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(Some logical Jesuit guy)   Some smarty-pants HS educator gives a great impromptu analysis of what can be taught to our kids from the Aurora media coverage. Difficulty: lots of words, reason   (geekreflection.blogspot.com) divider line 119
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13766 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Jul 2012 at 2:16 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-21 10:33:22 AM
Reading the statements of people involved in various shootings in the past, I wonder if the family structure in the united states plays into this. In many other countries with lower murder rates there are generations still living in the same household or neighborhood. Here its seen as a godsend to get the fark away from your parents. I wonder if that plays into it.

Also the writer is spot on. And no-one will ever get called on their bullshiat or fired over it either.
 
2012-07-21 10:56:34 AM

weasil: Wow, that was a refreshing read.

Strangely, it's not so dissimilar from what I was planning to do with my 5th-grade class this fall, leading into the presidential election. Read articles, derive the slant, check the credentials, use info from publications on various sides of issues, etc.

Kids need to know how to tell the difference between when they're being informed and when they're being sold something.


I don't believe you, simply for the fact that I can't see you being allowed to do that for very long before some administrator was motivated by an irate parent to "MAKE WEASIL STOP CHALLENGING OUR WORLDVIEW!!!"
 
2012-07-21 11:02:09 AM
I'd rate this number one with a bullet.

/.too soon?
 
2012-07-21 11:19:01 AM

BigBooper: In Israel, where nearly everyone is armed, and where armed guards and metal detectors are in places like schools, shopping malls, and every government building (no, nothing like what we have), attacks continue to happen.


common misconception, outside of the army and security guards with in the green line (pre-1967 boarders) civilian gun ownership is fairly rare. Most Military units are posted at or near the boarder. The security guards may have an assortment of pistols but most are not any more trained then any other countries military that has conscription.

Tl;DR civilian gun ownership in Israel is not high, cops and security guards like everywhere else
 
2012-07-21 11:21:42 AM

Huck And Molly Ziegler: My brain hurts now. I need to go back to a Penn State thread.


My brain hurt yesterday after watching CNN for 10 minutes. Americans actually watch that shiat? I sugget just listening to NPR.
 
2012-07-21 11:29:42 AM
my take on it is America is a psychological wreak.

We push this bullshiat about boot straps and the puritan work ethic (work while there is light, become work while you are not sleeping once the light bulb came around). Than we also push that pills and products will solve all quality of life issues. Unhappy about the fact your life is falling apart and you lost your job? take this pill, buy a new car and suck it up!

We are over stressed, over worked, and over medicated, fed crap (literally and figuratively) and if you aren't keeping up with the Jones while WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!

Greatest life lesson I think I have ever been given was from my Arab Israeli room mate, I was overly taken aback when I asked him how is day was and he gave me a 5 min answer. In the US when someone asks a qualitative question that involves an emotional answer, we answer from a set script of 1-2 word answers (fine, alright, good, great, crappy, etc...) we don't actually answer the question. I realized how screwed up that is and how it's not a healthy way to live. We are all just glass cases of emotion ready to break and told that it's our own damn faults for being human and weak.
 
2012-07-21 11:34:29 AM

butt-nuggets: Metal detectors at movie houses... problem solved


metal detectors everywhere! yay safety
 
2012-07-21 11:44:38 AM

Gdalescrboz: Well we've already introduced universal health care to the masses, might as well top if off with banning the right to bear arms while we are at it


yeh we lost the battle in farking over the masses and denying their expanded access to a capitalist-based private insurance paradigm orginally proposed by conservatives, now trashed as "omfgsoshulism"

let's drag out the "ban every gun" strawman again, needs a good thrashing again!
 
2012-07-21 11:49:40 AM

BigBooper: unicron702: A buddy just wrote this, and I have to share.

For all of you out there who may be thinking, like Congressman Gohmert, that had one or more of the members of the audience for The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, Colorado been armed that he would have been able to successfully neutralize the attack, I would like to remind you of this:

On March 21, 1981, Ronald Reagan, The President of the United States, was shot while surrounded by the best trained bodyguards on planet Earth, all of whom were armed with the very best weaponry and other equipment available. The shooter, John Hinckley, Jr., was not fired at. In fact, he got punched in the head and pulled to the ground by Alfred Antenucci, a Cleveland, Ohio, labor official, who happened to be standing near to Hinckley when he opened fire.

My point, and I say this as a supporter of the right to keep and bear arms, is that other people with guns don't necessarily equal stopping the bad guy or preventing loss of like, The Secret Service didn't open fire on Hinckley because they were in a crowd and they considered the risk of hitting innocent civilians to be too great. Again, these are some of the best trained marksmen on the planet and they think taking shots in that situation is too big of a risk. Why then do these people assume that Joe Citizen should take risks that vastly more qualified individuals would refuse to take and that said risk would pay off?

The sad truth we must all realize is that there is no way to prevent this from happening. No one could have predicted that a madman would shoot up a movie premiere. Or that a kid would shoot up his university, or a high school. There are the acts of madmen. Banning guns wouldn't have stopped it, and armed citizens in the theatre weren't likely to have stopped it either. We don't want to admit this because it's a scary truth. But remember that even though the news coverage will be constant and playing up the fear, the statistical likelihood of being caught in a shooting sp ...

Holy shiat.... Logic and reason on Fark. I....what..... Is this real? am I dreaming? If your not an hallucination, thank you.

In Israel, where nearly everyone is armed, and where armed guards and metal detectors are in places like schools, shopping malls, and every government building (no, nothing like what we have), attacks continue to happen. The sad truth is that if a person wants to kill civilians, they will find a way. Outlaw guns? Simple guns can be made in any machine shop. In fact, with the tools and supplies that you can buy at any big box store, you can make a functioning sub machine gun. Don't believe me? Google it, the designs are out there. And if someone has the skills, they can create explosive, chemical, and biological weapons. Remember, the Omaha city bombing was fertilizer and diesel fuel. If any idiot politician ever wanted to outlaw all the components that can be used to make explosive of chemical weapons, we wouldn't have a single household cleaner, manufacturing, and farming would grind to a halt. As was so well said by the above poster "The sad truth we must all realize is that there is no way to prevent this from happening."

My point? We can't use this event as a spring board for some knee jerk reaction. On the right and left, people are already screaming for new laws. New laws? It's already illegal for the insane to own guns, do we create a new law that's so broad that anyone that's ever been on on anti-depressants, or been treated as ADHD can never own a gun? Or on the other side, you want to eliminate the ability of businesses to stop people from carrying their guns? In this case, and in many other like it, armed citizens would have made no difference.

We need to take slow down, take time, and stop trying to assign blame to a political party, or religion, or any other group. If we do need legislation, it needs to be well crafted and thought out. Sure, we need to figure out how we can identify people like James Holmes and Jared Loughner, and intervene before they commit violence. But any such legislation needs to be well written and narrow. We must not allow attention seeking politicians to push through poorly and quickly written legislation just so they can gain some political points off this. Outlawing guns is not going to help. But neither is having a population where everyone is armed at all times.

Oh, what I'm I thinking, the attention whores in congress will have hearing by next week, and a dozen bills will be introduced before the end of the month. After all, why let a tragedy like this go to waste?

/sometimes I despise my government
//but only the elected part


if you think a dozen new gun-regulation bills will be introduced by this congress bc of this (let alone be passed), you are out to lunch

nothing will change
 
2012-07-21 11:56:47 AM
GD. Sure took him long enough to get there, but, although wordy as hell, this is correct ...

We are past the time where we can rely on the conclusions of experts and those who interview the experts to act as our filters. We are past the time where students need only be taught to make sure that a source has the proper bona fides to be trusted. It is time that we take responsibility for our own information management systems and develop tools and curriculum that provide students the skills and capacity to take responsibility for theirs.

Which can be summed up in a lot less wordiness as ...

Grow the f*** up.
 
2012-07-21 12:26:22 PM

dobro: Well put unicron702 (if that is your real name) I agree with that except I don't believe the second amendment provides for individuals to own guns. I would add that I believe it also does not deny that either. It is a states rights issue. "well regulated militia" being the key phrase.


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" does not limit "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms", it is a reason for the right.
Just because the government has enough guns to pass around in the event of war that drafts people into service, does not forfeit that right. Nor does the States lack of requirements to train in arms use and drill in military tactics.
 
2012-07-21 12:29:44 PM
FTA: We cannot rely on the the fact-checking of the news agencies


media.tumblr.com

Well, there's your problem right there.
 
2012-07-21 12:30:57 PM

Yes this is dog: rocky_howard: What's the rate for those numbers?

I mean, homicide in the US is 4.8 for exactly how many people? 100,000? 1,000,000? And does the suicide chart use the same rate?


Both are per 100,000.


So people in Japan suicide around 5 times the amount of homicides in America?

SHEEEEIT!!!!
 
2012-07-21 12:40:19 PM

BuckTurgidson: You know, somebody should write a book about that kind of BS: About how mass media attempts to pass off crap as news.

And about how Internet news aggregation sites bust their ankles tripping over themselves to overflow the cesspool.

And dedicate their sites to nurturing and coddling professional sociopaths who increase the news aggregators' site's deceptive market numbers by doing nothing but prolifically and blatantly irritating normal people into responding to patently insincere provocations.

That might be a good book.


dammit, drew, use the shameless plug tag!
 
2012-07-21 12:40:41 PM

MarkEC: dobro: Well put unicron702 (if that is your real name) I agree with that except I don't believe the second amendment provides for individuals to own guns. I would add that I believe it also does not deny that either. It is a states rights issue. "well regulated militia" being the key phrase.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" does not limit "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms", it is a reason for the right.
Just because the government has enough guns to pass around in the event of war that drafts people into service, does not forfeit that right. Nor does the States lack of requirements to train in arms use and drill in military tactics.


The real question should be if the "arms" in question are useful in a militia engagement.

This would be fully permitting rocket launchers and automatic weapons, while not permitting handguns or shotguns. (This particular incident in Aurora, along with the Beltway Sniper, are particularly notable for the perp using a rifle)
 
2012-07-21 12:58:39 PM

born_yesterday: weasil: Wow, that was a refreshing read.

Strangely, it's not so dissimilar from what I was planning to do with my 5th-grade class this fall, leading into the presidential election. Read articles, derive the slant, check the credentials, use info from publications on various sides of issues, etc.

Kids need to know how to tell the difference between when they're being informed and when they're being sold something.

I don't believe you, simply for the fact that I can't see you being allowed to do that for very long before some administrator was motivated by an irate parent to "MAKE WEASIL STOP CHALLENGING OUR WORLDVIEW!!!"


Strange thing is, I can defend myself with the California State Standards, which actually require me to teach how to discern such things, and at that grade level, too. Of course, they intended it so kids could evaluate commercials, not political rhetoric, but....

I totally expect to get crap from parents on the "other side" of whatever it is I have the kids read. I plan on telling them to pick an article they think more accurately represents the viewpoint, I'll give it to the kids, and then we can tear that apart in class, too.

Whatever, just doing my job... in as snarky a way as I can devise.
 
2012-07-21 06:39:23 PM

hubiestubert: Americans have ALWAYS been addicted to quick fixes for complex problems. In part, because we are a nation of folks who figured our best bet was to start all over with a fresh start. That has colored our thinking for a long time. Opportunity and freedom are our drugs of choice. Opportunity is the opiate of the masses, not television. EVERYONE has the opportunity to become a millionaire we are taught. Land of opportunity. That is the monomyth that our nation is founded upon.

To guarantee that freedom and that opportunity, takes some work, and most folks don't like the sort of work that it entails. It takes away from the day to day concerns. We are a nation built by farmers and intellectuals, printers and machinists, engineer and educators, but we have always somewhat feared the intelligentsia, because there is a creeping distrust in the idea that some folks might use those smarts to be MOAR equal than others. We like the myth that everyone is equal, but we'd prefer it if WE were MOAR equal, and better, and that is, in part, why we love the feet of clay stories. We like heroes, but we LOVE when they tumble and fall.


You'll notice that America is unique in that we very recently (historically speaking) had the space and ability to just haul stakes and leave when we needed opportunity. Even as recently as the 1930's someone with problems at home could just hop a train, go a couple hundred miles west, and start all over again. There was still space and opportunity "out west". In Europe, they haven't had that kind of option for over a thousand years--which was about the last time Europeans were randomly killing each other without repercussion.

And America is unique compared to other former British colonies in that pretty much all the country was equally inhabitable. Moving away from the cities was less of an option in Australia (big interior desert) or Canadia (half the country is covered in ice). So Americans got used to the idea they could just pack up and leave when things got messy. And the overall wealth of the country ensured that anyone COULD go west and make their fortune, comparatively speaking--if you started as a starving immigrant laborer in New York City, then things were 1000% better when you filed your homestead claim and had to become a farmer, but it was your OWN farm.

America has reached the point where we can't expand much more, and now we have to learn to live with each other; if we seem to be having more problems it's only because in Europe they had to figure it out in 1400, and they've had more time to adjust.
 
2012-07-21 07:42:12 PM
Lots of incredibly insightful analysis by hubiestubert; thanks for weighing in, I always learn something when you do.

Gyrfalcon: America has reached the point where we can't expand much more, and now we have to learn to live with each other; if we seem to be having more problems it's only because in Europe they had to figure it out in 1400, and they've had more time to adjust.


That, and the US was handed a thousand years of natural wealth in under a century, so much that it seemed like it could never be exhausted, and thanks to technology also interconnected faster than any other society in history, so we skipped out on developing the natural tribalism and hatred that splits nations apart. (Civil War excepted.) We're remarkably homogenous for such a huge territory. A century of manifest destiny and a half-century as international victor and leader of the free world made it genuinely seem like we could just grow and annex and export our way out of any problem, and it will probably be generations more before it really sinks in that there just isn't any empty land to do that anymore.

jayphat: Also the writer is spot on. And no-one will ever get called on their bullshiat or fired over it either.


That's because when newscasters and the agencies that employ them consider themselves experts now, so there's no need to go find anyone else when they have already have enough of their own opinions. In their minds, they really are quoting experts, even if it's just some talking head on another channel, since they'd expect to also be quoted as an expert if they made the same pronouncement.

born_yesterday: weasil: Wow, that was a refreshing read.

Strangely, it's not so dissimilar from what I was planning to do with my 5th-grade class this fall, leading into the presidential election. Read articles, derive the slant, check the credentials, use info from publications on various sides of issues, etc.

Kids need to know how to tell the difference between when they're being informed and when they're being sold something.

I don't believe you, simply for the fact that I can't see you being allowed to do that for very long before some administrator was motivated by an irate parent to "MAKE WEASIL STOP CHALLENGING OUR WORLDVIEW!!!"


That, and many school admins are as authoritarian yet spineless as they come, so at least one would probably get upset the first time any student in the class questioned a school policy, then use the excuse that some parent might complain, so better to shut it down.
 
2012-07-21 08:05:23 PM

johnscjr: I had this on TV this morning as white noise. My 12 year old daughter came downstairs and started watching, I thought it would be unfair to change the channel to try to shield her from the news so I let her watch and when she had questions or needed explanations, (the town we live in is named Aurora also, but not in CO). I explained to her as well as I could that sometimes people do things for no explainable reason and that very rarely, really sick people do really sick things, again for no explainable reasons.

But the best part of our conversation came about 20 minutes after she came downstairs and she called BS on the Today show for showing the same video clip and saying the same information as they did earlier. "Why are they saying this again dad?" she asked. I told her why - "because they have no more information yet so they just say the same thing over and over" I told her. My daughter then got up from where she was sitting, walked across the room to where I was and although there was no contest involved, she looked at me like she had beaten me in a game and grabbed the remote and changed my white noise from the Today show to something on the Disney Channel.

Can't say I missed any news though, so I suppose if it was a game, she did win didn't she?


yes she did. and you should look up the definition of "white noise". have a good day.
 
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