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(Sports Illustrated)   Penn State trustees vote to take Happy Valley out of the Bronze Age   (tracking.si.com) divider line 162
    More: Hero, Happy Valley, Penn State, Beaver Stadium, Joe Paterno, NFL Network, board of trustees, Kimberly Jones  
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6531 clicks; posted to Sports » on 20 Jul 2012 at 3:31 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-07-20 01:38:45 PM  
5 votes:
So...all you PSU defenders....you all seem to repeat the same things: don't punish the students, Paterno is dead/let it go, PSU football brings in a lot of money....

I've always wanted to ask you folks a question: how much pedophile/rape is too much? Because I'd really like to know where your limits are...see, to me - any amount of rape is evil. And pedophile rape is simply unacceptable under any/all circumstances. But you guys...you all seem ok with covering up a decade of pedo rape. so - what's the breaking point? how many lives destroyed? how many kids have to suffer before you say enough is enough?
2012-07-20 01:33:04 PM  
5 votes:

doglover:

None of the students did anything to aid or were even aware of this cover up. It all happened ages ago, and the people you want to punish are dead and already in jail for life. Nothing you do now to the University will hit the people who caused your emotional hurt. It would be like the USAF bombing Tokyo again tomorrow because of what happened at Pearl Harbor.


do you not understand the concept of 'corporate culture'? An organization can develop an internal culture that perpetuates it's values beyond the lifespan of any single individual. And what Paterno did to Penn State was to foster a poisonous culture that said 'protect the football program at all costs'. That has to change...and the only way to change it, is to significantly purge the football program of most of its people. That's what we did with Japan and Germany at the end of WWII - we went through their culture, their government, their economy and we rebuilt them from the ground up. We should do the same with Penn State - rebuild it from the ground up.
2012-07-20 12:17:41 PM  
5 votes:

sigdiamond2000: Yep, nevar forget who the true victims are here:


The kids who got abused?

The question you need to ask yourself is who are villains? Could the villains be JoePa, the president of the school, the board of trustees, the local police who refused to arrest Sandusky for a decade, the DA who refused to charge him in 2000, the AG of PA, now governor, who knew that Sandusky was raping kids but did nothing to stop it because Sandusky and the members of the Second Mile Club were large GOP donors and the party wanted to win the 2010 elections?
2012-07-20 01:33:30 PM  
4 votes:

doglover: WTF Indeed: The My Little Pony Killer: Wrong. Canceling the program removes the institution that was working so hard to cover up the child abuse in the first place. The entire town is incredibly tied into the football program. They're all crying that they'll suffer. Cut the ties, let them fall, and then allow them the space that they need in order to build themselves back up- SANS the close ties to the football program.

Have you ever been to State College? Or are you judging what PSU is on your frame of reference which is football?

He obviously doesn't know the layout of the campus, let alone the economics or the spirit of the law.

Basically it's just a bunch of people who are angry with no outlet. Kids got molested. BY SANDUSKY. Go to jail, haul him out, string him up. Oh wait, that would make sense and also be illegal. Joe Pa and Spanier covered it up. Let's get them! Oh wait, one's dead and the other's gone pecan. Finding him woul be work.

Oh, I know! Let's punish the students and alumni with draconian punishments that would only affect people who couldn't possibly have been involved in any way shape or form. Yeah, that's the ticket.


You know there are three kinds of justice generally recognized as underlying the philosophies of our criminal justice system:
1) Rehabilitative Justice: generally out of favor these days, it is the idea that the criminal punishement should consider ways to allow the crimional to reform/better themselves and re-entry society as a productive citizen
2)Punitive Justice: That the state standing int he shoes of the victim has a right/duty to extract some manner of revenge on the offender equal to the harm they caused.

and, most importnatly from a societal perspective:
3) Exemplary Justice: That the punishement of the offender serve as an example and warning to others criminally inclined and be severe enough to make them hesitate from ever doing something similar.

You can argue the "innocence" of the student body, the student atheletes, etc all you want. The simple fact is, it does not matter. An example MUST be made of Penn State or this or worse, WILL happen again. The rank and file partner at Arthur Anderson was an honest, hard-working accountant who thought they had a job for life and never did anything wrong. But people at the top of Arthur Andersen did some VERY wrong things and allowed the Enron scandal to happen. The company DESERVED the "death penalty" it got, even if that meant that thousands of "innocent" workers were sudden on the street with no jobs

Same thing here. The NCAA MUST expel Penn State completely and permanently or surrender all its remaining credibility as the policeman of college sports. ( iwould pass a rule saying any NCAA school could offer a scholarship to a Penn State athelete, and have it not count against their scholarship caps (make them freebies essentially).

Penn State as an instutition should dynamite their football stadium and never again have a football program. Perhaps they can have intermural basketball or baseball or whatever, but football needs to be done at that school forever. (See Chiacago, Univeristy of, for precedent on how this works)
2012-07-20 01:11:24 PM  
4 votes:

WTF Indeed: The My Little Pony Killer: The administration that helped cover it up.

Is no longer there. So punishing the school now is the same as firing someone than punishing his replacement for former employees crimes.

The My Little Pony Killer: Why are you so against the right people being punished here?

How does canceling the football program punish the AG for not arresting Sandusky in 2005 when he knew he was molesting kids?


You know what? fark you, and fark Penn State. That whole farking town created a cult of personality that fostered this whole criminal conspiracy. The administrators and JoePa didn't cover up CHILD RAPE in a farking vacuum. The sickening behavior of the Penn State student population only reinforces that fact. They need to be beaten and whipped by the press and the NCAA, and the whole athletic department needs a multi-year ban from NCAA competition. People with athletic scholarships should be allowed to stay at Penn State with their original scholarship intact or be allowed to transfer to another program penalty-free.
2012-07-20 12:22:40 PM  
4 votes:

WTF Indeed: sigdiamond2000: Yep, nevar forget who the true victims are here:

The kids who got abused?

The question you need to ask yourself is who are villains? Could the villains be JoePa, the president of the school, the board of trustees, the local police who refused to arrest Sandusky for a decade, the DA who refused to charge him in 2000, the AG of PA, now governor, who knew that Sandusky was raping kids but did nothing to stop it because Sandusky and the members of the Second Mile Club were large GOP donors and the party wanted to win the 2010 elections?


There's plenty of blame to go around, including, but not limited to the football program.
2012-07-20 12:01:00 PM  
4 votes:
Follow-up: Dumbass students form human wall between bulldozer and statue.

And they don't deserve the hero tag, they deserve the obvious tag, since it's obvious it needed to come down. The hero tag would've been warranted had they performed these actions the second they were brough to attention.
2012-07-20 04:15:51 PM  
3 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: What are you talking about? First of all, I have no power to punish the truly guilty. Second, fine. Let's investigate Corbett and put him in jail, too. When did I say that I wanted the punishment to end after the death penalty and the statue being removed forever?

By punishing the students and business in the town for a crime they did not commit you are wronging them. The entire town should not suffer for the crimes of a few of it's citizens.


By punishing Sandusky we're wronging his family, employees, acquaintances, etc etc so let's not put him in jail either yada yada. Way to rehash the old stuff there.

Still waiting on that citation too.
2012-07-20 04:03:04 PM  
3 votes:
Penn State Thread ™

**** Spoiler Alert ****

Here's what will happen in this thread:

Around comment 100 (about now) almost everyone will ignore the topic at hand and move to the following 10 talking points:

1. Rational Person will say "perhaps Penn State's football team should be shut down for a time, since the cover-up was due to the excessive amount of power people like Paterno had in the University."
1a. Penn State Apologist/Troll will rebut: "but innocent people will be harmed - the whole community relies on football."
1b. Rational Person will respond: "that's too bad, innocent people sometimes get hurt - lots of innocent Arthur Andersen employees lost their jobs, but the government still banned the firm from auditing public companies (effectively putting them out of business)"
1c. Penn State Apologist: "But the football players didn't do anything."
1d. Rational Person: "See 1b"
1e. Penn State Apologist: "But Football! Why are you blaming everyone rather than the PEOPLE responsible"
1f. Rational Person: "See 1b. And because institutions can create situations in which otherwise good people act in horrifying ways. The institution needs to be changed to avoid some other horrible situation being covered up. Also See 1b."

2. Penn State Apologist: "You're all just here to feel good about yourselves and form a lynch mob."

3. (Semi-)Rational Person: "We should just nuke Happy Valley from Orbit."

4. Someone will make a rape joke. Can't remember if they are supposed to be funny.

5. Penn State Apologist: "Y'all just don't understand Happy Valley and what football means to our precious snowflakes."

6. Someone Else: "Lawsuits will take of the program anyways."

7. Penn State Apologist: "Y'all just want to get back at the football players who bullied you in high school. Oh and, Too Big to Fail."

8. Someone Else: "Well this isn't really within the NCAA's jurisdiction anyway."

9. Yet Another Poster: "It's like the Catholic Church! And Michael Jackson!"

10. Troll: "Well it's just about defending gay sex, amIright!"
2012-07-20 01:31:28 PM  
3 votes:

IAmRight: Di Atribe: send the message that this type of behavior will not be tolerated & they won't look the other way

I guess being fired, vilified throughout the nation and potentially jailed isn't a deterrent, but taking away a football program would stop people from covering things up. Because threat of sanctions against a football program has prevented coaches and administrators from doing other unethical things that are within the NCAA's scope of control.


Part of the problem is that many in Happy Valley don't understand that Paterno was a vile excuse for a human being. "Other unethical things" is really weak in comparison to "paying a cash bonus to a serial child rapist and ensuring he has continued access to the rape facilities in addition to his freedom while the victims, ever growing in number, suffer in silence."
2012-07-20 01:21:25 PM  
3 votes:
I was expecting them to just cover it up for 14 years.
2012-07-20 12:13:10 PM  
3 votes:

WTF Indeed: That's not enough. They need to tear the school down, brick by brick. It's the only way to make sure that the students who had no knowledge of the crimes are made to suffer for the few administrators that did.


Yep, nevar forget who the true victims are here:

cdn.bleacherreport.net
2012-07-21 04:13:06 PM  
2 votes:
The Paterno statue should be relocated to one of the stadium's men's washrooms, to serve as the centerpiece of a large community urinal.
2012-07-21 10:45:52 AM  
2 votes:
Again, as a holder of 2 degrees from PSU, I fully support melting down the statue and not allowing football at PSU for a few years. Make an example out of the situation for other institutions to look at: protecting corporate culture is no excuse for covering up over a decade of lewd, illegal activity.

Bring honor back to PSU through academics.
2012-07-21 01:34:45 AM  
2 votes:
For everyone saying that these excessive punishments only hurt the innocent students and football program, let me ask you a question? Don't you think the administrators and trustees should have thought about that before making decisions based off of greed and self-preservation?

Hitting Penn State where it hurts is necessary to get their attention and hopefully gets the attention of the rest of the NCAA
2012-07-21 12:29:39 AM  
2 votes:

WhyteRaven74: BTW Penn State is likely going to have some explicit NCAA violations to answer for too. Like how football players have been treated different when it comes to discipline than any other students. That's not allowed by NCAA rules, and the Freeh report supplied evidence of it. And it wasn't this one guy or these guys, it was the team, season after season. And the AD and others knew about this.


I hope the NCAA hits PSU's football program with everything they've got. Shut 'em down, at least for a couple years.
2012-07-21 12:26:32 AM  
2 votes:

geom_00:

I have voiced this before: What would be the economic impact of the small towns around PSU if they would not play football? I am NOT saying play or not play. I am just asking.


what's the price point on a raped kid? that's what you're really asking you know. you're saying 'hey, so a couple kids got raped - PSU is too big to fail!' so...what's the price point on a rape? how many kids have to be raped before you consider the economic impact worth dealing with the potential backlash of a pile of traumatized kids would bring to the table....?
2012-07-21 12:24:49 AM  
2 votes:
BTW Penn State is likely going to have some explicit NCAA violations to answer for too. Like how football players have been treated different when it comes to discipline than any other students. That's not allowed by NCAA rules, and the Freeh report supplied evidence of it. And it wasn't this one guy or these guys, it was the team, season after season. And the AD and others knew about this.
2012-07-21 12:17:02 AM  
2 votes:

I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: Also, the B1G could remove just PSU football and keep the other sports. It's not without precedence, but then we're back to your whole all-or-nothing approach.

So how is that "not about football"? Please, lead my simplistic mind down this trail of enlightenment.

I said that the coverup wasn't done to gain anything tangible "football-wise" and was instead Joe covering up for a friend because Sandusky hasn't been part of the program since 1999. In an indirect way the argument could be made that because recruits didn't know he was a pedophile that was advantageous but that seems to be a stretch.

tl;dr - You're not making sense.Unless you can define what "not about football" pertains to or could point me towards what I said that you keep referencing.


PSU football made a LOT of money while Sandusky was on his rape binge. had that story gone public, odds are Paterno would have been in trouble, the football program would have suffered and the cash flow would have slowed. Paterno covered up the rapes and pretended nothing was wrong and made serious cash for doing so, as did the university. lots of people directly benefited from the Sandusky cover up.

that's yet another reason PSU football needs to be shut down for a while.
2012-07-20 11:44:45 PM  
2 votes:
No football program = no reason to cover up child rape to protect football program

If other schools are covering up child rape to protect their football programs then shut down their football programs too. Same thing if a school's theoretical mathematics program or any other program is so protected that monstrous things are done and hidden in the name of protecting rhe program. Penn State cant handle football. Football handles Renn State. Burn down football to save the worthwhile parts.
2012-07-20 11:34:21 PM  
2 votes:

I had Snu Snu: If you think the fanbase of that school is nuts now, what do you think they will be like if you take away the entire program?


Who.

Gives.

A.

Fark?

Seriously, you're arguing that Penn State should not get further sanctions because a bunch of crackerass crackers in Central Pennsylvania would have a persecution complex because of it. That's pathetic.
2012-07-20 10:45:38 PM  
2 votes:

I had Snu Snu: I would be first in line to tear down the statue if it was possible and I hope him and (hopefully very very soon) Jerry are rotting and burning in the deepest and darkest depths of hell along with anybody who could have done anything to stop their actions. I don't care about his records because I've always thought that was an impotent punishment in every case. That doesn't mean nuking the entire program just to make ourselves feel better. Justice is more complicated than that.


You don't nuke the program to make anyone feel better. You nuke the program because the worst scandal in college sports history deserves the worst punishment available.
2012-07-20 10:15:19 PM  
2 votes:
This is what needs to happen.
Penn State should do this on it's own, without sanctions.

Tear down the JoePa memorial and replace it with a football player taking a knee. On the plaque behind it list the names of the victims "We kneel in honor, of those who had the courage to stand up."

Shut down the football program for one year "take a knee". Change the uniforms for the following season. Remove as many visual reminders of the old program as possible. Nothing in that school should have Paterno's name on it. We're not disgracing 46 years of good service, he did that on his own.

The university pays for all transfer costs and tuition/board fees of athletes that want to leave. They cover everything. These kids should be taken care of for the rest of their education.

I don't know what sickens me more. What we know about all this, or what we will never know. Was he doing this as a defensive coordinator? His entire adult life? What about the missing DA? This went all the way up the athletic director, then to the vice president of the school. What about the children's foundation? Scary stuff.
2012-07-20 07:07:05 PM  
2 votes:
m.static.newsvine.com

/ img tag fail
2012-07-20 05:08:24 PM  
2 votes:
Listen, you kidrape defenders too damn dumb to get it... The EXACT farking reason this happened was the cult like worship of a football program. The EXACT correct response is to demolish that program so that even dolts like you begin to comprehend what YOU ARE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALLOWING TO OCCUR.
2012-07-20 04:43:32 PM  
2 votes:

Millennium: gimmegimme: sethstorm: you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.

Seriously. Freedom of speech sucks.

Freedom of speech doesn't actually give you the right to be disruptive or destructive, nor to commit sabotage. This is something a lot of protesters forget: speech cannot be criminal, but the way you go about it (or what you try to do with it) certainly can be.


For the record, I find the concept of 'free speech zones' to be highly offensive.
2012-07-20 04:36:51 PM  
2 votes:

I had Snu Snu: I really don't understand what cancelling the football program will accomplish.


it's the only way to make sure that PSU football's amoral culture of 'protect the football program at all costs' goes away. look - when we took over Japan at the end of WWII, we tore down their entire government and rebuilt it from the ground up. why? because we wanted to make sure that we wouldn't have to come back and bomb the crap outta them 20 years later. same thing with Penn State - we need to tear down their entire football program and rebuild it over the next 5-8 years so that we know beyond any possibility of doubt that we've changed their entire internal culture.
2012-07-20 04:35:23 PM  
2 votes:

I had Snu Snu: I really don't understand what cancelling the football program will accomplish. Is this punishment to make sure something like this never happens again or is it just revenge for one of the most terrible and disgusting and despicable acts to occur in recent memory? Of course things need to change but what does taking away football change? It will make things worse and polarize this issue even further and will have more and more people screaming that they're victims.

The beautiful thing about sports is that they can make us forget about all the awful shiat in the world, even if only for a little bit. Sports bring us together. If handled properly the PSU football team can help ease this situation and IMO they've gotten off to a pretty good start by changing the entire leadership structure and getting ride of all the "good ole boys" that ran the program for so long. The statue should come down no questions asked, Penn State should probably be kicked out of the B1G but eliminating the football program will only make a bad situation worse. Sandusky is going to die in prison, JoePa is dead, everybody else that had ever heard of this scandal/coverup should be locked away for as long as is allowable under the laws of the state of Pennsylvania but going after the whole football program just reeks of revenge.

If Jerry Sandusky was a Physics teacher and Joe was the dean of the science dept. would people be yelling for the entire science program to be shut down? No, because it wouldn't make any sense and would accomplish absolutely nothing.


I tend to think there would be MASSIVE restructuring of the science department in that case and I'm willing to bet there would be no classes in that department for a little while. Just like people are suggesting that Penn State football take a time out until they can restructure.
2012-07-20 04:29:31 PM  
2 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Why didn't you answer the question I posed after answering yours?

Because you are assuming that I believe God controls all aspects of mankind, when in reality the Bible shows us that He doesn't.

Now, will you also admit that the canceling of the football program would most directly affect the students on the football team?


Why would you worship a deity that isn't all-powerful? It's like marrying a woman you don't think is attractive or smart and isn't rich or good in bed.

Your questions are silly. I am very sorry that there will be some unintentional unpleasantness for the many folks in the Penn State community who had nothing to do with the serial child rape. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is. You and I are not allowed to buy ten packs of Sudafed at once because of crazy meth people. Too bad; shiat happens. I'm a Buckeye fan who was VERY angry with Terrelle Pryor and Jim Tressel and didn't spend months denying all of the shady stuff went down. Am I enduring some "pain" right now because of the actions of the few? Sure. Too bad. Shiat happens.
2012-07-20 04:23:17 PM  
2 votes:

Millennium: FriarReb98: This. We are going to go through a round of ITG vs White Knights every single time we have this thread, but it doesn't change anything. It doesn't undo Sandusky's deeds, doesn't change the environment of a small town with a national football program, doesn't make society change one bit. Until the entire society of college football changes, it won't do anything.

Precisely. Taking down the statue is an important step toward that goal.

But killing the program isn't the answer, either.

Yes, actually, it is. In places that have shown they cannot be trusted with football, the answer is to take away football for a time, let them rebuild their culture without it, and then -when football no longer has the central place that makes this form of societal corruption possible- reintroduce it.


It's the same as when you find out your teenager can't be trusted with the family car because he was driving at an hour he wasn't supposed to. You take the car away for some period of time and let the kid figure out the proper use and place of a car in his life.
2012-07-20 02:20:49 PM  
2 votes:

TheYeti: Weaver95: good. it's a step in the right direction, an indication that the administration is starting to understand that protecting the Paterno cult is a bad thing to do.

Agreed. If they are smart the next step will be a voluntary one year suspension of the football program.


i'd prefer five years....but that wouldn't be a bad idea either.
2012-07-20 02:04:17 PM  
2 votes:

thomps: but i guess if you are going to go down that road you have to ask yourself: once the head and coach are both removed from the hospital in shackles, do you tear down the hospital or hire new people with the moral fiber not to stomp babies?


a more apt comparison would be to stop delivering babies at that hospital. And yes, you might want to disband your maternity ward if it turns out one of the top doctors has been murdering the babies and you covered it up for decades to personally enrich yourself.

in the end, Joe Paterno and the other implicated people covered up the rape of children so they could get rich. how anyone can possibly defend that is quite beyond me.
2012-07-20 01:59:01 PM  
2 votes:

IAmRight: Weaver95: I've always wanted to ask you folks a question: how much pedophile/rape is too much?

I'll answer it when you answer whether or not you've stopped beating your wife and stomping on newborn babies in order to get yourself off yet.


If you are the head of the hospital and you know the assistant birthing coach at your hospital is stomping on newborn babies and has been doing it for decades...do you call the cops? Or do you do the humane thing and give him a cash bonus and the right to use the maternity ward whenever he likes?
2012-07-20 01:34:31 PM  
2 votes:
I heard they weren't tearing it down but moving it to the library where it can remind everyone to keep quiet.
2012-07-20 01:17:30 PM  
2 votes:
good. it's a step in the right direction, an indication that the administration is starting to understand that protecting the Paterno cult is a bad thing to do.
2012-07-20 12:58:10 PM  
2 votes:
I don't think it is appropriate to have a statue honoring a man who allowed children to get sexually abused and assisted in covering it up and then lied to a grand jury about it. it should come down.
2012-07-20 12:31:30 PM  
2 votes:

WTF Indeed: Krymson Tyde: There's plenty of blame to go around, including, but not limited to the football program.

Who is more to blame. The football program or the people who actively did nothing while children were being raped because reporting it would hurt them. The college admins didn't report it because it would hurt the school, the police and DA didn't report it for the same reason. The AG didn't do anything about it because he needed money to fund the GOP.

I don't give a shiat about football, but canceling the football program doesn't punish anyone that should be rightly punished. It only makes radio show hosts feel good.


Wrong. Canceling the program removes the institution that was working so hard to cover up the child abuse in the first place. The entire town is incredibly tied into the football program. They're all crying that they'll suffer. Cut the ties, let them fall, and then allow them the space that they need in order to build themselves back up- SANS the close ties to the football program.
2012-07-20 12:05:23 PM  
2 votes:
They better get the riot police and National Guard ready.
2012-07-20 11:59:03 AM  
2 votes:
Wow.

That said, this isn't heroic.
2012-07-21 03:29:27 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: It's because in this case the players weren't involved with the scandal.


The players at USC werent involved with the payments given to Reggie Bush's family but they got punished with a bowl ban
The Players at Ohio state who werent involved in the Tat-5 scandal wont go to a bowl game next year

The NCAA has a precedent, right or wrong of punishing the institution since most players are only there for 1-3 years anyways. A star player, even if not eligible for the next level is probably only a year away and wont feel the pain. The burden is then placed on the University.
2012-07-21 11:47:52 AM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: Millennium: Joe's martyrdom is fading, as people come to their senses about him

Millennium: The continued prevalence of Paterno-apologists proves it.

Soooooo, which is it?

Honest question: Do you think you can really change the culture of that community just by taking away the football team for a few years? Wouldn't actually changing the culture be more effective at changing the culture? Like they've done and been doing?


They're not changing the culture, just the leaders. This is the problem. To change a culture, you've got to replace the people at its core, who as often as not aren't the leaders themselves. Paterno's death would have helped in this had he not been idolized quite so much, but even in such a case, he was only the central figure: replacing him alone would not have been enough.

Ultimately, though, if you look at the way people are changing, you'll find two groups: the adults who are coming to their senses, and the students -who vastly outnumber the adults- who are not. You can't simply expel them all, of course, but you can radically alter the environment to remove the cancer: PSU football. A six-year death penalty allows for a virtually-complete turnover in the student body before football is allowed to return: there may be a few grad students left over, but that would be all.

What you're suggesting isn't a "surgical strike". That would be getting rid of the people involved. Cutting away the cancer, if you will.

I do plan to get rid of the people involved. All of the people involved. Since they cannot all be physically removed, a different approach is needed: in this case, removing what holds them together. In six years they will have long since dispersed, and without that concentration in one place the culture will wither away. That's the point when football can be allowed to return, or perhaps "to be reintroduced" would be a better term.

His martydom is beginning to fade because he's no longer part of the program and most people are looking forward.

Then why is there still so much opposition to removing the statue? Like I said, his martyrdom is fading among the leaders, but not among the people who can pressure them.
2012-07-21 11:24:43 AM  
1 votes:
If any football program deserves the death penalty...it's the one hiding rape to preserve the cash cow. The message has to be sent that looking the other way will never be tolerated again. Remove the statue.
2012-07-21 11:04:31 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: tlchwi02: What is the monetary/penalty worth of a raped child in your system?

Framing the debate around what a child's innocence is "worth" makes rational discussion of the fallout here impossible.


No, it doesn't. If what happened isn't enough to justify the death penalty, it's a fair question to ask how much worse it needs to be before it is. That establishes boundaries in which we can frame our arguments. He's taking the convenient position of not having a position, which is great for him because nobody can criticize him while he sits back and takes pot shots at everyone else. Wait, I think we just found Mitt Romneys fark handle guys!
2012-07-21 10:43:14 AM  
1 votes:

tlchwi02: I had Snu Snu: How many other ways can I say that they deserve some incredibly harsh penalties? I have never once said otherwise, that doesn't mean that i think they should lose the entire program though. Again, do you want revenge or do you want justice and for things to change for the better? If you just want revenge and to cause more negativity than by all means take away their program.

then what sort of penalty do they "deserve"? you say that children getting raped doesn't "justify" having the program suspended. If 9+ children getting raped because of the football program doesn't "justify" the program being suspended, what does? What is the monetary/penalty worth of a raped child in your system?


He's been dancing around that question the whole thread. He knows something wrong happened but doesn't know what to do about it. He might actually be a great candidate for a high level position at PSU.
2012-07-21 09:55:29 AM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: o5iiawah: I find it hard to swallow that a program can get a bowl ban or the death penalty for boosters giving benefits to players but an institutional wide cover up of child rape is met with responses like: "Dont punish the players!"

It's because in this case the players weren't involved with the scandal.

I think something needs to happen to the football program, but they need to be fair to the players who had nothing to do with this. Allow them to transfer to other schools and retain any scholarships they were given. I don't think that's unreasonable.


Everyone agrees with you. Most of the "don't punish the players" people are saying that Penn State football should have no punishment whatsoever because the players didn't know.

Let Penn State football take a time out for 3-5 years and the players can go to any school they want without waiting out a year to play.
2012-07-21 09:28:06 AM  
1 votes:

o5iiawah: I find it hard to swallow that a program can get a bowl ban or the death penalty for boosters giving benefits to players but an institutional wide cover up of child rape is met with responses like: "Dont punish the players!"


It's because in this case the players weren't involved with the scandal.

I think something needs to happen to the football program, but they need to be fair to the players who had nothing to do with this. Allow them to transfer to other schools and retain any scholarships they were given. I don't think that's unreasonable.
2012-07-21 08:37:11 AM  
1 votes:

IlGreven: No Penn State defender directly defended child rape. They might ignore the cognitive dissonance that applies in defending an enabler of someone who rapes children, but they don't directly defend child rape in the same way FAMU defenders defend hazing.


Do you live in PA? Swing a dead cat and you're likely to hit a few apologists who acknowledge that the rape happened but anyone who reported it is a bunch of snitches and that Paterno is squeaky clean. Though I have sat radio in my truck, on occasion, i listen to the local meatball talk radio station in Philly (the one with Mike Misanelli) and callers like that are bound to sprout up whenever they cover the PSU topic.

I find it hard to swallow that a program can get a bowl ban or the death penalty for boosters giving benefits to players but an institutional wide cover up of child rape is met with responses like: "Dont punish the players!"
2012-07-21 08:24:50 AM  
1 votes:

geom_00: I have voiced this before: What would be the economic impact of the small towns around PSU if they would not play football?


Who cares? Any business that builds their business model solely around the affairs of what 18-21 y/o boys do deserves to go out of business it they're too damn stupid to adapt to changing conditions in the world around them. Reality happens. Reality in this case is that a football program endorsed raping kids. That's.....problematic.
2012-07-21 08:16:30 AM  
1 votes:

doglover: Because, you don't take out your emotional rage at a crime on people who didn't do anything wrong. That's what chimpanzees do. That's what feral dogs do.


...no, they don't. Because they don't do this shiat to begin with.
2012-07-21 04:08:46 AM  
1 votes:
You know why you don't see Chi-Chis restaurants anymore? They had some bad lettuce or something. Someone died from eating a salad there. The entire company folded overnight, except for their frozen food brand (which was licensed to another company anyway). I worked in the industry when this went down and it served as a reminder of just how vulnerable businesses are to bad press.

Now, most people would consider what happened at PSU to be far worse than accidentally serving some bad lettuce.

What is a rational reaction to this scandal? The Free Market would say to simply close the entire school permanently because you will never be able to remove the taint of the scandal from the brand. Consider that as you argue for preserving the football program. If ONLY the football program is sacrificed, the school will be far better off than it deserves, considering the magnitude of what the culture of the institution permitted. If it were anything but a school, it would be wiped from the face of the planet without hesitation, its employees and clients scattered to the winds. Everyone who still has a job there or who is permitted to take classes there is very fortunate. What happened there was on par with what went on at that California school where they either fired or transferred everybody who worked there.

I'm well aware of the fanaticism that surrounds college programs. I saw Miles Brandt struggle with the issues of brand loyalty among alumni when he fired Bobby Knight at IU. Then while he was at the NCAA he spoke frequently about how irrational and damaging to society and to individuals that sort of culture can be. Too bad he's dead because I think he'd be the perfect individual to deal with PSU.

Overall, I think that the collegiate atmosphere is very unhealthy, whether one talks in terms of athletics or in terms of academics. On both sides, you have administration gone rabid. One could argue that this is an outlier, but from an anthropological perspective I would argue that it is merely one point on a spectrum of bad outcomes stemming from a poisoned environment. Having dealt with university administrators on multiple campuses, I would suggest that a poisoned environment is typical for these schools. They just express it differently. Typically it doesn't manifest in such a public or offensive way. But I would argue that it deserves a Darwin award and be rendered incapable of transmitting its cultural DNA to future generations.
2012-07-21 02:02:07 AM  
1 votes:
Maybe they are getting rid of the statue and maybe they arent. The only people who really know are in charge of Penn State and they arent saying. Meetings are behind closed doors and kept from prying eyes.


Sounds like a valuable lesson has been learned here by Penn State's top brass and they will never have a culture of closed mouth closed door secretive sneaky smoke filled rooms ever again.
2012-07-21 01:22:33 AM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: If you think turning him into more a martyr is the answer to that problem then I guess that's your opinion but it doesn't make much sense.


I dunno - bin Laden hasn't been treated much like a martyr. Then again, we're talking about a crazy cult, so maybe Paterno will have more staying power.
2012-07-21 12:43:16 AM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: Dude, I have said it dozens of times in this thread. I'm all for some serious shiat happening to them, I don't know what that might entail but it needs to go down.


No, actually, you don't support anything serious happening to them. We're talking about an obsessive institution and culture here; nothing else would be serious from their perspective. Even demolishing the entire school wouldn't be as serious, because it would be a heavy-handed move with a blunt object: something they can rationalize away to distract them from the real problems. A surgical strike at the heart of the problem is not only more appropriate, but, in this particular case, more likely to have the desired effect.

That doesn't mean I think the program should be taken away, even temporarily. The reason for that is that I don't think it would have the intended effect, I think it would only further complicate matters and make the situation even worse by crystallizing an "us vs. them" mentality at PSU and turning Joe into a bigger martyr than he is now.

Joe's martyrdom is fading, as people come to their senses about him. The "us vs. them" mindset you so fear will not materialize in any significant numbers, and even in those who overreact in the way you describe it will die out quickly enough.

Moving forward under different leadership from top to bottom is a much more effective response IMO.

Your opinion fails to take into account that the real failure here came not from the leaders (though they certainly deserve the blame for their decisions), but the culture. Replacing the leaders will do no good if the culture remains to pressure the new leaders in the same ways it pressured the old.

The pressure is on them to show the rest of the world that the pall that is hanging over their program was the doing of a few powerdrunk sociopaths and not something that will define them as a community. As a fan of humanity I really hope they do so.

They've already failed that test. The continued prevalence of Paterno-apologists proves it. Thus, sterner measures are required. They defend the man because football, so it's time to take that away from them.
2012-07-21 12:38:46 AM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: The pressure is on them to show the rest of the world that the pall that is hanging over their program was the doing of a few powerdrunk sociopaths and not something that will define them as a community. As a fan of humanity I really hope they do so.


If history is any guide at all, organizations as corrupt as PSU football won't change on their own - they HAVE to be forced to clean up their act.
2012-07-21 12:29:25 AM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: AliceBToklasLives: I had Snu Snu: bloodlust

Suggesting that maybe the football team should spend some time in the penalty box is "bloodlust"?

/it's just football
//duh

What does it accomplish? How does it make anything any better?


The football coach isn't treated like a God (who is paid far more than the university's president) and given absurd amounts of power, the kind of power that allowed this horror to be cover up.

Football at schools like Penn State is like a cult, and there is abundant evidence that that cult extends to the "community." And, yes, I'll extend that argument to USC, Miami, and other corrupt programs.

It is a lesson for the community - there's more to life than football, and the players and coaches are but mere mortal - and no blood is spilt (spilled?) in the process.
2012-07-21 12:29:22 AM  
1 votes:
I'm done arguing with people who think football programs should be able to run underground child rape rooms in their locker rooms and play dumb when they get caught. Night all.
2012-07-21 12:28:04 AM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: Weaver95: yup. all of 'em. they all knew something was wrong. They didn't ask questions tho. everyone just sat down, STFU and did what Paterno told them to do. He ran the show, he was the Big Boss....anyone who said different, paid a price for it. So yeah, they all knew something bad was going on and they didn't bother trying to find out what was going on.

[faqsmedia.ign.com image 363x310]

Prove to me that they "ALL" knew something was going on. Just step back and let the emotion subside and think critically for a moment. I know it's hard because of how awful these crimes were but do you just want punishment or do you want things to actually change?


y'know... you might find a review of the Nuremberg trials worth some time and effort. the 'I didn't know' defense didn't work very well for those folks, I don't think it's gonna fly for the PSU football program either.
2012-07-21 12:19:26 AM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: Weaver95: doglover: Moral of the story: The mob prefers innocent blood.

I find this attitude puzzling. NOBODY in the PSU football program is 'innocent'. they all looked the other way and/or pretended nothing was wrong with the organization.

Who is this "all"? The entire program knew what was going on and helped cover it up? Every single person? That's almost as bad as when all the Muslims attacked us on 9/11. amirite? Extremes are fun!


yup. all of 'em. they all knew something was wrong. They didn't ask questions tho. everyone just sat down, STFU and did what Paterno told them to do. He ran the show, he was the Big Boss....anyone who said different, paid a price for it. So yeah, they all knew something bad was going on and they didn't bother trying to find out what was going on.

shut down the football program, melt that statue down for scrap metal and scrub every last painting of Paterno off university walls.
2012-07-21 12:14:08 AM  
1 votes:

doglover: Moral of the story: The mob prefers innocent blood.


I find this attitude puzzling. NOBODY in the PSU football program is 'innocent'. they all looked the other way and/or pretended nothing was wrong with the organization.
2012-07-21 12:11:21 AM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: bloodlust


Suggesting that maybe the football team should spend some time in the penalty box is "bloodlust"?

/it's just football
//duh
2012-07-21 12:08:56 AM  
1 votes:

Carousel Beast: Specific people committed specific crimes, and they need to be dealt with specifically. What you propose, sir or madam, is neither rational nor just.


It's amazing how the concept of institutional power can escape even seemingly otherwise intelligent people.
2012-07-20 11:45:58 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: birchman: So why are you OK with the B1G kicking them out, but not with the NCAA not allowing them to play for a couple years? If it has nothing to do with football, why is one OK and not the other?

Because the two are totally different? The B1G isn't telling them that they can't play football, just that they have to find another conference or go back to being independent. They aren't telling them to take a few years off. That's like saying what's the difference between getting fired and going to jail. The two aren't really on the same level at all.

What would be the B1G's reason for kicking them out?

Are you trolling, stupid, or just not paying attention? There is a HUGE difference between being kicked out of a conference and being told you can't play football for a few seasons. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? I NEVER said that they shouldn't be punished. I've already said I don't have all the answers (the horror!) However, just because they deserve some very serious punishment doesn't mean they deserve the death penalty. The options aren't Death Penalty or nothing. It's a hard concept but just try to keep up. This topic might be a little over your head champ.

Either way I'm done with you because you're either intentionally being ignorant or aren't capable of having a real debate. Have a nice evening.


I'm just worried because Penn State football has a well-documented long-term history of facilitating and paying bonuses for child rape. Why not make them take a time out until people can be sure they no longer have such policies?
2012-07-20 11:39:59 PM  
1 votes:

mikaloyd: I had Snu Snu: They were independent for years, it would hurt them to go back but wouldn't kill them. I'm not saying I have all the answers but I really truly believe the death penalty to be counterproductive.

You think the death penalty would cause even more kids to get raped at Penn State with longer more involved instituionalizes coverups to protect the football program? Or are you talking about some other less important goal which the death penalty might not help?


Seriously. I had Snu Snu seems to care more about Penn State football than preventing the child rape the program facilitated and paid for in cash.

Isn't this the kind of thinking that got Penn State where it is today? This is why the death penalty is a good idea. Let's take the focus off of football and put it onto turning young people into good men and women and scholars.
2012-07-20 11:32:24 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: They were independent for years, it would hurt them to go back but wouldn't kill them. I'm not saying I have all the answers but I really truly believe the death penalty to be counterproductive. I do know that a good start would be to take down the damn statue and moving forward into a Paterno-less era of Penn State Football. They've already replaced the whole staff and everybody that had any knowledge (or should have had knowledge) of what was going on. I think the fact that Joe lost his job over this is enough to deter most anybody from trying to pull anything like this again because if can bring down somebody like JoePa than what chance does anybody else have of surviving a scandal like this?


The fact that it could bring down the entire program and not just themselves might make them think twice. Yes it is making an example of them, call it bloodlust or whatever you want, I have no dog in this race either. But I really think this is a very important decision for the NCAA to make, it's going to set a very significant precedent whichever way they go.

That said, they're not the only ones that will be deciding their fate. The B1G, the Department of Education, the State of PA, and the civil courts will all have their own say as well. I don't like their chances regardless.
2012-07-20 11:16:06 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: Also, just because I agree that it was awful doesn't mean that I think the entire program should be killed. That's the easy way out and doesn't really solve any problems.

I disagree. It sends a strong message to other programs that they aren't invincible and better not tolerate this sort of thing. It definitely serves a purpose. It also sends a very strong message by not killing the program that they can pretty much get away with murder as long as they have a fall guy. Quit with the sympathy for their program, they don't deserve it.

Don't we have the death penalty in this country to serve as a deterrent to murdering other people? How is that working out for us? It's still possible to move forward in a healthy and positive way without scrapping the program, even temporarily. It's not so much sympathy as it is common sense. Taking a few years off accomplishes absolutely nothing but further ties JoePa and that program together instead of moving forward under the leadership of somebody totally new to the program and progressing instead of dwelling on what happened in the past by people who aren't around any more.

I'm not saying the program should get off totally free either. I want to clarify that. I want them kicked out of the B1G immediately and should be under the strictest supervision ever devised by man but to put the program on the shelf will only serve to make things much much worse and harder to move forward.


For the record, I'm pretty sure kicking them out of the B1G would be just as bad or worse than the death penalty. Here's my issue - any punishment short of suspending the program is really a slap on the wrist in the grand scheme of things. The program gets to continue on without any real consequences for the gross loss of control and illegal activities they allowed to happen. I mean I guess they could suspend all their scholarships for a few years or something like that, but again that has pretty much the same impact as the death penalty anyway. Your death penalty for murder I don't think is a fair comparison since there are still very harsh punishments (life in prison) that deter it just as much. I honestly don't think it deters murder very much because anyone sick enough to do it doesn't care about the ramifications anyway.

Having an NCAA football program is not a right, it's a privilege. It's a privilege allowed to programs that maintain certain standards set by the NCAA, which include GPA minimums, practice time limits, recruiting standards, and no child rape in the locker room.
2012-07-20 10:52:50 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: PowerSlacker: I had Snu Snu: Sandusky hasn't been there for 13 years now, so how was this about football? This was more about Joe covering for a friend.

Sandusky was still a guest of the program and used the football facilities as a location for raping children.

Try again.

So again, how did this coverup benefit the team? He had no input towards the team and wasn't a part of recruiting, game planning, practice, etc.


Ha ha. Well, I am an Ohio State alum, but I won't hold it against you. =) I will try to say this very clearly. Big-time recruits may have been scared of coming to Penn State if they knew there was a child rapist lurking about. Fans and people around the country may have been reluctant to support Penn State if they knew that Penn State had child rape in their program. That's why Pedoterno concealed the serial child rape. Pedoterno was very selfish and successful in making sure that no one found out about the child rape until he died.
2012-07-20 10:52:41 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: Also, just because I agree that it was awful doesn't mean that I think the entire program should be killed. That's the easy way out and doesn't really solve any problems.


I disagree. It sends a strong message to other programs that they aren't invincible and better not tolerate this sort of thing. It definitely serves a purpose. It also sends a very strong message by not killing the program that they can pretty much get away with murder as long as they have a fall guy. Quit with the sympathy for their program, they don't deserve it.
2012-07-20 10:50:24 PM  
1 votes:

birchman: I lost my sympathy for them when I found out they were harassing the victims to the point of them having to go into protective custody. Was it everyone? No. Sometimes life isn't fair. I know several people who lost their livelihoods because of some asshole bankers on Wall Street a few years ago. shiat happens. If the NCAA doesn't think this is deserving of a program suspension I'd be curious what they think IS. Maybe they should have had Sandusky bring a boy out and rape him on the 50-yard line during a halftime show in front of everyone. Would that have been enough? Yes, that was really disturbing what I just typed. I want you to think about it again and then continue to downplay what they were covering up. How much child rape is enough for a program suspension? That's the only question I want you to answer.


How about bringing "dates" with him on the road when he was invited to games as a guest?
2012-07-20 10:47:05 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: PowerSlacker: Deflect all you want, but the coverup was clearly done for football reasons.

That's true to an extent but most of it was because Joe was trying to cover up for his friend and the rest of them just went along with Joe. If it was just about football then the second that Sandusky was out the door when he retired Joe would have gone to the NCAA.

lol wut?

Sandusky hasn't been there for 13 years now, so how was this about football? This was more about Joe covering for a friend.


Once you START covering it up, the damage is pretty much done at that point, you're an accessory to covering up a crime and you're going to jail. How stupid are you? Never mind, you are defending child rape enablers, I already know the answer.
2012-07-20 10:45:47 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: Magorn: The rank and file partner at Arthur Anderson was an honest, hard-working accountant who thought they had a job for life and never did anything wrong. But people at the top of Arthur Andersen did some VERY wrong things and allowed the Enron scandal to happen. The company DESERVED the "death penalty" it got, even if that meant that thousands of "innocent" workers were sudden on the street with no jobs

And that seems right to you? You don't have even the slightest problem with that many people totally losing their livelihood? Just to send a message? Jesus Farking Christ, how do you live with yourself? I really hope this is a troll, or at least some ITG trying to sound hard because nobody can be that callous and uncaring can they?


I lost my sympathy for them when I found out they were harassing the victims to the point of them having to go into protective custody. Was it everyone? No. Sometimes life isn't fair. I know several people who lost their livelihoods because of some asshole bankers on Wall Street a few years ago. shiat happens. If the NCAA doesn't think this is deserving of a program suspension I'd be curious what they think IS. Maybe they should have had Sandusky bring a boy out and rape him on the 50-yard line during a halftime show in front of everyone. Would that have been enough? Yes, that was really disturbing what I just typed. I want you to think about it again and then continue to downplay what they were covering up. How much child rape is enough for a program suspension? That's the only question I want you to answer.
2012-07-20 10:11:25 PM  
1 votes:

YouWinAgainGravity: Another such choice or view would be, the NCAA could and probably should step in in regards to the findings that Paterno interfered in player discipline. I can see the argument that the NCAA might have jurisdiction over the cover-up since Sandusky was a football coach, though several legal experts have said it's questionable whether they do or not. If they did though, Penn State wouldn't really fall under the "repeat offender" status that is required for the 'death penalty' under their bylaws. I'm all for the civil lawsuits against the university and individuals involved, and criminal charges.


You know I know how you haven't read NCAA Bylaw 19.5.2.2?

Don't believe me though, read from an actual sports law expert who says Penn State could be given the death penalty.

As I see it, the NCAA has three choices:
1. No punishment whatsoever.
2. USC type of punishment.
3. Death penalty.

Given the magnitude of the scandal, #3 is the logical choice to me. #1 makes the NCAA a national laughingstock. #2 is defensible, but it still sends the message that the NCAA doesn't have control of its member institutions.

It's tough though, as no matter what they choose the NCAA will get ripped for their decision. The death penalty hasn't been dropped in football in over two decades because it is such a severe penalty.
2012-07-20 09:47:42 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: groppet: and salt the earth

Then make sure that the people that salted the earth suffer as well, and then repeat with the people that made the people suffer for salting the earth.


Here; take this. It will help you carry more water for a child rapist and the disgusting vermin who facilitated the child rape and made sure he got a cash bonus. Let me know if you need another to carry the water for the folks who rioted when people tried to point out that Pedoterno facilitated child rape.

icons.iconarchive.com

///Oh, random question: How come Japan doesn't have a navy?
2012-07-20 08:56:11 PM  
1 votes:

Millennium: Only if the death penalty is too short. That's why I recommended six years: give them time to cool down, and time for the students under whom the death penalty began time to graduate and get out of Dodge.


And that whole six years the legend of "The NCAA vs. JoePa" will fester and grow and give them even more of a victim mentality.

I don't know, and I don't care. That's Penn State's problem.

So you're admitting you don't have any idea how to actually rectify this problem and just want somebody's head on a platter to make you feel better? Noted.

Take away the alcoholic's booze: give football several years of a break. Then, and only then, is this place going to be able to build a culture where football doesn't have the inordinate amount of power and esteem that it currently does.

Yeah, that's not going to happen. Taking away the football program be like flipping a switch and changing the culture. It will elevate JoePa to even more of a martyr. Our nations recent escapades into the Middle East should go to show you just how hard it is to change "culture".

...which would have the same de facto effects on the football program. Why does it matter to you so much if the NCAA does it, as opposed to the B1G or the state of Pennsylvania?

Removing them from the B1G will do no such thing. They will lose some of the BTN money but they were independent for years and did just fine, maybe even better than they've done in the B1G. As far as funding from the state, that would probably kill the entire university, let alone the football program. While it's possible that it could happen I really don't think it will. I don't think any remotely rational person wants the ENTIRE university to be shut down.

Are you actually saying this is "a living nightmare" for you? If so, then you are grossly overreacting, not that we didn't already know this. Get a grip, and get a life.

Maybe I chose my words poorly but I was attempting to make a point. This is a very bad situation for all involved. Dissolving the football program would serve to do nothing but complicate and enflame matters even further. As I've repeatedly said, I have no ties whatsoever to PSU. I'm a Michigan alum and fan so whatever happens to Penn State won't effect me in the slightest. I just know something that makes no sense when I see it. And I know a lynch mob out for blood when I see that too. This is only about revenge at this point for the sake of making ourselves feel better and like we did something. Killing the program might make us feel good in the short term but what long term benefit will it have? The culture was centered around a single man who was elevated to near god-like status, he's dead now. Everybody remotely involved with the coverup has been fired and will be prosecuted. Killing the program accomplishes absolutely nothing except making a bad situation even worse for our own selfish reasons.
2012-07-20 07:48:09 PM  
1 votes:

doglover: Moral of the story: The mob prefers innocent blood.


No, the mob thinks the biggest scandal in collegiate sports history deserves the biggest punishment in college sports history.

Justice and all that.
2012-07-20 07:05:55 PM  
1 votes:
http://m.static.newsvine.com/servista/imagesizer?file=robtornoe66AE1F2 4-31C3-59AF-B2BB-399F1B9381E8.jpg&width=600

"T minus 72 hours" - Penn State president Rodney Erickson
2012-07-20 06:57:21 PM  
1 votes:
2012-07-20 06:25:56 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: Suicide is bad, 'mmkay?


No school that can't survive a few years without football deserves to survive at all. But that's the part you don't seem to get: Penn State would survive. It wouldn't even be hurt all that much. Your idea that this somehow punishes anyone except for overzealous football fans is absurd on its face.

We're not out for blood: we don't believe there will be blood. Happy Valley will indeed learn just how important Penn State football really was, but that lesson will be neither painful nor devastating: they'll adapt, and quickly.
2012-07-20 06:25:36 PM  
1 votes:
It's clear that people do not understand their moral obligations when it comes to child rape. Perhaps hitting them where it hurts will get them to understand the right thing to do, even if they don't understand WHY it's the right thing to do.

Society has a right to protect itself from predators and insist everyone take proactive measures to defend our most vulnerable members.
2012-07-20 06:18:43 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: That just confirms you're not interested in justice and simply interested in bloodlust against Penn State.


Last I checked, you didn't seem to have a problem with Penn State getting its funding pulled or the B1G kicking it out, both of which would have the same de facto effects as the death penalty plus effects much more far-reaching (unlike the death penalty, removal of funding actually has a chance of destroying the college). I ask you what I asked Snu Snu: why are you OK with the state or the B1G doling out these far worse punishments, but so opposed to the NCAA doing something far more tailored to the crime and far less likely to have effects beyond football?

Oh, wait, I forgot: because football. You are a perfect example of why the death penalty needs to happen.
2012-07-20 06:12:57 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: Suicide is bad, 'mmkay?


Should've thought of that before giving Saint Joe and his pal Sandusky the run of the place.
2012-07-20 06:12:01 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: That just confirms you're not interested in justice and simply interested in bloodlust against Penn State.


I'm sorry, I don't take lectures from defenders of child rape enablers.
2012-07-20 06:10:17 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: So sanity has a chance to prevail


And Penn State does the right thing by dropping a hammer on the football program and telling the alumni and boosters that future Saint Joes will not be tolerated.
2012-07-20 06:08:37 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: Like Sandusky. 'Remove his crimes from history' you said yourself. His worst crime was getting caught and shaming Great Leader Saint Joe.


Nope, I was right the first time.
2012-07-20 05:57:56 PM  
1 votes:
to be fair joepa did try to help those he perceived as being victimized.

blogs.thetimes-tribune.com
2012-07-20 05:33:42 PM  
1 votes:

birchman: Considering that the first victim had to be put into protective custody because of the harassment he was getting from the civillian community, that did it for me. This wasn't just a few guys in PSU, this was a culture, a cult. Maybe not a criminally liable one, but a culture that contributed to this cover-up happening. And this sort of culture exists elsewhere, where football is EVERYTHING, meaning it's very plausible it could happen again unless fear of complete loss is created.

I'm sorry if there is going to be collateral damage here, but the men involved knew there would be if they were caught, and the NCAA has to make an example of them in my opinion.


THIS
2012-07-20 05:31:45 PM  
1 votes:

born_yesterday: You mean they haven't talked to sethstorm?


I think the extent of their words with him have been 'buy lots of Kleenex'. I can't see either the NCAA or the B1G wanting to deal with the shiatstorm a 2012 PSU football season would bring. Right now they're trying to tell the university this in no uncertain terms.
2012-07-20 05:29:38 PM  
1 votes:

YouWinAgainGravity: birchman: I more or less felt the same way until I read this. Nuke it.

I understand why people are mad and where the 'nuke it from orbit' reactions are coming from. It's easy to get caught up in the emotions over everything that happened. But after cooling off and reading some of the thoughts from people who say "let's not destroy them just yet" (not talking about true JoePa defenders), I'm on the side of the constructive punishment approach.


Considering that the first victim had to be put into protective custody because of the harassment he was getting from the civillian community, that did it for me. This wasn't just a few guys in PSU, this was a culture, a cult. Maybe not a criminally liable one, but a culture that contributed to this cover-up happening. And this sort of culture exists elsewhere, where football is EVERYTHING, meaning it's very plausible it could happen again unless fear of complete loss is created.

I'm sorry if there is going to be collateral damage here, but the men involved knew there would be if they were caught, and the NCAA has to make an example of them in my opinion.
2012-07-20 05:26:32 PM  
1 votes:
Mark Emmert is saying the death penalty 'isn't off the table'.

Jim Delaney is openly talking about kicking Penn State out of the B1G.

The former chairman of the PSU board of trustees fully resigned from the board, this the same day E$PN reported that the board had voted to remove the statue. Which they also reportedly haven't, instead punting that decision to the university president. In other words, expect Elian Gonzales II: Paterno Boogaloo to arrive sometime this weekend.

I think the words I am looking for are 'the avalanche has started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote.'
2012-07-20 05:26:17 PM  
1 votes:

downstairs: gimmegimme: Was the gentleman who was wearing the pedobear costume to the bowl game acting in an obscene manner or disrupting the game or committing any other offense for which he SHOULD have been ejected by simply wearing the costume? (We both seem like reasonable folks. If a pedo bear guy ran on the field, then fine--boot him out. If pedo bear throws fireworks on the field--boot him out.)

Well, let me start out and say I think its lame to kick him out. I am against such an action. Its a gutless action to not be able to face criticism... whether its a front row heckler giving it to Lebron James for not being able to perform for more than 3 quarters, or whether its a snarky costume pointing out that Penn State covered up for pedos.

I'm just saying its within their rights to kick him out.


Well, I think we have reached something of an agreement. I am leaning slightly against him being kicked out, but I see your point. And I am happy you agree that it's lame and gutless to kick out such a person.
2012-07-20 05:23:03 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: gimmegimme: What is your line of reasoning? And please answer the question I asked you before with all of the images. Which of those disruptive fans should have been ejected. Including some fans who actually touched a player.

The problem is that you forgot the context in all of them.


Hmmm...under what circumstances are you allowed to restrain a player? And why isn't that worse than wearing a pedo bear costume?

What about the ladies with actual profanity written on their sweet, sweet tummies? (I got dibs on the one on the right, by the way.) Why shouldn't they have been ejected? They subjected those around them--possibly kids!!!--to profanity. How is using profanity not as bad by the simple wearing of a pedo bear costume?
2012-07-20 05:14:14 PM  
1 votes:

YouWinAgainGravity: Shutting down the football program really accomplishes nothing at this point. I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Nick Saban's idea, have the football program instead donate its profits to charities and organizations that help kids for the next few years. The people who were involved in the coverup are gone and hopefully the legal system takes care of all of them. Instead of some thermonuclear approach that does cause punish a lot of people that weren't involved, find a constructive way to punish the football program.


I more or less felt the same way until I read this. Nuke it.
2012-07-20 05:11:44 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: birchman: If there is a hell, I sleep better at night knowing he's there.

Except he isn't.


Sethstorm, can you please answer the question I posed with all of the examples of fan behavior?

From the Penn State bowl game just for fun:
img.tapatalk.com

ohellnawlblog.com
2012-07-20 05:11:04 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: birchman: If there is a hell, I sleep better at night knowing he's there.

Except he isn't.


I'd be upset too if I found out my idol was a child-rape enabler. It's OK, time will heal your wounds. In the meantime, try not to make such a huge ass out of yourself by defending what he did.
2012-07-20 05:07:14 PM  
1 votes:

downstairs: gimmegimme: sethstorm: gimmegimme: sethstorm: you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.

Seriously. Freedom of speech sucks.

Except that it doesn't apply in that venue.

Untrue. It's a matter of degrees. It's extremely subjective.

Link

No. Just because something is "publically funded" (and schools are only partially)... they're still private entities. And they can make whatever rules they want as to how people act in them.


Link
2012-07-20 05:04:32 PM  
1 votes:

birchman: Oh look, another PSU thread, more child-rape apologists. You're going where Jo-Pa already is.


Isn't it lamentable that JoePa will never know what he and Penn State football currently stand for? It's a pity there's no hell for him to go to. I suppose the lesson is that you can be the worst person in the world, so long as no one finds out until you are almost dead.
2012-07-20 05:02:38 PM  
1 votes:
Oh look, another PSU thread, more child-rape apologists. You're going where Jo-Pa already is.
2012-07-20 05:01:09 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: They will not listen to reason, nor will any amount of blood be enough to satiate their hunger.


Hardly. Nothing the defenders of Penn State propose addresses the root cause of the tragedy, but it does make clear their devotion to football above all else. The institution, and by that I mean the larger institution that is Happy Valley, because the residents and police forces were complicit, placed so much emphasis on the value of the football program that basic human and societal values were subordinated to it. And in this single case that subordination continued for over a decade. (I have no doubt, and you should have none either, that this was perhaps the worst but most assuredly not the only instance of turning a blind eye to criminal behavior that could embarrass the program.) That's a gross loss of perspective. Loss of bowl games and scholarships are hardly likely to correct what has been going on for years and years.
2012-07-20 04:58:52 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: gimmegimme: I agree. Jim Tressel and Terrelle Pryor are gone. Why does Ohio State have the bowl ban? W is no longer President...why are some Iraqis still mad at us?

Did you even read what I said? I didn't say they should get off the hook without anything happening. I just don't see how taking away the football team will do anything except make the situation worse. Do you see how worked up some people are getting over a stupid statue of somebody directly involved in the coverup? How do you think those people would act if you took away the entire program? The only thing about the culture that would change is much more anger and more of an "us vs. them" mentality with more secrets. It may feel good to get revenge on the "bad guys" but it does nothing to change the culture or to improve the situation in the slightest. Again, if all you want is blood then just admit it but don't act like this is anything but that.


I'm sorry, but I don't think that the punishment should be adjusted to accommodate the possible negative or violent? reaction of others.
2012-07-20 04:57:47 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: I just don't see how taking away the football team will do anything except make the situation worse.


It makes the situation better because it shows that the NCAA will control sports programs when the colleges themselves choose not to do so.
2012-07-20 04:57:46 PM  
1 votes:
sethstorm:

cache.daylife.com

cdn.jockular.com

i.usatoday.net

media.pennlive.com

www.davidbergman.net

img.fannation.com

4.bp.blogspot.com

Which of these fans are being disruptive and should be escorted out of the facility and which are not?
2012-07-20 04:56:54 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: This situation already sucks and is a living nightmare for everybody involved, don't make it worse.


and what about the real victims (you know, the children who got raped?) should penn state continue to have a shrine to the man who helped cover up the viscious, violent attacks on them? I think that the real victims here are the ones who were abused- not the towns people who ostrasized and sent death threats to the first one to come forward, and not the university officials who got wealthy off of the cover up.
2012-07-20 04:56:22 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: They will not listen to reason, nor will any amount of blood be enough to satiate their hunger.


Yeah, but I'm talking about commemorating Joe Paterno's "greatness" with a statue. His "greatness" has been invalidated, no matter how many wins he had. We shouldn't look up to people that hide child rapists.

We shouldn't look up to people that hide child rapists.

We shouldn't look up to people that hide child rapists.

The statue is a reminder that we still look up to JoePa... how can we still do that? I'm not talking about the Death Penalty or anything else... I'm talking about the men at the center of this coverup.
2012-07-20 04:54:29 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: I had Snu Snu: Do you really think that just by removing the football program it will make everything magically better? Not a chance in hell buddy, it will come back even bigger and with more of an "us vs. them" mentality amongst the fanbase. How are you planning to "rebuild" the entire program? They've already changed all the coaches with people that had no previous ties to the program and got rid of the AD. What else can they realistically do? This is becoming a witch hunt and people are just out for blood at this point.

SO MUCH FARKING THIS.

They will not listen to reason, nor will any amount of blood be enough to satiate their hunger.


Read this and then get back to us.
2012-07-20 04:50:31 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: gimmegimme:

Security would be used to eject them from the arena. They would be free to not disrupt the game.



factoryconnection: Removing the statue is "unjust?" Greatness is a measure achieved over a lifetime

Then replace the words of "integrity..." with the record of the team. However, it would not be enough for people rabid enough to call for PSU to be nuked from orbit..


How would a person disrupt the game if he's sitting in the stands in a Pedo Bear costume shouting "Pedd State!"? How does that disrupt the game any more or less than the people who hold those giant cardboard heads and scream their heads off? Or the student sections who try to screw with the guy shooting a foul shot?
2012-07-20 04:49:41 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: What are you talking about? First of all, I have no power to punish the truly guilty. Second, fine. Let's investigate Corbett and put him in jail, too. When did I say that I wanted the punishment to end after the death penalty and the statue being removed forever?

By punishing the students and business in the town for a crime they did not commit you are wronging them. The entire town should not suffer for the crimes of a few of it's citizens.


The entire town created and fostered the cult of personality that incubated Sandusky.
2012-07-20 04:49:09 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: Do you really think that just by removing the football program it will make everything magically better? .


not at first...but it's the only way to be sure you've changed the culture that allowed over a decade of serial rape to go unreported. sure, PSU fired a few scapegoats and is pretending to have reformed...but they covered up over a decade of rape. this is an organization that's GOOD at coverups, good at lying to people. the ONLY way to make sure you've changed things is to dismantle the ENTIRE organization and rebuild it from scratch.
2012-07-20 04:48:58 PM  
1 votes:

I had Snu Snu: Weaver95: I had Snu Snu: I really don't understand what cancelling the football program will accomplish.

it's the only way to make sure that PSU football's amoral culture of 'protect the football program at all costs' goes away. look - when we took over Japan at the end of WWII, we tore down their entire government and rebuilt it from the ground up. why? because we wanted to make sure that we wouldn't have to come back and bomb the crap outta them 20 years later. same thing with Penn State - we need to tear down their entire football program and rebuild it over the next 5-8 years so that we know beyond any possibility of doubt that we've changed their entire internal culture.

Do you really think that just by removing the football program it will make everything magically better? Not a chance in hell buddy, it will come back even bigger and with more of an "us vs. them" mentality amongst the fanbase. How are you planning to "rebuild" the entire program? They've already changed all the coaches with people that had no previous ties to the program and got rid of the AD. What else can they realistically do? This is becoming a witch hunt and people are just out for blood at this point. If all you want is revenge that's fine, it's understandable, it's human nature. But be honest about it. Cancelling the football program will make this whole situation 10x worse in the long run and will only serve to turn JoePa and the rest of the previous administration into martyrs. They will go to even further lengths to keep everything in house, lest they get shut down again. It just doesn't make any sense to do so. The B1G should, and probably will, revoke their membership. The State of Pennsylvania should, and might, pull funding from the school for how everything was handled. This situation already sucks and is a living nightmare for everybody involved, don't make it worse.


I agree. Jim Tressel and Terrelle Pryor are gone. Why does Ohio State have the bowl ban? W is no longer President...why are some Iraqis still mad at us?
2012-07-20 04:47:17 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: sethstorm: factoryconnection: My dog is named "Paterno" and I'm saying it is time to dissociate my alma mater with someone that covered up for a serial child rapist

Sandusky was convicted, Paterno apologized for merely being third-party(at best), and a whole lot of people got fired to satisfy a rabid and unsatisfiable urge for vengeance.

You're asking for the very same thing that Stalin has asked for in the past - erasing history to fit your desire.

no, we're saying that there is more than sufficient evidence to show that the corruption within PSU football runs deep. corruption like that is difficult to root out without extreme measures....shut down PSU football, and rebuild the ENTIRE program from scratch.


Agreed. There were PLENTY of Penn State folks who thought that the entire situation had come to light back in November. Look how much more we know now.
2012-07-20 04:42:45 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: Yet you ask for something that is not justice, which has already been carried out multiple times over.


Removing the statue is "unjust?" Greatness is a measure achieved over a lifetime... and 14 years of covering up for a child molester is the opposite of that. The school needs to move on. How do you think the victims after the kid in '98 or at least '02 would feel every time they saw that statue, knowing that if Joe had just done something right, they'd have never been molested?
2012-07-20 04:42:02 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: gimmegimme: sethstorm: you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.

Seriously. Freedom of speech sucks.

Except that it doesn't apply in that venue.


Untrue. It's a matter of degrees. It's extremely subjective.

Link
2012-07-20 04:39:08 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Your questions are silly. I am very sorry that there will be some unintentional unpleasantness for the many folks in the Penn State community who had nothing to do with the serial child rape. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is. You and I are not allowed to buy ten packs of Sudafed at once because of crazy meth people. Too bad; shiat happens. I'm a Buckeye fan who was VERY angry with Terrelle Pryor and Jim Tressel and didn't spend months denying all of the shady stuff went down. Am I enduring some "pain" right now because of the actions of the few? Sure. Too bad. Shiat happens.

The punishment for the crimes of Jim Tressel are being felt by those who did not commit the crimes. True justice was not done. All that was done to OSU, and what you are promoting for PSU, is to lay false blame and punishment on those who did nothing wrong. Two wrongs do not make a right.


Look at what you have pee hands said. That guy who shot up the theater is going to jail for a very long time. This is going to cause a great deal of pain to many innocents. His mother, his friends and family...they did nothing to bring this pain upon themselves. Why should we cause more pain? Let's just let the guy go, right?

//I'm guessing you have a strange concept of the meaning of "justice"
2012-07-20 04:38:47 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: The Freeh report says nothing not already known. It is merely an attempt to justify any subsequent historical revisionism.


I read the grand jury report, and there was nothing in it that clearly implicated JoePa as part of the coverup. The Freeh report, however, did.

My dog is named "Paterno" and I'm saying it is time to dissociate my alma mater with someone that covered up for a serial child rapist, no matter how much good he did for the school. It breaks my heart but he could have at least NOT vouched for Sandusky. These guys are Catholics and this was all happening during the peak of the Church's sex abuse scandal... the cat was out of the bag that "coverup" was the WRONG CHOICE, that predators won't stop, and that victims deserve protection.

But at least Spanier will live to see the inside of a courtroom and answer for all this.
2012-07-20 04:38:40 PM  
1 votes:
67.18.219.83
2012-07-20 04:37:54 PM  
1 votes:

Rapmaster2000: Leave it to educate your students on what happens when an organization turns a manager into a god.


I became a god once.
2012-07-20 04:37:00 PM  
1 votes:

gimmegimme: sethstorm: you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.

Seriously. Freedom of speech sucks.


The People's Temple of Saint Joe will broach no criticism of their religion.
2012-07-20 04:36:57 PM  
1 votes:
Leave it to educate your students on what happens when an organization turns a manager into a god.
2012-07-20 04:36:01 PM  
1 votes:

scottydoesntknow: Follow-up: Dumbass students form human wall between bulldozer and statue.

And they don't deserve the hero tag, they deserve the obvious tag, since it's obvious it needed to come down. The hero tag would've been warranted had they performed these actions the second they were brough to attention.


That's an outsider's perspective, though. To those of us outside the cult of Paterno, this stuff is obvious. But we're talking about people who were in the thick of it all, raised or inculcated into this form of hero-worship. They face perhaps worse than even the average cult member, because the risk of mutiny and revolt is very real here. In that kind of context, this is a decision that would indeed have been very difficult to make. In the face of enormous pressure to leave the statue up, there are people fighting to do the right thing. To my mind, that is heroic, in its own way.

At the very least, it should be strongly encouraged. Let the tag stand, and the statue fall.
2012-07-20 04:32:35 PM  
1 votes:

sethstorm: you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.


Seriously. Freedom of speech sucks.
2012-07-20 04:29:29 PM  
1 votes:

Marisyana: Cancer didn't kill Joe Paterno. Getting fired did. When it first happened I said to my husband "he'll be dead in six months." Only took two. If only he could see that statue coming down so he could croak all over again. Or get busted for perjury. Saint JoePa in cuffs would have been an amazing sight.


That would have been something... this whole thing has saddened me to see one of my role models fall from grace but I would have appreciated seeing it play out legally like you say. There are a whole lot of allegations beyond the sex abuse and coverup... money and collusion and whatnot... that would have come to light had Paterno been called to task for the differences in the grand jury and Freeh reports. These are questions that won't really be definitively answered.

Honestly, if people are still carrying a torch for Joe, and assuming they know what the Freeh report said about his role in the coverup... I'm baffled. At the very least, it is just football and the guy's dead. He's not getting insulted, because he's dead. On a more detailed level, what we supposedly loved about JoePa is that he succeeded while doing everything by the book... with integrity.

But now we know that for all his ethical bluster about student athletes and class attendance, his morals were actually quite flexible in most shameful ways. For that, the statue should come down... it is a victory statue and we shouldn't be commemorating the victory of someone that, in his own words "should have done more."

God damn right he should have done more.
2012-07-20 04:28:09 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: In my opinion anyone that thinks tearing down a statue will solve anything is as guilty as the Board of Trustees.


Tearing down the statue does not, in and of itself, solve anything. It is, however, an absolutely vital step. If the football-centric culture that made this cover-up possible is to be eradicated -as it must- then as part of that, its idols must be destroyed. That's not enough by itself -the drug itself must also be taken away at least for a time, thus calls for the NCAA death penalty- but these things complement one another, and neither will work without the other.
2012-07-20 04:21:16 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: As far as I understand it, that is the case.

Will you also admit that the canceling of the football program would most directly affect the students on the football team?


Why didn't you answer the question I posed after answering yours?
2012-07-20 04:18:46 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Your thought is less coherent than that interview Sandusky gave to Bob Costas.

Will you admit that the students make up the football team? And that the current students had no direct knowledge of the rapes?


As far as I understand it, that is the case. Will you admit that countless people on the planet were innocent when your God killed them all?
2012-07-20 04:16:10 PM  
1 votes:

gimmegimme: Soooo....when Yahweh leveled Sodom and Gomorrah, lots of innocent people died. When Yahweh flooded the Earth and killed everyone but Noah's family, lots of innocent people died. Which is it? Do you agree with your deity that some punishment of the innocent is a necessity or do you believe that your deity is a monster for punishing so many innocents?


You should take your show on the road, door to door.
2012-07-20 04:15:04 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Soooo....when Yahweh leveled Sodom and Gomorrah, lots of innocent people died. When Yahweh flooded the Earth and killed everyone but Noah's family, lots of innocent people died. Which is it? Do you agree with your deity that some punishment of the innocent is a necessity or do you believe that your deity is a monster for punishing so many innocents?

There you go again. Changing the topic away from your misplaced anger.


Your thought is less coherent than that interview Sandusky gave to Bob Costas.
2012-07-20 04:13:52 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: do you not understand the concept of 'corporate culture'? An organization can develop an internal culture that perpetuates it's values beyond the lifespan of any single individual. And what Paterno did to Penn State was to foster a poisonous culture that said 'protect the football program at all costs'. That has to change...and the only way to change it, is to significantly purge the football program


Good, now I don't have to type it myself.
2012-07-20 04:12:14 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: What are you talking about? First of all, I have no power to punish the truly guilty. Second, fine. Let's investigate Corbett and put him in jail, too. When did I say that I wanted the punishment to end after the death penalty and the statue being removed forever?

By punishing the students and business in the town for a crime they did not commit you are wronging them. The entire town should not suffer for the crimes of a few of it's citizens.


Soooo....when Yahweh leveled Sodom and Gomorrah, lots of innocent people died. When Yahweh flooded the Earth and killed everyone but Noah's family, lots of innocent people died. Which is it? Do you agree with your deity that some punishment of the innocent is a necessity or do you believe that your deity is a monster for punishing so many innocents?
2012-07-20 04:11:21 PM  
1 votes:

Marcus Aurelius: I can't wait to see the video!


I wonder when the riots are scheduled for?
2012-07-20 04:08:43 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: beta_plus: /because everyone felt so sorry for all those poor employees who had nothing to do w/Enron and Worldcom

A true Christian would understand who is to blame and punish them accordingly. Lying false blame is a sin.


Fortunately, we don't go by Christian law or else the boys Sandusky farked would have been stoned to death because they didn't cry out.
2012-07-20 04:07:30 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Who is saying that anyone who knew should go free? I have not read that the Board of Trustees knew about Sandusky. Am I simply uninformed?

Link

Your anger over this statue and football team has masked your ability to punish the truly guilty.


What are you talking about? First of all, I have no power to punish the truly guilty. Second, fine. Let's investigate Corbett and put him in jail, too. When did I say that I wanted the punishment to end after the death penalty and the statue being removed forever?
2012-07-20 04:07:13 PM  
1 votes:

Ricardo Klement: I heard they weren't tearing it down but moving it to the library where it can remind everyone to keep quiet.


i1182.photobucket.com
2012-07-20 04:03:19 PM  
1 votes:

protectyourlimbs: Being forced by public pressure to make a gesture that would show you can at least see what your university did might have been wrong even if it wasn't all together illegal should be an obvious tag but im guessing the submitter is a troll from PSU.


What part wasn't illegal? Penn State had a legal responsibility to report the on-campus rapes. The "educators" had the legal responsibility to report the rape they knew was happening, right?
2012-07-20 04:01:28 PM  
1 votes:
Being forced by public pressure to make a gesture that would show you can at least see what your university did might have been wrong even if it wasn't all together illegal should be an obvious tag but im guessing the submitter is a troll from PSU.
2012-07-20 03:56:33 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Did the Board of Trustees facilitate child rape for over a decade and ensure that the child rapist got a cash bonus?

Anyone with knowledge of the situation and did nothing to stop it is as guilty as Paterno, and anyone that deters punish for those people are as guilty as them. You want your false Idol of college football destroyed? Fine, but that's not going to bring anyone to justice nor punish those guilty of sins. It will only fulfill the sin of Vanity for yourselves.

The vain need for personal satisfaction in a matter you can control is a sin too.


irememberwhentrollingmeantsomething.jpg
2012-07-20 03:55:32 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: So...all you PSU defenders....you all seem to repeat the same things: don't punish the students, Paterno is dead/let it go, PSU football brings in a lot of money....

I've always wanted to ask you folks a question: how much pedophile/rape is too much? Because I'd really like to know where your limits are...see, to me - any amount of rape is evil. And pedophile rape is simply unacceptable under any/all circumstances. But you guys...you all seem ok with covering up a decade of pedo rape. so - what's the breaking point? how many lives destroyed? how many kids have to suffer before you say enough is enough?


Forget it, Jake. The only ones left by now are the trolls and remaining congregation of the First People's Temple of Saint Joe.
2012-07-20 03:50:48 PM  
1 votes:

doglover: These are the same people guarding the statue. There's a lot of pride in and around the university as a whole in PA.


So in order to maintain a sense of pride in the statue university, you need to keep a statue of a publicly disgraced figure?
2012-07-20 03:50:40 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: I am amazed at all the "cancel the football program!" people who claim to want justice but continue to distract the media from the real criminals here, the people who covered this up. They are protecting those who protected a CHILD MOLESTER. In my opinion anyone that thinks tearing down a statue will solve anything is as guilty as the Board of Trustees.


Did the Board of Trustees facilitate child rape for over a decade and ensure that the child rapist got a cash bonus?

We agree that Paterno's casket should be put in jail, along with anyone else who facilitated the rapes.
2012-07-20 03:47:24 PM  
1 votes:

Outrageous Muff: I am amazed at all the "cancel the football program!" people who claim to want justice but continue to distract the media from the real criminals here, the people who covered this up. They are protecting those who protected a CHILD MOLESTER. In my opinion anyone that thinks tearing down a statue will solve anything is as guilty as the Board of Trustees.


so you think that a statue glorifying a man who protected a child molester for personal gain is good, but calling for it to be removed is bad.

that about sum it up?
2012-07-20 02:54:49 PM  
1 votes:
i.qkme.me

// Honouring child molesters and/or their enablers is a very bad idea.
2012-07-20 02:21:23 PM  
1 votes:

sweetmelissa31: doglover: Draconian is exactly what it is to hand out severe legal penalties to parties undeserving. He (the namesake of draconian laws) handed down death for everything from stealing to sloth.

Draconian? You guys can like build your own shrine to Paterno in your dorm rooms or something.


If you want to tell the ladies you'll be a great sexual partner and eventual father, you should definitely dedicate a corner of your room to a shrine to a man who facilitated serial child rape.
2012-07-20 02:16:36 PM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: good. it's a step in the right direction, an indication that the administration is starting to understand that protecting the Paterno cult is a bad thing to do.


Agreed. If they are smart the next step will be a voluntary one year suspension of the football program.
2012-07-20 02:15:59 PM  
1 votes:

gimmegimme: With climbing skills and a buddy to help you jump down?


at least at that point, there was a possibility that paterno was at least "technically" in the clear (all he was required was to push it up the chain even if it was morally questionable that he wouldn't follow up.)

but now, we've seen the freeh report. he was not only right in the middle of the cover-up, but he actively lobbied for it and wanted them to give more money to sandusky. We know that he sat there and watched sandusky parade more boys through the facilities and was ok with it as long as his own paycheck kept going up. We know that he lied to the grand jury about what he knew, and when. And yet, people are still loudly saying that a man who covered up and supported the sexual explotation of children and then lied about it in a legal proceeding- and not for any great moral or philosophical reason, but merely because it allowed him to line his pocket and live well- deserves to have a statue dedicated to his "greatness." I don't get it.
2012-07-20 02:14:06 PM  
1 votes:

doglover: Draconian is exactly what it is to hand out severe legal penalties to parties undeserving. He (the namesake of draconian laws) handed down death for everything from stealing to sloth.


Draconian? You guys can like build your own shrine to Paterno in your dorm rooms or something.
2012-07-20 02:07:57 PM  
1 votes:

tlchwi02: thomps: but i guess if you are going to go down that road you have to ask yourself: once the head and coach are both removed from the hospital in shackles, do you tear down the hospital or hire new people with the moral fiber not to stomp babies?

a more apt comparison would be to stop delivering babies at that hospital. And yes, you might want to disband your maternity ward if it turns out one of the top doctors has been murdering the babies and you covered it up for decades to personally enrich yourself.

in the end, Joe Paterno and the other implicated people covered up the rape of children so they could get rich. how anyone can possibly defend that is quite beyond me.


With climbing skills and a buddy to help you jump down?

www.atvn.org
2012-07-20 02:05:18 PM  
1 votes:

thomps: gimmegimme: IAmRight: Weaver95: I've always wanted to ask you folks a question: how much pedophile/rape is too much?

I'll answer it when you answer whether or not you've stopped beating your wife and stomping on newborn babies in order to get yourself off yet.

If you are the head of the hospital and you know the assistant birthing coach at your hospital is stomping on newborn babies and has been doing it for decades...do you call the cops? Or do you do the humane thing and give him a cash bonus and the right to use the maternity ward whenever he likes?

but i guess if you are going to go down that road you have to ask yourself: once the head and coach are both removed from the hospital in shackles, do you tear down the hospital or hire new people with the moral fiber not to stomp babies?


Oh, I'm not suggesting we tear down the hospital/college. There is so much more to Penn State than just football. Penn State doesn't even need such an extracurricular activity. I'm just saying we need to stop...doing births/playing football for a little while until the culture of the hospital/football program has been changed.
2012-07-20 01:51:39 PM  
1 votes:

Ricardo Klement: I heard they weren't tearing it down but moving it to the library where it can remind everyone to keep quiet.


Stealing this.
2012-07-20 01:44:40 PM  
1 votes:

thomps: Marcus Aurelius: The football program is already mostly dead. How many top high school prospects are going to consider Penn State now? Or next year? Or the year after that?

The fork has already been stuck into that program. It's done for a decade at least.

penn state currently has the #14 recruiting class in the nation according to rivals.com. almost all of whom have committed since joe pa was fired.


You can't expect 18-year-old kids to make good decisions. They'll be allowed to transfer to any other program without penalty.
2012-07-20 01:25:38 PM  
1 votes:
please stop feeding the troll.

also:

commentisfree.guardian.co.uk
2012-07-20 01:23:20 PM  
1 votes:

doglover: You know what? fark you, and fark Penn State. That whole farking town created a cult of personality that fostered this whole criminal conspiracy. The administrators and JoePa didn't cover up CHILD RAPE in a farking vacuum. The sickening behavior of the Penn State student population only reinforces that fact. They need to be beaten and whipped by the press and the NCAA, and the whole athletic department needs a multi-year ban from NCAA competition. People with athletic scholarships should be allowed to stay at Penn State with their original scholarship intact or be allowed to transfer to another program penalty-free.

Your tact and decorum does wonders to support your logical and informed opinions.


Tact and decorum must be maintained when discussing the systemic cover up of child rape, otherwise it might give drunk, frat douche college football fans a tummy ache.

And, really, haven't they suffered enough?
2012-07-20 01:13:42 PM  
1 votes:
The Board of Trustees and administration of Penn State should be ripped apart for not acting to protect the victims of Sandusky's child abuse, but even as cowardly as they were, they would have moved if "Joe Pa" had been on board.

Ultimately, the blame for the cover-up rests with Paterno.
2012-07-20 01:13:36 PM  
1 votes:

doglover: Oh, I know! Let's punish the students and alumni with draconian punishments that would only affect people who couldn't possibly have been involved in any way shape or form. Yeah, that's the ticket.


Draconian? Being a little dramatic are we?

While it is unfortunate that the students & alumni who had no hand in the situation will be "punished," I think it's still important for the NCAA to send the message that this type of behavior will not be tolerated & they won't look the other way. You know... the way Penn State did?
2012-07-20 01:13:06 PM  
1 votes:
This really shouldn't be an issue. Not because of the whole Sandusky thing, but because the idea of having a statue for a football coach on a college campus is ridiculous. They should all be removed.
2012-07-20 01:08:01 PM  
1 votes:
Melt it down, cast a bronze statue of Pedobear to put in its place.

/Shotacat would be better but is not as well known
2012-07-20 01:07:31 PM  
1 votes:
This just in: Universities are places of learning, not sports farm teams.
2012-07-20 12:51:58 PM  
1 votes:
Internet Lynch Mob: 1

Pen State Pedos: 10 (that we know of)
2012-07-20 12:38:40 PM  
1 votes:

WTF Indeed: The My Little Pony Killer: The administration that helped cover it up.

Is no longer there. So punishing the school now is the same as firing someone than punishing his replacement for former employees crimes.

The My Little Pony Killer: Why are you so against the right people being punished here?

How does canceling the football program punish the AG for not arresting Sandusky in 2005 when he knew he was molesting kids?


Well it cuts off a cash cow for Pennslyvania STATE University, thereby extracting some measure of revenge on officials of both the University and the State who aided and abetted child rape.

Time to go look at the Unversity boosters with a fine toothed comb. I will lay dollars to donuts that a few more pedophiles are revealed to be in their ranks and it will come out that Sandusky traded donations for access to his stable
2012-07-20 12:34:42 PM  
1 votes:

Krymson Tyde: sigdiamond2000: They better get the riot police and National Guard ready.

I hope ESPN or someone covers the removal/clash.


I'd love it if the kids in the physics department went all "Real Genius" and just reduced the thing to molten bronze with a big-ass laser
2012-07-20 12:29:38 PM  
1 votes:

Krymson Tyde: There's plenty of blame to go around, including, but not limited to the football program.


Who is more to blame. The football program or the people who actively did nothing while children were being raped because reporting it would hurt them. The college admins didn't report it because it would hurt the school, the police and DA didn't report it for the same reason. The AG didn't do anything about it because he needed money to fund the GOP.

I don't give a shiat about football, but canceling the football program doesn't punish anyone that should be rightly punished. It only makes radio show hosts feel good.
2012-07-20 12:27:33 PM  
1 votes:

WTF Indeed: The question you need to ask yourself is who are villains?


The administration that helped cover it up. They are the ones being punished. The students would be able to take their financial aid and transfer to another school, and still get the same education, not be punished, etc etc.

Why are you so against the right people being punished here?
2012-07-20 12:13:00 PM  
1 votes:

WTF Indeed: That's not enough. They need to tear the school down, brick by brick.


starsmedia.ign.com

It's the only way to be sure
2012-07-20 12:07:55 PM  
1 votes:
That's not enough. They need to tear the school down, brick by brick. It's the only way to make sure that the students who had no knowledge of the crimes are made to suffer for the few administrators that did.
2012-07-20 12:07:13 PM  
1 votes:

sigdiamond2000: They better get the riot police and National Guard ready.


I hope ESPN or someone covers the removal/clash.
2012-07-20 11:58:18 AM  
1 votes:
About time.
 
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