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(Slate)   "We must get rid of the save icon, because computers should be smart enough to save without being told," says someone who has clearly never been in the middle of a project when the power went out   (slate.com) divider line 212
    More: Unlikely, Microsoft Word, office suites, graphical user interfaces, debris disk, integral, blight, Jackson Pollock, file names  
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5568 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jul 2012 at 10:21 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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NFA [TotalFark]
2012-07-19 08:27:30 AM
"Computers are smart enough to preserve everything I type without me hitting a stupid disk icon."

F#CK YOU!

I don't want a computer that saves ever f#cking thing I type. Let me guess Mr. Manjoo, you have no problem with leaving your credit card on your desk at work or the dashboard of your car. Security cameras following your every move, every day isn't a problem because you're not doing anything wrong. Having Gmail, Yahoo, AOL and other mail sites have your name, home phone, cellphone, birth date and the contents of every email you've ever written on permanent file is not a problem, IT'S A FEATURE!!!

Mr. Manjoo, sometimes people type things they don't want to be retrieveable by others in the future who just happen to have access to their computer. It's just that simple.

Oh and let me say it again F#CK YOU!
 
2012-07-19 08:30:42 AM
Yes, they are smart enough. That is why Word, and many other applications come up with whatever you worked on last if you didn't save it, and asks if you want to keep it.
 
2012-07-19 08:50:06 AM
why does Word need me to press a button for it to understand that I really, truly do want to keep everything I've typed up to this point?

... because you might not really, truly want to keep everything you've typed up to this point?

Let's say you open a document to view, and while you're scrolling around looking at everything, you misclick, or accidentally hit a key. You might not even be aware you've done so. Guess what? Word just saved that change for you! Automatically. And you don't even know. So you send the report off to your boss, or client, or to the printers.

So yeah, computers are generally smart* enough to know what we want. And what we want is an option to save our changes, or not.

* Computers are not smart. They're incredibly stupid machines that have to be told everything, are completely unable to make inferences, and can by no means read your mind to find out what you really want to do rather than what you think you want to do
 
2012-07-19 09:10:14 AM
Even two year olds know that if they want to play with a toy later, they have to be able to identity and locate the toy. I bet when he was two, the author thought that was an unfair burden and didn't see why mommy couldn't just keep track of all his toys. "Mommy's smart enough. Why can't she do all the hard work?"
 
2012-07-19 09:34:01 AM
Jesus Christ this guy is a moron.
 
2012-07-19 09:53:35 AM
www.word-2010.com

/Farking moron
 
2012-07-19 10:23:52 AM
Ah, you guys wouldn't be interested in this. It's really more of a Macintosh thing.
 
2012-07-19 10:24:15 AM
Uninterruptible power supply, what's that?
Derpity.

/This article is another reason Why We Suck (TM).
 
2012-07-19 10:24:33 AM
Autosave can be a biatch. Was playing Bioshock (or something similar.) I was done with my play session, and just for fun, I started shooting all my guns until they were empty. Then...*autosave*. Crap! No! My last manual save had been several hours ago, and now I had no more ammo.
 
2012-07-19 10:24:45 AM
I see we're greenlighting articles written by "special" people now.
 
2012-07-19 10:25:53 AM

BurnShrike: why does Word need me to press a button for it to understand that I really, truly do want to keep everything I've typed up to this point?

... because you might not really, truly want to keep everything you've typed up to this point?

Let's say you open a document to view, and while you're scrolling around looking at everything, you misclick, or accidentally hit a key. You might not even be aware you've done so. Guess what? Word just saved that change for you! Automatically. And you don't even know. So you send the report off to your boss, or client, or to the printers.

So yeah, computers are generally smart* enough to know what we want. And what we want is an option to save our changes, or not.

* Computers are not smart. They're incredibly stupid machines that have to be told everything, are completely unable to make inferences, and can by no means read your mind to find out what you really want to do rather than what you think you want to do


It should be possible for a word document to not only save the document in realtime, but also save the log of actions so that you can undo and or edit. Basically, there is no reason why the file, as it resides in memory, should not also be committed to disk for easy recovery or access. This does not alter the user experience in the slightest.
 
2012-07-19 10:26:01 AM
Crap like this is why you should need a license to use a computer.
 
2012-07-19 10:26:15 AM
This article smells of unwarranted entitlement and delusion. No criticism is necessary. Just rest this article around his neck and declare this fellow knows nothing about computers.
 
2012-07-19 10:26:58 AM
I really, REALLY hate Google Docs' auto-save function.
 
2012-07-19 10:27:05 AM
Browse through Mr. Manjoo's article history, and you get a pretty decent sense of what type of columnist he is. The all-too-common sort who confuses being insightful with being provocative.

/"Welp, this is it. The iPhone is finished."
 
2012-07-19 10:27:07 AM
Power went out yesterday at my work. I lost all my stuff that didn't have auto-save so I'm definitely a fan of auto-save. But I still need to be able to save my files for backup purposes when I need to, and as was said above sometimes I don't want to save the work I just did on something. Auto-save alone is just as stupid as not having auto-save.
 
2012-07-19 10:27:17 AM
I don't understand how you could think autosaving is bad.... So what if it saves something you didn't want? Delete it. It's not fkn engraved in stone.
 
2012-07-19 10:27:33 AM
just buy a Google Chrome machine and throw out your pc or linuxbox or mac
who needs a computer
 
2012-07-19 10:28:20 AM
CTRL+S moron. Your hands are most likely already on the keyboard anyway if you're actually typing. With your left hand you barely have to leave home row. It's practically a twitch for me because I save after every line edit without even having to think about it.
 
2012-07-19 10:28:37 AM
Sure, get rid of it.
{ctrl-s} is better anyway.
 
2012-07-19 10:28:59 AM
This is why Adobe InDesign rocks my socks. I can be working on multiple files and then the power goes off or the program temporarily shuts down but it's ok! All my files autosave every minute or so.

I haven't gotten the new suite yet but I hear that they've applied the technology to Illustrator and PhotoShop now. Oh please let this be true :).
 
2012-07-19 10:30:12 AM

MycroftHolmes: It should be possible for a word document to not only save the document in realtime, but also save the log of actions so that you can undo and or edit. Basically, there is no reason why the file, as it resides in memory, should not also be committed to disk for easy recovery or access. This does not alter the user experience in the slightest.


See, e.g. OSX Lion.
 
2012-07-19 10:30:12 AM
Get rid of the icon all you want, anybody who uses a computer for more than a hour a day just hits ctrl+s anyway.
 
2012-07-19 10:30:58 AM
I hope I never have to write software for this guy, because he's obviously retarded.

I bet he thinks all delete actions should be forever retrievable too, amirite Cpt. Dumbass?
 
2012-07-19 10:31:04 AM

MythDragon: Autosave can be a biatch. Was playing Bioshock (or something similar.) I was done with my play session, and just for fun, I started shooting all my guns until they were empty. Then...*autosave*. Crap! No! My last manual save had been several hours ago, and now I had no more ammo.


One of the things I loved about Skyrim was that they had multiple autosaves (3 in total), so if you went into a house (autosave), realized ohh crap I did something wrong, you can just reload an earlier one instead of being screwed. Still, you should always save when you can (I got screwed on the mysterious stones quest, and didn't realize it until 4 hours/no manual saves later).
 
2012-07-19 10:31:48 AM

rumpelstiltskin: Even two year olds know that if they want to play with a toy later, they have to be able to identity and locate the toy. I bet when he was two, the author thought that was an unfair burden and didn't see why mommy couldn't just keep track of all his toys. "Mommy's smart enough. Why can't she do all the hard work?"


I was appalled at his idea that you shouldn't need to name documents. How the hell are you going find things? Open every document up?
 
2012-07-19 10:32:13 AM
And what's the deal with all those F1, F2, F3 buttons at the top of the keyboard? They just make your screen go all funny. Get rid of them.
 
2012-07-19 10:32:50 AM
Ctrl+S, stupid. It's always Ctrl +S!

sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net

Now get out of here before I three-hole-punch your face.
 
2012-07-19 10:33:07 AM
auto-save + templates = maximum joy
 
2012-07-19 10:34:07 AM
img.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-19 10:34:13 AM

MycroftHolmes: BurnShrike: why does Word need me to press a button for it to understand that I really, truly do want to keep everything I've typed up to this point?

... because you might not really, truly want to keep everything you've typed up to this point?

Let's say you open a document to view, and while you're scrolling around looking at everything, you misclick, or accidentally hit a key. You might not even be aware you've done so. Guess what? Word just saved that change for you! Automatically. And you don't even know. So you send the report off to your boss, or client, or to the printers.

So yeah, computers are generally smart* enough to know what we want. And what we want is an option to save our changes, or not.

* Computers are not smart. They're incredibly stupid machines that have to be told everything, are completely unable to make inferences, and can by no means read your mind to find out what you really want to do rather than what you think you want to do

It should be possible for a word document to not only save the document in realtime, but also save the log of actions so that you can undo and or edit. Basically, there is no reason why the file, as it resides in memory, should not also be committed to disk for easy recovery or access. This does not alter the user experience in the slightest.


You ever heard of the "track changes" option in word?
 
2012-07-19 10:34:31 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: Ah, you guys wouldn't be interested in this. It's really more of a Macintosh thing.


Auto-full-save only works in conjunction with some sort of version control, which is why Macs added them both at the same time. That way if you mess up, it's easy to see the changes and roll back to some previous good version. I've set Emacs to work similarly, and it is very nice not to have to bounce "save" all the time. But I don't think the Windows world is ready for that without some similar backend overhauls.
 
2012-07-19 10:35:23 AM

MycroftHolmes: BurnShrike: why does Word need me to press a button for it to understand that I really, truly do want to keep everything I've typed up to this point?

... because you might not really, truly want to keep everything you've typed up to this point?

Let's say you open a document to view, and while you're scrolling around looking at everything, you misclick, or accidentally hit a key. You might not even be aware you've done so. Guess what? Word just saved that change for you! Automatically. And you don't even know. So you send the report off to your boss, or client, or to the printers.

So yeah, computers are generally smart* enough to know what we want. And what we want is an option to save our changes, or not.

* Computers are not smart. They're incredibly stupid machines that have to be told everything, are completely unable to make inferences, and can by no means read your mind to find out what you really want to do rather than what you think you want to do

It should be possible for a word document to not only save the document in realtime, but also save the log of actions so that you can undo and or edit. Basically, there is no reason why the file, as it resides in memory, should not also be committed to disk for easy recovery or access. This does not alter the user experience in the slightest.


Because having to check the log file every time to see if you accidentaly deleted/added something in an important file is so much easier than closing the file without saving.
 
2012-07-19 10:35:27 AM

MythDragon: Autosave can be a biatch. Was playing Bioshock (or something similar.) I was done with my play session, and just for fun, I started shooting all my guns until they were empty. Then...*autosave*. Crap! No! My last manual save had been several hours ago, and now I had no more ammo.


Could be worse. At least with Bioshock's respawn, you can eventually beat everything to death with the wrench. Just takes a bit.
 
2012-07-19 10:35:42 AM

MycroftHolmes: It should be possible for a word document to not only save the document in realtime, but also save the log of actions so that you can undo and or edit. Basically, there is no reason why the file, as it resides in memory, should not also be committed to disk for easy recovery or access. This does not alter the user experience in the slightest.


I can think of a bunch of reasons not to save an infinitely long edit list of an inifinite number of unnamed documents, and they may not be valid - but your response also doesn't address the point - if I'm just reading through a document, and i accidentally a keystroke, it's not about having a persistent undo log - I didn't know I made a change. It wasn't on purpose. I don't want to examine change logs every time I browse something.
 
2012-07-19 10:35:56 AM

NFA: "Computers are smart enough to preserve everything I type without me hitting a stupid disk icon."

F#CK YOU!

I don't want a computer that saves ever f#cking thing I type. Let me guess Mr. Manjoo, you have no problem with leaving your credit card on your desk at work or the dashboard of your car. Security cameras following your every move, every day isn't a problem because you're not doing anything wrong. Having Gmail, Yahoo, AOL and other mail sites have your name, home phone, cellphone, birth date and the contents of every email you've ever written on permanent file is not a problem, IT'S A FEATURE!!!

Mr. Manjoo, sometimes people type things they don't want to be retrieveable by others in the future who just happen to have access to their computer. It's just that simple.

Oh and let me say it again F#CK YOU!

squaremadonna.files.wordpress.com
Approves
 
2012-07-19 10:37:00 AM

MycroftHolmes: It should be possible for a word document to not only save the document in realtime, but also save the log of actions so that you can undo and or edit. Basically, there is no reason why the file, as it resides in memory, should not also be committed to disk for easy recovery or access. This does not alter the user experience in the slightest.


As long as those edits only exist on your computer and are inaccessible to anyone else that could access the file. Remember the Cat Schwartz Photoshop incident?
 
2012-07-19 10:37:02 AM
Problem solved: Just have a toggle button for autosave. Toggle on - the document autosaves, and you should be able to specify how often. Toggle off - you run the risk of losing everything, but it'll only save on your command.
 
2012-07-19 10:37:08 AM
If it bothers you that much: here's and idea for you: Customize open office to get ride of the save button you think you don't need, and not spend any more money on a Microsoft product?
 
2012-07-19 10:37:59 AM

LasersHurt: I don't understand how you could think autosaving is bad.... So what if it saves something you didn't want? Delete it. It's not fkn engraved in stone.


If it can also save the undo string to reach the previous save, sure.
 
2012-07-19 10:38:41 AM
AutoCad: AutoSave + Drawing Recovery = gg
 
2012-07-19 10:39:44 AM
Photo of author:

up-ship.com

/hot
 
2012-07-19 10:39:50 AM

MycroftHolmes:

It should be possible for a word document to not only save the document in realtime, but also save the log of actions so that you can undo and or edit. Basically, there is no reason why the file, as it resides in memory, should not also be committed to disk for easy recovery or access. This does not alter the user experience in the slightest.


It is possible. Say you are working on a document that saves automatically. If you make an error, and it saves, there is always an undo function. the problem with auto save is this. Like BurnStrike said, if you accidentally hit a key, and do not realize it, the file saves and you close it. Say, you turn off your work pc figuring you will come back in and print it the next day. So, the next day, you open the doc, hit print or fire off an email and then realize there is a mistake. You've wasted time or need to explain to the boss why you're sending poorly written docs. That is why auto save sucks. Having to save forces people to pay attention to what they are doing
 
2012-07-19 10:40:02 AM
Wow, so much hate for auto-save from the paranoid luddite fringe. I've been using nothing but Google Docs for my word processing for about 3 years now, and their autosave feature is amazing. Not only does it save everything I type AS I TYPE IT (not "every X minutes", which is a pointless and stupid arbitrary time interval), it also keeps all of my revisions with easy-to-see revision marks.

And if you don't want something you wrote to be saved forever, don't farking type it. That's just plain stupid. There is very little you can do with a computer that isn't recorded somewhere and that isn't fairly easy to retrieve if you have the know-how and the tools. Just don't do it.
 
2012-07-19 10:40:57 AM
As someone who works with large assemblies in CAD and needs to make sure that I am saving where I am supposed to (thereby getting rid of things like broken links) and I have the auto-save function turned off because nothing is more jarring then being the middle of some operation only to have your software freeze up because it is saving something.....

Where was I? Oh yeah, fark off! I don't even use CTRL-S unless I am absolutely sure it is going to save where I need it to save!
 
2012-07-19 10:41:15 AM
I think some people are misunderstanding the sort of save he's talking about. What he's talking about is an autosave similar to what Premiere Pro does.

As you work, Premiere periodically autosaves your project... not overwriting the file you have saved, but separately, in its own place. When you have a crash or something like that, the next time you open Premiere, it recognizes that a crash occurred and asks if you'd like to restore the project you were working on... and actually encourages you, once it's opened it, to save the project to a different filename.

He's not talking about a logfile that records for posterity an unbroken record of every keystroke you make.

He's talking about a TIvo-like buffer that perpetually saves the current state of your document. Google Docs does this. You often go to save, and find you have no need to, because the current state of the document is already saved.

I think he goes too far saying that we don't need a save button, but I do think he's more or less correct that in 99.9% of the time, particularly with text documents, it could really be made superfluous. But the save button is innocuous and unobtrusive enough that there's no reason not to leave it for that .01% the time. It's those sort of unnecessary attention-seeking "bold" moves that often fark up otherwise good software.

"We killed the 'Save' button!"

"Why?!?!?"
 
2012-07-19 10:41:55 AM
I'm not sure how having to manually click save is better than auto save if the power goes out, but aside from that, this is dumb.
 
2012-07-19 10:42:45 AM
Wow this is one of the dumbest articles I have ever read. First of it DOES save stuff before you give it a filename, just in case of a power outage etc (file recovery).

Second off I would be FURIOUS if my excel spreadsheets or code saved without me approving it.
 
2012-07-19 10:42:59 AM
My Google Docs autosaves for me for every change I make (for good or bad).
 
2012-07-19 10:43:09 AM

BHShaman: Sure, get rid of it.
{ctrl-s} is better anyway.


A MEN SISTAH!

but yes, this article is crap.. there is an autosave feature that is configurable. having it "save" everything you type is moronic and will cause slow systems to be even slower.
 
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