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(Telegraph)   To public befuddlement of Japanese doctors, 36 percent of Fukushima children found to have abnormal thyroid growths. "We do not know the cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation"   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 58
    More: Scary, Fukushima, Japanese, radiologists, protective gear, nuclear plant  
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2187 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 Jul 2012 at 9:26 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-20 01:38:30 AM
Time to start drinking in the mornings.
 
2012-07-20 04:31:31 AM
Well, as long as there's no need to panic. That's the important thing...

everybody stay calm
 
2012-07-20 07:11:01 AM
"We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?
 
2012-07-20 08:57:40 AM

GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?


The gov't said it was safe Gat. Be a good citizen and move along.

WTF? Radiation has already been detected in tuna and they're trying to say it's not from the nuclear plant.

Radiation travels very slowly right?
 
2012-07-20 09:20:19 AM

AbbeySomeone: GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?

The gov't said it was safe Gat. Be a good citizen and move along.

WTF? Radiation has already been detected in tuna and they're trying to say it's not from the nuclear plant.

Radiation travels very slowly right?


Radiation travels as quickly as the medium it is moving in carries it.
 
2012-07-20 09:33:51 AM

GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?



I think the second half of that quote is relevant. "This is an early test and we will only see the effects of radiation exposure after four or five years."

It's not that the radiation is harmless, it's that THAT cancer shouldn't be seen for a couple years. This cancer (or possible cancer) would have to have been caused by something from before the melt down. Perhaps there was another incident that was covered up?
 
2012-07-20 09:35:14 AM

GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?


But see, they're using climate denialism logic. Just like for them there's no way man could have caused the recent spike in global temperatures, there's no way nuclear fallout could have given these kids huge thyroids.
 
2012-07-20 09:37:04 AM
FTA "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said. "This is an early test and we will only see the effects of radiation exposure after four or five years."

while this is a true statement for adults, little is known about radiation effects on children. Children have a lot more dividing cells than adults, so it may effect them more quickly.


/medical physicist
 
2012-07-20 09:38:59 AM
They seem to think the effects of radiation wouldn't present this quickly, hence not believing that can be the cause.

I wonder to what degree severe stress can affect the thyroid?
 
2012-07-20 09:42:16 AM
ARISE CHICKEN ARISE!
 
2012-07-20 09:43:19 AM
They're not saying that the Fukushima disaster won't cause cancer in children but that the thyroid problems they're seeing don't match up with what we know about cancer and radiation. Cancer caused by Fukushima shouldn't start showing up for a couple of years and these kids were probably exposed to something else before the disaster.
 
2012-07-20 09:44:29 AM
Quickly, someone summon the Fark nuclear industry apologists. Something brilliant must be done immediatly to counter any unfortunate and clearly inappropriate association between bad things and nuclear power. Nuclear power is good and anyone who says otherwise must be smited. These thyroid conditions must be caused by Flintstone Vitamins or pats on the head by grandma. Going on break now.
 
2012-07-20 09:48:56 AM

stuhayes2010: /medical physicist



I didn't realize that was a profession. What does that job entail? Right now I image someone working on making a real life version of the Hulk.
 
2012-07-20 09:49:09 AM
Well that's what happens when you let tentacle monsters do all your breeding for you.
 
2012-07-20 09:53:07 AM

GAT_00: Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be?


My first guess would be the large dose of iodine in the potassium iodide pills that people gave their children to protect them from the radioactive contamination, but I haven't done any research to figure out how plausible this is.
 
2012-07-20 09:55:01 AM

Ivo Shandor: GAT_00: Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be?

My first guess would be the large dose of iodine in the potassium iodide pills that people gave their children to protect them from the radioactive contamination, but I haven't done any research to figure out how plausible this is.


There might also be an outside factor which made it possible for the kids to get these Cancers so QUICKLY after the disaster.
 
2012-07-20 09:55:07 AM
This could also be a difference in diagnosis.

Very few people have thyroid nodules that can be felt by physical examination (using hands), but almost one out of three have small nodules (of the sort described in the article) if they use ultrasound to check.
 
2012-07-20 09:55:10 AM

pissnmoan: Quickly, someone summon the Fark nuclear industry apologists. Something brilliant must be done immediatly to counter any unfortunate and clearly inappropriate association between bad things and nuclear power. Nuclear power is good and anyone who says otherwise must be smited. These thyroid conditions must be caused by Flintstone Vitamins or pats on the head by grandma. Going on break now.


Thank god you're here to pre-emptively frame the debate as a false choice between "NUCLEAR GOOD" and "NUCLEAR BAD". Nuance and accurate understanding are the real enemies!
 
2012-07-20 10:02:47 AM
You'd think that if any medical community would be privy to the effects of radiation, it would be the Japanese.
 
2012-07-20 10:04:41 AM
Nuance and accurate understanding are laudable goals. Let us begin by clarifying for the Fark public that the article calls these thyroid abnormalities cysts and nodules and quite specifically declines to call them cancerous. Thryoid cysts and nodules are generally considered pre-cancerous conditions. This cautious use of terminology doesn't rule out the possibility of cancer developing in a few or several years. This picture does seem to fit nicely with the article statement that we will see the effects of exposure in four or five years.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-20 10:07:13 AM
Isn't the point of taking potassium iodide tablets after a nuclear accident to protect the thyroid from iodine 131? Wasn't there a lot of thyroid cancer after Hiroshima and Chernobyl?
 
2012-07-20 10:08:51 AM
Don't worry guys, I'm hear to figure this out. Now what is a thyroid?
 
2012-07-20 10:13:08 AM

vpb: Isn't the point of taking potassium iodide tablets after a nuclear accident to protect the thyroid from iodine 131? Wasn't there a lot of thyroid cancer after Hiroshima and Chernobyl?


Yeah. That is learned, I think, from the Windscale fire in England in the 50s. Kids drank milk from irradiated cows, got thyroid cancer. Potassium iodine is taken to keep the thyroid from absorbing the radioactive iodine, because the thyroid can only absorb so much at a time.
 
2012-07-20 10:14:22 AM
As someone with a form of thyroid cancer, I am NOT getting a kick...
 
2012-07-20 10:25:49 AM

GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?


Godzilla.
 
2012-07-20 10:40:36 AM

Dog Welder: GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?

Godzilla.




i112.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-20 10:42:31 AM

SpaceButler: Nuance and accurate understanding are the real enemies!


Good takedown. What always amuses me about reflexive nuke-haters is that they act like the choice is (1) nuke power (2) no nuke power. In reality, when you choose (2) people still want electric power, and it will most likely be from shiat like coal fired plants, which create smog, acid rain, and more radioactivity than nuclear. Ya, rly. I wish wind, solar, and geo could pick up the slack but it just isn't feasible yet.
 
2012-07-20 10:51:45 AM

pissnmoan: Quickly, someone summon the Fark nuclear industry apologists. Something brilliant must be done immediatly to counter any unfortunate and clearly inappropriate association between bad things and nuclear power. Nuclear power is good and anyone who says otherwise must be smited. These thyroid conditions must be caused by Flintstone Vitamins or pats on the head by grandma. Going on break now.


Dude, BOTH side apologists are already here. Chill out.
 
2012-07-20 11:01:32 AM

Bacontastesgood: more radioactivity than nuclear.


Coal power plants only release more radioactivity then a nuclear plant when the nuclear plant works correctly.

If a coal power plant burns to the ground, it will not release much radiation.

When a nuclear plant burns to the ground. You're going to have a very bad century.
 
2012-07-20 11:01:42 AM

fracto73: stuhayes2010: /medical physicist


I didn't realize that was a profession. What does that job entail? Right now I image someone working on making a real life version of the Hulk.


Basically that is it. Don't get me angry.

Actually, I treat cancer with radiation.
 
2012-07-20 11:15:01 AM

stuhayes2010: fracto73: stuhayes2010: /medical physicist


I didn't realize that was a profession. What does that job entail? Right now I image someone working on making a real life version of the Hulk.

Basically that is it. Don't get me angry.

Actually, I treat cancer with radiation.


The ultimate irony of that professions is that the thing that can cause thyroid cancer, radioactive iodine, is also used to treat it. The distaffbopper had thyroid cancer a few years back, and the littlebopper and I had to stay away from her for a weekend, and limit contact for a week or two, while she was radioactive.
 
2012-07-20 11:15:46 AM

stuhayes2010: Actually, I treat cancer with radiation.


So that's an oncologist, right?

Do you just use "medical physicist" cuz it brings in the chicks?
 
Zel
2012-07-20 11:38:36 AM

jakomo002: stuhayes2010: Actually, I treat cancer with radiation.

So that's an oncologist, right?

Do you just use "medical physicist" cuz it brings in the chicks?


Oncology is the study of cancer. Medical physics is the study of physics in medicine. I had a friend (in the electrical engineering department) who se thesis was about the dispersion of radiation when getting xray mammograms. Apparently the xrays bounce off bone and ricochet all over the damn place, so using really fancy simulations they could devise a safer angle and power spectrum to get the required information. That's physics, not oncology.
 
2012-07-20 11:45:29 AM

jakomo002: stuhayes2010: Actually, I treat cancer with radiation.

So that's an oncologist, right?

Do you just use "medical physicist" cuz it brings in the chicks?


Oncologists don't know operate and maintain the million dollar machines used for treatment, You need special techs for that. Smart well paid techs. They're not as well-paid as oncologists though, ergo medical physicist should bring in far fewer chicks.
 
2012-07-20 12:56:04 PM
Quick, everybody fail to read the last sentence-paragraph of the article where the answer to the "mystery" is!!!
 
2012-07-20 01:35:54 PM

fracto73: GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?


I think the second half of that quote is relevant. "This is an early test and we will only see the effects of radiation exposure after four or five years."

It's not that the radiation is harmless, it's that THAT cancer shouldn't be seen for a couple years. This cancer (or possible cancer) would have to have been caused by something from before the melt down. Perhaps there was another incident that was covered up?


That's what I was thinking. After everything we saw going on over there, I really believe that it's a strong possibility.
 
2012-07-20 01:39:22 PM
You'd think that if any medical community would be privy to the effects of radiation, it would be the Japanese.

Part of the problem may be cultural. Survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and their decedents are treated as second class citizens. Saying that these kids have cancer from radiation could mean that they would join that population. Not something to be said lightly.
 
2012-07-20 01:57:17 PM

GAT_00: AbbeySomeone: GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?

The gov't said it was safe Gat. Be a good citizen and move along.

WTF? Radiation has already been detected in tuna and they're trying to say it's not from the nuclear plant.

Radiation travels very slowly right?

Radiation travels as quickly as the medium it is moving in carries it.


Depends on what kind of radiation, there are spectrographs that can detect nuclear events in real time anywhere in the world. Depending on what kind of radiation you have different distances and speeds its traveling.
 
2012-07-20 02:19:07 PM
"We do not know the cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation"


"Well, doc, I know this is crazy and all... but hear me out here: What if it IS due to the effects of radiation? What if it is? Hmmmnnn? I mean, *I* know how insane that is, and *YOU* know how insane that is... but just.... humor me. Let's just leave that open for further consideration, OK?"
 
2012-07-20 02:19:14 PM
I always had assumed Japan would be pretty hardcore about their nuclear industry, you know, considering...

/turns out notsomuch
 
2012-07-20 02:39:15 PM

AbbeySomeone: Radiation travels very slowly right?


That would explain why it's showing up in the United States and not Korea, China and Russia.
 
2012-07-20 03:11:02 PM

GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?


I suppose it is possible it could have been some OTHER toxin or reaction caused by the GIANT FARKING TSUNAMI THAT BROKE THE NUKE PLANT TO BEGIN WITH. It seems within the realm of possibility to me that contamination of drinking water or food would have been highly likely in the aftermath of such a large natural disaster.

I'm not saying that it wasn't radiation, but you are jumping to conclusions. Let's let the science play out, they don't even know what the growths are, except that they say it is NOT cancer.

/See, there is a mat, with a bunch of conclusions on different squares...and you jump to them!
 
2012-07-20 03:41:22 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?

I suppose it is possible it could have been some OTHER toxin or reaction caused by the GIANT FARKING TSUNAMI THAT BROKE THE NUKE PLANT TO BEGIN WITH. It seems within the realm of possibility to me that contamination of drinking water or food would have been highly likely in the aftermath of such a large natural disaster.

I'm not saying that it wasn't radiation, but you are jumping to conclusions. Let's let the science play out, they don't even know what the growths are, except that they say it is NOT cancer.

/See, there is a mat, with a bunch of conclusions on different squares...and you jump to them!


At first I was all NUH UH. Then I googled it. And damn, you might be right.
That being said, Japan has had tsunamis before, and surely water has been contaminated exactly like this before. Do they all have this problem, or is this a unique situation?

But also. There is no reason to discount radiation causing these thyroid problems. It is a fact that radiation has serious negative effects on the thyroid. As silly as it was, there was a reason people in the US went nuts buying potassium iodide pills.
 
2012-07-20 04:37:09 PM

seniorgato: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: GAT_00: "We do not know that cause of this, but it is hard to believe that is due to the effects of radiation," she said.

Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be? A population wide event that wasn't seen before the totally safe nuclear plant spilled radiation all over the landscape and you refused to evacuate people out of some retarded sense of honor. What the hell else could give one child in three the start of possibly cancerous tumors?

I suppose it is possible it could have been some OTHER toxin or reaction caused by the GIANT FARKING TSUNAMI THAT BROKE THE NUKE PLANT TO BEGIN WITH. It seems within the realm of possibility to me that contamination of drinking water or food would have been highly likely in the aftermath of such a large natural disaster.

I'm not saying that it wasn't radiation, but you are jumping to conclusions. Let's let the science play out, they don't even know what the growths are, except that they say it is NOT cancer.

/See, there is a mat, with a bunch of conclusions on different squares...and you jump to them!

At first I was all NUH UH. Then I googled it. And damn, you might be right.
That being said, Japan has had tsunamis before, and surely water has been contaminated exactly like this before. Do they all have this problem, or is this a unique situation?

But also. There is no reason to discount radiation causing these thyroid problems. It is a fact that radiation has serious negative effects on the thyroid. As silly as it was, there was a reason people in the US went nuts buying potassium iodide pills.



The doctors know that radiation has harmful effects. They also know how long those effects take to show up. They aren't saying that the radiation didn't/won't cause any problems, they are saying that the timing is off. If people are sure that it was radiation they should look a couple years before the tsunami to see if anything shady happened.
 
2012-07-20 04:49:04 PM
The other solution is that 36% of the population normally has such cysts and small growths and that they are just being detected because everybody is checking out these kids thyroids due to possible radiation exposure.

This theory could be correct as benign nodules can result from either iodine deficiency or excess. The Japanese consume way more iodine than any other ethnic group (there is a ton of it in seaweed), so its possible that these are nodules from having an iodine rich diet and will simply regress as the kids get older. So its entirely possible that pretty much every japanese child (due to diet) has some sort of cyst/nodule and that what they are finding is totally benign.
 
2012-07-20 04:53:34 PM

The_Homeless_Guy: The other solution is that 36% of the population normally has such cysts and small growths and that they are just being detected because everybody is checking out these kids thyroids due to possible radiation exposure.

This theory could be correct as benign nodules can result from either iodine deficiency or excess. The Japanese consume way more iodine than any other ethnic group (there is a ton of it in seaweed), so its possible that these are nodules from having an iodine rich diet and will simply regress as the kids get older. So its entirely possible that pretty much every japanese child (due to diet) has some sort of cyst/nodule and that what they are finding is totally benign.


oh and another likely possibility is that panic stricken japanese mothers have been loading their kids up with iodine pills. In fact, now that I think of it, I'm willing to bet that that might be the reason.
 
2012-07-20 06:15:29 PM
After seeing how TEPCO and the government has handled this disaster up to now, I question if the tsunami event was the first time radioactivity was released. If TEPCO or the Japanese government told me it was night, I'd go outside and look.
 
2012-07-20 07:53:47 PM
The_Homeless_Guy

Now here is a Farker who is on to something. I'll still bet a six pack of your favorite suds on the radiation angle over the iodine overload angle. Look me up in five years or so and we'll review the research. And I'll pay up.
 
2012-07-20 09:38:20 PM

Ivo Shandor: GAT_00: Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be?

My first guess would be the large dose of iodine in the potassium iodide pills that people gave their children to protect them from the radioactive contamination, but I haven't done any research to figure out how plausible this is.


Bingo. They may have kept giving the pills for weeks to months, not realizing the megadoses could have side effects over time.
 
2012-07-20 09:44:56 PM

Ivo Shandor: GAT_00: Uh huh. Let me ask you this: what else COULD it be?

My first guess would be the large dose of iodine in the potassium iodide pills that people gave their children to protect them from the radioactive contamination, but I haven't done any research to figure out how plausible this is.


I didn't see your post before I posted mine. I agree, it is the simplest explanation. It's quite possible as thyroid goiters/nodules follow a u-shaped curve (they happen with too little and too much). There is actually a fair amount of research being done with excessive iodine in chinese children as they have recently iodized their salt and many areas are now consuming too much iodine.
 
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