in an international flight that a service animal would be allowed in the cabin, especially on foreign-flag airlines (which, once out of FAA airspace, operate under the laws of their country of registry--which may have radically different rules regarding service animals, or may not recognise service animals as being non-pet working animals at all).

b) It is highly unlikely an international flight to a rabies-free country with strict quarantine requirements would allow service animals in the cabin (due to their laws that state that all animals from countries where rabies still exists must undergo lengthy quarantine--even if the critters in question are service animals and even if said service animal has valid vaccination for rabies).

c) Practically all countries require at a minimum a statement from a veterinarian (translated to appropriate language, and if necessary, notarised and apostilled--basically "re-notarised" by an embassy or consulate of the country you're going to) and USDA papers showing the animal is in good health and has valid vaccinations against any diseases of concern. Much like humans aren't let onto planes in "yellow fever" areas of the world without a WHO-issued "yellow card" showing you either have had a yellow fever vaccination or have a valid medical exemption, airlines and air carriers will not let an animal onboard for international travel without the vet statement and USDA certification.

(And no, not kidding about the "yellow fever" thing, either; this is the reason that (unlike a lot of tropical disease vaccines) you pretty much have to go to a specific public health department center to get the yellow fever jab; only certain centers are internationally certified to provide the shot, and you can only get the WHO "yellow card" if you get your yellow fever shot at a certified center. And no, you will not get on the plane to sub-Saharan Africa or parts of South America without that yellow card.)

d) Some of the same countries that have the strictest quarantine requirements also have requirements for fumigation and pre-landing insect spraying that might well preclude these airlines from allowing animals of any sort in the cabin. (New Zealand is particularly notorious for this. Expect to come out of the flight smelling like Raid.)
 
2012-07-23 05:10:22 AM

consider this: davemchine: You sound like a very knowledgeable dog owner and I don't want to disagree with you at all. I would still suggest buying the black light though. I thought my last dog was well trained until I did so. Then I found out one room of my house had become the "pee room" unknown to me. I try to have my carpets cleaned professionally fairly often which may account for why I didn't notice the aroma, or maybe I just got used to it slowly, I don't know.

You're obviously a bad pet owner. Had you properly trained your dog, it would go days without having to relieve itself and when it did, it would remember to put the seat down and flush.


You're cute. *pat pat*

In all seriousness, though (at risk of feeding the troll, probably a bad idea before taking the troll on a flight as they can be prone to keyboard incontinence):

a) As people who have actually worked with service animals have noted, dogs actually can hold it for fairly long periods of time. (BTW, whomever posted re "relieve on command" stuff for Hearing Ear assistance dogs--thanks for the confirmation on that; I'm mostly familiar with the process for training guide dogs for the visually impaired as far as assistance dogs go.)

b) As not only myself but others have noted, at least guide dogs and Hearing Ear dogs (and possibly "alert dogs" and neurological-assistance dogs as well, at least with the newer and more rigorous training programs) are--like many types of working dogs--actually trained to "relieve on command"--that is, they're actually given "housebreaking-plus" training in that not only are they taught not to eliminate inside but are explicitly housebroken to "hold it" until the owner gives a specific "go potty" command.

c) Training for working dogs in general is quite a bit more rigorous than even "good canine citizen" training, and dogs are taught to do many complex tasks (I'm even going beyond service dogs here and noting other types of working dogs including herding dogs and the various types of working dogs used in search-and-rescue ops). I will also note that out of various types of "work" for working dogs, work as a service dog for persons with disabilities is probably among the most challenging; even for "alert dog" and psychiatric-support dog training, there's still quite a lot that "flunk out" and end up adopted as pets, and training as a guide dog or Hearing Ear dog results in probably as many potential "recruits" ending up as well-trained companion animals because they didn't quite "make the grade" to be a full-blown service animal.

(Seriously, it is difficult to underestimate the level of training that service dogs get. It's extremely intensive, IMHO even beyond some of the extensive training that AKC and UKC obedience and working champions undertake...and seeing an actual trained working dog in action is nothing short of amazing. I'm not shocked at all that these pups get taught to poop on command; these are pretty darn smart dogs to keep all of this info in their head!)

d) Interestingly enough, airplanes are one of the few transport situations which would not involve a service animal having to hold it for a good long time--there would actually be a greater likelihood with train travel, bus travel, and car/RV travel than plane travel.

This is because (as myself and others have noted) most domestic flights are generally a maximum of six to eight hours and often are as short as two to four hours between hops and layovers, thus allowing time for "relief breaks" for a service animal; any flight involving more than about eight hours between layovers would be an international flight, which (for many reasons, largely involving vaccination papers, the equivalent of "immigration papers", and lengthy quarantine periods for landing in many rabies-free countries) is not practical to take a service-animal along with and is often prohibited by service-animal sponsoring groups.

e) It's my understanding that this particular fellow had a dog that could be considered either an "alert dog" (warning its owner of things like an oncoming seizure or insulin shock or the like) or a psychiatric-support dog (of the type that tend to especially be notable as service dogs for people with autism). As he has TBE and PTSD it's entirely possible the dog may be serving both functions.

Whilst psychiatric-support dogs probably have the worst "reputation" as far as service dogs go (partly because formal training of psych-support dogs is fairly new, and partly because the concept has been abused a lot by people taking untrained pets to areas and claiming they are psych-support service animals) it would appear the guy is in charge of an actual legitimate training and homing group for psych-support dogs for persons with PTSD, which--if he's following the same general protocols as are used for training of guide dogs, Hearing Ear dogs, and alert dogs--are going to have the same levels of rigorous training (above and beyond the usual "Canine Good Citizen" stuff) that one expects for guide dogs, and probably an equivalent "flunk-out" rate (possibly even higher as these ARE psych-support dogs and an even temperament is a must for this particular category of service animal, even more so than most).

In other words, you're probably dealing with one of the notable cases of a well trained psych-support service animal, and not one that's going to be leaving dog-logs in the cabin (certainly not in an hour-long flight).
 
2012-07-23 05:30:37 AM

consider this: dlp211: Yes, because they are

No, no they're not. There's no magical procedure for training service animals that makes them able to hold it longer than a non-service animal that has also been trained to be house broken.


As others have noted:

a) Working dogs can, and are, routinely trained to "hold it" for extended periods of time, certainly the amount of time any domestic flight in the US would take. (Again, in this case I'm not even just talking service dogs anymore--the K-9 unit at the police station which has had formal Schutzhund training and the search-and-rescue dogs used by your local Civil Defense Disaster and Emergency Services Homeland Security emergency SAR division are also taught to "hold it".)

b) As has been stated, repeatedly, ad nauseum--practically all legitimate service-dog training programs train the dogs to never eliminate indoors and to only eliminate when their owner gives the "go potty" command as an integral part of service dog training. (Of note, this would also seem to include the program his dog is a part of.)

c) If for some reason a service-dog-recruitee (in a legit service-dog training program) doesn't manage to master not eliminating until the owner gives the "go potty" command...IT DOESN'T GET TO BE A SERVICE DOG AT THAT POINT. It might be kept as a companion animal by the trainer or adopted out as a companion animal at that point, but it certainly doesn't get to be a working dog.

(And yes, service dogs can and do get "flunked out" for stuff a lot less noticeable than not being able to hold it until its owner tells it to go potty. If a service animal shows any signs of distractability from task at all, for instance, it gets flunked to "companion animal" status. Usually a service dog that is "flunked out" of a particular kind of service work is generally flunked out of all service work--they don't shuttle a failed guide dog to the Hearing Ear dog training program.)

So yes, service dogs are better at this, and they CAN hold it better than someone whose dog has (at best) had "Canine Good Citizen" training down at the local PetSmart--because they are explicitly trained to do so, and in fact are disqualified from BEING a service dog if they CAN'T. :D

(Seriously, people have no earthly goddamn idea just how rigorous the training is for legitimate service animals. There are flunked-out ex-service-dogs-in-training who can be wonderful companion animals, and even can be trained to earn championship obedience titles--and yet they still flunk out as service dogs because it's that much more exacting and is probably the most demanding work we expect dogs to do on a regular basis. Compared to service-dog work, K-9 police work and even herding are easy in comparison.)
 
2012-07-23 10:51:16 AM
As someone who flew United last week, I am getting a kick. They delayed my two flights over 4 hours, lost my luggage and told me my ticket has been cancelled.
 
2012-07-23 11:44:34 AM
Heading out of state next month on vacation, and i'm taking a bus. fark the TSA and fark the airlines, they have the power but they are not getting a cent of my money.
 
2012-07-23 01:33:18 PM
How sad that this thread evolved into an argument about how long a dog can keep its business and calling into question the legitimacy of this gentleman's PTSD, his service dog and behavior.

While it doesn't matter at all in this case, a lot of service dogs are trained to go on command and they can 'keep it in' for many hours. Whether they can keep it for 18 or 24 hours doesn't even matter. In general service dogs will not 'piss and shiat' in the aisle, no matter if they are in a store, restaurant or on an airplane.

There are no federal requirements for service dogs, so the level of training from one service dog to another can differ significantly. Someone posted that dogs that flunk their training from organisation A might be used as a service dog in organisation B. Could be, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. A dog might not be fit to be a guide dog for the blind for many reasons, but it could still work as a service dog in another capacity. Doesn't make it a bad dog, maybe it just can't guide a blind person in a straight line, but it can still offer other services to a seeing person. Most organisations do not offer their non-graduates to other programs, often the dogs are offered for adoption to the puppy raisers. Some organisations breed dogs for their programs, others allow personal pets to be trained if they meet the organisation's requirements. Even if you personally think it is BS, service dogs of all kinds have rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act (actually, their handlers have rights that extend to the service animals). This is not subject to opinion, so it doesn't really matter if you think a particular service dog should be allowed in public places or not. There are able people that abuse rights given by the ADA and buy/make a service vest for their pet and take this untrained animal everywhere, often messing up things and making things harder for true service dogs.

Back to the gentleman in question here. So he lost his cool at some point. Almost anyone would have gotten upset and maybe verbally abusive. But to question whether he truly has PTSD and suggesting his dog attacked people is just plain trolling. So he didn't rebook on another airline (might have not have enough funds to abandon his paid-for flight and pay for a brand new one, when refund is not guaranteed), he didn't call for help feeding his dog (you can't just find the correct food anywhere - most service dogs are on a strict diet and if you change that, there might be accidents) or contact an organisation to help him. Think about why he has that service dog in the first place: he has traumatic brain injury and PTSD, which can affect his ability to apply himself properly in high-stress situations. Give the guy a break! Did he make up the whole incident? Considering his situation as founder of Paws and Stripes and that he is not asking for any money from anybody, not suing the airline, makes me say 'highly unlikely'.

*Not an expert about service dogs, but as a puppy raiser for Guide Dogs of America I do have some experience with service dogs, and because I have an interest in the matter, I've read up on other kinds of service dogs (including PTSD/vet service dogs) a lot.
 
2012-07-23 07:25:34 PM

davemchine: I agree that the veteran was mistreated as was his dog.

I do want to point out that almost any animal can be certified as a "service animal" with minimal effort. Not all of them have had extensive training and they certainly don't have super bowel powers.

For those who honestly believe their dogs can hold their pee for 12 hours I suggest you do two things. 1) buy a black light so you can see all the places your dog has been peeing inside your house. You will be very surprised. 2) Find an honest friend to tell you what your house smells like.

It's amazing how many dog owners think their homes smell just fine and are completely unaware of the fur balls they call a couch. It's disgusting to visit their homes.

I am a dog owner and I can tell you that dogs need to go outside every 2-4 hours and they still may have accidents inside. They also shed on everything and your floors and couches require cleaning 2-3x a week to stay decent. Also, keep a lint roller next to the door so you can clean off the layer of hair from your clothes before leaving the house to sit in my car. I have carpets upstairs and I'm debating on buying a carpet cleaner or simply swapping out for hardwood floors.


Go with the hardwood. I have two cats, and I've never been happier since I changed over from carpet. Even though you keep vacuuming, there are still hairs that stay stuck in the carpet. If there is an area where you still want the look of carpet, get a large rug. I have a 6' by 8' rug in my living room.

/now if I could just find a hardwood bedspread, I'd be set ;)
 
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