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(New York Daily News)   Sanity returns to the Garden as the Knicks decide not to pay $25M for a point guard who was released by two teams and then only played 35 games for them   (nydailynews.com ) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Knicks, Jeremy Lin, offer sheet, rockets, New York, Mike Woodson, Marcus Camby, luxury tax  
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1202 clicks; posted to Sports » on 18 Jul 2012 at 2:20 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-18 07:23:54 PM  
only sort of on topic since it includes melo, but i wanted to share this photo

a.espncdn.com
 
2012-07-18 07:27:38 PM  

TheJoe03: It's the biggest sport in China.


All the more reason why I find it so puzzling that Dolan suddenly gets an attack of being fiscally responsible for a change.
 
2012-07-18 07:53:24 PM  

A Fark Handle: what, exact, did lin do last season to make it inevitable that he will suck going forward?


This game right here.

Miami was the first to figure out not only how to shut him down, but to completely make him their biatch. The rest of the league will learn soon enough.

Lin being unavailable for the first round against Miami was the best thing that ever could have happened to him, moneywise.
 
2012-07-18 08:09:00 PM  

Gulper Eel: A Fark Handle: what, exact, did lin do last season to make it inevitable that he will suck going forward?

This game right here.

Miami was the first to figure out not only how to shut him down, but to completely make him their biatch. The rest of the league will learn soon enough.

Lin being unavailable for the first round against Miami was the best thing that ever could have happened to him, moneywise.


See, when he plays well, 25 games is not a big enough of a sample size.

But if he plays poorly for 1 game? We just KNOW 100% that's how he'll play for the rest of his career!

NO other player has people saying that kind of bullshiat about him. NO other player who has the skills and who has shown a solid game has people just assuming he's a one-trick pony to be "figured out" because hey, it can't be hard work and solid fundamental ability, right?
 
2012-07-18 08:17:04 PM  
Personally, I think this is a totally stupid move by the Knicks because Lin pays for himself (MSG stock tanked more than his contract after people heard they were dropping Lin) AND, even if you dislike him, you can probably trade his contract. It isn't Lin or 25 million to spend on other people, it is Lin or nothing based on the CBA.

That said, I also think that the Rockets made a dumb move. Lin on the Knicks in a city with a ton of Asian-Americans is money making machine. Lin on a shiatty (unless they get Howard, but even then...) Rockets team in Houston will not have sustained Linsanity unless he turns out to be an all star... but I think he is probably, all factors considered, merely an okay starting PG at best.

Okay PG on a shiatty team in Houston is not going to be bringing in tons of money to the Rockets. People will forget about him in a few months.
 
2012-07-18 08:20:06 PM  

damageddude: I can't really blame Lin for bailing on NY. We're usually not too nice to our stars (we've booed Mantle, Ewing, Strawberry, A-Rod etc). If Lin was just average for the Knicks after signing such a huge contract the fans would have been all over his ass faster than some writer on ESPN can make a Lin-sanity joke.


I wouldnt' say Lin "bailed." By all counts he WANTED to stay in NYC (as he should, much better for maximizing his earnings). He just assumed the Knicks would match any offer.
 
2012-07-18 08:25:51 PM  

the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.


Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.
 
2012-07-18 08:32:47 PM  
I think it's more about Asian Americans and casual fans that drove Linsanity, not so much China or even Tawain. Hell, it seemed a lot non-black fans (black fans as well, but my point is irrelevant with that group) got hyped up for it, made it seem like more people had a shot at the NBA. Yao Ming never had major support from American fans while Lin's support is almost entirely American. He's like the Asian American Rudy or something.
 
2012-07-18 08:38:03 PM  

Dafatone: Carmelo and Amare add up to what, nearly 40m a year? Between the two of them, they help the Knicks win slightly.


Slightly? Before D'Antoni, then Amare, then Melo came on board (obviously D'An is gone now, but...) the knicks were .280 winning percentage. last season they were .545
 
2012-07-18 08:42:08 PM  

Bill Frist: the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.

Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.


Warning, broad generalization about a group of people I've lived among ahead:

Have you ever lived in an Asian immigrant community? They literally try to colonize neighborhoods and use newspapers in their native languages to reach that end. Extremely insular, they won't give a white neighbor a cup of sugar because they're scared you won't return the cup. On craigslist or taped to a telephone pole: "1BR Apt 4 rent Bayside $500 Chinese only." Which is a damned shame because that's a bargain. Asian neighborhoods have low crime and good public schools =)

Tangentially related, I have a suspicion my Filipino friends worship the ground Pacquiao walks on.
 
2012-07-18 08:43:57 PM  

Bill Frist: the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.

Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.


When it comes to rooting for players the Chinese are like anybody else. They aren't going to root for somebody just because they are Chinese or Asian. If the person isn't good or is a bench warmer they aren't going to pay them any attention.

The Knicks knew what they had in Lin, a guy that may be marginally better than Yi Jianlin, and were willing to pay some money to see if the hype would pay off for them. But what they weren't willing to do was pay $25 million for a guy who is going to be a 7 minute a night guy. And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him. The only reason why I think the Rockets took the gamble is because they figure they can cash in whether or not he is good because they have already made inroads into China and connected with Asian fans because of Yao.
 
2012-07-18 08:49:31 PM  

ongbok: Bill Frist: the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.

Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.

When it comes to rooting for players the Chinese are like anybody else. They aren't going to root for somebody just because they are Chinese or Asian. If the person isn't good or is a bench warmer they aren't going to pay them any attention.

The Knicks knew what they had in Lin, a guy that may be marginally better than Yi Jianlin, and were willing to pay some money to see if the hype would pay off for them. But what they weren't willing to do was pay $25 million for a guy who is going to be a 7 minute a night guy. And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him. The only reason why I think the Rockets took the gamble is because they figure they can cash in whether or not he is good because they have already made inroads into China and connected with Asian fans because of Yao.


That's what I meant but I ended up talking about how Asians like their own just like everyone else. ::shrug:: But yeah, you have to be good, not just any bum Asian dude.
 
2012-07-18 08:50:46 PM  

TheJoe03: Don't forget, the run Lin made allowed the Knicks to even get into playoff position, the Knicks were garbage before he came in and garbage when he got hurt.


IIRC, the Knicks were a little under .500 without Lin (and something like .600 with him for that stretch.) Even at at .500 he Knicks would have been 8th seed and, through sheer luck, done better likely because Rose got injured on the Bulls.
 
2012-07-18 08:52:51 PM  

IHadMeAVision: That's what I meant but I ended up talking about how Asians like their own just like everyone else. ::shrug:: But yeah, you have to be good, not just any bum Asian dude.


Well yeah, my point is that if he sucks (or is okay but on a shiatty team) I don't think he will be that big of a deal. I think his support was more from asian-americans and causal US fans than Asian fans anyway. Maybe Rockets, through their Yao Ming past, can change that, but...
 
2012-07-18 08:54:17 PM  
The Knicks were imploding before Lin got there, he turned their season around. The Bucks would have been the 8 seed without him.
 
2012-07-18 08:56:59 PM  

Bill Frist: the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.

Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.



Ahem.

One measure of Lin's appeal in China: According to the NBA, last Friday's game between the Knicks and the Los Angeles Lakers -- a contest in which Lin scored 38 points while outplaying Lakers' star Kobe Bryant -- set a viewership record for live programming on China's Sina web portal, which has a live streaming agreement with the NBA. The NBA declined to reveal specific traffic numbers for the game.

Link
 
2012-07-18 09:03:28 PM  

TheJoe03: The Knicks were imploding before Lin got there, he turned their season around. The Bucks would have been the 8 seed without him.


possibly (although again, they would have made playoffs keeping their win percentage from non-Lin games) but that doesn't really say much about whether orn ot he will be good or the Knicks need him now. I'm not big on Felton or aging Kidd, but the knicks had NO ONE running point last year before Lin. Amazing they won as many as they did without him.
 
2012-07-18 09:08:08 PM  

ongbok: And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him.


Am I seriously reading this? You think defenses weren't paying attention to him in the games he was playing well? Defenses had to completely plan their game around him to get any kind of result, and even then he was still pretty good. The Miami game was ONE game, and if 25 games isn't a big enough sample size, 1 game certainly isn't a big enough sample size. Plus you're assuming a 23 year old player has a 100% chance of peaking in his first 25 starts? That's beyond insane.

I swear, you put an Asian guy shorter than 7 feet in an NBA uniform and everyone just goes bonkers.
 
2012-07-18 09:09:48 PM  

Bill Frist: TheJoe03: The Knicks were imploding before Lin got there, he turned their season around. The Bucks would have been the 8 seed without him.

possibly (although again, they would have made playoffs keeping their win percentage from non-Lin games) but that doesn't really say much about whether orn ot he will be good or the Knicks need him now. I'm not big on Felton or aging Kidd, but the knicks had NO ONE running point last year before Lin. Amazing they won as many as they did without him.


I actually agree that they were imploding. Look at the list of teams the Knicks lost to pre-Linsanity. It's horrifying. I mean, the Bobcats are on it.

/the Bobcats!
 
2012-07-18 09:17:45 PM  
Knicks were in a horrible stretch before Lin (and his stretch was super exciting!), but they were still more or less on track for the 8th seed. And in the games after Lin went down, they went 12-5. Not really sure I'd call them "garbage after" he left. Unless you are counting the playoffs when they lost 4-1 to eventual champs Miami while suffering a ton of injuries.
 
2012-07-18 09:30:56 PM  
FireZs: ongbok: And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him.

Am I seriously reading this? You think defenses weren't paying attention to him in the games he was playing well? Defenses had to completely plan their game around him to get any kind of result, and even then he was still pretty good. The Miami game was ONE game, and if 25 games isn't a big enough sample size, 1 game certainly isn't a big enough sample size. Plus you're assuming a 23 year old player has a 100% chance of peaking in his first 25 starts? That's beyond insane.

I swear, you put an Asian guy shorter than 7 feet in an NBA uniform and everyone just goes bonkers.


Nope defenses weren't paying attention to him. They played him very loosely and concentrated on other players. They treated him like a first year unknown who they weren't concerned with.When he started putting up points consistently and some teams decided they didn't want to be part of the Lin show, they started throwing other guys at him and throwing different defenses at him like they would do with more experience players, and guess what, his scoring went way down and his turnovers, which were already high, went up. Miami was just one team that did this, other teams also did it. And no teams didn't have to plan their entire strategy to stop him, it just involved throwing different looks and people at him.
 
2012-07-18 09:45:26 PM  
FireZs: But if he plays poorly for 1 game? We just KNOW 100% that's how he'll play for the rest of his career!

NO other player has people saying that kind of bullshiat about him. NO other player who has the skills and who has shown a solid game has people just assuming he's a one-trick pony to be "figured out" because hey, it can't be hard work and solid fundamental ability, right?


ongbok puts it better than I do. His game is far from solid. That Miami game was the start of teams having figured out Lin's many weaknesses. He may thrive briefly against western teams that haven't seen him in person yet, but I will be stunned if he averages better than 10 points and five assists a game in the coming year.

The book on Lin is a lot like the book on thousands of triple-A sluggers who look like Willie Mays until somebody throws them a curveball.
 
2012-07-18 09:48:48 PM  
ongbok: Nope defenses weren't paying attention to him. They played him very loosely and concentrated on other players. They treated him like a first year unknown who they weren't concerned with.When he started putting up points consistently and some teams decided they didn't want to be part of the Lin show, they started throwing other guys at him and throwing different defenses at him like they would do with more experience players, and guess what, his scoring went way down and his turnovers, which were already high, went up. Miami was just one team that did this, other teams also did it. And no teams didn't have to plan their entire strategy to stop him, it just involved throwing different looks and people at him.

Yeah, and you think that because his numbers went down, he should be a 7 minute/game bench warmer (never mind that he was already doing better right before he was injured). His numbers were still better than Kidd or Felton even after teams "figured him out," but somehow, unlike every other 23 year old NBA player, he has a 0% chance of improving, and defenses will magically be able to reduce his production to near zero? Please. This is beyond exaggeration, it's derangement.
 
2012-07-18 09:53:54 PM  
Gulper Eel: ongbok puts it better than I do. His game is far from solid. That Miami game was the start of teams having figured out Lin's many weaknesses. He may thrive briefly against western teams that haven't seen him in person yet, but I will be stunned if he averages better than 10 points and five assists a game in the coming year.

The book on Lin is a lot like the book on thousands of triple-A sluggers who look like Willie Mays until somebody throws them a curveball.


Oh really. So single-handedly winning that game against the Sixers (no defensive slouches) long after teams have "figured him out" just magically doesn't count somehow? Also, once again, why is he the ONLY 23 year old NBA player who has a ZERO percent chance of improvement?
 
2012-07-18 10:04:53 PM  

FireZs: So single-handedly winning that game against the Sixers


Stoudemire led the team with 21 that night and Lin was 4-17 from the field with 4 assists. Lin saved himself that night going 10-10 from the line.
 
2012-07-18 10:18:02 PM  
ongbok: And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him.

considering lin did much of what he did when melo and/or amare were hurt, what exactly were the defenses paying attention to during those game? the girls on the dance team? lin's pick and roll game with tyson chandler was solid.

lin's a sold back-up at least. sure miami's d contained him one night, but miami can contain kd.
 
2012-07-18 10:39:49 PM  

Gulper Eel: FireZs: So single-handedly winning that game against the Sixers

Stoudemire led the team with 21 that night and Lin was 4-17 from the field with 4 assists. Lin saved himself that night going 10-10 from the line.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. Bad stats are gold-plated indicators of the truth, while good stats are misleading and should be explained away. Going into the 4th quarter of that game it was a 1-point game that could've gone either way. Lin was the one who stepped up and won that game for them. Yeah, some of those points were free throws, but 4 of those free throw points were were from him getting into the paint, not clock-stopping fouls by the sixers.

And, yet once again, why do you think that he's the only 23 yr old NBA player that can never improve?
 
2012-07-18 10:46:07 PM  

FireZs: And, yet once again, why do you think that he's the only 23 yr old NBA player that can never improve?


I think there is a good chances Lin can improve and be good. But while Lin "haters" might ignore good stats for bad ones, the same is true of Lin superfans. Lin didn't seem particularly impressive to scouts or in college. He wasn't a starter as a rookie, but he did get minutes, and didn't get good stats. And while I love D'Antoni, he has a track record of making PGs look way better than they are. Hell, Chris DUHON (!!!) looked good for awhile under D'Anotni before breaking down. The latter I think actually might compare to Lin. His game seems like the type that might break down if he is forced to play 82 games a year.

And the fact that when he looked best was when Amare and Melo were injured in part just means he looks good when there aren't better players on the floor to take the shots. That's true of most players.

Again, I'm not saying he can't be good. It is hard to know. But there ARE legit reasons to doubt.
 
2012-07-18 10:58:21 PM  

A Fark Handle: ongbok: And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him.

considering lin did much of what he did when melo and/or amare were hurt, what exactly were the defenses paying attention to during those game? the girls on the dance team? lin's pick and roll game with tyson chandler was solid.

lin's a sold back-up at least. sure miami's d contained him one night, but miami can contain kd.


Actually Mello only missed the first 8 games, and Amare missed the first 4 games that Lin started. So during the 4 games that they were both out the Knicks did have other players on the team, like Chandler and Davis, that I'm pretty sure teams were more worried about than a completely unknown guard from the developmental league. And there where more teams that contained Lin than Miami.
 
2012-07-18 11:02:14 PM  

FireZs: This is exactly what I'm talking about. Bad stats are gold-plated indicators of the truth, while good stats are misleading and should be explained away. Going into the 4th quarter of that game it was a 1-point game that could've gone either way. Lin was the one who stepped up and won that game for them. Yeah, some of those points were free throws, but 4 of those free throw points were were from him getting into the paint, not clock-stopping fouls by the sixers.


4-17 is a bad game. If he hadn't shot like total shiat, maybe they would have been up by 10 starting the 4th instead of it being a one point game. If you make one shot the whole game, and it's at the buzzer to win, you didn't singlehandedly win the game.

I think Lin will be a useful player. I don't think he's going to be a star but he should be a useful starter. Is that worth $60M including luxury tax to the Knicks, when his skills and Melo's skills don't really mesh? I don't think so.
 
2012-07-18 11:07:50 PM  

steamingpile: you have pee hands: The Knicks have absolutely zero chance to win a title in the next three years with or without Lin.

Jersey sales and knicks on TV would go up immensely though, there is no denying that they were a better team with him out there, carmelo is proving just how useless he really is.


I'm pretty sure jersey sales and international income is split 30 ways amongst the teams. He increased the value of the MSG brand but I'm not sure how useful that is because Dolan clearly isn't looking to sell. He's not going to sell more tickets because they sell out anyway. He probably provides some more marketing opportunities and TV viewers locally in the short term but will people get bored after half a season if it turns out he's above average but flawed, and the Knicks are a .500 team again? My extensive research suggests there's a lot to do in New York and everyone's got a very short attention span.

I'm sure Stern loves the hell out of Lin, and the guy is worth a lot to the NBA, but I'm not sure he's worth as much to the Knicks as people think.
 
2012-07-18 11:26:57 PM  

Bill Frist: Again, I'm not saying he can't be good. It is hard to know. But there ARE legit reasons to doubt.


Yeah, if you say that he's an ok player who's good enough to start and might be great or not so great in the future I would have no argument with that. It's the "he's going to be just a little better than yi jianlin" "he'll never average more than 10 pts/5 assists ever again" "he'll be playing 7 minutes a game soon enough" comments that I think are batshiat crazy.
 
2012-07-18 11:31:22 PM  

you have pee hands: FireZs: This is exactly what I'm talking about. Bad stats are gold-plated indicators of the truth, while good stats are misleading and should be explained away. Going into the 4th quarter of that game it was a 1-point game that could've gone either way. Lin was the one who stepped up and won that game for them. Yeah, some of those points were free throws, but 4 of those free throw points were were from him getting into the paint, not clock-stopping fouls by the sixers.

4-17 is a bad game. If he hadn't shot like total shiat, maybe they would have been up by 10 starting the 4th instead of it being a one point game. If you make one shot the whole game, and it's at the buzzer to win, you didn't singlehandedly win the game.

I think Lin will be a useful player. I don't think he's going to be a star but he should be a useful starter. Is that worth $60M including luxury tax to the Knicks, when his skills and Melo's skills don't really mesh? I don't think so.


Sure, I don't dispute that. But I bring that game up not as an argument that he's an all-star, but to counter the notion that teams have him "figured out" and he'll never meaningfully score on a defense again. If that's true then there's no way Lin can do what he did in the 4th quarter of that game, since the sixers already "figured him out" for the first 3 quarters. I'm sure you'll agree that being realistic about his abilities includes not going crazy on the downside either.
 
2012-07-18 11:59:39 PM  
People are missing how this whole thing went down:

1) Knicks told Lin he had to go set a market before they would give him an offer
2) Rockets initially were offering Lin a 4 yr deal with $5 million, $5.2 million, $9.3 million, $9.3 million. The fourth year was a team option. Lin verbally said he would sign this deal.
3) Knicks made a huge show of talking how they would match this offer
4) All this talk ended up causing Houston to up the deal that Lin actually signed so that it was $14.8 million in that third year.

The Knicks should have initially offered Lin a 3 or 4 year deal @5 million per year. I have no idea why you wouldn't be willing to pay him that much over that time span. Since they inexplicably didn't even give him an offer, they should have then kept their mouths shut after Houston came out with their offer.

Assuming that the Knicks would have been willing to pay him $5 mill per year, then that 3rd year of the original Houston deal only amounts to costing the Knicks somewhere between $4-$8 million more than they would have given him anyway ($4 if they somehow aren't over the cap, $8 if they are) That's certainly palatable, since the 4th year is a team option, they could dump him after the 3rd if he didn't pan out.

Instead they talk so much about matching that Houston comes in and offers $5.5 million more in the 3rd year, which now places that cap hit at $9.5-$19 million. That's a much tougher decision to make, and at that price the Knicks are making the right move to let him go. However, it's their own fault that they even had to make that decision since they could have played this whole thing differently. Typical Knicks I guess.
 
2012-07-19 12:16:17 AM  

Gulper Eel: He may thrive briefly against western teams that haven't seen him in person yet, but I will be stunned if he averages better than 10 points and five assists a game in the coming year.


Except for one thing: he's a Harvard kid, so some assessors seem to be banking on his ability to outsmart other players and adapt to their adaptations.

I'm not saying they're right, or being even remotely sensible (I've known too many Harvard kids in my day to take the school seriously or as anything like the monolithic bastion of brilliance it purports to be), But that seems to be the subtext in some appraisals of Lin's future: he's a smart enough person and a smart enough player that he can continue to be useful even after games when it looks as though other teams have solved his game, because he'll switch it up to counter their changes. It's a gamble, and not one I'm sure is worth making at that cost to the 'bockers, but it'll be an interesting experiment.
 
2012-07-19 12:20:34 AM  

roncofooddehydrator: The Knicks should have initially offered Lin a 3 or 4 year deal @5 million per year. I have no idea why you wouldn't be willing to pay him that much over that time span. Since they inexplicably didn't even give him an offer, they should have then kept their mouths shut after Houston came out with their offer.


I do agree with this ALTHOUGH i'm not sure why so many commentators assume Lin would have taken whatever low offer the Knicks set out. He seems like he wanted to get paid--and I don't blame him for that. You gotta get your contract while you are healthy and able--so why wouldn't he have tested the market anyway?
 
2012-07-19 01:11:35 AM  

Bill Frist: roncofooddehydrator: The Knicks should have initially offered Lin a 3 or 4 year deal @5 million per year. I have no idea why you wouldn't be willing to pay him that much over that time span. Since they inexplicably didn't even give him an offer, they should have then kept their mouths shut after Houston came out with their offer.

I do agree with this ALTHOUGH i'm not sure why so many commentators assume Lin would have taken whatever low offer the Knicks set out. He seems like he wanted to get paid--and I don't blame him for that. You gotta get your contract while you are healthy and able--so why wouldn't he have tested the market anyway?


He many not have accepted an offer from the Knicks and tested the market anyway, but then PR-wise the Knicks would have come out ok since they would have made an attempt. The way things played out, it looks like they couldn't be bothered to come up with an idea on how much Lin was worth to them and were either lying about matching the initial Houston offer or were so bad at navigating free agency that they let Houston get the better of them.
 
2012-07-19 02:47:53 AM  

FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.

Let me guess...you are Asian right?
/I'm Asian too but I don't care..
 
2012-07-19 04:20:17 AM  

ongbok: So during the 4 games that they were both out the Knicks did have other players on the team, like Chandler and Davis, that I'm pretty sure teams were more worried about than a completely unknown guard from the developmental league.


yeah everyone fears the offensive powers of chandler and davis...while you're at it why not claim that jr smith was a dangerous scorer too. i respect chandler's pnr offense when combined with a good pnr pg, but he's not exactly a threat otherwise.

/as if teams need 4 games to a make adjustments.
//guard who's beating you in the first quarter...
 
2012-07-19 04:51:07 AM  

Bill Frist: He seems like he wanted to get paid--and I don't blame him for that. You gotta get your contract while you are healthy and able--so why wouldn't he have tested the market anyway?


If he wanted to get paid, he's had many, many endorsement deals that he's turned down that would have paid him way more than he'll ever earn in the NBA.

The Knicks basically told Lin to go test the market, so he does. Houston comes up with an offer that he says he'd sign. NY makes a big brouhaha about matching that one. Houston changes its offer; I don't believe they submitted that first offer officially for him to sign. Lin signs the one offer he's been officially given (what else is he going to do?). Dolan gets pissed and now introducing the starting PG for the NY Knicks, Raymond Felton.

Stupid thing is Lin would have almost certainly signed a $5 mil per year for 3 year deal from NY. But they never offered it. They said, "go figure out your value" and he did.
 
2012-07-19 08:07:38 AM  

balleravenue: FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.
Let me guess...you are Asian right?
/I'm Asian too but I don't care..


Nope. Whiter than white.
 
2012-07-19 09:06:35 AM  
It's a no-Lin situation.
 
2012-07-19 09:26:56 AM  

Moopy Mac: Yes it is entirely off base. The absolute MAXIMUM that last year would cost the Knicks would be $43MM. Deadspin did an article stating that it would be $58MM, then went back and corrected it to $43MM after correcting misinformation they had about the Knicks' salary cap situation last year.


Ah, took the wrong info from the original article then. Still, $43 million is ridiculous for a mediocre point guard.

xpisblack: Except for one thing: he's a Harvard kid, so some assessors seem to be banking on his ability to outsmart other players and adapt to their adaptations.


Because for some reason people can't understand that athletic smarts and book smarts aren't the same thing. Lin wasn't particularly great even in the Ivy League.

So it's a case of whether you believe a guy who never shined in HS, college, or with any of his teams in the NBA for several years...is that more like what he is, or are we to believe that he's going to continue to perform more like he performed in a few weeks against miserable competition in an incredibly point-guard-friendly offense? Oh, and he's coming back from knee surgery now.

TheJoe03: The Knicks were imploding before Lin got there, he turned their season around. The Bucks would have been the 8 seed without him.


Too bad, because they could've maybe won the lottery and gotten a good draft pick - even No. 1 overall would've cost them less in salary than Lin. Take Davis, maybe trade Chandler back to Dallas, get a lot more cap room?
 
2012-07-19 09:34:14 AM  

FireZs: Sure, I don't dispute that. But I bring that game up not as an argument that he's an all-star, but to counter the notion that teams have him "figured out" and he'll never meaningfully score on a defense again. If that's true then there's no way Lin can do what he did in the 4th quarter of that game, since the sixers already "figured him out" for the first 3 quarters. I'm sure you'll agree that being realistic about his abilities includes not going crazy on the downside either.


Well, pretty much everyone in the NBA can score some points if you don't worry about efficiency. I think Lin will probably be ok. It's just weird to take a game where he went 4-17 as an example that teams haven't 'figured him out'.

Also, as good as the 6ers are defensively their crunch time offense is cover-your-eyes terrible, so coming back against them isn't that unlikely.
 
2012-07-19 09:39:12 AM  
The Knicks also signed Pablo Priggioni. He's probably better than Lin.
 
2012-07-19 10:36:23 AM  

IAmRight: xpisblack: Except for one thing: he's a Harvard kid, so some assessors seem to be banking on his ability to outsmart other players and adapt to their adaptations.

Because for some reason people can't understand that athletic smarts and book smarts aren't the same thing. Lin wasn't particularly great even in the Ivy League.

So it's a case of whether you believe a guy who never shined in HS, college, or with any of his teams in the NBA for several years...is that more like what he is, or are we to believe that he's going to continue to perform more like he performed in a few weeks against miserable competition in an incredibly point-guard-friendly offense? Oh, and he's coming back from knee surgery now.


He was good in college. Just not amazing, and a large part of that is that he didn't have much to work with around him. When he was going well for the Knicks, it was clear he does a good job facilitating. Hard to do that when everyone else kinda sucks.

Plus, he had a better team in his conference: Link

/had to get that in there.
 
2012-07-19 10:47:11 AM  

Dafatone: He was good in college. Just not amazing,


My goal with that was a) to point out that it's not like he even dominated the Ivy League - so it's kinda silly to expect him to be a top NBA player. He really showed nothing until those few games with the Knicks, so is it more likely that he's not that great, as every bit of his career outside of 20 or so games shows? Or is it that he's as good as those 20 games showed? I tend toward believing the former.

And b) to allow you to point out what you pointed out!
 
2012-07-19 11:14:12 AM  

IAmRight: Because for some reason people can't understand that athletic smarts and book smarts aren't the same thing. Lin wasn't particularly great even in the Ivy League.

So it's a case of whether you believe a guy who never shined in HS, college, or with any of his teams in the NBA for several years...is that more like what he is, or are we to believe that he's going to continue to perform more like he performed in a few weeks against miserable competition in an incredibly point-guard-friendly offense? Oh, and he's coming back from knee surgery now.


Kind of my point-- such a big deal was made of his being Asian and from Harvard, some folks started to think that those two things actually said something about his talent. Being Asian certainly helped his bankability; being from Harvard and in the NBA during the same year that Harvard made the NCAA tournament for the first time in, what, 65+ years? made people tend to overstate his ability. Never mind that none of his university teams ever made the tournament, he was coached by the same guy who eventually got the school into the tournament and Lin's presence in the NBA may be a factor in the school's ability to get good players in future, so he retroactively gets some credit from some. Not his fault, of course, but it's a little silly.

That said, I disagree with your claim that he didn't shine in high school or the Ivy League. I mean, he wasn't jaw-dropping, but he was the standout player on his 32-1 high school team and led them to victory in the California D--II championship over the heavily favoured Mater Dei. After a pretty crappy freshman year in college, he improved and kept improving. He wound up a two-time All-Ivy First Team selection (each time a unanimous choice) and set some records at Harvard. He was also the first person in Ivy League history to score at least 1450 points, 450 rebounds, 400 assists, and 200 steals. In his junior year, he was the only D-I player to be in the top ten for his conference in basically every category-- points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots, FG%, FT%, and 3PT%. Some of these are carefully selected numbers, to be sure, and no one would confuse him with the second coming of Bill Bradley to the Ivy, but he did get some attention in university (including by coaches at schools with better teams and by some NBA scouts). Of course, it's the Ivy League, so maybe the numbers are a little soft, even though Harvard were nationally ranked this year (24th, I think). But Lin was supposed to be good because he was versatile-- there was no part of the game he couldn't play pretty well. So, now some assessors figure: not only is he smart (Harvard), he's basketball smart (versatile and adaptable). And maybe that's worth some risk, they figure.

Now, I'm not saying he's a star-calibre player. I'm not saying I agree with any of those assessments-- again, I think the school-related mystique is stupid. I'm not even saying Lin's even that good at all. I'm just saying that if some of his value lies in his ability to play any of several roles at a reasonably high level and to adapt sort of quickly, then maybe teams hope that he'll be able to help them out by not letting other teams shut him down for long or more than once. And some of that reputation he's earned over the years, and some comes from the silly presumption of exceptional adaptive intelligence that comes from his having gone to a smart-kid school like Harvard.

And I agree with your first bit, the one about athletic intelligence being different to academic intelligence and people sometimes not grasping that. But that said, give me a choice between two equally talented players, I'll take the smarter one every time.
 
2012-07-19 11:28:37 AM  

xpisblack: And I agree with your first bit, the one about athletic intelligence being different to academic intelligence and people sometimes not grasping that. But that said, give me a choice between two equally talented players, I'll take the smarter one every time.


Of course...though I gotta say it somewhat depends on salary.

As for the standing out, I'd just point out that pretty much everyone in the NBA was the best player on their HS team and pretty much all of 'em won some state titles, so that's not a huge deal - I will say that Lin was better than I was making him out to be - he did, after all, have offers to walk-on at other places and chose Harvard because they said he'd play on their basketball team. So he could've gone to a better basketball school. And I will mention that I'm sure race did play a role in his being considered lightly coming out of HS.

But ultimately, he hasn't been spectacular and a lot of people are ignoring the fact that knee surgery ended his year last year and he averaged only 26 minutes/game - he still hasn't played more than half an NBA season ever. That's a lot of money to offer a guy at this point with his track record.

As for comparing him to Felton, Felton costs way less and also performed well in NYC. From a recent Washington Post article:

"In each of the last two seasons a New York Knicks point guard has averaged double figures in scoring and led the team in assists per game. Here's a look at their respective numbers.

Player A: 14.6 ppg, 6.2 apg, 3.1 rpg, 3.6 tpg

Player B: 17.1 ppg, 9 apg, 3.6 rpg, 3.3 tpg

Player A is Broadway sensation Jeremy Lin, who is now on his way to Houston after New York failed to match the Rockets' massive contract offer for the coveted free agent.

And Player B? Well, that would be Raymond Felton during his run with the Knicks in the 2010-11 season. The same Raymond Felton the Knicks brought back last week with the Lin situation still in flux."

As you can see, Lin's run was nice, but the whole reason for Linsanity had to do with his Asianness, the nice coincidence that he came in during cupcake central, and Novak also came on strong around then and was equally important to the run - but there's nothing interesting about a white guy who can hit threes, since that's what they're supposed to do.
 
2012-07-19 11:46:02 AM  

IAmRight: xpisblack: And I agree with your first bit, the one about athletic intelligence being different to academic intelligence and people sometimes not grasping that. But that said, give me a choice between two equally talented players, I'll take the smarter one every time.

Of course...though I gotta say it somewhat depends on salary.

As for the standing out, I'd just point out that pretty much everyone in the NBA was the best player on their HS team and pretty much all of 'em won some state titles, so that's not a huge deal - I will say that Lin was better than I was making him out to be - he did, after all, have offers to walk-on at other places and chose Harvard because they said he'd play on their basketball team. So he could've gone to a better basketball school. And I will mention that I'm sure race did play a role in his being considered lightly coming out of HS.

But ultimately, he hasn't been spectacular and a lot of people are ignoring the fact that knee surgery ended his year last year and he averaged only 26 minutes/game - he still hasn't played more than half an NBA season ever. That's a lot of money to offer a guy at this point with his track record.

As for comparing him to Felton, Felton costs way less and also performed well in NYC. From a recent Washington Post article:

"In each of the last two seasons a New York Knicks point guard has averaged double figures in scoring and led the team in assists per game. Here's a look at their respective numbers.

Player A: 14.6 ppg, 6.2 apg, 3.1 rpg, 3.6 tpg

Player B: 17.1 ppg, 9 apg, 3.6 rpg, 3.3 tpg

Player A is Broadway sensation Jeremy Lin, who is now on his way to Houston after New York failed to match the Rockets' massive contract offer for the coveted free agent.

And Player B? Well, that would be Raymond Felton during his run with the Knicks in the 2010-11 season. The same Raymond Felton the Knicks brought back last week with the Lin situation still in flux."

As you can see, Lin's run was nice, but the ...


The money was more than averages, it was for the intangibles Lin brought including a turn around in winning, new fan base and media coverage.

But I guess you're right, who wants to over pay for a smart enthusiastic team oriented guy when you already overpay for MElo....
 
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