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(The Hill)   Defense contractors complain they can't make a profit without taxpayer money. If only there was some sort of market that tied a corporation's profit with its performance   (thehill.com) divider line 210
    More: Fail, killer, Pratt & Whitney, EADS, carbon sequestration, House Armed Services Committee, defense contractors  
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3932 clicks; posted to Business » on 19 Jul 2012 at 1:54 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-19 05:49:41 PM

Mentat: The defense industry is conservative socialism in action.


Fascism?
 
2012-07-19 05:50:44 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Ricardo Klement: Philip Francis Queeg: Ricardo Klement: Philip Francis Queeg: [www.visitingdc.com image 505x500]\
"Did I not warn you people about this? How the fark is this coming as a surprise? Morons."

He said a military industrial complex was NECESSARY.

And that it's influence had to closely watched and minimized.

Yes. But what makes people think their influence is a driving factor? If you're a foreign affairs Realist, like Mearsheimer, special interests have zero influence on a country's decision-making when it comes to going to war.

Having worked inside the MIC for a decade, I saw nothing any different from anywhere else. Liberals, conservatives, warmongers, pacifists, and everything in between.

TFA is about the Military industrial complex attempting to use their influence to prevent military cuts.

Defense-industry executives warned a House panel on Wednesday the nation will lose hundreds of thousands of jobs if Congress does not stop $500 billion in automatic cuts to the Pentagon.


And teachers unions attempt to use their influence to prevent education cuts.

Someone should have warned us about the Education-Industrial Complex.

And let's not forget the Medical-Industrial Complex. You think bullets make money? Try prosthetics industry. I bet the medical industry has made tons more money from Iraq than Lockheed-Martin et. al.
 
2012-07-19 05:55:51 PM

Ricardo Klement: Philip Francis Queeg: Ricardo Klement: Philip Francis Queeg: Ricardo Klement: Philip Francis Queeg: [www.visitingdc.com image 505x500]\
"Did I not warn you people about this? How the fark is this coming as a surprise? Morons."

He said a military industrial complex was NECESSARY.

And that it's influence had to closely watched and minimized.

Yes. But what makes people think their influence is a driving factor? If you're a foreign affairs Realist, like Mearsheimer, special interests have zero influence on a country's decision-making when it comes to going to war.

Having worked inside the MIC for a decade, I saw nothing any different from anywhere else. Liberals, conservatives, warmongers, pacifists, and everything in between.

TFA is about the Military industrial complex attempting to use their influence to prevent military cuts.

Defense-industry executives warned a House panel on Wednesday the nation will lose hundreds of thousands of jobs if Congress does not stop $500 billion in automatic cuts to the Pentagon.

And teachers unions attempt to use their influence to prevent education cuts.

Someone should have warned us about the Education-Industrial Complex.

And let's not forget the Medical-Industrial Complex. You think bullets make money? Try prosthetics industry. I bet the medical industry has made tons more money from Iraq than Lockheed-Martin et. al.


Call me when the prosthetic industry executives testify before Congress that if enough soldiers aren't sent into mine fields jobs will be lost.

By the way, are you suffering severr brain damage from injuries received in Iraq? That's about the only thing that would account for the frightful stupidity of your last claim.
 
2012-07-19 05:55:56 PM
By 2014, we'll have a health insurance industrial complex that will be constantly whining that they can't make a profit without more and more taxpayer money and higher prices for those who don't qualify for the subsidies.

It's not socialism, it's state sponsored capitalism.
 
2012-07-19 06:02:48 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Call me when the prosthetic industry executives testify before Congress that if enough soldiers aren't sent into mine fields jobs will be lost.

By the way, are you suffering severr brain damage from injuries received in Iraq? That's about the only thing that would account for the frightful stupidity of your last claim.


Call me when a defense industry executive testifies before Congress that if enough soldiers aren't sent into war jobs will be lost.

And if you think the medical industry isn't making money hand-over-fist given the vast number of wounded, you're nuts. According to antiwar.com, over 100,000 American soldiers wounded in Iraq. That's two years of admissions at a large hospital. Now consider how many of those veterans will require LIFETIME treatment of highly specialized medical care, and pretty soon we're talking about real money.
 
2012-07-19 06:11:29 PM

Ricardo Klement: Philip Francis Queeg: Call me when the prosthetic industry executives testify before Congress that if enough soldiers aren't sent into mine fields jobs will be lost.

By the way, are you suffering severr brain damage from injuries received in Iraq? That's about the only thing that would account for the frightful stupidity of your last claim.

Call me when a defense industry executive testifies before Congress that if enough soldiers aren't sent into war jobs will be lost.

And if you think the medical industry isn't making money hand-over-fist given the vast number of wounded, you're nuts. According to antiwar.com, over 100,000 American soldiers wounded in Iraq. That's two years of admissions at a large hospital. Now consider how many of those veterans will require LIFETIME treatment of highly specialized medical care, and pretty soon we're talking about real money.


Every wounded soldier spends two years in the hospital?

We could spend 667,000 on each of those wounded soldiers for the cost of the F-22 program alone.
 
2012-07-19 06:11:52 PM
When a family can't pay their bills they don't keep spending, they fire the 5 million man private security force and make do with the local police department.
 
2012-07-19 06:25:05 PM

zarberg: Buffalo77: zarberg


What's killed more Americans in the last 20 years, a broken healthcare system or foreign enemies?

Easy, foreign enemies.


What's killed more people the last 20 years, hippos or the bible?

Wow, so foreign enemies have killed more than 45,000 people each year for the last 20 years?

I'd love to see your data on that.


45k people die because they don't get treatment....not because they dont have healthcare.

Isnt that the reason healthcare is so expensive....the 700$ aspirin is to cover the costs of those who cant pay?

Maybe you should look at your notes from the obamacare debates...im pretty sure the 700$ aspirin was a dem talking point.
 
2012-07-19 06:26:03 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Every wounded soldier spends two years in the hospital?


A large hospital, like INOVA Fairfax, admits a little under 50,000 patients a year. Some stay a day. Others, the rest of their lives.

Just like soldiers.

We could spend 667,000 on each of those wounded soldiers for the cost of the F-22 program alone.

I wasn't comparing the DoD budget. I was pointing out how much Iraq is costing. Our bullet expenses for Iraq are over. Our veterans' medical expenses will continue to accrue for another 60+ years.
 
2012-07-19 06:28:20 PM

Ricardo Klement: We could spend 667,000 on each of those wounded soldiers for the cost of the F-22 program alone.

I wasn't comparing the DoD budget. I was pointing out how much Iraq is costing. Our bullet expenses for Iraq are over. Our veterans' medical expenses will continue to accrue for another 60+ years.


Expenses largely covered by the not for profit VA system.
 
2012-07-19 06:32:10 PM
Cut defense and use the money to build bridges...

Proof that once cut the money will go to new programs so we have a zero sum game.

Why did the states take money from their transportation funds to pay for new programs when they knew the bridge was gonna eventually need repairs?

What about the states that sold the road or bridge to a foreign firm like corzine tried doing with the turnpike?
 
2012-07-19 06:38:13 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Ricardo Klement: We could spend 667,000 on each of those wounded soldiers for the cost of the F-22 program alone.

I wasn't comparing the DoD budget. I was pointing out how much Iraq is costing. Our bullet expenses for Iraq are over. Our veterans' medical expenses will continue to accrue for another 60+ years.

Expenses largely covered by the not for profit VA system.


The VA system doesn't manufacture blood plasma, prosthetics, drugs, surgical tools, MRI machines...
 
2012-07-19 06:45:50 PM
Are these the cuts we're getting because the Republican party refused to compromise? Well maybe this will teach them to compromise!

(what's the etiquette on marking your own posts 'Funny'?)
 
2012-07-19 06:46:05 PM

Evil Twin Skippy: Folks...

I don't know how to tell you this delicately... but defense spending is about the only manufacturing economy we have. Cars? Made in Mexico or Canada. Consumer goods? China. Electronics? China. Ships? Korea.

The shipbuilding industry in the US at this point ONLY exists to service the US Navy. And if we were to manufacture any fewer ships than we do now, we would cease to be able to make ships at all. It takes years to train a ship fitter.

The only anchor keeping Boeing in the United States is the fact that most of their business is with the US Government. If we stopped ordering airplanes, all of those jobs would go overseas.

And at this point, the only well paying jobs left in our economy are in those defense firms.

All I hear is "cut cut cut" and "we'll just make bridges instead." I don't hear any plans for how to deal with the utterly profound detonation that an abrupt change in defense spending would have.


Apparently finance (NYC), oil/gas (Texas/North Dakota) and tech (Silicon Valley) are overseas now. How many cans of spraypaint did you whiff this morning?
 
2012-07-19 07:03:09 PM

damageddude: Why can't the defense industry transform to build things that benefit the civilian population?


Ctrl+F: GPS = phrase not found
 
2012-07-19 07:07:31 PM

TommyymmoT: F*ck them. Seriously DIAF.
The defense budget is the most ridiculously bloated thing in history, and it's so much overkill, it's laughable.

Everybody wants to see spending cuts, just as long is it's not them that's affected.

By all means, cut health, education, and food, because we NEED a few more $10billion dollar aircraft carriers, and a trillion dollars worth of planes that don't work.

After all, TERROR!


Terror?
 
2012-07-19 07:14:42 PM

TommyymmoT: Why doesn't Boeing just have a bake sale?

Last night I saw a story about a bake sale that was being held so that some little kid could have corrective spinal surgery done.

It's pretty farked up that the richest country in the world can waste trillions on junk that will never even be used, but we can't shell out a few bucks to treat sick children.


zOMG SOOOOOOOOCIALISM!
 
2012-07-19 07:16:41 PM
ATTENTION, WINGNUTS!

Are you concerned about government spending?

Are you outraged, even?

GOOD!

NOW WHY WEREN'T YOU OUTRAGED WHEN THAT IDIOT BUSH WAS BEATING THE WAR DRUMS?
 
2012-07-19 07:26:35 PM
But I thought government spending is fundamentally incapable of creating jobs?
 
2012-07-19 07:31:05 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Ricardo Klement: We could spend 667,000 on each of those wounded soldiers for the cost of the F-22 program alone.

I wasn't comparing the DoD budget. I was pointing out how much Iraq is costing. Our bullet expenses for Iraq are over. Our veterans' medical expenses will continue to accrue for another 60+ years.

Expenses largely covered by the not for profit VA system.


Until the VA system gets voucherized along with Medicare.
 
2012-07-19 08:10:34 PM
Having worked for defense contractors most of my career, I can safely say that most of the people in this thread have no idea what the fark they're talking about.

Sure there are billion, dollar planes and multi-billion dollar carriers we may not need... but there's also the stuff I worked on - software to train our military.
The military has been using paper manuals forever to train their people and to provide guidance for everything from jet engine repair to how to set up a Jewish Chaplains' service. In the last 10-15 years they have been breaking away from that and providing interactive manuals and instruction that can be used with laptops, Androids and iPads or other devices.

The companies I worked for produced that kind of stuff, and they're "defense contractors" too, only they don't generate the OUTRAGE the F-22 does. So next time you start in on "evil defense contractors", consider that some of us are doing things like teaching Marines how to fix their helicopters out in the field, instructing sailors on how to safely operate a flight deck or nuclear reactor, showing airmen how to interpret radar, and guiding soldiers on how to stop their comrades from bleeding to death.

All good things, paid for by your tax dollars.
 
2012-07-19 08:14:56 PM

rewind2846: Having worked for defense contractors most of my career, I can safely say that most of the people in this thread have no idea what the fark they're talking about.

Sure there are billion, dollar planes and multi-billion dollar carriers we may not need... but there's also the stuff I worked on - software to train our military.
The military has been using paper manuals forever to train their people and to provide guidance for everything from jet engine repair to how to set up a Jewish Chaplains' service. In the last 10-15 years they have been breaking away from that and providing interactive manuals and instruction that can be used with laptops, Androids and iPads or other devices.

The companies I worked for produced that kind of stuff, and they're "defense contractors" too, only they don't generate the OUTRAGE the F-22 does. So next time you start in on "evil defense contractors", consider that some of us are doing things like teaching Marines how to fix their helicopters out in the field, instructing sailors on how to safely operate a flight deck or nuclear reactor, showing airmen how to interpret radar, and guiding soldiers on how to stop their comrades from bleeding to death.

All good things, paid for by your tax dollars.


NO. We're ALL just about killing brown people and selling things that go boom!
 
2012-07-19 08:27:23 PM

Lee Jackson Beauregard: ATTENTION, WINGNUTS!

Are you concerned about government spending?

Are you outraged, even?

GOOD!

NOW WHY WEREN'T YOU OUTRAGED WHEN THAT IDIOT BUSH WAS BEATING THE WAR DRUMS?


they were in a net of fear and insanity. So much for home of the brave.

Republicans are like that. Look at all their leaders, chickenhawks who love war but never showed up themselves when it was time.

And they know it. Look at Bush vs Kerry.
Kerry went to war and did his part, then he came home and did some more.
Bush? Went awol for 6 months to blow coke and never showed up for the war.
Now.. who got branded as what? It's actually pretty sickening to look back on.

And now they want to elect another Chickenhawk in Chief.

These men are cowards Donny.

Dangerous, irresponsible, war mongering (and in many cases, war profiteering) cowards. And apparently if we don't give them all our money the barbarians at the gate will get us and we'll fall into a depression... or something
 
2012-07-19 08:28:25 PM

rewind2846: Having worked for defense contractors most of my career, I can safely say that most of the people in this thread have no idea what the fark they're talking about.

Sure there are billion, dollar planes and multi-billion dollar carriers we may not need... but there's also the stuff I worked on - software to train our military.
The military has been using paper manuals forever to train their people and to provide guidance for everything from jet engine repair to how to set up a Jewish Chaplains' service. In the last 10-15 years they have been breaking away from that and providing interactive manuals and instruction that can be used with laptops, Androids and iPads or other devices.

The companies I worked for produced that kind of stuff, and they're "defense contractors" too, only they don't generate the OUTRAGE the F-22 does. So next time you start in on "evil defense contractors", consider that some of us are doing things like teaching Marines how to fix their helicopters out in the field, instructing sailors on how to safely operate a flight deck or nuclear reactor, showing airmen how to interpret radar, and guiding soldiers on how to stop their comrades from bleeding to death.

All good things, paid for by your tax dollars.


This. I helped the military better manage their land holdings, specifically land holdings on remote Pacific atolls. This evil defense contractor got a recycling program started so metal wouldn't pile up next to a pristine reef, obtained funding for a proper incinerator so the open burn pit would go away, and developed a plan so those really expensive planes wouldn't hit birds and crash, while making sure the birds didn't have to be shot to achieve goal #1 (not crashing planes).

Fun Fact: DOD land holdings contain the highest density of federally protected species on federally managed lands
One cite if you're too lazy to Google it

Not all defense contractors are evil. As a matter of fact, cuts like this are more likely to hurt the ones that don't work on blowing shiat up than those that do.
 
2012-07-19 08:31:54 PM

rewind2846: Having worked for defense contractors most of my career, I can safely say that most of the people in this thread have no idea what the fark they're talking about.

Sure there are billion, dollar planes and multi-billion dollar carriers we may not need... but there's also the stuff I worked on - software to train our military.
The military has been using paper manuals forever to train their people and to provide guidance for everything from jet engine repair to how to set up a Jewish Chaplains' service. In the last 10-15 years they have been breaking away from that and providing interactive manuals and instruction that can be used with laptops, Androids and iPads or other devices.

The companies I worked for produced that kind of stuff, and they're "defense contractors" too, only they don't generate the OUTRAGE the F-22 does. So next time you start in on "evil defense contractors", consider that some of us are doing things like teaching Marines how to fix their helicopters out in the field, instructing sailors on how to safely operate a flight deck or nuclear reactor, showing airmen how to interpret radar, and guiding soldiers on how to stop their comrades from bleeding to death.

All good things, paid for by your tax dollars.


Hurry it up with my damn Stargate already.
 
2012-07-19 08:44:09 PM
I love how this is being spun.
 
2012-07-19 08:56:24 PM

damageddude: incendi: I should clarify - a large portion goes towards employing people, and a smaller portion of that portion goes to salary. For companies that provide a physical product (we provide a service), there's a portion that goes to material acquisition, which in turn employs people elsewhere.

Why can't the defense industry transform to build things that benefit the civilian population? While I understand aircraft carriers are important to help defend the country, there is a heck of a lot of old infrastructure in this country that needs to be updated. It may be less lucrative than building a fighter jet, but developing technology to upgrade our freight rail system, for example, is useful too


Yea, and? Suppose a company did just that. Will you guarantee every freight rail company will beat a path to their doors? Will they buy it? Or should they just give that technology away like the liberals want?
 
2012-07-19 09:04:09 PM

MBrady: damageddude: incendi: I should clarify - a large portion goes towards employing people, and a smaller portion of that portion goes to salary. For companies that provide a physical product (we provide a service), there's a portion that goes to material acquisition, which in turn employs people elsewhere.

Why can't the defense industry transform to build things that benefit the civilian population? While I understand aircraft carriers are important to help defend the country, there is a heck of a lot of old infrastructure in this country that needs to be updated. It may be less lucrative than building a fighter jet, but developing technology to upgrade our freight rail system, for example, is useful too


Yea, and? Suppose a company did just that. Will you guarantee every freight rail company will beat a path to their doors? Will they buy it? Or should they just give that technology away like the liberals want?


Lots of companies develop, and build things, and hope they'll be able to sell it.
Sometimes they make money, and sometimes they don't.

I don't see Microsoft giving any technology away, and they're doing just fine.

The defense industry is the only industry I can think of that expects not only guaranteed profit, but guaranteed growth, even if what they make doesn't work, or just doesn't sell.

The liberals are not the ones with their hands out.
 
2012-07-19 09:10:55 PM

Ricardo Klement: Philip Francis Queeg: Ricardo Klement: We could spend 667,000 on each of those wounded soldiers for the cost of the F-22 program alone.

I wasn't comparing the DoD budget. I was pointing out how much Iraq is costing. Our bullet expenses for Iraq are over. Our veterans' medical expenses will continue to accrue for another 60+ years.

Expenses largely covered by the not for profit VA system.

The VA system doesn't manufacture blood plasma, prosthetics, drugs, surgical tools, MRI machines...


Oh, so you want to include the cost of all the raw materials and all of the profitst for the secondary suppliers when analyzing the cost of the wars and defense contracts?
 
2012-07-19 09:19:26 PM
Maybe we should do a "to the elbow" audit of all Defense programs first.

I bet we can save millions when kickbacks aren't going to the cronies of Congressmen.
 
2012-07-19 09:22:30 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: Oh, so you want to include the cost of all the raw materials and all of the profitst for the secondary suppliers when analyzing the cost of the wars and defense contracts?


You'd be double-counting for raw materials. You can include service contracts, though.

Ultimately, the point is that the MIC doesn't have disproportionate power.

After all, which would you rather be, a defense contractor or an oil company?
 
2012-07-19 09:24:32 PM

nmemkha: Maybe we should do a "to the elbow" audit of all Defense programs first.

I bet we can save millions when kickbacks aren't going to the cronies of Congressmen.


Less than you think. I had to delve into the acquisition process and it was a nightmare. It's worse than anyone imagines all due to the goal of avoiding waste and fraud. And there's no way to fix it. It's not that we don't need oversight, or that the oversight we have is too much or not enough. It's that the very nature of the problem is a horror story.
 
2012-07-19 09:44:13 PM

Ricardo Klement: nmemkha: Maybe we should do a "to the elbow" audit of all Defense programs first.

I bet we can save millions when kickbacks aren't going to the cronies of Congressmen.

Less than you think. I had to delve into the acquisition process and it was a nightmare. It's worse than anyone imagines all due to the goal of avoiding waste and fraud. And there's no way to fix it. It's not that we don't need oversight, or that the oversight we have is too much or not enough. It's that the very nature of the problem is a horror story.


I worked at JHUAPL as my first job out of college supporting SubTech and Joint Warfare Analysis, and I can tell you for sure the problem is on the upper end: I.E. the lobbyists, congress, and the top execs in the MIC.


Stupid personal anecdote time:

Knew of a dude who started shaving an hour off either end of his work days and taking longer and longer lunches. One day -seemingly out of the blue- three MPs showed up at his office and told him to move away from his PC and go with them. Never saw him again.

/CSB
 
2012-07-19 09:55:50 PM

zarberg: Ricardo Klement: nmemkha: Maybe we should do a "to the elbow" audit of all Defense programs first.

I bet we can save millions when kickbacks aren't going to the cronies of Congressmen.

Less than you think. I had to delve into the acquisition process and it was a nightmare. It's worse than anyone imagines all due to the goal of avoiding waste and fraud. And there's no way to fix it. It's not that we don't need oversight, or that the oversight we have is too much or not enough. It's that the very nature of the problem is a horror story.

I worked at JHUAPL as my first job out of college supporting SubTech and Joint Warfare Analysis, and I can tell you for sure the problem is on the upper end: I.E. the lobbyists, congress, and the top execs in the MIC.


Stupid personal anecdote time:

Knew of a dude who started shaving an hour off either end of his work days and taking longer and longer lunches. One day -seemingly out of the blue- three MPs showed up at his office and told him to move away from his PC and go with them. Never saw him again.

/CSB


Always good to see a douche get his comeuppance.
 
2012-07-19 10:21:16 PM

rewind2846: Having worked for defense contractors most of my career, I can safely say that most of the people in this thread have no idea what the fark they're talking about.

Sure there are billion, dollar planes and multi-billion dollar carriers we may not need... but there's also the stuff I worked on - software to train our military.
The military has been using paper manuals forever to train their people and to provide guidance for everything from jet engine repair to how to set up a Jewish Chaplains' service. In the last 10-15 years they have been breaking away from that and providing interactive manuals and instruction that can be used with laptops, Androids and iPads or other devices.

The companies I worked for produced that kind of stuff, and they're "defense contractors" too, only they don't generate the OUTRAGE the F-22 does. So next time you start in on "evil defense contractors", consider that some of us are doing things like teaching Marines how to fix their helicopters out in the field, instructing sailors on how to safely operate a flight deck or nuclear reactor, showing airmen how to interpret radar, and guiding soldiers on how to stop their comrades from bleeding to death.

All good things, paid for by your tax dollars.


You had me up until the part about teaching Marines how to fix their helicopters. Everyone knows they eject at the first sign of trouble.

5/10
 
2012-07-19 11:17:04 PM

sprawl15: This has to be part of a much broader shift in American geopolitical methods away from being the primary military force in international actions.


Stuff like this is why I have your comments in green. Well, actually you're favorited as a Clutch fan, but this justifies my preexisting conceptions of such folk.
 
2012-07-19 11:17:28 PM
Hahaha.... You military industrial complex farkers are always going on about how you are a PRIVATE industry. Its too bad you get all your money from the government. So technically your a government employee you farking idiots.
 
2012-07-19 11:29:22 PM
Government provides for defense and security. That is one of the major things it does.
 
2012-07-19 11:44:10 PM

Rebuffering: Hahaha.... You military industrial complex farkers are always going on about how you are a PRIVATE industry. Its too bad you get all your money from the government. So technically your a government employee you farking idiots.


Contractors know that. They also know that the jobs they do -used- to be done by actual military personnel until the last set of military cuts. The military can't really cut people that do war fighting tasks, so when congress says they have to draw down the number of troops, they draw down the ones that do non-fighting jobs.

However, the Air Force still needs workers out on the ramp to load and unload aircraft, fuel them up, test the fuel to make sure it meets spec, on and on...those jobs are now done by contractors, usually at higher cost to the government. The only thing they are saving is VA benefits because a contractor doing the same job a A1C used to do doesn't get VA.

The best part? The government requires the private contractors to provide similar benefits to their employees (which is usually at greater cost than military health insurance), which is billed back to the feds.

Great work, Congress!
 
2012-07-19 11:49:00 PM
FYI folks, it was actually the Tea partiers in the house who introduced the bill that would cut funding for the military advertising on Nascar and MMA. It is the bloated, out of touch, career Neocon RINOs like Lugar and Hatch who fought endlessly for unsustainable military budgets.

Build a road if you have to. Hire a teacher if there's students who need to be taught. Build a bridge if there's 2 towns that need to be connected and build a bomb if you have to blow something up.

None of these are jobs programs. In order to pay a missile engineer $80,000/yr you have to take that money out of the economy via taxation. Thats money that cant be spent by a populace that spends 1.3% more than what it takes in. Think of all the jobs that would be created if we werent paying Lockheed engineers absurd amounts of money to devise more lethal ways of blowing up sand
 
2012-07-20 12:11:55 AM
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. . . . This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron" -- Some lefty pinko socialist
 
2012-07-20 12:43:36 AM

Giltric:

You had me up until the part about teaching Marines how to fix their helicopters. Everyone knows they eject at the first sign of trouble.

5/10


The Marines I've known that fix their own helicopters are usually smarter than folks like you.
0/10
 
2012-07-20 02:09:36 AM

serial_crusher: ourbigdumbmouth: If they were true patriots, they would adjust top level salaries so less people would lose their jobs.

What, give the job creators less money with which to create jobs?


They've had 20+ years of tax cuts to create jobs. WHERE ARE THE farkING JOBS????

/Asshole.
 
2012-07-20 02:14:19 AM

Mentat: incendi: GAT_00: Well, as I see it, I'm working for another month for a powerful government body that has a measurable presence in real research and they're getting cut back bad, and they spend a fraction of what defense does. All defense spending does is employ a few people on building $180M airplanes that can't fly without crashing constantly. You can take a few cuts.

A bit more at length, since my previous response may come off as a little curt. I fully support cutting the part of the defense budget that involves building more aircraft carriers and expanding the part that supports things like R&D on the polywell fusion reactor. But when you cut or shift the budget, somebody's gonna get fired. The defense industry became so big by providing the government with services and products that the government was willing to pay for. If you eliminate the demand, yes, the companies that supply it are going to suffer, and a lot of people will lose their jobs. This really applies not only to defense, but the whole spectrum of government spending. It's merely intensified for defense spending because there's very little crossover to the civilian sector for nuclear weapons, submarines, supersonic aircraft, etc, but right now, they're keeping a lot of people employed. If you want to cut the defense budget (which I think we need), it's going to cost a lot of jobs. And that sucks, and it's not politically expedient, but that's just the way it is.

But that's the exact same argument Tea Baggers make when they want to cut entitlements. "It's too bloated! It's just a bunch of parasites sucking from the government teat!"

The defense industry is important and I hate to have people lose their jobs, but again, the Tea Party can't have it both ways. You can't say that government funding doesn't create jobs when it's spent on infrastructure but does when it's spent on defense.


Fine I won;t say it. Jobs will be lost and other jobs will be gained in the witch. But right now? We need to rebuild our infrastructure far more than we need to have a defense budget larger than the 10 next largest defense budgets in the world combined. Period. End of Motherfarking discussion. Give the money to DOT, to Forests, to NASA, to university research, and get this farking country cooking again.

/Dammit
 
2012-07-20 02:14:31 AM
I wouldn't flat out agree with GAT_00 that no company should exist that needs the government dime to be a going concern, but businesses in that situation need as much public scrutiny brought to bear on them as possible, and the question continually asked, "is this worth it?" Governments shouldn't privatize things that only the government sector is paying for - they should pursue their own efficiencies - and governments shouldn't throw good money after bad.

/The relatively newly elected conservative government in my state is getting rid of its publishing and office supply agencies. It's one of the first good decisions I think they've made.
 
2012-07-20 02:15:31 AM

my lip balm addiction: They've had 20+ years of tax cuts to create jobs. WHERE ARE THE farkING JOBS????

/Asshole.


A tax cut does nothing for a business owner's labor force if there's no demand to justify the hiring of another employee. You can make someone's tax rate zero for all I care, if there's nobody buying his product, he wont hire people to make it. Supply side economics is a component of this argument but it isn't a be-all end all.

A strong middle class would be a good start. If you've been grocery shopping or bought gas recently, you'll see where most of people's paychecks are going.
 
2012-07-20 05:52:56 AM

my lip balm addiction: We need to rebuild our infrastructure


Im sorry but what exactly is wrong with our infrastructure?
 
2012-07-20 06:37:47 AM

TommyymmoT: MBrady: damageddude: incendi: I should clarify - a large portion goes towards employing people, and a smaller portion of that portion goes to salary. For companies that provide a physical product (we provide a service), there's a portion that goes to material acquisition, which in turn employs people elsewhere.

Why can't the defense industry transform to build things that benefit the civilian population? While I understand aircraft carriers are important to help defend the country, there is a heck of a lot of old infrastructure in this country that needs to be updated. It may be less lucrative than building a fighter jet, but developing technology to upgrade our freight rail system, for example, is useful too


Yea, and? Suppose a company did just that. Will you guarantee every freight rail company will beat a path to their doors? Will they buy it? Or should they just give that technology away like the liberals want?

Lots of companies develop, and build things, and hope they'll be able to sell it.
Sometimes they make money, and sometimes they don't.

I don't see Microsoft giving any technology away, and they're doing just fine.

The defense industry is the only industry I can think of that expects not only guaranteed profit, but guaranteed growth, even if what they make doesn't work, or just doesn't sell.

The liberals are not the ones with their hands out.


I don't see the government stepping up and building aircraft carriers, fighter planes, etc.

EVERY industry expects a profit. if not, that industry/business is fooling themselves. Every entrepreneur expects to a profit from their investment. Otherwise, why go into business in the first place?

"Guaranteed profit?" Really? There are TONS of projects that are developed using capital money that are never built. There are also TONS of projects that the government asks "can you build this?" and companies will say, "Sure, but we need some NRE money."

No, the liberals are the ones that think that because a company makes a profit, that profit should be shared with everyone - unless it's a liberal politician, then they want to make as much as they can, and screw the poor people, as much as they can, all while saying "I'm helping the poor people."
 
2012-07-20 07:55:05 AM

Mentat: Thoguh: Yeah, let's fire all the engineers in the country, right! Because when money is spent on defense it is just burned and not at all used as paychecks for an educated workforce of engineers and scientists. Nope. Certainly not.

But it's ok to fire all the teachers and policemen and firemen and such, right? You can't have it both ways. The defense industry is conservative socialism in action.


Defense budget is federal, while teachers et al are state and local.
 
2012-07-20 08:07:05 AM
Funny, through all this no one suggested giving all that money back to the people who originally gave it to the gov: The tax payers. So, fine, gut defense, but every last penny should be returned to the tax payers.
 
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