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(Sports Illustrated)   Penn State trustees vote to take Happy Valley out of the Bronze Age   (tracking.si.com) divider line 491
    More: Hero, Happy Valley, Penn State, Beaver Stadium, Joe Paterno, NFL Network, board of trustees, Kimberly Jones  
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6531 clicks; posted to Sports » on 20 Jul 2012 at 3:31 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-20 11:41:57 PM

birchman: I had Snu Snu: birchman: So why are you OK with the B1G kicking them out, but not with the NCAA not allowing them to play for a couple years? If it has nothing to do with football, why is one OK and not the other?

Because the two are totally different? The B1G isn't telling them that they can't play football, just that they have to find another conference or go back to being independent. They aren't telling them to take a few years off. That's like saying what's the difference between getting fired and going to jail. The two aren't really on the same level at all.

What would be the B1G's reason for kicking them out?


Are you trolling, stupid, or just not paying attention? There is a HUGE difference between being kicked out of a conference and being told you can't play football for a few seasons. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? I NEVER said that they shouldn't be punished. I've already said I don't have all the answers (the horror!) However, just because they deserve some very serious punishment doesn't mean they deserve the death penalty. The options aren't Death Penalty or nothing. It's a hard concept but just try to keep up. This topic might be a little over your head champ.

Either way I'm done with you because you're either intentionally being ignorant or aren't capable of having a real debate. Have a nice evening.
 
2012-07-20 11:44:45 PM
No football program = no reason to cover up child rape to protect football program

If other schools are covering up child rape to protect their football programs then shut down their football programs too. Same thing if a school's theoretical mathematics program or any other program is so protected that monstrous things are done and hidden in the name of protecting rhe program. Penn State cant handle football. Football handles Renn State. Burn down football to save the worthwhile parts.
 
2012-07-20 11:45:58 PM

I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: birchman: So why are you OK with the B1G kicking them out, but not with the NCAA not allowing them to play for a couple years? If it has nothing to do with football, why is one OK and not the other?

Because the two are totally different? The B1G isn't telling them that they can't play football, just that they have to find another conference or go back to being independent. They aren't telling them to take a few years off. That's like saying what's the difference between getting fired and going to jail. The two aren't really on the same level at all.

What would be the B1G's reason for kicking them out?

Are you trolling, stupid, or just not paying attention? There is a HUGE difference between being kicked out of a conference and being told you can't play football for a few seasons. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? I NEVER said that they shouldn't be punished. I've already said I don't have all the answers (the horror!) However, just because they deserve some very serious punishment doesn't mean they deserve the death penalty. The options aren't Death Penalty or nothing. It's a hard concept but just try to keep up. This topic might be a little over your head champ.

Either way I'm done with you because you're either intentionally being ignorant or aren't capable of having a real debate. Have a nice evening.


I'm just worried because Penn State football has a well-documented long-term history of facilitating and paying bonuses for child rape. Why not make them take a time out until people can be sure they no longer have such policies?
 
2012-07-20 11:53:20 PM

I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: birchman: So why are you OK with the B1G kicking them out, but not with the NCAA not allowing them to play for a couple years? If it has nothing to do with football, why is one OK and not the other?

Because the two are totally different? The B1G isn't telling them that they can't play football, just that they have to find another conference or go back to being independent. They aren't telling them to take a few years off. That's like saying what's the difference between getting fired and going to jail. The two aren't really on the same level at all.

What would be the B1G's reason for kicking them out?

Are you trolling, stupid, or just not paying attention? There is a HUGE difference between being kicked out of a conference and being told you can't play football for a few seasons. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? I NEVER said that they shouldn't be punished. I've already said I don't have all the answers (the horror!) However, just because they deserve some very serious punishment doesn't mean they deserve the death penalty. The options aren't Death Penalty or nothing. It's a hard concept but just try to keep up. This topic might be a little over your head champ.

Either way I'm done with you because you're either intentionally being ignorant or aren't capable of having a real debate. Have a nice evening.


Whatever dude. You've maintained several times this isn't about football, yet you're OK with their football program being kicked out of the conference. If you want to argue that a conference is about more than football I can buy that, but then that goes against your stance of not punishing the people who weren't involved. Conference affiliation includes many sports, and in the case of the B1G, lots of money in research grants. So which is it? I'm not the idiot here, "CHAMP". Sleep tight buddy, hopefully you weren't bored by my simpleton logic.
 
2012-07-20 11:54:30 PM
You know, for a JoePa fark thread, I'm seeing the usual hits, but it is still missing:
The report is just guessing about JoePa and there's no real evidence that he did anything beyond not following up with his superiors.

I guess that is finally not number 1 on the charts.

Also, after being on fark too long, I did laugh when the sculptor mentioned a possibility was just to cover up the thing for alittle bit (paraphrasing, but the article is on ESPN)
 
2012-07-20 11:57:04 PM

Johnny Swank: Seriously, you're arguing that Penn State should not get further sanctions because a bunch of crackerass crackers in Central Pennsylvania would have a persecution complex because of it. That's pathetic.


Actually it's because I actually believe in justice and punishing the guilty. Not draconian sweeping punishments that don't make any sense other than making some people feel like they really did something. Cancelling the program is exactly that, it accomplishes nothing but making you feel good and then absolutely nothing changes. I'm about moving forward and actually changing the culture instead of continuing to talk about terrible things that happened in the past.

mikaloyd: You think the death penalty would cause even more kids to get raped at Penn State with longer more involved instituionalizes coverups to protect the football program? Or are you talking about some other less important goal which the death penalty might not help?


Nope but cancelling the program won't make less children get raped. I think it would further shut that community off making it harder for them to ever rejoin the rest of country. It would take more of the sensible fans and turn them into the lunatic fringe because of the growing "us vs. them" mentality. I think it would make it much harder to move on and change for the better instead of demanding a pound of flesh just for the lulz and to pat myself on the back.

gimmegimme: Seriously. I had Snu Snu seems to care more about Penn State football than preventing the child rape the program facilitated and paid for in cash.


I couldn't give less of a shiat about Penn State football if I tried. Seriously. I don't have a single connection to that school and it makes not a single bit of difference in my life. That doesn't mean that I can't spot a dumb idea when I see it. Culture doesn't change by hitting the pause button and waiting it out. It changes by being proactive and moving forward.

Isn't this the kind of thinking that got Penn State where it is today? This is why the death penalty is a good idea. Let's take the focus off of football and put it onto turning young people into good men and women and scholars.

This happened because a coach believed that he was above the rules and could do as he pleased. He was right. That has been changed. Hitting the pause button will keep the focus ON the football team and the terrible things that happened instead of what is happening now and what will happen in the future as they progress forward and we can all witness the culture at the school change. It might not be as satisfying in the short term but in the long run it will be much better for everybody involved.

I'm not justifying what happened in the slightest. It is the most despicable and heinous act I've ever heard of in my life. That doesn't mean the only answer is to take away the program, even temporarily. The people responsible have been dealt with, are being dealt with, or have died. Get over your feeling of bloodlust and your need for revenge and actually think critically about this. Try to solve the problem instead of demanding more suffering and anger and negativity. Nothing will ever change what happened to those children, as much as it breaks my heart it to say it. We can either sit around and talk about what happened and twist our mustaches while we plot our revenge; or we can move forward and change things. JoePa is dead, Sandusky is in jail, the rest will get theirs in court, taking away football does nothing to them. It just makes absolutely no sense and will make things worse.
 
2012-07-20 11:59:48 PM
Hate to tell you all this...there had been NO DECISION to take down the statute.

/Not defending Paterno. Just reporting CORRECT news.
 
2012-07-21 12:00:17 AM

gimmegimme: I'm just worried because Penn State football has a well-documented long-term history of facilitating and paying bonuses for child rape. Why not make them take a time out until people can be sure they no longer have such policies?


How can you change anything if there's nothing to change? The people that instituted this "policy" have been charged, fired, will die in prison, and have already died. You don't move forward by hitting pause. It's not really complicated.
 
2012-07-21 12:00:38 AM

I had Snu Snu: taking away football does nothing to them. It just makes absolutely no sense and will make things worse.


Yet taking away their conference affiliation and research grants for their education departments is totally cool. You're a visionary.
 
2012-07-21 12:04:37 AM

geom_00: Hate to tell you all this...there had been NO DECISION to take down the statute.

/Not defending Paterno. Just reporting CORRECT news.


There has been no official public announcement. Whether there has been a decision or not is not known by anyone for sure, although there are many rumors. Sorry, just reporting CORRECT news.
 
2012-07-21 12:05:22 AM

birchman: I had Snu Snu: taking away football does nothing to them. It just makes absolutely no sense and will make things worse.

Yet taking away their conference affiliation and research grants for their education departments is totally cool. You're a visionary.


Nothing "champ"?
 
2012-07-21 12:05:42 AM

birchman: I had Snu Snu: taking away football does nothing to them. It just makes absolutely no sense and will make things worse.

Yet taking away their conference affiliation and research grants for their education departments is totally cool. You're a visionary.


So you're theory is death penalty or bust? That's the only option that will make you feel better? The only punishment possible is the harshest one? My god your world must be so simple! You never really have to think about anything, unfortunately I live in reality where things aren't always black and white so I don't have that luxury. Must be nice though. I really wish this whole thing was that simple and that your magic "death penalty wand" would fix everything but that's not really the case. Also, the B1G could remove just PSU football and keep the other sports. It's not without precedence, but then we're back to your whole all-or-nothing approach.

/I can't believe I got sucked back in but your simplicity is magnetic
 
2012-07-21 12:07:01 AM

birchman: geom_00: Hate to tell you all this...there had been NO DECISION to take down the statute.

/Not defending Paterno. Just reporting CORRECT news.

There has been no official public announcement. Whether there has been a decision or not is not known by anyone for sure, although there are many rumors. Sorry, just reporting CORRECT news.


Much better started.

/Sorry for sounding haughty.
 
2012-07-21 12:07:45 AM

I had Snu Snu: Also, the B1G could remove just PSU football and keep the other sports. It's not without precedence, but then we're back to your whole all-or-nothing approach.


So how is that "not about football"? Please, lead my simplistic mind down this trail of enlightenment.
 
2012-07-21 12:08:56 AM

Carousel Beast: Specific people committed specific crimes, and they need to be dealt with specifically. What you propose, sir or madam, is neither rational nor just.


It's amazing how the concept of institutional power can escape even seemingly otherwise intelligent people.
 
2012-07-21 12:11:21 AM

I had Snu Snu: bloodlust


Suggesting that maybe the football team should spend some time in the penalty box is "bloodlust"?

/it's just football
//duh
 
2012-07-21 12:13:26 AM

birchman: I had Snu Snu: Also, the B1G could remove just PSU football and keep the other sports. It's not without precedence, but then we're back to your whole all-or-nothing approach.

So how is that "not about football"? Please, lead my simplistic mind down this trail of enlightenment.


I said that the coverup wasn't done to gain anything tangible "football-wise" and was instead Joe covering up for a friend because Sandusky hasn't been part of the program since 1999. In an indirect way the argument could be made that because recruits didn't know he was a pedophile that was advantageous but that seems to be a stretch.

tl;dr - You're not making sense.Unless you can define what "not about football" pertains to or could point me towards what I said that you keep referencing.
 
2012-07-21 12:14:08 AM

doglover: Moral of the story: The mob prefers innocent blood.


I find this attitude puzzling. NOBODY in the PSU football program is 'innocent'. they all looked the other way and/or pretended nothing was wrong with the organization.
 
2012-07-21 12:15:01 AM

AliceBToklasLives: I had Snu Snu: bloodlust

Suggesting that maybe the football team should spend some time in the penalty box is "bloodlust"?

/it's just football
//duh


What does it accomplish? How does it make anything any better?
 
2012-07-21 12:16:52 AM

Weaver95: doglover: Moral of the story: The mob prefers innocent blood.

I find this attitude puzzling. NOBODY in the PSU football program is 'innocent'. they all looked the other way and/or pretended nothing was wrong with the organization.


Who is this "all"? The entire program knew what was going on and helped cover it up? Every single person? That's almost as bad as when all the Muslims attacked us on 9/11. amirite? Extremes are fun!
 
2012-07-21 12:17:02 AM

I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: Also, the B1G could remove just PSU football and keep the other sports. It's not without precedence, but then we're back to your whole all-or-nothing approach.

So how is that "not about football"? Please, lead my simplistic mind down this trail of enlightenment.

I said that the coverup wasn't done to gain anything tangible "football-wise" and was instead Joe covering up for a friend because Sandusky hasn't been part of the program since 1999. In an indirect way the argument could be made that because recruits didn't know he was a pedophile that was advantageous but that seems to be a stretch.

tl;dr - You're not making sense.Unless you can define what "not about football" pertains to or could point me towards what I said that you keep referencing.


PSU football made a LOT of money while Sandusky was on his rape binge. had that story gone public, odds are Paterno would have been in trouble, the football program would have suffered and the cash flow would have slowed. Paterno covered up the rapes and pretended nothing was wrong and made serious cash for doing so, as did the university. lots of people directly benefited from the Sandusky cover up.

that's yet another reason PSU football needs to be shut down for a while.
 
2012-07-21 12:19:26 AM

I had Snu Snu: Weaver95: doglover: Moral of the story: The mob prefers innocent blood.

I find this attitude puzzling. NOBODY in the PSU football program is 'innocent'. they all looked the other way and/or pretended nothing was wrong with the organization.

Who is this "all"? The entire program knew what was going on and helped cover it up? Every single person? That's almost as bad as when all the Muslims attacked us on 9/11. amirite? Extremes are fun!


yup. all of 'em. they all knew something was wrong. They didn't ask questions tho. everyone just sat down, STFU and did what Paterno told them to do. He ran the show, he was the Big Boss....anyone who said different, paid a price for it. So yeah, they all knew something bad was going on and they didn't bother trying to find out what was going on.

shut down the football program, melt that statue down for scrap metal and scrub every last painting of Paterno off university walls.
 
2012-07-21 12:21:00 AM

Weaver95: I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: Also, the B1G could remove just PSU football and keep the other sports. It's not without precedence, but then we're back to your whole all-or-nothing approach.

So how is that "not about football"? Please, lead my simplistic mind down this trail of enlightenment.

I said that the coverup wasn't done to gain anything tangible "football-wise" and was instead Joe covering up for a friend because Sandusky hasn't been part of the program since 1999. In an indirect way the argument could be made that because recruits didn't know he was a pedophile that was advantageous but that seems to be a stretch.

tl;dr - You're not making sense.Unless you can define what "not about football" pertains to or could point me towards what I said that you keep referencing.

PSU football made a LOT of money while Sandusky was on his rape binge. had that story gone public, odds are Paterno would have been in trouble, the football program would have suffered and the cash flow would have slowed. Paterno covered up the rapes and pretended nothing was wrong and made serious cash for doing so, as did the university. lots of people directly benefited from the Sandusky cover up.

that's yet another reason PSU football needs to be shut down for a while.


I think you have the words directly and indirectly confused. And those that were aware of the coverup have been, are being, or will be dealt with. The entire program has been reshuffled with totally new blood with no ties to anybody there before them. But sure, lets just get us that pound o' flesh so we can congratulate ourselves for being such great people! I mean, the death penalty works so well in the rest of society so it MUST work in this case!
 
2012-07-21 12:21:57 AM
Just my two cents.

Weaver, you say that ALL in the program are guilty. I politely disagree. The players now on the squad? They have never been coached, or probably even knew of Sandusky before this year. I am NOT saying that EVERYONE on the staff is innocent....but I think (key word THINK) the players are...and are just in a HORRIBLE situation.

Here is my question.

I have voiced this before: What would be the economic impact of the small towns around PSU if they would not play football? I am NOT saying play or not play. I am just asking.
 
2012-07-21 12:22:40 AM
Oh yeah....

/Puts on flame retardant suit.
 
2012-07-21 12:24:11 AM

Weaver95: yup. all of 'em. they all knew something was wrong. They didn't ask questions tho. everyone just sat down, STFU and did what Paterno told them to do. He ran the show, he was the Big Boss....anyone who said different, paid a price for it. So yeah, they all knew something bad was going on and they didn't bother trying to find out what was going on.


faqsmedia.ign.com

Prove to me that they "ALL" knew something was going on. Just step back and let the emotion subside and think critically for a moment. I know it's hard because of how awful these crimes were but do you just want punishment or do you want things to actually change?
 
2012-07-21 12:24:49 AM
BTW Penn State is likely going to have some explicit NCAA violations to answer for too. Like how football players have been treated different when it comes to discipline than any other students. That's not allowed by NCAA rules, and the Freeh report supplied evidence of it. And it wasn't this one guy or these guys, it was the team, season after season. And the AD and others knew about this.
 
2012-07-21 12:25:01 AM

I had Snu Snu: birchman: I had Snu Snu: Also, the B1G could remove just PSU football and keep the other sports. It's not without precedence, but then we're back to your whole all-or-nothing approach.

So how is that "not about football"? Please, lead my simplistic mind down this trail of enlightenment.

I said that the coverup wasn't done to gain anything tangible "football-wise" and was instead Joe covering up for a friend because Sandusky hasn't been part of the program since 1999. In an indirect way the argument could be made that because recruits didn't know he was a pedophile that was advantageous but that seems to be a stretch.

tl;dr - You're not making sense.Unless you can define what "not about football" pertains to or could point me towards what I said that you keep referencing.


If this coverup was not about football, but Joe's caring for his personal good rapist friend, then you have the right to make that argument I guess. But you can't then turn around and say it's OK to kick the football program out of the conference (which is punishing the innocent). You especially can't then say that it's out of line for the NCAA to punish the football program in any significant way that would hurt anyone else that wasn't involved if you're OK with the conference doing it. If you want to make the argument that they don't need a conference to be successful in this day in age and it's not really a punishment, you can go right ahead, but you'll be laughed out of the room.

By the way, I never said it needs to be death penalty or bust. I'd like it to be, but it's their decision, not mine. I think they send a bad message to other institutions if child-rape coverup isn't worthy of a harsh punishment. Like I said, a football program is not a right like some people seem to think.
 
2012-07-21 12:26:17 AM

WhyteRaven74: BTW Penn State is likely going to have some explicit NCAA violations to answer for too. Like how football players have been treated different when it comes to discipline than any other students. That's not allowed by NCAA rules, and the Freeh report supplied evidence of it. And it wasn't this one guy or these guys, it was the team, season after season. And the AD and others knew about this.


This...I have to agree with.
 
2012-07-21 12:26:32 AM

geom_00:

I have voiced this before: What would be the economic impact of the small towns around PSU if they would not play football? I am NOT saying play or not play. I am just asking.


what's the price point on a raped kid? that's what you're really asking you know. you're saying 'hey, so a couple kids got raped - PSU is too big to fail!' so...what's the price point on a rape? how many kids have to be raped before you consider the economic impact worth dealing with the potential backlash of a pile of traumatized kids would bring to the table....?
 
2012-07-21 12:27:04 AM

I had Snu Snu: I mean, the death penalty works so well in the rest of society so it MUST work in this case!


You should keep making that argument, it really makes you look intelligent and isn't a false equivalency at all.
 
2012-07-21 12:28:04 AM

I had Snu Snu: Weaver95: yup. all of 'em. they all knew something was wrong. They didn't ask questions tho. everyone just sat down, STFU and did what Paterno told them to do. He ran the show, he was the Big Boss....anyone who said different, paid a price for it. So yeah, they all knew something bad was going on and they didn't bother trying to find out what was going on.

[faqsmedia.ign.com image 363x310]

Prove to me that they "ALL" knew something was going on. Just step back and let the emotion subside and think critically for a moment. I know it's hard because of how awful these crimes were but do you just want punishment or do you want things to actually change?


y'know... you might find a review of the Nuremberg trials worth some time and effort. the 'I didn't know' defense didn't work very well for those folks, I don't think it's gonna fly for the PSU football program either.
 
2012-07-21 12:29:22 AM
I'm done arguing with people who think football programs should be able to run underground child rape rooms in their locker rooms and play dumb when they get caught. Night all.
 
2012-07-21 12:29:25 AM

I had Snu Snu: AliceBToklasLives: I had Snu Snu: bloodlust

Suggesting that maybe the football team should spend some time in the penalty box is "bloodlust"?

/it's just football
//duh

What does it accomplish? How does it make anything any better?


The football coach isn't treated like a God (who is paid far more than the university's president) and given absurd amounts of power, the kind of power that allowed this horror to be cover up.

Football at schools like Penn State is like a cult, and there is abundant evidence that that cult extends to the "community." And, yes, I'll extend that argument to USC, Miami, and other corrupt programs.

It is a lesson for the community - there's more to life than football, and the players and coaches are but mere mortal - and no blood is spilt (spilled?) in the process.
 
2012-07-21 12:29:39 AM

WhyteRaven74: BTW Penn State is likely going to have some explicit NCAA violations to answer for too. Like how football players have been treated different when it comes to discipline than any other students. That's not allowed by NCAA rules, and the Freeh report supplied evidence of it. And it wasn't this one guy or these guys, it was the team, season after season. And the AD and others knew about this.


I hope the NCAA hits PSU's football program with everything they've got. Shut 'em down, at least for a couple years.
 
2012-07-21 12:31:45 AM

I had Snu Snu: I mean, the death penalty works so well in the rest of society so it MUST work in this case!


The NCAA death penalty is a temporary but complete ban on playing for a season or two: rather less permanent than what the term "death penalty" implies in other contexts. The NCAA's use is something of a misnomer, but either way it kills your analogy.

But then, I support both types of death penalty in their respective contexts.
 
2012-07-21 12:34:30 AM

birchman: If this coverup was not about football, but Joe's caring for his personal good rapist friend, then you have the right to make that argument I guess. But you can't then turn around and say it's OK to kick the football program out of the conference (which is punishing the innocent). You especially can't then say that it's out of line for the NCAA to punish the football program in any significant way that would hurt anyone else that wasn't involved if you're OK with the conference doing it. If you want to make the argument that they don't need a conference to be successful in this day in age and it's not really a punishment, you can go right ahead, but you'll be laughed out of the room.


Dude, I have said it dozens of times in this thread. I'm all for some serious shiat happening to them, I don't know what that might entail but it needs to go down. That doesn't mean I think the program should be taken away, even temporarily. The reason for that is that I don't think it would have the intended effect, I think it would only further complicate matters and make the situation even worse by crystallizing an "us vs. them" mentality at PSU and turning Joe into a bigger martyr than he is now. Moving forward under different leadership from top to bottom is a much more effective response If IMO. If you take that program away now the only picture anybody will have of it for a very long time is what it is right now, regardless of how it looks when it comes back. If O'Brien comes in and does a good job and runs a tight ship then people will move on from Joe that much sooner and focus on the future instead of the horrible shiat that happened in the past. If they have to be independent for a decade or two, so be it. The pressure is on them to show the rest of the world that the pall that is hanging over their program was the doing of a few powerdrunk sociopaths and not something that will define them as a community. As a fan of humanity I really hope they do so.
 
2012-07-21 12:36:17 AM

I had Snu Snu: What does it accomplish?


It takes away the metaphorical booze for which the equally-metaphorical alcoholics lost control, forcing them to take some time to sober up.

How does it make anything any better?

By demolishing the football-centric culture that made this all possible.
 
2012-07-21 12:38:46 AM

I had Snu Snu: The pressure is on them to show the rest of the world that the pall that is hanging over their program was the doing of a few powerdrunk sociopaths and not something that will define them as a community. As a fan of humanity I really hope they do so.


If history is any guide at all, organizations as corrupt as PSU football won't change on their own - they HAVE to be forced to clean up their act.
 
2012-07-21 12:40:18 AM

AliceBToklasLives: The football coach isn't treated like a God (who is paid far more than the university's president) and given absurd amounts of power, the kind of power that allowed this horror to be cover up.


If you think that's just a problem at PSU you are in for a rude awakening. It's the nature of the business.. If you think turning him into more a martyr is the answer to that problem then I guess that's your opinion but it doesn't make much sense.

birchman: I'm done arguing with people who think football programs should be able to run underground child rape rooms in their locker rooms and play dumb when they get caught. Night all.


Link? You're back to that all or nothing shiat again.

birchman: I had Snu Snu: I mean, the death penalty works so well in the rest of society so it MUST work in this case!

You should keep making that argument, it really makes you look intelligent and isn't a false equivalency at all.


How so? They're both done as a deterrent to other people breaking the law/rules and a means to get revenge on somebody we find repulsive and not fit to be a part of our society. They've both been shown to not have that desired effect (did the SMU scandal kill all cheating and paying of players?), and they are both draconian and don't get to the root of the problem. How is it a false equivalency?
 
2012-07-21 12:43:16 AM

I had Snu Snu: Dude, I have said it dozens of times in this thread. I'm all for some serious shiat happening to them, I don't know what that might entail but it needs to go down.


No, actually, you don't support anything serious happening to them. We're talking about an obsessive institution and culture here; nothing else would be serious from their perspective. Even demolishing the entire school wouldn't be as serious, because it would be a heavy-handed move with a blunt object: something they can rationalize away to distract them from the real problems. A surgical strike at the heart of the problem is not only more appropriate, but, in this particular case, more likely to have the desired effect.

That doesn't mean I think the program should be taken away, even temporarily. The reason for that is that I don't think it would have the intended effect, I think it would only further complicate matters and make the situation even worse by crystallizing an "us vs. them" mentality at PSU and turning Joe into a bigger martyr than he is now.

Joe's martyrdom is fading, as people come to their senses about him. The "us vs. them" mindset you so fear will not materialize in any significant numbers, and even in those who overreact in the way you describe it will die out quickly enough.

Moving forward under different leadership from top to bottom is a much more effective response IMO.

Your opinion fails to take into account that the real failure here came not from the leaders (though they certainly deserve the blame for their decisions), but the culture. Replacing the leaders will do no good if the culture remains to pressure the new leaders in the same ways it pressured the old.

The pressure is on them to show the rest of the world that the pall that is hanging over their program was the doing of a few powerdrunk sociopaths and not something that will define them as a community. As a fan of humanity I really hope they do so.

They've already failed that test. The continued prevalence of Paterno-apologists proves it. Thus, sterner measures are required. They defend the man because football, so it's time to take that away from them.
 
2012-07-21 12:44:09 AM

Millennium: It takes away the metaphorical booze for which the equally-metaphorical alcoholics lost control, forcing them to take some time to sober up.


What about this case makes you think that will be the outcome? Or that this is the best way to do it? Either way that's a very strange analogy.

Millennium: By demolishing the football-centric culture that made this all possible.


Yeah, that's not going to happen by taking the program away. Actually, the exact opposite will happen. It will elevate Joe into even more of a god than he is now and that he went down "fighting the good fight"

Weaver95: If history is any guide at all, organizations as corrupt as PSU football won't change on their own - they HAVE to be forced to clean up their act.


You mean like firing the coach that had been there for 60 some years, the AD, the president of the university, and a bunch of other people involved? And then bringing in a whole new staff with no ties to the old regime? Basically changing everything about the program that had been constant since a little after WW2? Hmmm, if only they had done something like that already.
 
2012-07-21 12:52:42 AM
Snu Snu is right. We shouldn't punish the football program after the bad guys have gone.

In that same vein, I think the NCAA needs to let Ohio State play in a bowl game this year and give them back the lost scholarships. Also, they owe USC a huge apology and monetary compensation for the missed bowl games. After all, Tressel and Pryor are long gone. Reggie Bush and Pete Carroll jumped ship way before the USC bowl ban.

/hurr
//durr
 
2012-07-21 12:53:40 AM

Weaver95: geom_00:

I have voiced this before: What would be the economic impact of the small towns around PSU if they would not play football? I am NOT saying play or not play. I am just asking.

what's the price point on a raped kid? that's what you're really asking you know. you're saying 'hey, so a couple kids got raped - PSU is too big to fail!' so...what's the price point on a rape? how many kids have to be raped before you consider the economic impact worth dealing with the potential backlash of a pile of traumatized kids would bring to the table....?


I do understand your point, Weaver. I truly do.

This whole cluster is a lose lose lose lose situation.

However, the kids who were raped are the MAIN point here. NOT football. NOT the statue. Not Peachy Paterno. The kids.

On a personal note, thank you for not being to hard on me. As an alum...I am just emotionally exhausted over this all.
 
2012-07-21 12:55:06 AM

Millennium: Joe's martyrdom is fading, as people come to their senses about him


Millennium: The continued prevalence of Paterno-apologists proves it.


Soooooo, which is it?

Honest question: Do you think you can really change the culture of that community just by taking away the football team for a few years? Wouldn't actually changing the culture be more effective at changing the culture? Like they've done and been doing?

No, actually, you don't support anything serious happening to them. We're talking about an obsessive institution and culture here; nothing else would be serious from their perspective. Even demolishing the entire school wouldn't be as serious, because it would be a heavy-handed move with a blunt object: something they can rationalize away to distract them from the real problems. A surgical strike at the heart of the problem is not only more appropriate, but, in this particular case, more likely to have the desired effect.

What you're suggesting isn't a "surgical strike". That would be getting rid of the people involved. Cutting away the cancer, if you will.

Millennium: Joe's martyrdom is fading, as people come to their senses about him. The "us vs. them" mindset you so fear will not materialize in any significant numbers, and even in those who overreact in the way you describe it will die out quickly enough.


His martydom is beginning to fade because he's no longer part of the program and most people are looking forward. If you want to make this whole thing about him again then cancel the program, see what happens then. Also, tell the people guarding his farking statue that his martydom is gone. It may be weakening but it's still fresh enough to flame back up.

Millennium: Your opinion fails to take into account that the real failure here came not from the leaders (though they certainly deserve the blame for their decisions), but the culture. Replacing the leaders will do no good if the culture remains to pressure the new leaders in the same ways it pressured the old.


Again, how do you change a culture? I don't see how taking away the football team will change the culture at all except uniting them all together in anger. Instead of bringing them all together in a healthy and progressive way by moving forward with the team under new management. If you take away the team things will stagnate and make it harder to change in the long run. Culture is a fluid thing, it got the way it is now because Joe was there for so long and did things his way. If you put the program on hold how is that changing anything? That, to me anyway, is the antithesis of changing the culture.

They've already failed that test. The continued prevalence of Paterno-apologists proves it. Thus, sterner measures are required. They defend the man because football, so it's time to take that away from them.

Again, you can't have it both ways. If they defend Joe because of his accomplishments then freezing any new accomplishments from happening by anybody else is a strange way to move on. Let O'Brien do his thing and bring in a new era and new culture at the school.
 
2012-07-21 12:57:20 AM

Spaced Cowboy: Snu Snu is right. We shouldn't punish the football program after the bad guys have gone.


How many other ways can I say that they deserve some incredibly harsh penalties? I have never once said otherwise, that doesn't mean that i think they should lose the entire program though. Again, do you want revenge or do you want justice and for things to change for the better? If you just want revenge and to cause more negativity than by all means take away their program.
 
2012-07-21 12:58:09 AM

Spaced Cowboy: Ohio State play in a bowl game


I know you are joking, but I do have a question.

A lot of people are citing "lack of institutional control" as one of the reasons to give PSU the death penalty.

Wouldn't tOSU also be in that category? Tressel knew about the trading for tattoos, and still let it happen.

I am NOTcomparing the OSU scandal to the PSU scandal. I am just really curious.
 
2012-07-21 01:17:39 AM

geom_00: Spaced Cowboy: Ohio State play in a bowl game

I know you are joking, but I do have a question.

A lot of people are citing "lack of institutional control" as one of the reasons to give PSU the death penalty.

Wouldn't tOSU also be in that category? Tressel knew about the trading for tattoos, and still let it happen.

I am NOTcomparing the OSU scandal to the PSU scandal. I am just really curious.


As a Buckeye, I agree that there was some lack of control, with the coach and the AD. (Who isn't unemployed yet, for some reason. He must know where the metaphorical bodies were buried.) Sure...Tressel lost some control. But Penn State had FAR LESS control. Penn State had so little control that they couldn't prevent a serial child rapist from raping children on their property and collecting cash bonuses. That same child rapist was still recruiting on their behalf and chilling in the weight room and in the luxury boxes before someone who was NOT affiliated with Penn State heard about the serial child rape.

It's the difference between the girl you've had a crush on for ten years getting married and your wife of ten years deliberately giving you herpes, then running off with a trucker named Boom-Boom. They are both losses of control, but one is WAY worse.
 
2012-07-21 01:21:33 AM

gimmegimme: They are both losses of control, but one is WAY worse.


Thank you for answering that in a logical way.

I agree PSU is WAY WAY WAY worse. Again, thank you for answering this logically, and not killing me for asking it!

/Good luck with your season! I hope your new coach does your program proud....although..I am sure he will.
 
2012-07-21 01:22:33 AM

I had Snu Snu: If you think turning him into more a martyr is the answer to that problem then I guess that's your opinion but it doesn't make much sense.


I dunno - bin Laden hasn't been treated much like a martyr. Then again, we're talking about a crazy cult, so maybe Paterno will have more staying power.
 
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