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(Reuters)   Large banks to the world economy: "Hey, bro. Can we give you, like, some cash and you drop this whole Libor thing?" Richest nations: "We know how important you are. Just write a number you can afford. We love you"   (in.reuters.com) divider line 45
    More: Obvious, Libor, Barclays plc, New York Federal Reserve Bank, u.s. treasury secretary  
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3352 clicks; posted to Business » on 20 Jul 2012 at 11:28 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



45 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-07-20 10:26:27 AM
this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.
 
2012-07-20 10:42:42 AM

Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.


Look over there! It's a welfare queen buying cigarettes!
 
2012-07-20 10:49:15 AM
How about jail? Does jail work for you?

Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.


Yes.
 
2012-07-20 11:24:08 AM
i'd take a pass on any jail sentences, but in trade it would have to be completely legal to hit anyone who continues to repeat 'deregulate, the market will police itself' in the face with dog shiat for at least the next 17 months.

why 17? because.
 
2012-07-20 11:42:07 AM

heap: i'd take a pass on any jail sentences, but in trade it would have to be completely legal to hit anyone who continues to repeat 'deregulate, the market will police itself' in the face with dog shiat for at least the next 17 months.

why 17? because.


But there were already regulations against this.. It was regulated.. it didn't stop.

We have strict laws against murder too... I guess we need more.
 
2012-07-20 11:43:13 AM
A 10%-20% reduction in the principal for all mortgages they hold would probably be a good start.
 
2012-07-20 11:43:20 AM

Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.


Like most threads in the Business tab.

[ sad ]
 
2012-07-20 11:44:11 AM

MugzyBrown: But there were already regulations against this.. It was regulated.. it didn't stop.


yes, the market will police itself.


*splat*
 
2012-07-20 11:49:49 AM
"The sources told Reuters that none of the banks involved now want to be second in line for fear that they will get similarly hostile treatment from politicians and the public. Bank discussions about a group settlement initially took place before the Barclays agreement, and picked back up in the aftermath."

Can't wait for the $10 million settlement and a "please don't do it again, pinky swear?" reprimanding.
 
2012-07-20 11:52:48 AM
weknowmemes.com
 
2012-07-20 11:53:23 AM

MugzyBrown: But there were already regulations against this.. It was regulated.. it didn't stop.


Bullshiat.
If there were regulations in place, it would have been harder to do than sending an e-mail to your bro at the next bank.
As it is, these guys conspired to circumvent regulation, which is never any reason to throw out a regulation.
 
2012-07-20 12:01:12 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: Bullshiat.
If there were regulations in place, it would have been harder to do than sending an e-mail to your bro at the next bank.
As it is, these guys conspired to circumvent regulation, which is never any reason to throw out a regulation.


Umm why would it be harder? There are tons of regulations in place for all sorts of businesses. They're not hard to break.

People breaks all sorts of laws and regulations every day. So you punish the people who break them
 
2012-07-20 12:02:37 PM
This, this is insane if they get away with this with a group settlement. I can't believe there isn't a prosecutor that wants to make it famous who wouldn't publicly go after these guys. Seems like a good way to start a political career.
 
2012-07-20 12:11:16 PM

MugzyBrown: heap: i'd take a pass on any jail sentences, but in trade it would have to be completely legal to hit anyone who continues to repeat 'deregulate, the market will police itself' in the face with dog shiat for at least the next 17 months.

why 17? because.

But there were already regulations against this.. It was regulated.. it didn't stop.

We have strict laws against murder too... I guess we need more.


"We", as in the US, have regulations against this. but the LIBOR rate is set in the UK.

it does not mean that the US cannot prosecute, but it is very complicated and could take years for a case to even make it to court.
 
2012-07-20 12:22:27 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: As it is, these guys conspired to circumvent regulation,


There never was a barrier or regulation that stopped member banks from colluding.
It was assumed that they would never do what they did.

Cities, governments, and other financial institutions were harmed the most by this scam.
These groups were the "market" that this scam harmed.
And the logic for self-regulation is that the "market" would sort this out and fine them into oblivion.

Governments are opting for minor punishments.
Cities are just trying to get out of the bad deals that resulted from rigging LIBOR.
Financial Institutions are going to court but its a slow process.
So it looks like most of the "market" is either going to sort this out slowly or barely at all.

And that is more or less why scams will continue, the punishment is almost non-existent.
 
2012-07-20 12:26:21 PM

doyner: Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.

Look over there! It's a welfare queen buying cigarettes!


If the USA were a ship, liberals and moderates would be trying to repair the 100-foot long hull breach while conservatives rush to clean up a glass of water that got knocked over in the dining room.
 
2012-07-20 12:32:31 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: MugzyBrown: But there were already regulations against this.. It was regulated.. it didn't stop.

Bullshiat.
If there were regulations in place, it would have been harder to do than sending an e-mail to your bro at the next bank.
As it is, these guys conspired to circumvent regulation, which is never any reason to throw out a regulation.


The problem is that LIBOR asks banks to guess what rate they could borrow at. If they haven't needed to borrow (or haven't been able to - see credit freeze during the GFC), they're guessing. It's a hell of a lot easier to convince someone to fudge a guess than to get them to flat-out lie about a specific number. And it's pretty hard to regulate a guess.

The whole LIBOR system should be thrown out because it's just asking for trouble. Other countries use better systems, where you can't easily fudge a guess. The two common variations are:
- ask banks to report on actual trades that have happened that morning (drawback is that during a credit freeze there is no reference rate at all because no-one is lending), or
- ask banks to report what they're willing to lend at ... and make it binding up to a certain cash value (have to put a max on it, because you don't want a bank accidently low-balling the market and being forced to lend billions at a low-rate.)
 
2012-07-20 12:34:33 PM

HMS_Blinkin: If the USA were a ship, liberals and moderates would be trying to repair the 100-foot long hull breach while conservatives rush to clean up a glass of water that got knocked over in the dining room.


And the media would report:
"Democrats and Republicans Can't Reach Resolution on The Dining Room Disaster!"
 
2012-07-20 12:39:27 PM
This is all Obama's fault... just like the crash of 2008.
 
2012-07-20 12:40:10 PM

dumbobruni: "We", as in the US, have regulations against this. but the LIBOR rate is set in the UK.

Except that there were American banks involved in the collusion who profited by it at the expense of American clients.

I need tyo buy stock in a pitchfork company.
 
2012-07-20 12:40:28 PM

HMS_Blinkin: If the USA were a ship, liberals and moderates would be trying to repair the 100-foot long hull breach while conservatives rush to clean up a glass of water that got knocked over in the dining room.


No, the conservatives would be complaining that nothing is being done all the water on the floor, while alternately battering the damaged hull with dining room furniture, in attempt to tear it open even further.
 
2012-07-20 12:50:35 PM

Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.


Why can't governments just create constitutional ammendments of capital punishment for massive financial crimes?
 
2012-07-20 12:55:51 PM

Dr. Goldshnoz: Why can't governments just create constitutional ammendments of capital punishment for massive financial crimes?


Well in some instances the governments are part of financial crimes.

In the case of LIBOR, Whitehall (The British Government) encouraged the banks to rigg rates lower.

See this for more detail:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/libor-banking-sca n dal-deepens-barclays-releases-damning-email-implicates-british-governm ent-20120704
 
2012-07-20 01:02:17 PM

Dr. Goldshnoz: Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.

Why can't governments just create constitutional ammendments of capital punishment for massive financial crimes?


Maybe we can just put the corporations in jail -- solitary confinement -- since they're people too.
 
2012-07-20 01:09:49 PM

doyner: dumbobruni: "We", as in the US, have regulations against this. but the LIBOR rate is set in the UK.

Except that there were American banks involved in the collusion who profited by it at the expense of American clients.


How did LIBOR-based rates end up so common in the US (and Canada and Switzerland who also use LIBOR reference rates)? Why the fark are your mortgage rates, municipal-bonds, etc., based on a number produced by the British Bankers Association? How on earth did that become the standard?

Here in Oz, most stuff uses the Aussie version of the libor (which is based on actual trades, so not open to manipulation). Some companies will have had deals based on LIBOR, but they'd mostly be sophisticated exchange-rate hedges for multi-national companies ... the standard mortgage or credit card rate is based on the Aussie reference rate.
 
2012-07-20 01:10:55 PM
I'm far too drunk to comment coherently on this.

Fark the banks.

That is all. And really, that's what it boils down to. FARK them. They have no appreciation for the actual cash, wealth, and material lives they're handling. Fark them dry. It's just a big competition over numbers in a column to them, and whoever has the biggest numbers wins. This deal is a shiatty idea. "share the pain of negative publicity", no, they don't deserve that, they've ruined too many lives, too many dreams.

Every large "too big to fail" bank needs to fail. Hard.
 
2012-07-20 01:25:41 PM
"Settlement" .... Of what?

They got caught, so the bigger crooks will now "legally" get some of their stuff, which they don't need and won't use to help anyone who does.
 
2012-07-20 01:27:18 PM

LiquidSky: How did LIBOR-based rates end up so common in the US (and Canada and Switzerland who also use LIBOR reference rates)? Why the fark are your mortgage rates, municipal-bonds, etc., based on a number produced by the British Bankers Association? How on earth did that become the standard?

Kinda like the price of oil being relatively the same across the world. Capital is global.
 
2012-07-20 01:41:34 PM

doyner: dumbobruni: "We", as in the US, have regulations against this. but the LIBOR rate is set in the UK.

Except that there were American banks involved in the collusion who profited by it at the expense of American clients.

I need tyo buy stock in a pitchfork company.


if the UK-based staff of Citi or JPM were manipulating the rates, its still out of jurisdiction of US laws.

collussion has still yet to be proven, but I guess you're the type that doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty".

the banks named in the collusion probe so far are not American banks either.
 
2012-07-20 01:56:28 PM
And the hits just keep on a coming....

HSBC's Money Laundering Lapses, By the Numbers

15 billion: Total value of U.S. dollar bills (as in paper money) the bank accepted as part of bulk-cash transactions from foreign HSBC banks during that period, with no anti money-laundering controls.
 
2012-07-20 01:59:01 PM

dumbobruni: doyner: dumbobruni: "We", as in the US, have regulations against this. but the LIBOR rate is set in the UK.

Except that there were American banks involved in the collusion who profited by it at the expense of American clients.

I need tyo buy stock in a pitchfork company.

if the UK-based staff of Citi or JPM were manipulating the rates, its still out of jurisdiction of US laws.

collussion has still yet to be proven, but I guess you're the type that doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty".

the banks named in the collusion probe so far are not American banks either.


Citigroup Manipulated Libor More Than Any Other U.S. Bank: Reports
 
2012-07-20 02:00:53 PM

TheGreatGazoo: A 10%-20% reduction in the principal for all mortgages they hold would probably be a good start.


Funny thing, they'd claim they don't hold any mortgages, and they'd be right.
 
2012-07-20 02:26:44 PM

neversubmit: dumbobruni: doyner: dumbobruni: "We", as in the US, have regulations against this. but the LIBOR rate is set in the UK.

Except that there were American banks involved in the collusion who profited by it at the expense of American clients.

I need tyo buy stock in a pitchfork company.

if the UK-based staff of Citi or JPM were manipulating the rates, its still out of jurisdiction of US laws.

collussion has still yet to be proven, but I guess you're the type that doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty".

the banks named in the collusion probe so far are not American banks either.

Citigroup Manipulated Libor More Than Any Other U.S. Bank: Reports


doyner: dumbobruni: if the UK-based staff of Citi or JPM were manipulating the rates, its still out of jurisdiction of US laws.

If they're incorporated as a US company, are publically owned and traded in the US, and commit fraud, it is entirely within US juristiction.

collussion has still yet to be proven, but I guess you're the type that doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty".

I'm not a court of law so who gives a rat's ass? And thak you for telling me what "type" of person I am and what I believe. I needed that.

the banks named in the collusion probe so far are not American banks either.

Ok. And? Only what is announced is probed? Only what is probed is suspect?


the US incorporated Citigroup is not the same as the UK incorporated Citigroup. different legal entities entirely, and thus different regulations apply.

and your prosecution point is for collusion, not the manipulation as cited in your link. and from your link:

Why Citi understated its rate matters. In Barclays' case, it was clear that traders at the bank were trying to profit from the manipulation. But if Citi lied solely to make it look better, law professor John Coffee of Columbia says that may not be enough to prove it was trying to manipulate Libor.

"Criminal prosecutors are unlikely to go after a bank that was just trying to make itself look good," says Coffee.


you are suspect of American banks on colluding on Libor, fine. But your link there isn't helping you.

the collusion probe itself that you are getting into a tizzy over? the HuffPo writer is calling it a "cartel of Libor manipulators", but the FT link provided only mentions the european swap rate....which isn't Libor.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a2b585fa-d0ff-11e1-8957-00144feabdc0.html#a x zz213qnUDWP
 
2012-07-20 03:03:00 PM
Is it me or does the whole financial system seem more and more like a gigantic shell game where those in positions of responsibility have these mountains of cash, which may or may not be imaginary, that they don't want to give up too much of - so they treat their friends very nicely.

While those of us that don't have mountains locked away in a gigantic bank marked with a '$' struggle along and are expected to simply shut up because, well hey - we're rich, you're not.

These stories where banks and other companies are profoundly undermining the public trust (and in cases like these - not only their own country, but ALL countries that rely on the interconnected financial system) is demonstrating the severe breakdown of the concept of the rule of law and societal order that seems to be leading to nowhere else but another dark age.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
 
2012-07-20 04:06:28 PM
I am starting to think its us that are the idiots for thinking the world really doesnt work like this, maybe they will at least have the decency to put on a show like they did for the oil execs...
 
2012-07-20 04:17:09 PM
i188.photobucket.com

More shiny money won't mean shiat when everything goes to hell. We need to get rid of these radical regressionists who want to put us into a dark age of subservience.
 
2012-07-20 04:57:15 PM

HMS_Blinkin: doyner: Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.

Look over there! It's a welfare queen buying cigarettes!

If the USA were a ship, liberals and moderates would be trying to repair the 100-foot long hull breach while conservatives and liberals rush to clean up a blame each other for a glass of water that got knocked over in the dining room.


/so vote republican
//seriously though, extremes on both sides can suck a dick.
 
2012-07-20 05:08:46 PM
So there is a conspiracy?

Rich people want you dead.
 
2012-07-20 08:34:54 PM

doyner: Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.

Look over there! It's a welfare drag queen illegal immigrant buying cigarettes while having an abortion!


/ftfy
 
2012-07-20 08:37:22 PM

puffy999: doyner: Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.

Look over there! It's a welfare drag queen illegal immigrant buying cigarettes while having an abortion and an anchor baby at the same time!

/ftfy


/ftfm
 
2012-07-20 10:47:05 PM

MugzyBrown: heap: i'd take a pass on any jail sentences, but in trade it would have to be completely legal to hit anyone who continues to repeat 'deregulate, the market will police itself' in the face with dog shiat for at least the next 17 months.

why 17? because.

But there were already regulations against this.. It was regulated.. it didn't stop.

We have strict laws against murder too... I guess we need more
.


Or.... now stay with me on this... maybe, just MAYBE, if there were actual prosecutions and appropriate penalties, including serious jail time for high ranking bank officials, there would be a bit more of a deterrent towards this type of behavior. Maybe just giving them a fine that sounds really big to normal people but is a tiny fraction of the amount they made through bad behavior isn't sufficient to prevent this malfeasance. I know it sounds crazy, but it just might work!

//if I could have murdered my ex-wife and gotten off with a fine that was a few hours to a few days of my yearly income and a blow job from congress instead of facing life in prison or lethal injection, I could have saved a ton of money on my divorce
 
2012-07-21 01:41:31 AM

doyner: LiquidSky: How did LIBOR-based rates end up so common in the US (and Canada and Switzerland who also use LIBOR reference rates)? Why the fark are your mortgage rates, municipal-bonds, etc., based on a number produced by the British Bankers Association? How on earth did that become the standard?

Kinda like the price of oil being relatively the same across the world. Capital is global.


Actually, oil contracts fit my side of the argument. The oil price I see on the nightly news is usually the price used in the US (West Texas Intermediate). But the price of petrol at my local station depends on a Singapore benchmark, because that's where the fuel actually came from.

They don't use WTI, just like our mortgages etc aren't based on LIBOR but on a local benchmark rate. For both oil and interest rates, the various regional benchmarks do tend to correlate, but the one that is actually used in contracts is market/region specific.

So I still don't get why certain countries would start using a different region's benchmarks en masse when there are perfectly fine local benchmarks. (I specifically mean for comparatively simple things like mortgages ... I understand why highly sophisticated or international deals would use LIBOR.)
 
2012-07-21 09:16:19 AM

puffy999: puffy999: doyner: Weaver95: this whole thing is gonna get swept under the rug, and nobody will pay any attention to it.

Look over there! It's a mooselimm welfare drag queen illegal immigrant buying cigarettes while having an abortion and teaching an anchor baby about evolution, birth control, and Thomas Jefferson at the same time!

/ftfy

/ftfm

 
2012-07-22 08:36:09 PM
Just wait until this ball really gets rolling. This will not be swept under the rug any more than any of YOU allow it.

I'll provide a clue to what seems like a world of the clueless. Search for 'Keenan and Scott Lawsuit'
 
2012-07-22 10:31:43 PM

Proximuscentauri: Just wait until this ball really gets rolling. This will not be swept under the rug any more than any of YOU allow it.

I'll provide a clue to what seems like a world of the clueless. Search for 'Keenan and Scott Lawsuit'


And do what exactly? The TEA Party turned into a corporate shill group. OWS got ignored and vilified. The corruption is so entrenched in Congress that any reformers are quickly made ineffectual with arcane rules and procedures that prevent any change of the status quo. Our choices for President are well groomed puppets, both beholden to same moneyed interests. SCOTUS made it legal for corporations to essentially buy all the political influence they need.

Tell me, how do average schmucks like us effect change? For all our bluster, most Americans are fearful, entitled, and lazy. Until the masses really start suffering (by then it will be far too late) will we see any effective resistance to the slow motion coup of the American government by the ultra-wealthy.
 
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