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(Independent)   Why is Russia so adamant that the Syrian regime maintain control of Syria? Because if Democracy spills just a bit north, it's in Russian territory... that has always been oppressed by Moscow   (independent.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Interesting, Russia, Syrians, Russians, Moscow, Baath party, Bashar, democracy, mitochondrial DNA  
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5811 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Jul 2012 at 11:57 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-19 01:49:11 PM  
Hmm. I thought it was because Syria was home to Russia's only Mediterranean port.
 
jvl
2012-07-19 01:52:01 PM  
Syria leases Russia its only Mediterranean Naval Base.
 
2012-07-19 01:53:42 PM  

jiaxiaobo: What's it called when it's like a democracy, but in order to vote every 4 years you have to pass a basic test covering sociology, history, government and finance. And also have done at least one nice thing for your community in that span.

What's that kind of government called because I want to live there.


geology.utah.gov

Here's what the land looks like

Hint: The cops all have wooden legs
 
2012-07-19 01:59:23 PM  

BgJonson79: FormlessOne: WTF Indeed: No, because this is a proxy war between Iran and the Saudis over influence in the Middle East. Russia has strong ties with Iran, and if Iran's regional power is weakened, so is Russia's. The US is currently backing the Saudis, Egyptians, and Israelis. Therefore the loss of Syria would make Iran the last power base for Russia and China in the region.

And we're done. This is why the U.S. is trying to manufacture an ally-approved pretext for direct involvement in Syria.

So we shouldn't stop human rights abuses?


1) who is "we"

2) what is a human right?

3) what gave this "we" the authority to enforce these rights

4) can this "we" demonstrate to a reasonable degree that it isn't itself an abuser of "human rights" on a vast scale?
 
2012-07-19 02:04:11 PM  

TimonC346: czetie: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The last thing Russia and China want to do is go around legitimizing popular uprisings.

Or condemning the use of violence to quiet dissent.

I expect this from China, but I can't figure out Russia's angle. It has been on the wrong side of history from the very beginning of the Arab Spring. Does Putin think that maybe his side can win one and thereby hold onto a deeply dependent ally in the region? Or does he know he's backing a loser and doesn't care because Iran is that important to Russia? I honestly don't get it.

/Russia: losing The Great Game for 99 years.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Russia is oppressive as hell, but I guess I was wrong when I thought they were trying to show the world they appeared democratic.


To put it quite frankly, Vladimir Putin is a thug, and everything in Russian politics is beginning to be a reflection of that. The more influence he gains among the politicians and the Russian populace, the worse it ends up getting. The worst part though is that Putin seems to be combining the chauvinism of czarist Russia with the leader worship and KGB tactics of the Soviet era into as potent a poison as you can get.
 
2012-07-19 02:09:02 PM  
The Russians don't want Assad taken out for the same reason the Saudis didn't want Saddam Hussein removed, he is a buffer against fundamentalist Shia theocracy which is what you will get in Syria, not a western-style democracy.
 
2012-07-19 02:19:15 PM  
1940 German news headline:

"Can you believe the world has a problem with our invasions and occupations?"
 
2012-07-19 02:27:22 PM  

pxsteel: Egypt is already lost to the brotherhood. A major war between Israel and Egypt is in our not to distant future.


Michele Bachmann? Is that you?
 
2012-07-19 02:29:19 PM  

WTF Indeed: pxsteel: Egypt is already lost to the brotherhood. A major war between Israel and Egypt is in our not to distant future.

Michele Bachmann? Is that you?


Pollyanna? Is that you?
 
2012-07-19 02:44:55 PM  

OscarTamerz: I wonder if they're going to need a Muslim president, because we're going to have a spare one soon.

[www.dashikis.net image 303x399]

"Salaam alaikum, I'm President Hussein."


Well, let me stipulate for the moment your totally unsupported assertion that the president is a crypto-Muslim. Do you really think that replacing him with an openly devout Mormon president would really be an improvement? Why?
 
2012-07-19 02:59:03 PM  
 
2012-07-19 03:02:09 PM  

Ned Stark: BgJonson79: FormlessOne: WTF Indeed: No, because this is a proxy war between Iran and the Saudis over influence in the Middle East. Russia has strong ties with Iran, and if Iran's regional power is weakened, so is Russia's. The US is currently backing the Saudis, Egyptians, and Israelis. Therefore the loss of Syria would make Iran the last power base for Russia and China in the region.

And we're done. This is why the U.S. is trying to manufacture an ally-approved pretext for direct involvement in Syria.

So we shouldn't stop human rights abuses?

1) who is "we"

2) what is a human right?

3) what gave this "we" the authority to enforce these rights

4) can this "we" demonstrate to a reasonable degree that it isn't itself an abuser of "human rights" on a vast scale?


Should we let perfect be the enemy of good?
 
2012-07-19 03:14:59 PM  

BgJonson79: Ned Stark: BgJonson79: FormlessOne: WTF Indeed: No, because this is a proxy war between Iran and the Saudis over influence in the Middle East. Russia has strong ties with Iran, and if Iran's regional power is weakened, so is Russia's. The US is currently backing the Saudis, Egyptians, and Israelis. Therefore the loss of Syria would make Iran the last power base for Russia and China in the region.

And we're done. This is why the U.S. is trying to manufacture an ally-approved pretext for direct involvement in Syria.

So we shouldn't stop human rights abuses?

1) who is "we"

2) what is a human right?

3) what gave this "we" the authority to enforce these rights

4) can this "we" demonstrate to a reasonable degree that it isn't itself an abuser of "human rights" on a vast scale?

Should we let perfect be the enemy of good?


I still don't know who the hell we is.

Gonna need definitions for good and perfect too because I'm pretty damn sure we aren't working off the same ones.
 
2012-07-19 03:32:54 PM  
Or, they like their port in Syria
 
2012-07-19 03:43:59 PM  

BgJonson79: FormlessOne: WTF Indeed: No, because this is a proxy war between Iran and the Saudis over influence in the Middle East. Russia has strong ties with Iran, and if Iran's regional power is weakened, so is Russia's. The US is currently backing the Saudis, Egyptians, and Israelis. Therefore the loss of Syria would make Iran the last power base for Russia and China in the region.

And we're done. This is why the U.S. is trying to manufacture an ally-approved pretext for direct involvement in Syria.

So we shouldn't stop human rights abuses?


While that would be nice, in truth, human rights abuses = excuse to invade and take over oil production

/systematically, steadily, one by one, all the oil countries are falling to the New Order.
 
2012-07-19 03:45:50 PM  

Fano: jiaxiaobo: What's it called when it's like a democracy, but in order to vote every 4 years you have to pass a basic test covering sociology, history, government and finance. And also have done at least one nice thing for your community in that span.

What's that kind of government called because I want to live there.

[geology.utah.gov image 350x189]

Here's what the land looks like

Hint: The cops all have wooden legs


There's a land that's fair and bright,
Where the handouts grow on bushes
And you sleep out every night.
Where the boxcars all are empty
And the sun shines every day
And the birds and the bees
And the cigarette trees
The lemonade springs
Where the bluebird sings
 
2012-07-19 03:51:18 PM  

snocone: BgJonson79: FormlessOne: WTF Indeed: No, because this is a proxy war between Iran and the Saudis over influence in the Middle East. Russia has strong ties with Iran, and if Iran's regional power is weakened, so is Russia's. The US is currently backing the Saudis, Egyptians, and Israelis. Therefore the loss of Syria would make Iran the last power base for Russia and China in the region.

And we're done. This is why the U.S. is trying to manufacture an ally-approved pretext for direct involvement in Syria.

So we shouldn't stop human rights abuses?

While that would be nice, in truth, human rights abuses = excuse to invade and take over oil production

/systematically, steadily, one by one, all the oil countries are falling to the New Order.


The only true Human Right is the right to die trying.
 
2012-07-19 03:55:48 PM  

Ned Stark: BgJonson79: Ned Stark: BgJonson79: FormlessOne: WTF Indeed: No, because this is a proxy war between Iran and the Saudis over influence in the Middle East. Russia has strong ties with Iran, and if Iran's regional power is weakened, so is Russia's. The US is currently backing the Saudis, Egyptians, and Israelis. Therefore the loss of Syria would make Iran the last power base for Russia and China in the region.

And we're done. This is why the U.S. is trying to manufacture an ally-approved pretext for direct involvement in Syria.

So we shouldn't stop human rights abuses?

1) who is "we"

2) what is a human right?

3) what gave this "we" the authority to enforce these rights

4) can this "we" demonstrate to a reasonable degree that it isn't itself an abuser of "human rights" on a vast scale?

Should we let perfect be the enemy of good?

I still don't know who the hell we is.

Gonna need definitions for good and perfect too because I'm pretty damn sure we aren't working off the same ones.


We could be humanity, or the USA, or NATO, or western democracies.

What would your definitions be for good and/or perfect?
 
2012-07-19 04:06:48 PM  

BgJonson79: Ned Stark: BgJonson79: Ned Stark: BgJonson79: FormlessOne: WTF Indeed: No, because this is a proxy war between Iran and the Saudis over influence in the Middle East. Russia has strong ties with Iran, and if Iran's regional power is weakened, so is Russia's. The US is currently backing the Saudis, Egyptians, and Israelis. Therefore the loss of Syria would make Iran the last power base for Russia and China in the region.

And we're done. This is why the U.S. is trying to manufacture an ally-approved pretext for direct involvement in Syria.

So we shouldn't stop human rights abuses?

1) who is "we"

2) what is a human right?

3) what gave this "we" the authority to enforce these rights

4) can this "we" demonstrate to a reasonable degree that it isn't itself an abuser of "human rights" on a vast scale?

Should we let perfect be the enemy of good?

I still don't know who the hell we is.

Gonna need definitions for good and perfect too because I'm pretty damn sure we aren't working off the same ones.

We could be humanity, or the USA, or NATO, or western democracies.

What would your definitions be for good and/or perfect?


libertymaven.com?
 
2012-07-19 04:07:35 PM  
Perfect would be no civil war to begin with. Good would be Syria working it out for themselves.
 
2012-07-19 04:33:39 PM  

Killer Cars: czetie: I honestly don't get it.

I'm partly convinced that by backing Syria, and in general finding a way to be a pain and run contrast to what the Western powers generally want in anything, is a way to prolong any dialogue where we frustratingly ask them "okay, what do you want?" and they reply "oh, we don't want anything. BTW, how's Afghanistan going? BWAHAHAHA."

Jerks.


So Russia is to geopolitics as the GOP is to American politics?
 
2012-07-19 04:37:48 PM  
Is it just me, or is he now sporting a Hitler stache?
 
2012-07-19 04:49:42 PM  

F42: Why is Russia so adamant that the Syrian regime maintain control of Syria?

Because the only Russian naval base in the Mediterranean is in Syria.

It's that simple.


Tenga: Hmm. I thought it was because Syria was home to Russia's only Mediterranean port.


jvl: Syria leases Russia its only Mediterranean Naval Base.


Jacobin: Or, they like their port in Syria


Did anybody mention the Russian naval base yet?

If it were that simple, the West would have bought off the Russians already. A quiet word with America's friends in the region and Russia would have a port up or down the coast in return for cooperation. Maybe Lebanon would be willing to host a naval base to make its Syria problem go away. Or if Russia had accepted the inevitable and gotten itself on the right side earlier, a grateful Syrian opposition might have tolerated the Russian base.

But as things stand it's going to lose that base, and have nothing to replace it. It makes no sense.

/Next up: Russia invades Afghanistan in search of deepwater ports on the Indian Ocean
 
2012-07-19 05:04:26 PM  

czetie: F42: Why is Russia so adamant that the Syrian regime maintain control of Syria?

Because the only Russian naval base in the Mediterranean is in Syria.

It's that simple.

Tenga: Hmm. I thought it was because Syria was home to Russia's only Mediterranean port.

jvl: Syria leases Russia its only Mediterranean Naval Base.

Jacobin: Or, they like their port in Syria

Did anybody mention the Russian naval base yet?

If it were that simple, the West would have bought off the Russians already. A quiet word with America's friends in the region and Russia would have a port up or down the coast in return for cooperation. Maybe Lebanon would be willing to host a naval base to make its Syria problem go away. Or if Russia had accepted the inevitable and gotten itself on the right side earlier, a grateful Syrian opposition might have tolerated the Russian base.

But as things stand it's going to lose that base, and have nothing to replace it. It makes no sense.

/Next up: Russia invades Afghanistan in search of deepwater ports on the Indian Ocean


You think this is about countries?
This is an economic war for the World, not some petty Nationalistic crap.
 
2012-07-19 05:12:30 PM  

Sgygus: Russia already pretends to be a democracy, submitter.


Well the USA and Russia appear to have something in common, maybe we can use this at the negotiating table so we can intervene and then pretend Syria is a democracy too.
 
2012-07-19 05:53:10 PM  

czetie: Killer Cars: czetie: I honestly don't get it.

I'm partly convinced that by backing Syria, and in general finding a way to be a pain and run contrast to what the Western powers generally want in anything, is a way to prolong any dialogue where we frustratingly ask them "okay, what do you want?" and they reply "oh, we don't want anything. BTW, how's Afghanistan going? BWAHAHAHA."

Jerks.

So Russia is to geopolitics as the GOP is to American politics?


As Is said before, nashists are like teabaggers, they think that liberals ruined greatest country on Earth
 
2012-07-19 08:34:16 PM  

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: What the hell makes anyone think that the system that replaces the Alawites in Syria will be democratic? The Muslim Brotherhood has like an 80% chance of taking over, and about a 5% chance of being democratic.


The Muslim Brotherhood has like an 80% chance of taking over because the Muslim Brotherhood has like an 80% chance of winning whatever post-Civil-War elections are held. You know, the ones with all kinds of international observers and Jimmy Carter squinting at ballots. THEY'LL TAKE POWER BECAUSE OF DEMOCRACY, NOT IN SPITE OF IT. At least for the first decade or so, they're going to LOVE democracy. Why wouldn't they? They're going to win those elections fair and square!

Now, do we want that particular bunch of guys in charge of Syria, or Egypt, or Libya? Not really. The USA's ideal middle eastern leader is a secular technocrat who can keep his military from committing too many atrocities, who went to college in the states and loved it, and who routinely gets re-elected no matter how many times he bends over for the US. Unfortunately for us, most of the people fitting this description in Syria are going to be dragged out of a presidential palace and executed before they can run for office. (It's already happened in Egypt, it's in the process of happening in Libya, etc.)

For the time being, most of the new Arab Spring governments can pick exactly one item from a menu of democracy, a US-friendly government, and stability. That's not their fault; it's just the situation we're in. Well, I mean, it is their fault. But it's also ours, Russia's, your mom's, etc.
 
2012-07-19 09:02:09 PM  

semiotix: The Muslim Brotherhood has like an 80% chance of taking over because the Muslim Brotherhood has like an 80% chance of winning whatever post-Civil-War elections are held. You know, the ones with all kinds of international observers and Jimmy Carter squinting at ballots. THEY'LL TAKE POWER BECAUSE OF DEMOCRACY, NOT IN SPITE OF IT. At least for the first decade or so, they're going to LOVE democracy. Why wouldn't they? They're going to win those elections fair and square!


Your conception of democracy, and the conception of it that the Brotherhood has, are completely different. The Brotherhood would, depending on circumstances and the way they judge the situation, come to power completely peacefully and democratically. And then that would be the last free, fair election in that country's history. Why leave it to chance? Believe me, they're not as dumb as that, if they don't have to be.
 
2012-07-19 09:59:55 PM  
soon...they will all gather under the banner of the mahdi.

and we will finally have a level playing field.
 
2012-07-19 10:40:57 PM  

Big Man On Campus: Democracy has unfortunately become a meaningless word, used by politicians of all stripes to get what they want. They don't fear this word, they incorporate it into their plans.


The Greeks learned that democracy is doomed to fail.
 
2012-07-19 11:33:02 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: Big Man On Campus: Democracy has unfortunately become a meaningless word, used by politicians of all stripes to get what they want. They don't fear this word, they incorporate it into their plans.

The Greeks learned that democracy is doomed to fail.


Which is why we have a Constitutional Republic
 
2012-07-20 12:31:28 AM  

jiaxiaobo: What's it called when it's like a democracy, but in order to vote every 4 years you have to pass a basic test covering sociology, history, government and finance. And also have done at least one nice thing for your community in that span.

What's that kind of government called because I want to live there.


I think they call that a corporation......
 
2012-07-20 01:31:06 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: StoPPeRmobile: Big Man On Campus: Democracy has unfortunately become a meaningless word, used by politicians of all stripes to get what they want. They don't fear this word, they incorporate it into their plans.

The Greeks learned that democracy is doomed to fail.

Which is why we have a Constitutional Republic


If only we didn't enumerate those rights.
 
2012-07-20 02:10:22 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: StoPPeRmobile: Big Man On Campus: Democracy has unfortunately become a meaningless word, used by politicians of all stripes to get what they want. They don't fear this word, they incorporate it into their plans.

The Greeks learned that democracy is doomed to fail.

Which is why we have a Constitutional Republic


uh, I already made the republic joke way above, dude
 
2012-07-20 06:08:27 AM  

ChipNASA: BETTER DEAD THAN REDORANGE!!!!!
/wait...

 
2012-07-20 11:51:49 AM  

karl2025: pxsteel: Egypt is already lost to the brotherhood. A major war between Israel and Egypt is in our not to distant future.

I could be wrong, but I Egypt gets a lot more out of the peace treaty with Israel than Israel does.


SO THIS. It is amazing how the christian right has been crying about how a non-Mubarak Egypt would immediately lead to war. Egypt is now controlled by the brotherhood and the Gaza border is still closed.

The jackasses who said otherwise need to be called out for lying to the public.
 
2012-07-20 01:00:15 PM  
"Obvious" tag is in the hospital with acute radiation poisoning.
 
2012-07-20 01:01:29 PM  

angryjd: karl2025: pxsteel: Egypt is already lost to the brotherhood. A major war between Israel and Egypt is in our not to distant future.

I could be wrong, but I Egypt gets a lot more out of the peace treaty with Israel than Israel does.

SO THIS. It is amazing how the christian right has been crying about how a non-Mubarak Egypt would immediately lead to war. Egypt is now controlled by the brotherhood and the Gaza border is still closed.

The jackasses who said otherwise need to be called out for lying to the public.


And just where are you going to start?
All spokespersons/politicians do is lie to the public.
Always and with great conviction.
It is a skill set, all parties hire.
 
2012-07-20 02:43:48 PM  

snocone: angryjd: karl2025: pxsteel: Egypt is already lost to the brotherhood. A major war between Israel and Egypt is in our not to distant future.

I could be wrong, but I Egypt gets a lot more out of the peace treaty with Israel than Israel does.

SO THIS. It is amazing how the christian right has been crying about how a non-Mubarak Egypt would immediately lead to war. Egypt is now controlled by the brotherhood and the Gaza border is still closed.

The jackasses who said otherwise need to be called out for lying to the public.

And just where are you going to start?
All spokespersons/politicians do is lie to the public.
Always and with great conviction.
It is a skill set, all parties hire.


If you want to be a politician, you can't be a politician.

There, fixed.
 
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