gimmegimme: What are you talking about? First of all, I have no power to punish the truly guilty. Second, fine. Let's investigate Corbett and put him in jail, too. When did I say that I wanted the punishment to end after the death penalty and the statue being removed forever?

By punishing the students and business in the town for a crime they did not commit you are wronging them. The entire town should not suffer for the crimes of a few of it's citizens.

I would shutdown the football program for a few years. And then bring it back, BUT only as a Division III program. Good bye Syracuse, Hello Ithaca. Good bye OSU, hello Mount Union.

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: What are you talking about? First of all, I have no power to punish the truly guilty. Second, fine. Let's investigate Corbett and put him in jail, too. When did I say that I wanted the punishment to end after the death penalty and the statue being removed forever?

By punishing the students and business in the town for a crime they did not commit you are wronging them. The entire town should not suffer for the crimes of a few of it's citizens.

Soooo....when Yahweh leveled Sodom and Gomorrah, lots of innocent people died. When Yahweh flooded the Earth and killed everyone but Noah's family, lots of innocent people died. Which is it? Do you agree with your deity that some punishment of the innocent is a necessity or do you believe that your deity is a monster for punishing so many innocents?

gimmegimme: Soooo....when Yahweh leveled Sodom and Gomorrah, lots of innocent people died. When Yahweh flooded the Earth and killed everyone but Noah's family, lots of innocent people died. Which is it? Do you agree with your deity that some punishment of the innocent is a necessity or do you believe that your deity is a monster for punishing so many innocents?

There you go again. Changing the topic away from your misplaced anger.

Weaver95: do you not understand the concept of 'corporate culture'? An organization can develop an internal culture that perpetuates it's values beyond the lifespan of any single individual. And what Paterno did to Penn State was to foster a poisonous culture that said 'protect the football program at all costs'. That has to change...and the only way to change it, is to significantly purge the football program

Good, now I don't have to type it myself.

AliceBToklasLives: Penn State Thread ™

**** Spoiler Alert ****

Here's what will happen in this thread:

Around comment 100 (about now) almost everyone will ignore the topic at hand and move to the following 10 talking points:

1. Rational Person will say "perhaps Penn State's football team should be shut down for a time, since the cover-up was due to the excessive amount of power people like Paterno had in the University."
1a. Penn State Apologist/Troll will rebut: "but innocent people will be harmed - the whole community relies on football."
1b. Rational Person will respond: "that's too bad, innocent people sometimes get hurt - lots of innocent Arthur Andersen employees lost their jobs, but the government still banned the firm from auditing public companies (effectively putting them out of business)"
1c. Penn State Apologist: "But the football players didn't do anything."
1d. Rational Person: "See 1b"
1e. Penn State Apologist: "But Football! Why are you blaming everyone rather than the PEOPLE responsible"
1f. Rational Person: "See 1b. And because institutions can create situations in which otherwise good people act in horrifying ways. The institution needs to be changed to avoid some other horrible situation being covered up. Also See 1b."

2. Penn State Apologist: "You're all just here to feel good about yourselves and form a lynch mob."

3. (Semi-)Rational Person: "We should just nuke Happy Valley from Orbit."

4. Someone will make a rape joke. Can't remember if they are supposed to be funny.

5. Penn State Apologist: "Y'all just don't understand Happy Valley and what football means to our precious snowflakes."

6. Someone Else: "Lawsuits will take of the program anyways."

7. Penn State Apologist: "Y'all just want to get back at the football players who bullied you in high school. Oh and, Too Big to Fail."

8. Someone Else: "Well this isn't really within the NCAA's jurisdiction anyway."

9. Yet Another Poster: "It's like the Catholic Church! And Michael Jackson!"
...

And we're done here.

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Soooo....when Yahweh leveled Sodom and Gomorrah, lots of innocent people died. When Yahweh flooded the Earth and killed everyone but Noah's family, lots of innocent people died. Which is it? Do you agree with your deity that some punishment of the innocent is a necessity or do you believe that your deity is a monster for punishing so many innocents?

There you go again. Changing the topic away from your misplaced anger.

Your thought is less coherent than that interview Sandusky gave to Bob Costas.

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: What are you talking about? First of all, I have no power to punish the truly guilty. Second, fine. Let's investigate Corbett and put him in jail, too. When did I say that I wanted the punishment to end after the death penalty and the statue being removed forever?

By punishing the students and business in the town for a crime they did not commit you are wronging them. The entire town should not suffer for the crimes of a few of it's citizens.

By punishing Sandusky we're wronging his family, employees, acquaintances, etc etc so let's not put him in jail either yada yada. Way to rehash the old stuff there.

Still waiting on that citation too.

Pentaxian: I would shutdown the football program for a few years. And then bring it back, BUT only as a Division III program. Good bye Syracuse, Hello Ithaca. Good bye OSU, hello Mount Union.

They might've had issues over the past few years taking on the likes of Mount Union and Whitewater.

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: Still waiting on that citation too.

You waiting impatiently for a citation is proof of misguided anger....vanity....something something.

gimmegimme: Your thought is less coherent than that interview Sandusky gave to Bob Costas.

Will you admit that the students make up the football team? And that the current students had no direct knowledge of the rapes?

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Your thought is less coherent than that interview Sandusky gave to Bob Costas.

Will you admit that the students make up the football team? And that the current students had no direct knowledge of the rapes?

As far as I understand it, that is the case. Will you admit that countless people on the planet were innocent when your God killed them all?

gimmegimme: As far as I understand it, that is the case.

Will you also admit that the canceling of the football program would most directly affect the students on the football team?

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: As far as I understand it, that is the case.

Will you also admit that the canceling of the football program would most directly affect the students on the football team?

Why didn't you answer the question I posed after answering yours?

FriarReb98: This. We are going to go through a round of ITG vs White Knights every single time we have this thread, but it doesn't change anything. It doesn't undo Sandusky's deeds, doesn't change the environment of a small town with a national football program, doesn't make society change one bit. Until the entire society of college football changes, it won't do anything.

Precisely. Taking down the statue is an important step toward that goal.

But killing the program isn't the answer, either.

Yes, actually, it is. In places that have shown they cannot be trusted with football, the answer is to take away football for a time, let them rebuild their culture without it, and then -when football no longer has the central place that makes this form of societal corruption possible- reintroduce it.

Millennium: FriarReb98: This. We are going to go through a round of ITG vs White Knights every single time we have this thread, but it doesn't change anything. It doesn't undo Sandusky's deeds, doesn't change the environment of a small town with a national football program, doesn't make society change one bit. Until the entire society of college football changes, it won't do anything.

Precisely. Taking down the statue is an important step toward that goal.

But killing the program isn't the answer, either.

Yes, actually, it is. In places that have shown they cannot be trusted with football, the answer is to take away football for a time, let them rebuild their culture without it, and then -when football no longer has the central place that makes this form of societal corruption possible- reintroduce it.

It's the same as when you find out your teenager can't be trusted with the family car because he was driving at an hour he wasn't supposed to. You take the car away for some period of time and let the kid figure out the proper use and place of a car in his life.

gimmegimme: Why didn't you answer the question I posed after answering yours?

Because you are assuming that I believe God controls all aspects of mankind, when in reality the Bible shows us that He doesn't.

Now, will you also admit that the canceling of the football program would most directly affect the students on the football team?

Dogberry: This just in: Universities are places of learning, not sports farm teams.

Where have you been for the last 25 years? Because, that's obviously not the case anymore. One thing to consider, football at Penn State funds every other program in the athletic department. Varsity and intramural funding for everything comes from the football program. Kill that and you kill the opportunities for actual students who like to also participate in athletic endeavors that don't include the word "pong".

The Hero tag will be for anyone that manages to block it from ever being removed.

Just take off a few letters and replace it with a plaque of the record. Then tell the rabid anti-Penn State folks to STFU and GBTW.

Marisyana: Cancer didn't kill Joe Paterno. Getting fired did. When it first happened I said to my husband "he'll be dead in six months." Only took two. If only he could see that statue coming down so he could croak all over again. Or get busted for perjury. Saint JoePa in cuffs would have been an amazing sight.

I have a friend who was a rabid Penn State football fan. She was a massive JoePa fan until everything started coming out. She burned all her Penn State stuff.

I cannot put into words how much I agree with this. If I had a lamp with a genie in it, this would be one of my three wishes. That farker got off easy. I want to see that vile, mean piece of shiat hauled away in handcuffs in disgrace. I want to see the guilty plea on perjury charges. I want to see the faces of the asshats that still consider this worthless vile man a hero, from the ESPN announcers to the dipshiats that rioted in his defense, when he confesses to covering up child rape to protect his team. When he confesses to buying off Sandusky. When he confesses to being a vile piece of shiat of a man.

At the very least, I hope I get to see the culture that led to this travesty be dismantled.

Outrageous Muff: In my opinion anyone that thinks tearing down a statue will solve anything is as guilty as the Board of Trustees.

Tearing down the statue does not, in and of itself, solve anything. It is, however, an absolutely vital step. If the football-centric culture that made this cover-up possible is to be eradicated -as it must- then as part of that, its idols must be destroyed. That's not enough by itself -the drug itself must also be taken away at least for a time, thus calls for the NCAA death penalty- but these things complement one another, and neither will work without the other.

Outrageous Muff: Will you also admit that the canceling of the football program would most directly affect the students on the football team?

Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear. That guy who shot up the movie theater last night, should we let him go becuase his mommy will feel bad when he goes to jail?

Outrageous Muff: gimmegimme: Why didn't you answer the question I posed after answering yours?

Because you are assuming that I believe God controls all aspects of mankind, when in reality the Bible shows us that He doesn't.

Now, will you also admit that the canceling of the football program would most directly affect the students on the football team?

Why would you worship a deity that isn't all-powerful? It's like marrying a woman you don't think is attractive or smart and isn't rich or good in bed.

Your questions are silly. I am very sorry that there will be some unintentional unpleasantness for the many folks in the Penn State community who had nothing to do with the serial child rape. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is. You and I are not allowed to buy ten packs of Sudafed at once because of crazy meth people. Too bad; shiat happens. I'm a Buckeye fan who was VERY angry with Terrelle Pryor and Jim Tressel and didn't spend months denying all of the shady stuff went down. Am I enduring some "pain" right now because of the actions of the few? Sure. Too bad. Shiat happens.

born_yesterday: I cannot put into words how much I agree with this. If I had a lamp with a genie in it, this would be one of my three wishes. That farker got off easy. I want to see that vile, mean piece of shiat hauled away in handcuffs in disgrace. I want to see the guilty plea on perjury charges. I want to see the faces of the asshats that still consider this worthless vile man a hero, from the ESPN announcers to the dipshiats that rioted in his defense, when he confesses to covering up child rape to protect his team. When he confesses to buying off Sandusky. When he confesses to being a vile piece of shiat of a man.

My wish would be to remove the rapes from history.


At the very least, I hope I get to see the culture that led to this travesty be dismantled.

I hope sanity prevails and that rabid folks like you are denied an unjust outcome.

scottydoesntknow: Follow-up: Dumbass students form human wall between bulldozer and statue.

And they don't deserve the hero tag, they deserve the obvious tag, since it's obvious it needed to come down. The hero tag would've been warranted had they performed these actions the second they were brough to attention.

I'd love to see a picture of that.

you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.

Aarontology: Di Atribe: Ricardo Klement: I heard they weren't tearing it down but moving it to the library where it can remind everyone to keep quiet.

Stealing this.

Same here. That was gold.

Also love the one another Farker did. Just turn it around so its looking the other way.

I laugh at any one that suggests the football program is going away. Do you know how much money that program generates? At the end of the day that's all that matters to the people making the decisions. They could care less about the victims or Joe PA.

The team will be terrible for at least a decade mostly due to poor recruitment. But it won't matter because Pennsylvanian people love their football and they will continue to fill Beaver $tadium every $eason. And even a bad team in the Big 10 can win 5 games.

There is 0% chance that this cash cow is going away.

factoryconnection: Honestly, if people are still carrying a torch for Joe, and assuming they know what the Freeh report said about his role in the coverup... I'm baffled. At the very least, it is just football and the guy's dead. He's not getting insulted, because he's dead. On a more detailed level, what we supposedly loved about JoePa is that he succeeded while doing everything by the book... with integrity.

The Freeh report says nothing not already known. It is merely an attempt to justify any subsequent historical revisionism.

sethstorm: you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.

Seriously. Freedom of speech sucks.

I really don't understand what cancelling the football program will accomplish. Is this punishment to make sure something like this never happens again or is it just revenge for one of the most terrible and disgusting and despicable acts to occur in recent memory? Of course things need to change but what does taking away football change? It will make things worse and polarize this issue even further and will have more and more people screaming that they're victims.

The beautiful thing about sports is that they can make us forget about all the awful shiat in the world, even if only for a little bit. Sports bring us together. If handled properly the PSU football team can help ease this situation and IMO they've gotten off to a pretty good start by changing the entire leadership structure and getting ride of all the "good ole boys" that ran the program for so long. The statue should come down no questions asked, Penn State should probably be kicked out of the B1G but eliminating the football program will only make a bad situation worse. Sandusky is going to die in prison, JoePa is dead, everybody else that had ever heard of this scandal/coverup should be locked away for as long as is allowable under the laws of the state of Pennsylvania but going after the whole football program just reeks of revenge.

If Jerry Sandusky was a Physics teacher and Joe was the dean of the science dept. would people be yelling for the entire science program to be shut down? No, because it wouldn't make any sense and would accomplish absolutely nothing.

gimmegimme: Your questions are silly. I am very sorry that there will be some unintentional unpleasantness for the many folks in the Penn State community who had nothing to do with the serial child rape. Unfortunately, that's just the way it is. You and I are not allowed to buy ten packs of Sudafed at once because of crazy meth people. Too bad; shiat happens. I'm a Buckeye fan who was VERY angry with Terrelle Pryor and Jim Tressel and didn't spend months denying all of the shady stuff went down. Am I enduring some "pain" right now because of the actions of the few? Sure. Too bad. Shiat happens.

The punishment for the crimes of Jim Tressel are being felt by those who did not commit the crimes. True justice was not done. All that was done to OSU, and what you are promoting for PSU, is to lay false blame and punishment on those who did nothing wrong. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Ricardo Klement: This is really good. It's only missing the part where all the rational people already want to string up the guilty, and it's only because the apologists even exist that these threads spend more than a breath or two even referring to Paterno
That's the first time I've ever heard a lynch mob described as "rational"

They should turn the statue so that it's looking the other way.

factoryconnection: God damn right he should have done more.

Yet you ask for something that is not justice, which has already been carried out multiple times over.

born_yesterday: Marisyana: Cancer didn't kill Joe Paterno. Getting fired did. When it first happened I said to my husband "he'll be dead in six months." Only took two. If only he could see that statue coming down so he could croak all over again. Or get busted for perjury. Saint JoePa in cuffs would have been an amazing sight.

I have a friend who was a rabid Penn State football fan. She was a massive JoePa fan until everything started coming out. She burned all her Penn State stuff.

I cannot put into words how much I agree with this. If I had a lamp with a genie in it, this would be one of my three wishes. That farker got off easy. I want to see that vile, mean piece of shiat hauled away in handcuffs in disgrace. I want to see the guilty plea on perjury charges. I want to see the faces of the asshats that still consider this worthless vile man a hero, from the ESPN announcers to the dipshiats that rioted in his defense, when he confesses to covering up child rape to protect his team. When he confesses to buying off Sandusky. When he confesses to being a vile piece of shiat of a man.

At the very least, I hope I get to see the culture that led to this travesty be dismantled.

You would use your wishes to get revenge instead of having the whole thing never happen? That kinda says alot about some peoples attitudes regarding this whole situation. This whole thing is about revenge now instead of righting wrongs and making sure that nothing like this happens again.

I had Snu Snu: I really don't understand what cancelling the football program will accomplish. Is this punishment to make sure something like this never happens again or is it just revenge for one of the most terrible and disgusting and despicable acts to occur in recent memory? Of course things need to change but what does taking away football change? It will make things worse and polarize this issue even further and will have more and more people screaming that they're victims.

The beautiful thing about sports is that they can make us forget about all the awful shiat in the world, even if only for a little bit. Sports bring us together. If handled properly the PSU football team can help ease this situation and IMO they've gotten off to a pretty good start by changing the entire leadership structure and getting ride of all the "good ole boys" that ran the program for so long. The statue should come down no questions asked, Penn State should probably be kicked out of the B1G but eliminating the football program will only make a bad situation worse. Sandusky is going to die in prison, JoePa is dead, everybody else that had ever heard of this scandal/coverup should be locked away for as long as is allowable under the laws of the state of Pennsylvania but going after the whole football program just reeks of revenge.

If Jerry Sandusky was a Physics teacher and Joe was the dean of the science dept. would people be yelling for the entire science program to be shut down? No, because it wouldn't make any sense and would accomplish absolutely nothing.

I tend to think there would be MASSIVE restructuring of the science department in that case and I'm willing to bet there would be no classes in that department for a little while. Just like people are suggesting that Penn State football take a time out until they can restructure.

drivingsouth: They should turn the statue so that it's looking the other way.

I heard they were moving it to the library to remind people to be silent

scottydoesntknow: Follow-up: Dumbass students form human wall between bulldozer and statue.

And they don't deserve the hero tag, they deserve the obvious tag, since it's obvious it needed to come down. The hero tag would've been warranted had they performed these actions the second they were brough to attention.

That's an outsider's perspective, though. To those of us outside the cult of Paterno, this stuff is obvious. But we're talking about people who were in the thick of it all, raised or inculcated into this form of hero-worship. They face perhaps worse than even the average cult member, because the risk of mutiny and revolt is very real here. In that kind of context, this is a decision that would indeed have been very difficult to make. In the face of enormous pressure to leave the statue up, there are people fighting to do the right thing. To my mind, that is heroic, in its own way.

At the very least, it should be strongly encouraged. Let the tag stand, and the statue fall.

gimmegimme: sethstorm: you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.

Seriously. Freedom of speech sucks.

Except that it doesn't apply in that venue.

I had Snu Snu: If Jerry Sandusky was a Physics teacher and Joe was the dean of the science dept. would people be yelling for the entire science program to be shut down? No, because it wouldn't make any sense and would accomplish absolutely nothing.

If Sandusky had been a physics prof, he'd have been fired and prosecuted back in the 90's. This only occurred because football is such a big damn deal at Penn State. Shutting down the program for a year or two will hopefully demonstrate that Penn State is supposed to be a university with a football program attached, not a football program with an afterthought of a university.

Leave it to educate your students on what happens when an organization turns a manager into a god.

gimmegimme: sethstorm: you have pee hands: Eh. They'll be allowed to transfer to somewhere where people won't come to their games dressed as Pedobear

Disruptive spectators that dress up in such can always be removed by security, something that should happen more often.

Seriously. Freedom of speech sucks.

The People's Temple of Saint Joe will broach no criticism of their religion.