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(Townhall)   How easy is it to commit voter fraud?   (townhall.com) divider line 334
    More: Sad, voter fraud, get out the vote, ID laws, Attorney General Eric Holder, Jim Crow, grandmother, Brennan Center  
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4922 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 Jul 2012 at 2:17 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-19 10:25:37 AM
let's ask O'Keefe and the other "conservative activists" who keep getting busted for breaking the law, thus showing that since they couldn't get away with it, the system is broken.
 
2012-07-19 10:30:55 AM
Registration fraud? Easy. Voter fraud? Not so much. Know how i know that is true? The only person convicted of major voter fraud in the last four years was the REPUBLICAN Secretary of State of Indiana who knowingly voted in the wrong district, because he wasn't questioned like everyone is on their registration.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-19 10:32:07 AM
It's the part what fort of ID is allowed that is the problem. If gun permits are allowed but student IDs are not, then it is an obvious attempt at voter suppression.
 
2012-07-19 10:32:20 AM
How easy is it to commit voter fraud?

James O'Keefe,...



Aaaaand that is where I stopped reading. (I should have stopped earlier)
 
2012-07-19 10:38:11 AM
There was a little bit of static on the radio this morning, so I'm going to make it harder for five million people to listen to the radio.
 
2012-07-19 10:43:20 AM
Look, if minorities, women, and the not yet wealthy would simply stop voting we could put this whole voter i.d. thing to rest.
 
2012-07-19 10:44:58 AM

GAT_00: Registration fraud? Easy. Voter fraud? Not so much. Know how i know that is true? The only person convicted of major voter fraud in the last four years was the REPUBLICAN Secretary of State of Indiana who knowingly voted in the wrong district, because he wasn't questioned like everyone is on their registration.


There was a democratic election official in Noxubee county MS that was convicted of election fraud. Not that he counts or anything.
 
2012-07-19 10:45:42 AM

vpb: It's the part what fort of ID is allowed that is the problem. If gun permits are allowed but student IDs are not, then it is an obvious attempt at voter suppression.


And IDs would be perfectly legal, as long as they were provided free of cost to all persons. As is, they are a poll tax.
 
2012-07-19 10:45:47 AM
I'm sure Townhall will give it to us straight!
 
2012-07-19 10:46:32 AM
Just fu*king read this.
 
2012-07-19 11:01:09 AM

EnviroDude: GAT_00: Registration fraud? Easy. Voter fraud? Not so much. Know how i know that is true? The only person convicted of major voter fraud in the last four years was the REPUBLICAN Secretary of State of Indiana who knowingly voted in the wrong district, because he wasn't questioned like everyone is on their registration.

There was a democratic election official in Noxubee county MS that was convicted of election fraud. Not that he counts or anything.


And that's why I'm not going to trust any politician to limit my right to vote or my ability to register to vote. The current laws (in my state) are good enough--great, in fact.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-19 11:16:25 AM

EnviroDude: GAT_00: Registration fraud? Easy. Voter fraud? Not so much. Know how i know that is true? The only person convicted of major voter fraud in the last four years was the REPUBLICAN Secretary of State of Indiana who knowingly voted in the wrong district, because he wasn't questioned like everyone is on their registration.

There was a democratic election official in Noxubee county MS that was convicted of election fraud. Not that he counts or anything.


You mean the one who was trying to suppress votes using exactly the same tactics that Republicans are trying to use?

You don't even realize that you are making the exact opposite point that you are trying to make do you? You just saw that there was a D after his name.

Link
 
2012-07-19 11:19:06 AM
I upvoted this thread.
 
2012-07-19 11:19:18 AM
This is retarded. Let's say you want to defraud a national election. How many fraudulent votes do you need to make to defraud an election? The closest presidential election recently, and most controversial, was 2000- which had a margin of 500,000 votes (and the victor did not win the popular vote). Even if we assume you can bias an election through strategic targeting of vulnerable districts, It's difficult to believe you'd need less that 5% of that number. Even if we assume you're going to manipulate an election with a mere 1,000 fraudulent votes, you're going to need hundreds of people involved in your conspiracy.

If you think you can throw an election at the polls, you're a retard. If you want to manipulate an election, you corrupt the system itself. You position yourself to control the voting machines, to control the vote counting, or find ways to keep voters away from the polls (like issuing false bulletins about the polling place having moved, or passing voter ID laws).
 
2012-07-19 11:28:42 AM

t3knomanser: This is retarded. Let's say you want to defraud a national election. How many fraudulent votes do you need to make to defraud an election? The closest presidential election recently, and most controversial, was 2000- which had a margin of 500,000 votes (and the victor did not win the popular vote). Even if we assume you can bias an election through strategic targeting of vulnerable districts, It's difficult to believe you'd need less that 5% of that number. Even if we assume you're going to manipulate an election with a mere 1,000 fraudulent votes, you're going to need hundreds of people involved in your conspiracy.

If you think you can throw an election at the polls, you're a retard. If you want to manipulate an election, you corrupt the system itself. You position yourself to control the voting machines, to control the vote counting, or find ways to keep voters away from the polls (like issuing false bulletins about the polling place having moved, or passing voter ID laws).


I don't disagree with you, but you should go back and look at the margin of victory in Florida in 2000 before saying 1000 votes isn't significant.
 
2012-07-19 11:35:30 AM

brap: I upvoted this thread.


We are all very proud of you.
 
2012-07-19 11:38:35 AM
Does the race disparate impact argument apply, for example, to the push for Washington, D.C., statehood?

Way to go with starting with a straw-man!

While it's true that a lot of the push for statehood (rather than return the rest of DC to MD like Arlington was returned to VA) is based on the starry-eyed thoughts of two more senators and one more congressman with "D" after their names, it's totally irrelevant to whether this voter-ID thing is a bad idea.

Given the Brenner Center data, I can't support voter-ID, and I'm Republican. It has too many noxious side-effects that requires addressing.
 
2012-07-19 11:38:58 AM
you see they got a black guy to write the article therefore republican efforts at massive voter disenfranchisement are not racist and furthermore
 
2012-07-19 11:42:43 AM
If it was easy the GOP would already be doing it.
 
2012-07-19 11:50:30 AM

cmunic8r99: I don't disagree with you, but you should go back and look at the margin of victory in Florida in 2000 before saying 1000 votes isn't significant.


What I was trying to get at was that 2000 was an exceedingly unusual election, and even in that election, you would have needed a massive conspiracy to actually be able to tamper with it.
 
2012-07-19 11:52:23 AM
let me guess - they're confusing voter registration fraud with voter fraud, right?
 
2012-07-19 11:55:22 AM
CSB:

So, amid all the redistricting (which was done well here) and voter purges (which are ridiculous) they've had to reissue our voter ID cards.

It says on the back that the card is useless. So here we have some state org that has a database that knows my district and precincts, knows my party, knows my address, and knows that I'm an active voter and has my signature on file. I paid nothing to receive this card.

Why the fark is this not sufficient ID for voting? We're relying on state IDs and drivers' licenses? Like no one every falsified those.

The whole thing is retarded, like most of FL government.
 
2012-07-19 11:56:04 AM

FlashHarry: let me guess - they're confusing voter registration fraud with voter fraud, right?


not if valiant investigative reporter james o'keiffe is to be belihahahaha sorry i couldn't get through that sentence.
 
2012-07-19 11:57:12 AM
I hope the Democrats get on this voter suppression sh*t soon. This is a scary scenario, particularly in places like Florida, Ohio, etc.
 
2012-07-19 11:58:52 AM

Diogenes: CSB:

So, amid all the redistricting (which was done well here) and voter purges (which are ridiculous) they've had to reissue our voter ID cards.

It says on the back that the card is useless. So here we have some state org that has a database that knows my district and precincts, knows my party, knows my address, and knows that I'm an active voter and has my signature on file. I paid nothing to receive this card.

Why the fark is this not sufficient ID for voting? We're relying on state IDs and drivers' licenses? Like no one every falsified those.

The whole thing is retarded, like most of FL government.


Wait... there is a state issued voter ID card that is not sufficient ID to allow you to vote?

I'm going to need a few minutes to wrap my brain around that one -- unless it's not a photo ID and it's just that little piece of paper that they send when you get added to the voter rolls.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-19 12:01:05 PM

coco ebert: I hope the Democrats get on this voter suppression sh*t soon. This is a scary scenario, particularly in places like Florida, Ohio, etc.


Well, it has already happened in Florida. Link
 
2012-07-19 12:03:41 PM

Donnchadha: Diogenes: CSB:

So, amid all the redistricting (which was done well here) and voter purges (which are ridiculous) they've had to reissue our voter ID cards.

It says on the back that the card is useless. So here we have some state org that has a database that knows my district and precincts, knows my party, knows my address, and knows that I'm an active voter and has my signature on file. I paid nothing to receive this card.

Why the fark is this not sufficient ID for voting? We're relying on state IDs and drivers' licenses? Like no one every falsified those.

The whole thing is retarded, like most of FL government.

Wait... there is a state issued voter ID card that is not sufficient ID to allow you to vote?

I'm going to need a few minutes to wrap my brain around that one -- unless it's not a photo ID and it's just that little piece of paper that they send when you get added to the voter rolls.


It's not photo. But it has other identifying information.

If I can use a utility bill I see no reason why this ID is not sufficient.
 
2012-07-19 12:09:14 PM
It's easy to commit murder. Get a gun, point it, pull trigger.
It's easy to commit bank robbery. Write note, give to teller, take bag, run.
It's easy to molest a kid. Find kid in vulnerable situation, molest, threaten to kill their parents if they tell, leave.

It's EASY to do a lot of bad stuff. That fact is fundamentally unimportant. What is utterly missing from McQueef's amoral, illegal "expose'" is:
a: whether large-scale voter fraud would be caught
b: whether there is ANY positive outcome from an individual personally engaging in the federal crime of voter fraud (the benefits need to be greater than the costs, or people generally won't offend)
c: whether that can be translated into the thousands of individual fraudulent actions, all favoring a single candidate or issue, that it would take to swing an election
d: whether any particular action taken to protect against such (undeniably rare) activity would, on balance, result in fewer legitimate votes being cast.

Remember: Unless you're doing this from blatantly partisan motives or out of an anti-democracy intent, you have to realize that any "anti-fraud" law MUST prevent more fraud than it disenfranchises eligible voters, or that law is by definition designed to suppress voting.

Since every "voter ID" law that has been put forward so far has failed this last point, they are all illegitimate extentions of state authority to control voter behavior, and should be condemned by anyone who actually wants free and fair elections. But hey, look at who is supporting them...

I'm personally looking forward to the amusement in October when the UN announces that it intends to send impartial election observers into the US to monitor for voter suppression. The right-wing is going to absolutely blow a gasket, but it'll be their own damn fault.

/you want to look for REAL vote fraud?
//reverse engineer the software on closed-source voting machines
 
2012-07-19 12:20:51 PM
This wouldn't be a problem if everyone would take my spiritual advisor's suggestion and use his implantable biometric ID. The model number is 616 and it emits a constant reek of sulfur, but he told me that would get fixed in the next patch.
 
2012-07-19 12:23:22 PM

Lando Lincoln: brap: I upvoted this thread.

We are all very proud of you.


If the downvotes weren't so numerous, the weak headline may well have kept this bullshiat off the politics tab entirely.

Nice going, fools.

/My advisor also gives a steep discount for atheists, if that's what you're worried about.
 
2012-07-19 12:45:48 PM
"How easy" isn't the issue, "how likely" is, and time after time we've seen Republicans are much more likely to commit voter fraud.
 
2012-07-19 12:53:34 PM

Lando Lincoln: brap: I upvoted this thread.

We are all very proud of you.


And I am equally proud to have had this opportunity to defraud you all with my bold-faced lies.

i253.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-19 12:54:33 PM
How easy is it to take a sledgehammer to an ant?

Pretty damned easy. And the payoff is huge. That's why the GOP's doing it.
 
2012-07-19 12:58:37 PM

vernonFL: How easy is it to commit voter fraud?

James O'Keefe,...


Aaaaand that is where I stopped reading. (I should have stopped earlier)


Really? I stopped at "Larry Elder"
 
2012-07-19 01:00:56 PM

cmunic8r99: I don't disagree with you, but you should go back and look at the margin of victory in Florida in 2000 before saying 1000 votes isn't significant.


But no one knew that it would come down to 1,000 votes in a specific state. Thus, if you wanted to throw the election... naturally you'd have to plan well in advance.

That would probably include tens of thousands of votes across most (if not all) swing states.

Otherwise you'd have to wait for the outcome, and then go back in time.
 
2012-07-19 01:12:13 PM

dahmers love zombie: It's EASY to do a lot of bad stuff. That fact is fundamentally unimportant. What is utterly missing from McQueef's amoral, illegal "expose'" is:
a: whether large-scale voter fraud would be caught
b: whether there is ANY positive outcome from an individual personally engaging in the federal crime of voter fraud (the benefits need to be greater than the costs, or people generally won't offend)
c: whether that can be translated into the thousands of individual fraudulent actions, all favoring a single candidate or issue, that it would take to swing an election
d: whether any particular action taken to protect against such (undeniably rare) activity would, on balance, result in fewer legitimate votes being cast.


This too? Who would be served so well from throwing an election that it would be worth both the massive amount of work, and massive amount of risk?

A. A candidate themselves. Hard to believe any of them would take the risk in these times of the 24/7, everything is recorded world.

B. One of the two major parties. Again- same as above.

That's it. What would some fringe group acrtually receive if their cunning plan went through and they actually threw the election for Candidate A when Candidate B really should have won? A pat on the back? LULZ? Yeah... I'm thinking hundreds of people would not risk lengthy prison sentences for that.
 
2012-07-19 01:15:41 PM

downstairs: Otherwise you'd have to wait for the outcome, and then go back in time.


And Obama is the only one with a magical time machine!
 
2012-07-19 01:29:20 PM

vpb: EnviroDude: GAT_00: Registration fraud? Easy. Voter fraud? Not so much. Know how i know that is true? The only person convicted of major voter fraud in the last four years was the REPUBLICAN Secretary of State of Indiana who knowingly voted in the wrong district, because he wasn't questioned like everyone is on their registration.

There was a democratic election official in Noxubee county MS that was convicted of election fraud. Not that he counts or anything.

You mean the one who was trying to suppress votes using exactly the same tactics that Republicans are trying to use?

You don't even realize that you are making the exact opposite point that you are trying to make do you? You just saw that there was a D after his name.

Link


I hadn't heard about that case until today, but it sounds like he used a mix of tactics:
Mr. Brown is accused in the lawsuit and in supporting documents of paying and organizing notaries, some of whom illegally marked absentee ballots or influenced how the ballots were voted; of publishing a list of voters, all white, accompanied by a warning that they would be challenged at the polls; of importing black voters into the county; and of altering racial percentages in districts by manipulating the registration rolls.

I've highlighted in red the ones that Democrats usually accuse Republicans of doing, and blue for the ones Republicans usually accuse Democrats of doing.

I wouldn't consider any of those "exactly the same as" requiring voter ID.
 
2012-07-19 01:35:22 PM

serial_crusher: vpb: EnviroDude: GAT_00: Registration fraud? Easy. Voter fraud? Not so much. Know how i know that is true? The only person convicted of major voter fraud in the last four years was the REPUBLICAN Secretary of State of Indiana who knowingly voted in the wrong district, because he wasn't questioned like everyone is on their registration.

There was a democratic election official in Noxubee county MS that was convicted of election fraud. Not that he counts or anything.

You mean the one who was trying to suppress votes using exactly the same tactics that Republicans are trying to use?

You don't even realize that you are making the exact opposite point that you are trying to make do you? You just saw that there was a D after his name.

Link

I hadn't heard about that case until today, but it sounds like he used a mix of tactics:
Mr. Brown is accused in the lawsuit and in supporting documents of paying and organizing notaries, some of whom illegally marked absentee ballots or influenced how the ballots were voted; of publishing a list of voters, all white, accompanied by a warning that they would be challenged at the polls; of importing black voters into the county; and of altering racial percentages in districts by manipulating the registration rolls.

I've highlighted in red the ones that Democrats usually accuse Republicans of doing, and blue for the ones Republicans usually accuse Democrats of doing.

I wouldn't consider any of those "exactly the same as" requiring voter ID.


Nor really solved by requiring voter ID.
 
2012-07-19 02:16:27 PM
I've suddenly had a good idea. We should get Orville Reddenbacher to sponsor the politics tab. Because a thread like this will be making popcorn across party lines.
 
2012-07-19 02:19:46 PM
How easy is it to get human trash to support disenfranchisement in a democracy?
 
2012-07-19 02:22:02 PM
Apart from the fact that forcing people to pay for a voter ID or the documents necessary to get a voter ID is a poll tax, you can order a fake ID from China that is so realistic that even professionals have no idea they're fake.
 
2012-07-19 02:23:46 PM
They still can't accept that they got their collective ass handed to them by a black guy. It HAD to be fraud in their minds.
 
2012-07-19 02:24:08 PM
His proof is James O'Keefe? Really?
 
2012-07-19 02:24:18 PM
www.gregpalast.com
 
2012-07-19 02:24:31 PM
Every form of fraud, dirty dealing, and exploitation scares the right - because they know it's exactly what they'd do.
 
2012-07-19 02:25:40 PM

brap: I upvoted this thread.


How do we know that's actually you? You didn't present a photo ID.
 
2012-07-19 02:26:59 PM

EnviroDude: GAT_00: Registration fraud? Easy. Voter fraud? Not so much. Know how i know that is true? The only person convicted of major voter fraud in the last four years was the REPUBLICAN Secretary of State of Indiana who knowingly voted in the wrong district, because he wasn't questioned like everyone is on their registration.

There was a democratic election official in Noxubee county MS that was convicted of election fraud. Not that he counts or anything.


Sure it does. In fact it DOUBLES the number of people convicted of voter fraud. Therefore, we should set up a system that disenfranchises the poor, infirmed, very old, and very young voters. Then we should only allow homeowners to vote. Then repeal the 19th Amendment (as suggested by Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh). Then only allow Christians to vote (another one from Coulter).

And we should do this to prevent those like the TWO people who were convicted of voter fraud from doing it again.
 
2012-07-19 02:27:10 PM

Serious Black: Apart from the fact that forcing people to pay for a voter ID or the documents necessary to get a voter ID is a poll tax, you can order a fake ID from China that is so realistic that even professionals have no idea they're fake.


Wow, interesting link...
 
2012-07-19 02:27:24 PM

brap: I upvoted this thread.


You deserve a gold star.
 
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