If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(New York Daily News)   Sanity returns to the Garden as the Knicks decide not to pay $25M for a point guard who was released by two teams and then only played 35 games for them   (nydailynews.com) divider line 207
    More: Spiffy, Knicks, Jeremy Lin, offer sheet, rockets, New York, Mike Woodson, Marcus Camby, luxury tax  
•       •       •

1198 clicks; posted to Sports » on 18 Jul 2012 at 2:20 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



207 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2012-07-18 12:42:52 PM
This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.
 
2012-07-18 12:43:59 PM
Yup. Sanity equals "Refusing to pay eight million dollars per season for a player whose potential market cap could go into the billions and provided upside and hope that the franchise has rarely seen in the last decade." Sanity equals "leaving the team with a drunk-driver and competitive eater as its point guards." Sanity equals "limiting your potential to win it all with a team designed to win it all because you didn't want to hit the luxury tax". Sanity equals "billionaire owner was upset that the organization turned Lin into a marketable commodity (by placing him in the lineup as part of a desperation move by a coach to save his own ass) and then watched Lin honor his league-given right to free agency".

Sanity is "not this headline". In-fact, this headline is trolling, I do believe.
 
2012-07-18 01:19:53 PM

FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.


can you trade a player you match? read somewhere that you can't.
 
2012-07-18 01:23:46 PM
Lin is a slightly above average basketball player who had a handful of standout games, which were notable only because he is one of the few Asians in the NBA
 
2012-07-18 01:33:24 PM

SpikeStrip: can you trade a player you match? read somewhere that you can't


Teams are banned from trading a player signed in the offseason until December 15 of the first year of the contract. After that, do what you will. I don't think the rules are different for players with matched offer sheets but I'm not positive. But assuming I'm right, there's no way the Knicks would have looked into trading him that early. It's really only a concern for that last year.
 
2012-07-18 01:38:21 PM
I listen to a LOT of sports radio (i'm getting old and slow) and there have been many talking heads that had stats on the awesome financial impact Lin had on that team.. everything pointed to "great".. even if he had a bad game, the next game.. as much coverage/merch/viewership .. he was doing everything the ownership needed him to do.

Oh well..
 
2012-07-18 02:09:37 PM
I don't know. It's been 5 months and my memory has dimmed a bit, but he seemed to be fading before he was injured, as if the rest of the league was starting to figure him out. I think the NY media made more out of him than there was because there wasn't much else going on (aside from the NHL) during his great run, basically the weeks between the Giants won the Superbowl and the start of the Yankees preseason, and that he was this kid came out of nowhere (the media loves the underdog). He brought excitement but was that really going to continue?

I can't really blame Lin for bailing on NY. We're usually not too nice to our stars (we've booed Mantle, Ewing, Strawberry, A-Rod etc). If Lin was just average for the Knicks after signing such a huge contract the fans would have been all over his ass faster than some writer on ESPN can make a Lin-sanity joke.

And looking at this from Dolan's view, if Lin was a bust we would all be yelling and screaming about another sucky move that will set back the franchise for years while our cable bills went up to pay the luxury tax. I dislike Knicks ownership for many reasons but paying $25M based on 6 weeks does seem insane. Now that will be Houston's problem/great investment.
 
2012-07-18 02:24:39 PM
I was excited for a while, as a casual Knicks fan, that Lin was here.

Now that he's gone, I'm sure I'll lose interest.

/whatever
 
2012-07-18 02:25:29 PM

FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.


The Knicks are dead to me now. Fark 'em; they could win 5 straight NBA titles and I still wouldn't give a crap.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.


Jim Dolan is the Vince McMahon of the NBA. 'nuff said.
 
2012-07-18 02:27:49 PM

damageddude: And looking at this from Dolan's view, if Lin was a bust we would all be yelling and screaming about another sucky move that will set back the franchise for years while our cable bills went up to pay the luxury tax. I dislike Knicks ownership for many reasons but paying $25M based on 6 weeks does seem insane. Now that will be Houston's problem/great investment.


Well maybe if Dolan had gotten out of his fat ass and offered Lin a "shut up and take my money" contract within the first minute of FA, it wouldn't have come to that.
 
2012-07-18 02:29:06 PM

Mike_LowELL: Yup. Sanity equals "Refusing to pay eight million dollars per season for a player whose potential market cap could go into the billions and provided upside and hope that the franchise has rarely seen in the last decade." Sanity equals "leaving the team with a drunk-driver and competitive eater as its point guards." Sanity equals "limiting your potential to win it all with a team designed to win it all because you didn't want to hit the luxury tax". Sanity equals "billionaire owner was upset that the organization turned Lin into a marketable commodity (by placing him in the lineup as part of a desperation move by a coach to save his own ass) and then watched Lin honor his league-given right to free agency".

Sanity is "not this headline". In-fact, this headline is trolling, I do believe.


This is why I have you favorited.
 
2012-07-18 02:30:30 PM
I guess I'll be watching the Rockets instead of the Knicks next season.
 
2012-07-18 02:30:41 PM

mainstreet62: I was excited for a while, as a casual Knicks fan, that Lin was here.

Now that he's gone, I'm sure I'll lose interest.

/whatever


I've really gone from diehard to casual over the past 10-or-so years. And I say that as someone who hasn't become any less intense about the Mets, and has become more intense about the farking Islanders. I don't even feel as antagonized by their owners as I do by Dolan.

/thank you, Giants
 
2012-07-18 02:32:20 PM
If they matched Houston's offer, they would have had TWO years of cheap to decide whether they wanted to keep or trade Lin. But to just let him leave like that, with no strings attached?

The basketball gods, in their questionable wisdom, bestowed a GIFT upon the New York Knicks - they knowingly and purposefully squandered it. They had plenty of time to figure something out regarding the luxury tax - that's a valid but insufficient excuse for why they let Lin leave. Regardless of whether they decided to retain Lin in year 3, they could have traded for some talent to fill out their team, they could have signed him at a bargain, they had so many options. There was only ONE losing move - which is exactly what they decided to do.
 
2012-07-18 02:33:37 PM
We've seen it all before. A player gets hot or a rookie comes up and blows away the competition. The NY fans are ready to anoint him king of the city, then he starts to decline or sometimes drops off the face of the earth. Kevin Maas, Sam Militello. If we had a bigger sample size, then maybe he was worth it. But I don't know if the Asian population is going to follow him just because he's Asian if he comes back to earth.
 
2012-07-18 02:34:16 PM

Mike_LowELL: Yup. Sanity equals "Refusing to pay eight million dollars per season for a player whose potential market cap could go into the billions and provided upside and hope that the franchise has rarely seen in the last decade." Sanity equals "leaving the team with a drunk-driver and competitive eater as its point guards." Sanity equals "limiting your potential to win it all with a team designed to win it all because you didn't want to hit the luxury tax". Sanity equals "billionaire owner was upset that the organization turned Lin into a marketable commodity (by placing him in the lineup as part of a desperation move by a coach to save his own ass) and then watched Lin honor his league-given right to free agency".

Sanity is "not this headline". In-fact, this headline is trolling, I do believe.


The Knicks have absolutely zero chance to win a title in the next three years with or without Lin.

The rest of your post I agree with though, and I'm strongly in favor of spending someone else's money to make Carmelo Anthony angry.
 
2012-07-18 02:35:28 PM
I'm sorry this is just audio.

ESPN sports business analyst Darren Rovell dishes on the financial impact of Jeremy Lin's move to Houston and more.
 
2012-07-18 02:37:01 PM

Dr.Knockboots: I listen to a LOT of sports radio (i'm getting old and slow) and there have been many talking heads that had stats on the awesome financial impact Lin had on that team.. everything pointed to "great".. even if he had a bad game, the next game.. as much coverage/merch/viewership .. he was doing everything the ownership needed him to do.

Oh well..


Well, speaking as someone on the other side of the continent, in another country entirely and who is not much of a basketball fan, I heard a lot about Linsanity for a few weeks. Peaked up here with the game against Toronto (naturally), then... well... I never heard of him again until this thread.

Sports history is littered with stories like this. When I read about Jeremy Lin, I keep thinking about NHL goaltender Jim Carey. Had a solid rookie year - including a record winning streak to open his career. He won the Vezina Trophy in year two, then fell completely off the face of the earth.

The Knicks are obviously betting Lin was a flash in the pan, which means his marketability is likely to nosedive (it will already since he's no longer in New York). Add in that the contract Lin did sign would have put the team into luxury tax territory, and the Knicks may have made the right call. But only time will tell on that one.
 
2012-07-18 02:40:05 PM

robbiex0r: I'm sorry this is just audio.

ESPN sports business analyst Darren Rovell dishes on the financial impact of Jeremy Lin's move to Houston and more.


Summary:
Merchandise - They made about enough to pay Lin for 5-6 games
Knicks on TV in Asia - Intl money split between 30 teams
Stock was boosted by $600M and MSG tv - winning team will draw viewers anyway
Tickets - brokers made money on tickets, not Knicks. Tix are already highly priced off $1B renovation project
 
2012-07-18 02:44:01 PM

tortilla burger: If they matched Houston's offer, they would have had TWO years of cheap to decide whether they wanted to keep or trade Lin. But to just let him leave like that, with no strings attached?


exactly at worst lin turns into a great expiring contract. instead they have old man kidd and fatty felton and lose a ton of revenue/marketability.

also, the stories about players potentially being jealous if lin returned to the knicks with a large contract seemed odd to me. actually, they seemed some what racist to me, or at least partially motivated by race.

/or has this all can be summarized; dolan being dolan.
 
2012-07-18 02:44:46 PM

damageddude: I can't really blame Lin for bailing on NY.


He didn't. Matched offer meant if the Knick's said no he was forced to go to Houston.
 
2012-07-18 02:45:08 PM

damageddude: I can't really blame Lin for bailing on NY. We're usually not too nice to our stars (we've booed Mantle, Ewing, Strawberry, A-Rod etc).


How dare you include Rodriguez in this list? He's a former star playing in New Yorlk, but never really an NY star.

Besides, it's been well established that Lin in a Taiwanese-American in the Knicks' armour, no?

...

(Did I read that old story right?)
 
2012-07-18 02:46:41 PM
The only real case you can make for letting Lin go is because they're all in on Mike Woodson, who in Atlanta pretty much neutered the PG position and ran the offense to let the Joe Johnsons and Josh Smiths dominate the ball and do whatever they felt like, and obviously Carmello is just happy to do the same.

So, you don't trade for Felton and sign Kidd. You sign two complete sh*tbums instead who are literally just capable of dribbling a ball past half court on the inbound and get the hell out of the way.
 
2012-07-18 02:46:57 PM

FreakinB: I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job.


Jay Caspian Kang put this in perspective nicely in his Grantland article:

It's true - of those same 259 players who used over 300 possessions, Lin ranked 252nd with a 21.4 turnover percentage. Raymond Felton ranked 244th at 19.6 percent. Jason Kidd? 257th at 24.2 percent. Guess who was 256th? Rajon Rondo. 258th? Steve Nash.

/I tuned in to my first Knicks game in years just to see what all this Linsanity stuff was about.
//Not even a little surprised Dolan managed to fark this one up.
 
2012-07-18 02:47:01 PM

hbk72777: We've seen it all before. A player gets hot or a rookie comes up and blows away the competition. The NY fans are ready to anoint him king of the city, then he starts to decline or sometimes drops off the face of the earth. Kevin Maas, Sam Militello. If we had a bigger sample size, then maybe he was worth it. But I don't know if the Asian population is going to follow him just because he's Asian if he comes back to earth.


Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.
 
2012-07-18 02:50:37 PM
$25 Million in salary. This doesn't even count the likely luxury tax hits. The 3rd year alone would have cost them $60 million.
 
2012-07-18 02:51:06 PM
Let's all just say what's really going on here: Lin is not worth 15 million because Asian guys like him need to know their place and meekly accept lower rewards for what they contribute.
 
2012-07-18 02:52:14 PM

FreakinB: And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.


Hey, Raymond Felton spent many years training with the likes of Sean May and Boris Diaw... so he's got that going for him...

Anyways, Houston could have a young but good team in a few years. Their summer league team is really solid in positions 2 through 5.
 
2012-07-18 02:53:46 PM

Killer Cars: The only real case you can make for letting Lin go is because they're all in on Mike Woodson, who in Atlanta pretty much neutered the PG position and ran the offense to let the Joe Johnsons and Josh Smiths dominate the ball and do whatever they felt like, and obviously Carmello is just happy to do the same.

So, you don't trade for Felton and sign Kidd. You sign two complete sh*tbums instead who are literally just capable of dribbling a ball past half court on the inbound and get the hell out of the way.


The Kidd signing only makes sense if they were going to keep Lin and use Kidd as the Vinny Testaverde of the NBA. Sign him as essentially a position coach and, at best, an emergency option in a game.

Or, if you're Dolan and you just want to fill up the roster already, so you can get back to playing jazz flute.
 
2012-07-18 02:54:17 PM

Levarien: $25 Million in salary. This doesn't even count the likely luxury tax hits. The 3rd year alone would have cost them $60 million.


Since when have the Knicks worried about the luxury tax?

FireZs: Let's all just say what's really going on here: Lin is not worth 15 million because Asian guys like him need to know their place and meekly accept lower rewards for what they contribute.


Let's all just say what is really going on here: Dolan is a moron.
 
2012-07-18 02:55:30 PM
also, the way this all happened is insane. the knicks never make an offer of any size to lin. tell him to discover his value on the open market. woodson then meets with lin to stay he's coming back to be the starting point guard. and says so publicly. meanwhile the knicks sign old drunkard kidd and trade for fatty felton. then there's the hiding from the offer sheet weirdness. then not matching, when they would get two years to see who lin is for just 10 million. this is just insane. dolan being dolan is great to watch as i'm not a fan of the knicks. must be just terrible for the knick fans though...
 
2012-07-18 02:56:02 PM

FireZs: Let's all just say what's really going on here: Lin is not worth 15 million because Asian guys like him need to know their place and meekly accept lower rewards for what they contribute.Jim Dolan could fark up a cup of coffee


FTFY
/the gospel according to Joe Pesci
 
2012-07-18 02:56:04 PM
Can someone explain why the backloaded contract is considered to be a poison pill? When you get to the last year of the contract, he'll be making a ton of money, but it will only be for one year. Back when I gave a shiat about the NBA, an expiring contract was a valuable commodity. The bigger the better. If a player turned out to be good enough to earn that salary, great. If not, he became a chip to trade to a team that wanted to clear cap room. It was a way to pry valuable players from rebuilding teams. Does it not work that way anymore with the current CBA?
 
2012-07-18 02:57:41 PM

Gunny Highway: Levarien: $25 Million in salary. This doesn't even count the likely luxury tax hits. The 3rd year alone would have cost them $60 million.

Since when have the Knicks worried about the luxury tax?


and expiring contracts always have trade value. or use it to match the salaries in a blockbuster trade for someone good if it turns out lin does suck.
 
2012-07-18 02:58:41 PM

Super Chronic: Can someone explain why the backloaded contract is considered to be a poison pill? When you get to the last year of the contract, he'll be making a ton of money, but it will only be for one year. Back when I gave a shiat about the NBA, an expiring contract was a valuable commodity. The bigger the better. If a player turned out to be good enough to earn that salary, great. If not, he became a chip to trade to a team that wanted to clear cap room. It was a way to pry valuable players from rebuilding teams. Does it not work that way anymore with the current CBA?


Who the hell knows what the new CBA has done. The offers made this off season have been outrageous.
 
2012-07-18 02:59:20 PM

Super Chronic: Can someone explain why the backloaded contract is considered to be a poison pill? When you get to the last year of the contract, he'll be making a ton of money, but it will only be for one year. Back when I gave a shiat about the NBA, an expiring contract was a valuable commodity. The bigger the better. If a player turned out to be good enough to earn that salary, great. If not, he became a chip to trade to a team that wanted to clear cap room. It was a way to pry valuable players from rebuilding teams. Does it not work that way anymore with the current CBA?


The issue is that the luxury tax is much bigger now, and Lin's contract could cause an issue given the other contracts already on the books. But like I said before, my response to that is 1) what you just said and 2) since when do the Knicks care? This is the team that broke the bank for Eddy Curry, FFS. You can't deal with one year on a guy that people might actually like?
 
2012-07-18 03:00:48 PM

Super Chronic: Can someone explain why the backloaded contract is considered to be a poison pill? When you get to the last year of the contract, he'll be making a ton of money, but it will only be for one year. Back when I gave a shiat about the NBA, an expiring contract was a valuable commodity. The bigger the better. If a player turned out to be good enough to earn that salary, great. If not, he became a chip to trade to a team that wanted to clear cap room. It was a way to pry valuable players from rebuilding teams. Does it not work that way anymore with the current CBA?


Short version: The Knicks have a giant payroll and are above the NBA's salary cap. Teams above the cap have to pay luxury tax penalties. Those penalties can accumulate over time and there's a bit of a multiplier penalty for years spent over the cap, so the $14 million year could end up costing $60 million (those are the numbers thrown around).

That's how I understand it anyway.
 
2012-07-18 03:02:30 PM

FreakinB: Super Chronic: Can someone explain why the backloaded contract is considered to be a poison pill? When you get to the last year of the contract, he'll be making a ton of money, but it will only be for one year. Back when I gave a shiat about the NBA, an expiring contract was a valuable commodity. The bigger the better. If a player turned out to be good enough to earn that salary, great. If not, he became a chip to trade to a team that wanted to clear cap room. It was a way to pry valuable players from rebuilding teams. Does it not work that way anymore with the current CBA?

The issue is that the luxury tax is much bigger now, and Lin's contract could cause an issue given the other contracts already on the books. But like I said before, my response to that is 1) what you just said and 2) since when do the Knicks care? This is the team that broke the bank for Eddy Curry, FFS. You can't deal with one year on a guy that people might actually like?


Since all the talk about Lin usually gets to the hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing potential, I'd think the luxury tax is a minor concern for them, so yeah. I guess I agree with the conventional wisdom here.
 
2012-07-18 03:03:31 PM
good article with lots of the details of what was going on behind the screens of the linsanity free agency:

Lin opens up about leaving Knicks: 'Honestly, I preferred New York'

/i submitted it, but the mods dislike me, or so i assume.
 
2012-07-18 03:03:33 PM

Ham Sandvich: Short version: The Knicks have a giant payroll and are above the NBA's salary cap. Teams above the cap have to pay luxury tax penalties. Those penalties can accumulate over time and there's a bit of a multiplier penalty for years spent over the cap, so the $14 million year could end up costing $60 million (those are the numbers thrown around).


They are the New York freaking Knicks, they have the money.
 
2012-07-18 03:03:47 PM

Ham Sandvich: Short version: The Knicks have a giant payroll and are above the NBA's salary cap. Teams above the cap have to pay luxury tax penalties. Those penalties can accumulate over time and there's a bit of a multiplier penalty for years spent over the cap, so the $14 million year could end up costing $60 million (those are the numbers thrown around).

That's how I understand it anyway.


Same here, but the biggest counter is just how much additional interest and money came (and would continue, to some degree) by Lin's mere presence.

Lin being Lin more than pays for any luxury taxes.
 
2012-07-18 03:04:14 PM

robertus: Jay Caspian Kang put this in perspective nicely in his Grantland article:

It's true - of those same 259 players who used over 300 possessions, Lin ranked 252nd with a 21.4 turnover percentage. Raymond Felton ranked 244th at 19.6 percent. Jason Kidd? 257th at 24.2 percent. Guess who was 256th? Rajon Rondo. 258th? Steve Nash.

/I tuned in to my first Knicks game in years just to see what all this Linsanity stuff was about.
//Not even a little surprised Dolan managed to fark this one up.


He's misusing the hell out of the stat to not really make a point. Lin had an assist/TO ratio of less than 2 to 1 and had more turnovers per minute than anyone else in the NBA by a fair bit.
 
2012-07-18 03:06:21 PM

Mike_LowELL: Sanity is "not this headline". In-fact, this headline is trolling, I do believe.


But you have to admit that it's impressive that dropping the word "sanity" into an NBA-related headline now can be seen as referring exclusively to Jeremy Lin. I, knowing nothing about the current Knicks, read the headline and assumed it was about their not having signed him.

If only worldwide name recognition among even casual fans were bankable in some way.
 
2012-07-18 03:06:33 PM

Gunny Highway: Ham Sandvich: Short version: The Knicks have a giant payroll and are above the NBA's salary cap. Teams above the cap have to pay luxury tax penalties. Those penalties can accumulate over time and there's a bit of a multiplier penalty for years spent over the cap, so the $14 million year could end up costing $60 million (those are the numbers thrown around).

They are the New York freaking Knicks, they have the money.


Yes. But they are not managed by a rational actor. Its a 3 year contract. Even if Lin sucks after the first year, there will probably still be teams willing to trade for him and see if he fits their system better. In that scenario, the Knicks don't get burned by the final $14 million anyway.
 
2012-07-18 03:07:21 PM

Ham Sandvich: Super Chronic: Can someone explain why the backloaded contract is considered to be a poison pill? When you get to the last year of the contract, he'll be making a ton of money, but it will only be for one year. Back when I gave a shiat about the NBA, an expiring contract was a valuable commodity. The bigger the better. If a player turned out to be good enough to earn that salary, great. If not, he became a chip to trade to a team that wanted to clear cap room. It was a way to pry valuable players from rebuilding teams. Does it not work that way anymore with the current CBA?

Short version: The Knicks have a giant payroll and are above the NBA's salary cap. Teams above the cap have to pay luxury tax penalties. Those penalties can accumulate over time and there's a bit of a multiplier penalty for years spent over the cap, so the $14 million year could end up costing $60 million (those are the numbers thrown around).

That's how I understand it anyway.


Well, I can see that being an impediment to wanting to pay out the total value of the deal (though see above re making it back via marketing opportunities). But my question was really about the backloading aspect of it. Based on what you said, if anything, I'd think the backloading would also help with the luxury tax: pay more of it later and thus negate the cumulative effect/"multiplier penalty" from having paid it earlier. Or am I misunderstanding it?
 
2012-07-18 03:12:00 PM
I hope that when Lin comes back to the Garden, he drops 38 on the Knicks and does a Spreewell on Dolan (not choking him, just staring at him).
 
2012-07-18 03:14:48 PM

FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.


Whats really dumb is this gives knicks fans yet another reason to jump on the Brooklyn bandwagon.

I hate basketball, but lin got even me interested for a bit last season.
 
2012-07-18 03:17:37 PM

Super Chronic: But my question was really about the backloading aspect of it.


i think the backloading was required. iirc, the gilbert arenas rule limited the size of the first two years of the contract the rockets could offer. ok, i was bored and found it.

Teams are now limited in the salary they can offer in an offer sheet to a restricted free agent with one or two years in the league. The first-year salary in the offer sheet cannot be greater than the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception...The second-year salary in such an offer sheet is limited to the standard 4.5% raise. The third-year salary can jump considerably -- it is allowed to be as high as it would have been had the first-year salary not been limited by this rule...


thus, to offer lin 24 million over 3 years, the rockets had to make the last year huge. sure, it had the added bonus of farking with the knicks luxury tax numbers in year 3, but the contract had to be backloaded to reach that total value under the cba.
 
2012-07-18 03:21:04 PM

you have pee hands: robertus: Jay Caspian Kang put this in perspective nicely in his Grantland article:

It's true - of those same 259 players who used over 300 possessions, Lin ranked 252nd with a 21.4 turnover percentage. Raymond Felton ranked 244th at 19.6 percent. Jason Kidd? 257th at 24.2 percent. Guess who was 256th? Rajon Rondo. 258th? Steve Nash.

/I tuned in to my first Knicks game in years just to see what all this Linsanity stuff was about.
//Not even a little surprised Dolan managed to fark this one up.

He's misusing the hell out of the stat to not really make a point. Lin had an assist/TO ratio of less than 2 to 1 and had more turnovers per minute than anyone else in the NBA by a fair bit.


Fair point. I'm not much of a basketball guy. It struck me as interesting to see him in similar company as Nash and Rondo, but I was looking at the tree instead of the forest.
 
2012-07-18 03:26:08 PM

Gunny Highway: They are the New York freaking Knicks, they have the money.


Lin isn't worth $60 million/year. Everyone's assuming he'll continue to tear everything up and are writing off the fact that his bad games were against good defenses. Well, all his good games were against sh*t teams or sh*t PG play, too.

He's far more likely to be a non-entity than he is to be worth $8 million a year (before considering luxury tax costs).

But hey, let's keep talking about idiot things like Simmons about how the Knicks fans should jump ship to the Nets, who are a much worse team. (though if the two teams combined, they'd have a starting rotation of Williams, Johnson, Anthony, Stoudemire, and Chandler with Kidd and Humphries and such coming off the bench...that team might be a contender).
 
2012-07-18 03:27:49 PM

robertus: Fair point. I'm not much of a basketball guy. It struck me as interesting to see him in similar company as Nash and Rondo, but I was looking at the tree instead of the forest.


As with all stats, you can compare anyone to anyone by setting the parameters to something that suits your argument.
 
2012-07-18 03:34:36 PM

A Fark Handle: Super Chronic: But my question was really about the backloading aspect of it.

i think the backloading was required. iirc, the gilbert arenas rule limited the size of the first two years of the contract the rockets could offer. ok, i was bored and found it.

Teams are now limited in the salary they can offer in an offer sheet to a restricted free agent with one or two years in the league. The first-year salary in the offer sheet cannot be greater than the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception...The second-year salary in such an offer sheet is limited to the standard 4.5% raise. The third-year salary can jump considerably -- it is allowed to be as high as it would have been had the first-year salary not been limited by this rule...

thus, to offer lin 24 million over 3 years, the rockets had to make the last year huge. sure, it had the added bonus of farking with the knicks luxury tax numbers in year 3, but the contract had to be backloaded to reach that total value under the cba.


Huh, okay. I was wondering why the Knicks couldn't have seen this coming and just offered Lin 8ish a year for 3 years, without any backloading. It kinda sucks that they flat weren't able to. I was just blaming Dolan.

But I'll blame Dolan anyway. Melo kinda sucks. Amare just sucks. How about you get players that aren't falling apart and can play defense? Watch the Knicks get rid of Chandler soon and win 22 games.
 
2012-07-18 03:36:06 PM

FreakinB: mainstreet62: I was excited for a while, as a casual Knicks fan, that Lin was here.

Now that he's gone, I'm sure I'll lose interest.

/whatever

I've really gone from diehard to casual over the past 10-or-so years. And I say that as someone who hasn't become any less intense about the Mets, and has become more intense about the farking Islanders. I don't even feel as antagonized by their owners as I do by Dolan.

/thank you, Giants


Well, if the Knicks had Matt Moulson, they'd be interesting too.
 
2012-07-18 03:36:42 PM

robertus: you have pee hands: robertus: Jay Caspian Kang put this in perspective nicely in his Grantland article:

It's true - of those same 259 players who used over 300 possessions, Lin ranked 252nd with a 21.4 turnover percentage. Raymond Felton ranked 244th at 19.6 percent. Jason Kidd? 257th at 24.2 percent. Guess who was 256th? Rajon Rondo. 258th? Steve Nash.

/I tuned in to my first Knicks game in years just to see what all this Linsanity stuff was about.
//Not even a little surprised Dolan managed to fark this one up.

He's misusing the hell out of the stat to not really make a point. Lin had an assist/TO ratio of less than 2 to 1 and had more turnovers per minute than anyone else in the NBA by a fair bit.

Fair point. I'm not much of a basketball guy. It struck me as interesting to see him in similar company as Nash and Rondo, but I was looking at the tree instead of the forest.


The general rule is this: if a stat makes Jeremy Lin look good, either it's a misleading use of the stat, or it was Lin padding his stats. If a stat makes Jeremy Lin look bad, it's an undisputed indicator of his true ability, and can be extrapolated forward to the end of his career with the assumption that he will become worse. Also, the only game that Jeremy Lin has played that matters is the game he played against the Miami Heat, because that is his worst performance, and therefore that is how he will perform in every game he will ever play.

So I've learned from reading posts by people who a deeply concerned for the wallet of James Dolan and one Stephen A. Smith.
 
2012-07-18 03:36:49 PM

IAmRight: Gunny Highway: They are the New York freaking Knicks, they have the money.

Lin isn't worth $60 million/year. Everyone's assuming he'll continue to tear everything up and are writing off the fact that his bad games were against good defenses. Well, all his good games were against sh*t teams or sh*t PG play, too.

He's far more likely to be a non-entity than he is to be worth $8 million a year (before considering luxury tax costs).

But hey, let's keep talking about idiot things like Simmons about how the Knicks fans should jump ship to the Nets, who are a much worse team. (though if the two teams combined, they'd have a starting rotation of Williams, Johnson, Anthony, Stoudemire, and Chandler with Kidd and Humphries and such coming off the bench...that team might be a contender).


I never said he was worth the money but is is the Knicks fault he is worth that much. He probably wont be any good. The issue is that the front office farked it up again.
 
2012-07-18 03:36:56 PM
Lin's contract is a bad idea with the Knicks. If he doesn't work out, he's another in a long long line of Dolan overpaying some loser by tens of millions. If he does work out, yea, fine, but this isn't Denver with Tebow, it's New York. They'll murder him as soon as he sucks as he's not anywhere close to Jeter untouchability.

Now, with Houston, that contract might actually work out. Houston has Chinese inroads already because of Yao, and, despite the fact that Lin is a born and raised American, it would seem that it would generate interest from Taiwan and China given his ancestry and the way basketball is booming there. Basically, Houston is the closest thing to being the NBA's Seattle Mariners
 
2012-07-18 03:37:33 PM

FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin Tebow's the only thing that's made being a Knicks Broncos fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers incompletions were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers incompletions he had a good WAR, and the Knicks Broncos immediately started winning more often when he started playing.


/Minimum changes to make a post most farkers disagree with, even though it's just as true
/I'm ready for football
/FOOTBALL!
 
2012-07-18 03:37:33 PM

IAmRight: But hey, let's keep talking about idiot things like Simmons about how the Knicks fans should jump ship to the Nets, who are a much worse team. (though if the two teams combined, they'd have a starting rotation of Williams, Johnson, Anthony, Stoudemire, and Chandler with Kidd and Humphries and such coming off the bench...that team might be a contender).


Considering who owns the Knicks...that's a viable option.
 
2012-07-18 03:40:38 PM

bhcompy: Lin's contract is a bad idea with the Knicks. If he doesn't work out, he's another in a long long line of Dolan overpaying some loser by tens of millions. If he does work out, yea, fine, but this isn't Denver with Tebow, it's New York. They'll murder him as soon as he sucks as he's not anywhere close to Jeter untouchability.


As opposed to letting Lin go, which is going to result in... Knicks fans all being pissed at Dolan and the Knicks winning ~35 games.

They might've won 35 games with Lin, but at least there'd be some hope (rational or not) going in.
 
2012-07-18 03:50:50 PM
Lin had good two months, then was very average the rest of the season.
 
2012-07-18 03:52:13 PM

IAmRight: Lin isn't worth $60 million/year


Who said he was?

If the Knicks matched, yes, the third year would be tough at (rounding up) $15m, but the full value was only $25m over the entire three years, so they'd be getting a deal, relatively speaking on the first two years, and they could use the newfangled "stretch provision" Link on the mammoth final year if need be.

This was more about Dolan being bitter that Lin seriously did pursue other offers than anything else.
 
2012-07-18 03:52:19 PM

oryx: Lin had good two months, then was very average the rest of the season.


He is young. Although that is a good reason not to pay him a lot.
 
2012-07-18 03:52:48 PM

FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.


This, 25Mil is overpriced but he brought more to the team then just stats. This tore a little bit out of the fans, the players and showed how Carmelo is selfish when it comes to a spotlight.
 
2012-07-18 03:53:20 PM

Dafatone: Huh, okay. I was wondering why the Knicks couldn't have seen this coming and just offered Lin 8ish a year for 3 years, without any backloading. It kinda sucks that they flat weren't able to. I was just blaming Dolan.


oh you can keep blaming dolan because the knicks COULD have made that "8ish a year for 3 years" offer before lin signed the offer sheet with the rockets. the rockets COULDN'T sign lin (a restricted free agent) to an offer sheet of 8 per year for 3 years due to the gilbert arenas rule, the knicks COULD have signed lin to a contract of 8 per for 3 anytime during free agency until lin signed an offer sheet with another team. but the knicks decided not to offer a contract to lin, let him test the restricted free agent market, and even sign an offer sheet. so yeah, per usual dolan sucks at life.
 
2012-07-18 03:53:45 PM
For the record, I'm not "sold" on Lin being a long-term success on the court, either. Admittedly, I just enjoy making fun of Dolan...but I think I have a case here.
 
2012-07-18 03:54:22 PM
Rajon Rondo: 36.9 minutes/game
Jeremy Lin: 26.9 minutes/game

Totally legit to say that their sharing a 3.5 turnovers/game stat is significant.

What would be crazy is pointing out that Lin had the worst turnovers/48 minutes numbers of anyone who played more than 48 minutes this season.

Or point out that his 1.71 assists/turnover ratio puts him at 40th among point guards, behind legendary Rodney Stuckey and CJ Watson (though ahead of shoot-first point guards like Westbrook and guys that have better passers on their team, like Mario Chalmers).
 
2012-07-18 03:55:32 PM

hbk72777: But I don't know if the Asian population is going to follow him just because he's Asian if he comes back to earth.


Yao Ming was the top vote getter for the All-Star game in a year in which he didn't play a single minute due to injury
 
2012-07-18 03:56:16 PM

skrame: FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin Tebow's the only thing that's made being a Knicks Broncos fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers incompletions were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers incompletions he had a good WAR, and the Knicks Broncos immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

/Minimum changes to make a post most farkers disagree with, even though it's just as true
/I'm ready for football
/FOOTBALL!


With Tebow I think there's a demonstrable lack of certain abilities. I don't see that with Lin. I think he would have been above-average with more experience. Most likely better than Felton. Maybe I'm wrong but for the amount of money it would have taken to figure it out if the Knicks had just offered him a contract of their own, I think it was a worthwhile risk.
 
2012-07-18 03:59:15 PM

Killer Cars: If the Knicks matched, yes, the third year would be tough at (rounding up) $15m, but the full value was only $25m over the entire three years,


With the NBA luxury tax being what it is, it would have escalated the amount they were paying to 15 million for his contract in year three, plus $1.75 for every dollar of the contract over the cap. Since they already basically have no cap room three years from now, that makes just year three of the deal cost $41.5 million JUST for Lin, and that's without taking into account other salaries.

He's not that good. I know everyone wants him to be because he's from Harvard and life's just so damn tough for those Ivy League grads, never getting a shot, but let's get real. He's a decent player who will probably never exceed those first couple of weeks.
 
2012-07-18 04:00:13 PM

IAmRight: He's not that good. I know everyone wants him to be because he's from Harvard and life's just so damn tough for those Ivy League grads, never getting a shot, but let's get real. He's a decent player who will probably never exceed those first couple of weeks.


True. The Knicks still farked up.
 
2012-07-18 04:00:20 PM

Lost Thought 00: Yao Ming was the top vote getter for the All-Star game in a year in which he didn't play a single minute due to injury


Yao Ming was also the first significant player to come from China (and was actually Asian, rather than Asian-American like Lin). Also, the center position is pretty difficult to find someone competent to fill.
 
2012-07-18 04:00:31 PM
Everybody knows that given a choice between Jeremy Lin and Michael Jordan at the same point in their careers, you take Jeremy Lin.

/reference
//don't like it
 
2012-07-18 04:01:00 PM

Killer Cars: For the record, I'm not "sold" on Lin being a long-term success on the court, either. Admittedly, I just enjoy making fun of Dolan...but I think I have a case here.


you do. even if just for the fact that the knicks never made an offer to lin. or at least try to keep communications open so they could offer a similar amount of money without the kicker year if they wanted. i too am not sold on lin being a great player, but the knicks could have had 2 years at 5 million per to figure it out. worst case lin becomes a 15 mil expiring contract/salary balance for a trade after year 2.
 
2012-07-18 04:01:08 PM

FireZs: So I've learned from reading posts by people who a deeply concerned for the wallet of James Dolan and one Stephen A. Smith.


Yes, bless that man for screeching shrieking speaking out against the yellow peril (this is 1895, right?) when no one else would on grounds of utter irrelevance and sheer stupidity. Such trifles matter not to Stephen A. Smith, spokesman for no one and voice of no age.
 
2012-07-18 04:01:20 PM

Killer Cars: This was more about Dolan being bitter that Lin seriously did pursue other offers than anything else.


FTFA: They (read: MSG officials) were upset that he (meaning Lin) hired a publicist without their consent...

Child, please; that smacks of Jim Dolan being a control freak more than anything else!
 
2012-07-18 04:04:12 PM

IAmRight: Lost Thought 00: Yao Ming was the top vote getter for the All-Star game in a year in which he didn't play a single minute due to injury

Yao Ming was also the first significant player to come from China (and was actually Asian, rather than Asian-American like Lin).


This is true, but Asian-American doesn't turn people off, because he still represents the dream of immigrating to America and "making it". I don't think he'd reach Yao-level status, but even half of that popularity would easily pay for his contract and then some.
 
2012-07-18 04:06:13 PM
Ha, good one Knicks, an almost 40 year old Jason Kidd and fatass Raymond Felton will put ya over the top! It' gonna be awesome to see them fail to make the playoffs.
 
2012-07-18 04:07:15 PM

TheJoe03: Ha, good one Knicks, an almost 40 year old Jason Kidd and fatass Raymond Felton will put ya over the top! It' gonna be awesome to see them fail to make the playoffs.


Save a seat and some popcorn for me on that one!
 
2012-07-18 04:11:34 PM
Lin sells tickets, The NBA is in business to sell tickets, selling tickets is how the electricity is paid for. Lin would have sold more tickets than he was paid.
 
2012-07-18 04:15:37 PM

TheJoe03: fatass Raymond Felton


But... it worked so well for them with Zach Randolph...
 
2012-07-18 04:17:09 PM

Kanemano: Lin sells tickets, The NBA is in business to sell tickets, selling tickets is how the electricity is paid for. Lin would have sold more tickets than he was paid.


Yeah, because MSG is usually a ghost town. You people realize that there are two Knicks on the USA basketball team, and two more that have played on it in the past, right? They're not some team of scrubs no one's ever heard of and Lin was the lone bright spot on the team.
 
2012-07-18 04:21:36 PM
Lin is the 2012 version of this guy:

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-07-18 04:24:50 PM

IAmRight: Kanemano: Lin sells tickets, The NBA is in business to sell tickets, selling tickets is how the electricity is paid for. Lin would have sold more tickets than he was paid.

Yeah, because MSG is usually a ghost town. You people realize that there are two Knicks on the USA basketball team, and two more that have played on it in the past, right? They're not some team of scrubs no one's ever heard of and Lin was the lone bright spot on the team.


Carmelo and Amare add up to what, nearly 40m a year? Between the two of them, they help the Knicks win slightly.
 
2012-07-18 04:31:34 PM
Meh. When you count ratings and positive press in your metrics Lin is actually worth more than Melo straight up. He puts up some points now and again but Melo is such a disagreeable me-first dick I'd bet he's worth negative ratings points.
 
2012-07-18 04:33:16 PM

IAmRight: Kanemano: Lin sells tickets, The NBA is in business to sell tickets, selling tickets is how the electricity is paid for. Lin would have sold more tickets than he was paid.

Yeah, because MSG is usually a ghost town.


It could use a new coat of paint, and the train station smells of cabbages, just saying.
 
2012-07-18 04:33:38 PM

Dafatone: Carmelo and Amare add up to what, nearly 40m a year? Between the two of them, they help the Knicks win slightly.


First, Knicks fans get mad at Dolan for not acquiring big names. Dolan acquires big names. Then it's his fault those guys underachieve. Then he gets a good player for cheap, and fans want him to spend a ton more money on him. Then they get mad that he doesn't do it.

I mean, the guy is boned no matter what - this is why you don't do things based on what fans say they want. Winning solves all so do what you think will help you win. I think the team will play just fine this year with Kidd - he doesn't have to be a shooter, they have lots of guys who can score.
 
2012-07-18 04:35:00 PM

Dafatone: IAmRight: Kanemano: Lin sells tickets, The NBA is in business to sell tickets, selling tickets is how the electricity is paid for. Lin would have sold more tickets than he was paid.

Yeah, because MSG is usually a ghost town. You people realize that there are two Knicks on the USA basketball team, and two more that have played on it in the past, right? They're not some team of scrubs no one's ever heard of and Lin was the lone bright spot on the team.

Carmelo and Amare add up to what, nearly 40m a year? Between the two of them, they help the Knicks win slightly.


Not just that: LeBron and the Heat FINALLY figured. it. out.

That means, the Knicks aren't going to win the EAST; let alone contend for the title. And when Rose comes back for Chicago...

/not to mention Boston
//aged as they are
 
2012-07-18 04:35:58 PM
mccheap.files.wordpress.com
Knicks fans, you have no one to blame but yourselves. In order to drive this cancer out of your lives, you have to do what Dodgers fans did, and stage open revolt/boycott. Get Spike Lee on board, and it'll get done, quickly. Kick Dolan out. Unfortunately, as dumb and petty as Dolan is, he doesn't appear to be outright robbing the Knicks to pay for personal real estate. And he's not dumb enough to hire incompetent lawyers to bungle the pre-nup stipulations on his most valuable asset, then get divorced from an ex-lawyer.
 
2012-07-18 04:36:57 PM

IAmRight: Dafatone: Carmelo and Amare add up to what, nearly 40m a year? Between the two of them, they help the Knicks win slightly.

First, Knicks fans get mad at Dolan for not acquiring big names. Dolan acquires big names. Then it's his fault those guys underachieve. Then he gets a good player for cheap, and fans want him to spend a ton more money on him. Then they get mad that he doesn't do it.

I mean, the guy is boned no matter what - this is why you don't do things based on what fans say they want. Winning solves all so do what you think will help you win. I think the team will play just fine this year with Kidd - he doesn't have to be a shooter, they have lots of guys who can score.


You know, all of this could be forgiven since Dolan never hired Isiah Thomas to run the Knicks into the ground.

Oh wait...
 
2012-07-18 04:41:51 PM

IAmRight: Dafatone: Carmelo and Amare add up to what, nearly 40m a year? Between the two of them, they help the Knicks win slightly.

First, Knicks fans get mad at Dolan for not acquiring big names. Dolan acquires big names. Then it's his fault those guys underachieve. Then he gets a good player for cheap, and fans want him to spend a ton more money on him. Then they get mad that he doesn't do it.

I mean, the guy is boned no matter what - this is why you don't do things based on what fans say they want. Winning solves all so do what you think will help you win. I think the team will play just fine this year with Kidd - he doesn't have to be a shooter, they have lots of guys who can score.


Not acquiring big names was never the issue. He always acquired big names, but the wrong big names, and with no concern for money. And the idea that he's doing what the fans want is laughable. There are few owners in sports who are more tone-deaf. If he did what the fans wanted, Isiah would have been out about 4 years earlier.
 
2012-07-18 04:41:59 PM

Kanemano: IAmRight: Kanemano: Lin sells tickets, The NBA is in business to sell tickets, selling tickets is how the electricity is paid for. Lin would have sold more tickets than he was paid.

Yeah, because MSG is usually a ghost town.

It could use a new coat of paint, and the train station smells of cabbages, just saying.


It just got a "new coat o paint"
 
2012-07-18 04:44:04 PM

IAmRight: I mean, the guy is boned no matter what


No, he's boned because he has one of the (well, used to be anyway) premier sports properties on the planet and he has horribly mismanaged them. Larry Brown, Allan houston signing, isiah's extension, sexual harassment suit, etc. ad nauseum.
 
2012-07-18 04:45:56 PM

JohnBigBootay: IAmRight: I mean, the guy is boned no matter what

No, he's boned because he has one of the (well, used to be anyway) premier sports properties on the planet and he has horribly mismanaged them. Larry Brown, Allan houston signing, isiah's extension, sexual harassment suit, etc. ad nauseum.


I mean, it takes a special kind of farking moron to run a league that had been thriving for the better part of 20-30 years and run it into bankruptcy.

Isian Thomas is that special kind of farking moron.
 
2012-07-18 04:47:53 PM

IAmRight: Dafatone: Carmelo and Amare add up to what, nearly 40m a year? Between the two of them, they help the Knicks win slightly.

First, Knicks fans get mad at Dolan for not acquiring big names. Dolan acquires big names. Then it's his fault those guys underachieve. Then he gets a good player for cheap, and fans want him to spend a ton more money on him. Then they get mad that he doesn't do it.

I mean, the guy is boned no matter what - this is why you don't do things based on what fans say they want. Winning solves all so do what you think will help you win. I think the team will play just fine this year with Kidd - he doesn't have to be a shooter, they have lots of guys who can score.


Just build a good team. Dolan's always acquiring "big names." Marbury, Steve Francis before. Terrible big names, but those are names. Knicks fans were upset because the team sucked and had no hope of getting better.

Maybe I'm harder on Carmelo and Amare than I should be. Carmelo's really not all that bad, and has a knack for big moments. But Amare? Who needs a big man that can't play defense and can only sort of rebound?

Nobody in NY cared about the Knicks for a decade. Then they finally get an energizing story and manage to let it slip through their fingers almost immediately. I agree that Kidd is a good fit, but he's also very old. Lin brought excitement, and at least the potential for something big. There's not much of a chance of this team being better than barely making the playoffs, which is exactly where you don't want to be in the NBA.
 
2012-07-18 04:48:18 PM
Due to my loyalties and coming of age in the 90s, I hope Lin becomes a superduperstar in Houston, haha. Knicks, you're the Knicksiest.

/much like last night the Mets were the Metsiest
 
2012-07-18 04:49:07 PM

JohnBigBootay: Meh. When you count ratings and positive press in your metrics Lin is actually worth more than Melo straight up. He puts up some points now and again but Melo is such a disagreeable me-first dick I'd bet he's worth negative ratings points.


It's funny how much that Melo has become the Red Sox-era Eric Gagne of the Knicks - doesn't perform well enough in said hype zone that everyone pretends that he sucks and is a consummate asshole. Melo's a damn good player and is one of those guys that will help a team win a title.

FreakinB: Not acquiring big names was never the issue. He always acquired big names, but the wrong big names, and with no concern for money.


So then what are people upset about? I didn't see anyone upset about getting Carmelo when it happened. Same goes for Amare. Chandler was a good pickup. They'd be a threat if they could get Phil Jackson involved as a coach.
 
2012-07-18 04:50:44 PM

Gunny Highway: Kanemano: IAmRight: Kanemano: Lin sells tickets, The NBA is in business to sell tickets, selling tickets is how the electricity is paid for. Lin would have sold more tickets than he was paid.

Yeah, because MSG is usually a ghost town.

It could use a new coat of paint, and the train station smells of cabbages, just saying.

It just got a "new coat o paint"


but it still smells of cabbage
 
2012-07-18 04:50:49 PM

IAmRight: one of those guys that will help a team win a title.


No, at least not as the best player.
 
2012-07-18 04:51:38 PM

JohnBigBootay: IAmRight: I mean, the guy is boned no matter what

No, he's boned because he has one of the (well, used to be anyway) premier sports properties on the planet and he has horribly mismanaged them. Larry Brown, Allan houston signing, isiah's extension, sexual harassment suit, etc. ad nauseum.


so much this. dolan is a farking failure pretty much at everything he has ever tried. but since he was born on third he can keep pretending he's a triple hitting machine.
 
2012-07-18 04:54:20 PM

Dafatone: Lin brought excitement, and at least the potential for something big.


I guess this is more of what I'm confused about - everyone felt it was ridiculous to sign all these guys who were just players with potential to do something big if they were put together, right? So why are they mad that they passed on a guy who only had potential to be big, but probably won't?

Lin had a good few weeks, then got injured. I could see being this upset if Lin finished the season on the tear he had earlier in the season (I also think they'd be more inclined to match the offer if that were the case), but you have a guy who performed well for a few weeks, showed no indications of doing it before and is probably unlikely to do so again, not to mention the fact that he ended his season early due to having knee surgery. Is that a guy you want to be dropping $8 million plus luxury tax on? Really?

Rather than being pissed that NOW he's exercising responsible spending procedures, I'd just hope this signals the fact that maybe he's going to start making proper moves from now on.
 
2012-07-18 04:54:41 PM

Levarien: $25 Million in salary. This doesn't even count the likely luxury tax hits. The 3rd year alone would have cost them $60 million.


This repeated inanity about the 3rd year automatically costing them $60 million is worthy of the politics tab. You get a 23-year-old PG at a cheap rate for two years. You get a gazillion dollars from marketing him in Asia, which will largely offset the luxury tax hit. If he's crap in the third year you either stretch out the cap hit or you have a $15 million expiring contract which will instantly become one of the biggest trading assets in the league.
 
2012-07-18 04:55:20 PM

TheJoe03: IAmRight: one of those guys that will help a team win a title.

No, at least not as the best player.


Neither will Lin. If Lin is anything above your fourth-best player, you're not winning a title.
 
2012-07-18 04:55:56 PM

IAmRight: So then what are people upset about? I didn't see anyone upset about getting Carmelo when it happened. Same goes for Amare. Chandler was a good pickup. They'd be a threat if they could get Phil Jackson involved as a coach.


Except Phil Jackson is too smart for Jim Dolan's liking.
 
2012-07-18 04:59:02 PM

IAmRight: FreakinB: Not acquiring big names was never the issue. He always acquired big names, but the wrong big names, and with no concern for money.

So then what are people upset about? I didn't see anyone upset about getting Carmelo when it happened. Same goes for Amare. Chandler was a good pickup. They'd be a threat if they could get Phil Jackson involved as a coach


Those were recent and decent (Clydespeak!), though Amare's looking like a dumb one now. But go back to the Allan Houston contract (bidding against themselves), Marbury, Francis, Curry, Jerome farking James, going through coaches like pairs of shoes. When Isiah finally got pushed out, he still let him meddle. And let's not forget the sexual harassment trial and all it's revelations. The team has been mismanaged like crazy, and Dolan's known to be impulsive egomaniac with a tendency to go off on people.

And the reason they can't get Phil as coach? By all accounts, mainly because Dolan's ego won't allow for dealing with someone like Phil Jackson on a daily basis. Repeat: Dolan's not interested in Phil farking Jackson. .
 
2012-07-18 04:59:54 PM

IAmRight: Neither will Lin. If Lin is anything above your fourth-best player, you're not winning a title.


First off, you agree Melo will never win a title? Anyways, Lin is just beginning his career, we know what Melo is (a selfish ball hog), so it's hard to claim how good he is and if he can win a title.. Lin has already shown that he can make those around him better. Melo has no upside while Lin has a bunch. The Knicks played better with Lin and a bunch of scrubs than they did with the dysfunction of having Melo and Amare run the show. Don't forget, the run Lin made allowed the Knicks to even get into playoff position, the Knicks were garbage before he came in and garbage when he got hurt. The Knicks will be garbage next year.
 
2012-07-18 05:00:12 PM

tarkus1980: You get a 23-year-old PG at a cheap rate for two years.


That "cheap rate" is more than a No. 1 overall pick gets. That ain't cheap. Similarly, foreign marketing doesn't do anything since that money is shared among all teams. Also, you're depending on Lin to be great in your scenario. People don't buy Lin jerseys if the dude is mediocre.
 
2012-07-18 05:02:29 PM

IAmRight: tarkus1980: You get a 23-year-old PG at a cheap rate for two years.

That "cheap rate" is more than a No. 1 overall pick gets. That ain't cheap. Similarly, foreign marketing doesn't do anything since that money is shared among all teams. Also, you're depending on Lin to be great in your scenario. People don't buy Lin jerseys if the dude is mediocre.


You can't just buy a No. 1 pick on the free market, so that's not really a valid comparison
 
2012-07-18 05:04:40 PM

TheJoe03: First off, you agree Melo will never win a title?


Given that he's not going to be on the Heat, yeah. If he goes to, say, the Bulls as a SF? That team becomes a hell of a lot more fearsome and could easily win several titles.

TheJoe03: Don't forget, the run Lin made allowed the Knicks to even get into playoff position, the Knicks were garbage before he came in and garbage when he got hurt. The Knicks will be garbage next year.


Kidd, even if he's drunk during the games, is still an upgrade over Mike Bibby and Baron Davis. It's really funny how much everyone has jumped on board to overhype the f*ck out of Lin.

FreakinB: And the reason they can't get Phil as coach? By all accounts, mainly because Dolan's ego won't allow for dealing with someone like Phil Jackson on a daily basis. Repeat: Dolan's not interested in Phil farking Jackson. .


And that's a legitimate reason to be upset. However, I really question most of these "it's not happening because of someone's ego" stories that rely on random third parties (most of whom are extremely biased and have little access) to interpret why actions take place.
 
2012-07-18 05:05:24 PM
I'm trying to decide if Dolan is a representation of why television is so farked up, or if it's vice-versa. Because either way, he is a walking talking devaluation of the New York Knicks and Rangers franchises and Cablevision. Whatever they're theoretically worth, with all their media and stadium tie-ins and everything else, knowing how horribly run the teams are probably devalued the team by a tenth, maybe more.
 
2012-07-18 05:05:42 PM

Lost Thought 00: You can't just buy a No. 1 pick on the free market, so that's not really a valid comparison


The point is that even $5 million/year is not "cheap" for an unproven player that's been waived three times and is coming off knee surgery.
 
2012-07-18 05:06:12 PM

TheJoe03: IAmRight: Neither will Lin. If Lin is anything above your fourth-best player, you're not winning a title.

First off, you agree Melo will never win a title? Anyways, Lin is just beginning his career, we know what Melo is (a selfish ball hog), so it's hard to claim how good he is and if he can win a title.. Lin has already shown that he can make those around him better. Melo has no upside while Lin has a bunch. The Knicks played better with Lin and a bunch of scrubs than they did with the dysfunction of having Melo and Amare run the show. Don't forget, the run Lin made allowed the Knicks to even get into playoff position, the Knicks were garbage before he came in and garbage when he got hurt. The Knicks will be garbage next year.


All I ask for is this: When Lin returns to the Garden, he drops 38 on them while making Felton and Kidd look like afterthoughts.

Bonus if he goes against Carmelo one-on-one and blows past him on the way to the bucket.
 
2012-07-18 05:06:35 PM

robsul82: Due to my loyalties and coming of age in the 90s, I hope Lin becomes a superduperstar in Houston, haha. Knicks, you're the Knicksiest.

/much like last night the Mets were the Metsiest


You're a Rockets fan?
 
2012-07-18 05:07:22 PM

IAmRight: Rather than being pissed that NOW he's exercising responsible spending procedures, I'd just hope this signals the fact that maybe he's going to start making proper moves from now on.


no he's a farking idiot and that's not changing. the knicks told lin to discover his value in the restricted market and they would match the offer. woodson told lin that he was his starting point guard. maybe the knicks were too stupid to see the backloaded contract coming, maybe not. sure it's not clear what lin is worth on the court, but the knicks could have spent 10 million over to 2 years to see what the basketball gods had dropped into msg. and at worst since when is having a 15 million expiring contract/salary balance for a trade a bad thing? and their solution is fatty felton and the old drunkard kidd? shiat, i'm available and will take the veteran minimum. that would save them some cash too.
 
2012-07-18 05:07:45 PM

IAmRight: tarkus1980: You get a 23-year-old PG at a cheap rate for two years.

That "cheap rate" is more than a No. 1 overall pick gets. That ain't cheap. Similarly, foreign marketing doesn't do anything since that money is shared among all teams. Also, you're depending on Lin to be great in your scenario. People don't buy Lin jerseys if the dude is mediocre.


$5 mil absolutely is cheap for a decent starting PG (that's not acquired via the draft), which you have to acknowledge he could very well be. As for the last year, either he's not worth it and you either trade him as an expiring or use the stretch provision on him, or he is and you use the stretch provision on someone else. Not the worst thing in the world.

Of course all of this is avoided if they never let him test the market in the first place.
 
2012-07-18 05:09:08 PM

IAmRight: Kidd, even if he's drunk during the games, is still an upgrade over Mike Bibby and Baron Davis. It's really funny how much everyone has jumped on board to overhype the f*ck out of Lin.


Right, a 39-year-old PG is going to play significant (as in at least 20 a game, including crunch time) minutes for the Knicks.

Y-you do realize they signed Jason Kidd not Steve Nash right?
 
2012-07-18 05:11:50 PM

IAmRight: Given that he's not going to be on the Heat, yeah. If he goes to, say, the Bulls as a SF? That team becomes a hell of a lot more fearsome and could easily win several titles.


So only the Heat can win the next 5 or so titles? Figured you'd say something so stupid when it comes to the Heat. Good way to avoid what it is about Melo as a player that keeps him from being a winner.
 
2012-07-18 05:12:44 PM

A Fark Handle: and at worst since when is having a 15 million expiring contract/salary balance for a trade a bad thing?


When everyone in the league knows that $15 million is $50+ million for you and they can extort the hell out of you.

Look, they could've had him. It wasn't worth the money and you'll always have those couple of weeks where he seemed really great - you got the best he's ever going to do in the NBA. There's no reason to believe it will continue, so there's no reason to be upset that he's not on the team anymore.
 
2012-07-18 05:12:54 PM

Kanemano: Gunny Highway: Kanemano: IAmRight: Kanemano: Lin sells tickets, The NBA is in business to sell tickets, selling tickets is how the electricity is paid for. Lin would have sold more tickets than he was paid.

Yeah, because MSG is usually a ghost town.

It could use a new coat of paint, and the train station smells of cabbages, just saying.

It just got a "new coat o paint"

but it still smells of cabbage


That is part of the home court advantage.
 
2012-07-18 05:13:43 PM

TheJoe03: So only the Heat can win the next 5 or so titles? Figured you'd say something so stupid when it comes to the Heat.


Yeah, because they're going to get dramatically worse going forward.
 
2012-07-18 05:15:12 PM

IAmRight: TheJoe03: So only the Heat can win the next 5 or so titles? Figured you'd say something so stupid when it comes to the Heat.

Yeah, because they're going to get dramatically worse going forward.


True, he's right. It's not like Jordan and the Bulls won anymore titles after that first one.

Oh wait...
 
2012-07-18 05:16:08 PM

IAmRight: Yeah, because they're going to get dramatically worse going forward.


Wade is getting old and banged up, so yes. Other teams are also getting better, but since you think like ESPN does, I guess crown them already, no need to play the games.
 
2012-07-18 05:16:52 PM

IAmRight: you got the best he's ever going to do in the NBA


All the overhyping of Lin doesn't come close to the craziness of this statement. Kid's farking 23, just cause he's Asian doesn't mean you have to attribute a that low of a chance of him getting better.
 
2012-07-18 05:17:02 PM
If Chris Bosh didn't come back, the Heat lose to the Celtics or the Thunder. They aren't THAT dominate.
 
2012-07-18 05:18:49 PM

Rwa2play: It's not like Jordan and the Bulls


Those Bulls teams were a lot better than the Heat.
 
2012-07-18 05:19:25 PM

Gunny Highway: Super Chronic: Can someone explain why the backloaded contract is considered to be a poison pill? When you get to the last year of the contract, he'll be making a ton of money, but it will only be for one year. Back when I gave a shiat about the NBA, an expiring contract was a valuable commodity. The bigger the better. If a player turned out to be good enough to earn that salary, great. If not, he became a chip to trade to a team that wanted to clear cap room. It was a way to pry valuable players from rebuilding teams. Does it not work that way anymore with the current CBA?

Who the hell knows what the new CBA has done. The offers made this off season have been outrageous.


I was told the lockout ended the crazy spending.

/4 years, $46.5M for Nic Batum?
//Who's crazier, Minny for offering or Portland for matching? (No way they don't match)
 
2012-07-18 05:21:07 PM

IAmRight: FreakinB: And the reason they can't get Phil as coach? By all accounts, mainly because Dolan's ego won't allow for dealing with someone like Phil Jackson on a daily basis. Repeat: Dolan's not interested in Phil farking Jackson. .

And that's a legitimate reason to be upset. However, I really question most of these "it's not happening because of someone's ego" stories that rely on random third parties (most of whom are extremely biased and have little access) to interpret why actions take place


With Dolan, there's more than enough stories about him out there that I believe it. Too much smoke for there not to be fire.
 
2012-07-18 05:21:09 PM

TheJoe03: If Chris Bosh didn't come back, the Heat lose to the Celtics or the Thunder. They aren't THAT dominate.


Ugh don't remind me about the end of that series.

"Like I said before, I have matured a lot and my game has also. I think I am one of the best playmakers in the league. I think I'm the best point guard in the league." said Rondo.
 
2012-07-18 05:22:29 PM

TheJoe03: If Chris Bosh didn't come back, the Heat lose to the Celtics or the Thunder. They aren't THAT dominate.


"If they didn't have one of their three best players, then they probably don't win the championship."

No sh*t. And if Rose isn't injured, the Heat probably have to beat the Bulls instead of the Celtics. What's your point? The Knicks aren't competing for championships with or without Lin. If Melo went to the Bulls, he would be either the most important or second-most important (depending on how well Rose gets back from surgery) player on a championship contender. As it stands right now, it's Heat/Bulls/Celtics and "the rest."

So yeah, it's criminal of me to say that, because of that, Melo's unlikely to win a title.
 
2012-07-18 05:24:06 PM

TheJoe03: Rwa2play: It's not like Jordan and the Bulls

Those Bulls teams were a lot better than the Heat.


Unless the Heat win several in a row. It's easy to say one team was better than another after you already know they win several titles. It's what the mental defectives at ESPN and throughout the internet do all the time (see: Dream Team arguments).
 
2012-07-18 05:26:17 PM

IAmRight: People don't buy Lin jerseys if the dude is mediocre.


I can't possibly disagree with this more. *Americans* won't buy Lin jerseys if he's mediocre. There's a crapload of people in Asia who won't care at all if he's mediocre.
 
2012-07-18 05:28:54 PM

IAmRight: What's your point?


That the Heat aren't a shoe in for a bunch of uncontested titles. Wade, their second best player, is prone to injury. To think that no one else has a chance is incredibly ignorant. That (pretty much the) same lineup that lost in 2011 isn't untouchable, not even close.
 
2012-07-18 05:29:09 PM

IAmRight: The point is that even $5 million/year is not "cheap" for an unproven player that's been waived three times and is coming off knee surgery.


No, but he's a singularly unique property when you consider the rest of the story like him being the one farking player the most populous country in the world gives a shiat about and playing in the biggest media market in the US. Frankly, given how NBA teams routinely set money on fire with guaranteed contracts and stupid signings - and Dolan and the Knicks are at the head of that list - one could easily justify paying over market for Lin. People keep talking about this mythical 60 mil lux tax as if it's automatic, but ignoring the (likely equally mythical, but still, let's be fair) the rumore extra 600 mil he apparently generated for MSG in his short stint. What Dolan is, is an idiot. He picks and chooses when he's gonna gamble but he never seems to play the right hand.
 
2012-07-18 05:29:32 PM

IAmRight: It's easy to say one team was better than another after you already know they win several titles.


Compare the rosters and get back to me.
 
2012-07-18 05:30:22 PM

IAmRight: Gunny Highway: They are the New York freaking Knicks, they have the money.

Lin isn't worth $60 million/year. Everyone's assuming he'll continue to tear everything up and are writing off the fact that his bad games were against good defenses. Well, all his good games were against sh*t teams or sh*t PG play, too.

He's far more likely to be a non-entity than he is to be worth $8 million a year (before considering luxury tax costs).

But hey, let's keep talking about idiot things like Simmons about how the Knicks fans should jump ship to the Nets, who are a much worse team. (though if the two teams combined, they'd have a starting rotation of Williams, Johnson, Anthony, Stoudemire, and Chandler with Kidd and Humphries and such coming off the bench...that team might be a contender).


I'd love to see where this $60MM number comes from.

Because it isn't true.
 
2012-07-18 05:30:52 PM

IAmRight: A Fark Handle: and at worst since when is having a 15 million expiring contract/salary balance for a trade a bad thing?

When everyone in the league knows that $15 million is $50+ million for you and they can extort the hell out of you.

Look, they could've had him. It wasn't worth the money and you'll always have those couple of weeks where he seemed really great - you got the best he's ever going to do in the NBA. There's no reason to believe it will continue, so there's no reason to be upset that he's not on the team anymore.


what, exact, did lin do last season to make it inevitable that he will suck going forward? does anyone else find it funny that the team willing to pay lin a) had him in camp before, b) is team with the most knowledge of how much money an asian star player can make the team? signing fatty felton and old drunken kidd?

/dolan is a farking tard.
 
2012-07-18 05:32:47 PM

Moopy Mac: I'd love to see where this $60MM number comes from.

Because it isn't true


No, it's not entirely off-base with the new luxury tax and the other contracts the Knicks already have. It can get up in that neighborhood. However, as I posted before, there are ways to potentially lessen/eliminate the impact if need be.
 
2012-07-18 05:32:49 PM

IAmRight: Rajon Rondo: 36.9 minutes/game
Jeremy Lin: 26.9 minutes/game

Totally legit to say that their sharing a 3.5 turnovers/game stat is significant.

What would be crazy is pointing out that Lin had the worst turnovers/48 minutes numbers of anyone who played more than 48 minutes this season.

Or point out that his 1.71 assists/turnover ratio puts him at 40th among point guards, behind legendary Rodney Stuckey and CJ Watson (though ahead of shoot-first point guards like Westbrook and guys that have better passers on their team, like Mario Chalmers).


I know you have your usual anti-Lin hard-on, but usage rate isn't a complicated concept.
 
2012-07-18 05:34:01 PM
Threadjack but I'd like to use this forum to apologize to Cuban, because he made his plan Z better than his plan A. Kaman, Mayo, Brand, Collison, plus the rookies, make Dallas much much better than last year. Still want Chandler back though.

/end threadjack.
 
2012-07-18 05:37:34 PM

FreakinB: Moopy Mac: I'd love to see where this $60MM number comes from.

Because it isn't true

No, it's not entirely off-base with the new luxury tax and the other contracts the Knicks already have. It can get up in that neighborhood. However, as I posted before, there are ways to potentially lessen/eliminate the impact if need be.


Yes it is entirely off base. The absolute MAXIMUM that last year would cost the Knicks would be $43MM. Deadspin did an article stating that it would be $58MM, then went back and corrected it to $43MM after correcting misinformation they had about the Knicks' salary cap situation last year.
 
2012-07-18 05:39:33 PM

Moopy Mac: FreakinB: Moopy Mac: I'd love to see where this $60MM number comes from.

Because it isn't true

No, it's not entirely off-base with the new luxury tax and the other contracts the Knicks already have. It can get up in that neighborhood. However, as I posted before, there are ways to potentially lessen/eliminate the impact if need be.

Yes it is entirely off base. The absolute MAXIMUM that last year would cost the Knicks would be $43MM. Deadspin did an article stating that it would be $58MM, then went back and corrected it to $43MM after correcting misinformation they had about the Knicks' salary cap situation last year.


Here is the ESPN article that calculates the Maximum cost of Lin's final year.

And the germane paragraph:

"That brings the total tax bill on the third year of Lin's contract to $28,249,997. Together with his base salary of $14.8 million, that would bring Lin's total cost to the Knicks in the third year to $43,049,997 -- assuming his deal in its entirety would be counted as over the luxury tax threshold. "
 
2012-07-18 05:40:48 PM

Moopy Mac: FreakinB: Moopy Mac: I'd love to see where this $60MM number comes from.

Because it isn't true

No, it's not entirely off-base with the new luxury tax and the other contracts the Knicks already have. It can get up in that neighborhood. However, as I posted before, there are ways to potentially lessen/eliminate the impact if need be.

Yes it is entirely off base. The absolute MAXIMUM that last year would cost the Knicks would be $43MM. Deadspin did an article stating that it would be $58MM, then went back and corrected it to $43MM after correcting misinformation they had about the Knicks' salary cap situation last year.


Fair enough. That's still far above the contract value, which I think is the more important point than the exact figures. But again, shouldn't have been an insurmountable obstacle.
 
2012-07-18 05:52:22 PM

FreakinB: Moopy Mac: FreakinB: Moopy Mac: I'd love to see where this $60MM number comes from.

Because it isn't true

No, it's not entirely off-base with the new luxury tax and the other contracts the Knicks already have. It can get up in that neighborhood. However, as I posted before, there are ways to potentially lessen/eliminate the impact if need be.

Yes it is entirely off base. The absolute MAXIMUM that last year would cost the Knicks would be $43MM. Deadspin did an article stating that it would be $58MM, then went back and corrected it to $43MM after correcting misinformation they had about the Knicks' salary cap situation last year.

Fair enough. That's still far above the contract value, which I think is the more important point than the exact figures. But again, shouldn't have been an insurmountable obstacle.


It probably could have been avoided if Dolan hadn't been an idiot. A four year contract at $5.2MM the first year with maximum increases each year. I can't imagine Lin turning that down.
 
2012-07-18 06:03:00 PM

you have pee hands: The Knicks have absolutely zero chance to win a title in the next three years with or without Lin.


Jersey sales and knicks on TV would go up immensely though, there is no denying that they were a better team with him out there, carmelo is proving just how useless he really is.
 
2012-07-18 06:04:53 PM
All this talk about the China market doesn't really get how Linsanity works.

He's Chinese-American. He might still be a big deal in China, but less so than say Yao (Yao was also really good, I'm not trying to compare the two in talent.) Lin's a HUGE deal in the US, where a ton of Chinese-Americans who more or less don't care about basketball at all suddenly own Lin jerseys.
 
2012-07-18 06:13:36 PM

Dafatone: He might still be a big deal in China, but less so than say Yao


According to the associated press his streak had ratings up 40% in mainland china over the same period the previous year. Now I doubt all that many people in china watch the NBA... but I suspect the NBA would really like more of them to do so.
 
2012-07-18 06:16:30 PM
I am not sure if Lin will become a star or if he was just a one-hit wonder. However, given that the Knicks are already overpaying for two overrated superstars and a few other bit players, and considering they've spent money like it's worthless in the past decade for a crappy product, I just find this whole thing silly.

Now, it would have probably been alright to not sign Lin and just move on. However, with the comments of Knicks leadership, on AND off the court, I think they're going way too far (and even belittling Lin) just out of spite. I could understand defending the decision, but they've gone beyond that, almost a "good riddance to bad rubbish" attitude.
 
2012-07-18 06:19:13 PM

tortilla burger: If they matched Houston's offer, they would have had TWO years of cheap to decide whether they wanted to keep or trade Lin.


This is a decent point. One team's poison pill contract is another team's expiring contract that could be used to get rid of some trade bait.

Some owners could absorb a huge contract for one season even if a guy's not a very good player, as long as they were getting rid of a longer, pricier contract and freeing up cap room for the future.
 
2012-07-18 06:20:49 PM

JohnBigBootay: Now I doubt all that many people in china watch the NBA


It's the biggest sport in China.
 
2012-07-18 06:38:45 PM

HaywoodJablonski: robsul82: Due to my loyalties and coming of age in the 90s, I hope Lin becomes a superduperstar in Houston, haha. Knicks, you're the Knicksiest.

/much like last night the Mets were the Metsiest

You're a Rockets fan?


The Bulls. That's a feud that will never die, lol...merely rest for a while here and there.
 
2012-07-18 07:12:22 PM

puffy999: This is a decent point. One team's poison pill contract is another team's expiring contract that could be used to get rid of some trade bait.


This.
 
2012-07-18 07:23:54 PM
only sort of on topic since it includes melo, but i wanted to share this photo

a.espncdn.com
 
2012-07-18 07:27:38 PM

TheJoe03: It's the biggest sport in China.


All the more reason why I find it so puzzling that Dolan suddenly gets an attack of being fiscally responsible for a change.
 
2012-07-18 07:53:24 PM

A Fark Handle: what, exact, did lin do last season to make it inevitable that he will suck going forward?


This game right here.

Miami was the first to figure out not only how to shut him down, but to completely make him their biatch. The rest of the league will learn soon enough.

Lin being unavailable for the first round against Miami was the best thing that ever could have happened to him, moneywise.
 
2012-07-18 08:09:00 PM

Gulper Eel: A Fark Handle: what, exact, did lin do last season to make it inevitable that he will suck going forward?

This game right here.

Miami was the first to figure out not only how to shut him down, but to completely make him their biatch. The rest of the league will learn soon enough.

Lin being unavailable for the first round against Miami was the best thing that ever could have happened to him, moneywise.


See, when he plays well, 25 games is not a big enough of a sample size.

But if he plays poorly for 1 game? We just KNOW 100% that's how he'll play for the rest of his career!

NO other player has people saying that kind of bullshiat about him. NO other player who has the skills and who has shown a solid game has people just assuming he's a one-trick pony to be "figured out" because hey, it can't be hard work and solid fundamental ability, right?
 
2012-07-18 08:17:04 PM
Personally, I think this is a totally stupid move by the Knicks because Lin pays for himself (MSG stock tanked more than his contract after people heard they were dropping Lin) AND, even if you dislike him, you can probably trade his contract. It isn't Lin or 25 million to spend on other people, it is Lin or nothing based on the CBA.

That said, I also think that the Rockets made a dumb move. Lin on the Knicks in a city with a ton of Asian-Americans is money making machine. Lin on a shiatty (unless they get Howard, but even then...) Rockets team in Houston will not have sustained Linsanity unless he turns out to be an all star... but I think he is probably, all factors considered, merely an okay starting PG at best.

Okay PG on a shiatty team in Houston is not going to be bringing in tons of money to the Rockets. People will forget about him in a few months.
 
2012-07-18 08:20:06 PM

damageddude: I can't really blame Lin for bailing on NY. We're usually not too nice to our stars (we've booed Mantle, Ewing, Strawberry, A-Rod etc). If Lin was just average for the Knicks after signing such a huge contract the fans would have been all over his ass faster than some writer on ESPN can make a Lin-sanity joke.


I wouldnt' say Lin "bailed." By all counts he WANTED to stay in NYC (as he should, much better for maximizing his earnings). He just assumed the Knicks would match any offer.
 
2012-07-18 08:25:51 PM

the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.


Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.
 
2012-07-18 08:32:47 PM
I think it's more about Asian Americans and casual fans that drove Linsanity, not so much China or even Tawain. Hell, it seemed a lot non-black fans (black fans as well, but my point is irrelevant with that group) got hyped up for it, made it seem like more people had a shot at the NBA. Yao Ming never had major support from American fans while Lin's support is almost entirely American. He's like the Asian American Rudy or something.
 
2012-07-18 08:38:03 PM

Dafatone: Carmelo and Amare add up to what, nearly 40m a year? Between the two of them, they help the Knicks win slightly.


Slightly? Before D'Antoni, then Amare, then Melo came on board (obviously D'An is gone now, but...) the knicks were .280 winning percentage. last season they were .545
 
2012-07-18 08:42:08 PM

Bill Frist: the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.

Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.


Warning, broad generalization about a group of people I've lived among ahead:

Have you ever lived in an Asian immigrant community? They literally try to colonize neighborhoods and use newspapers in their native languages to reach that end. Extremely insular, they won't give a white neighbor a cup of sugar because they're scared you won't return the cup. On craigslist or taped to a telephone pole: "1BR Apt 4 rent Bayside $500 Chinese only." Which is a damned shame because that's a bargain. Asian neighborhoods have low crime and good public schools =)

Tangentially related, I have a suspicion my Filipino friends worship the ground Pacquiao walks on.
 
2012-07-18 08:43:57 PM

Bill Frist: the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.

Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.


When it comes to rooting for players the Chinese are like anybody else. They aren't going to root for somebody just because they are Chinese or Asian. If the person isn't good or is a bench warmer they aren't going to pay them any attention.

The Knicks knew what they had in Lin, a guy that may be marginally better than Yi Jianlin, and were willing to pay some money to see if the hype would pay off for them. But what they weren't willing to do was pay $25 million for a guy who is going to be a 7 minute a night guy. And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him. The only reason why I think the Rockets took the gamble is because they figure they can cash in whether or not he is good because they have already made inroads into China and connected with Asian fans because of Yao.
 
2012-07-18 08:49:31 PM

ongbok: Bill Frist: the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.

Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.

When it comes to rooting for players the Chinese are like anybody else. They aren't going to root for somebody just because they are Chinese or Asian. If the person isn't good or is a bench warmer they aren't going to pay them any attention.

The Knicks knew what they had in Lin, a guy that may be marginally better than Yi Jianlin, and were willing to pay some money to see if the hype would pay off for them. But what they weren't willing to do was pay $25 million for a guy who is going to be a 7 minute a night guy. And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him. The only reason why I think the Rockets took the gamble is because they figure they can cash in whether or not he is good because they have already made inroads into China and connected with Asian fans because of Yao.


That's what I meant but I ended up talking about how Asians like their own just like everyone else. ::shrug:: But yeah, you have to be good, not just any bum Asian dude.
 
2012-07-18 08:50:46 PM

TheJoe03: Don't forget, the run Lin made allowed the Knicks to even get into playoff position, the Knicks were garbage before he came in and garbage when he got hurt.


IIRC, the Knicks were a little under .500 without Lin (and something like .600 with him for that stretch.) Even at at .500 he Knicks would have been 8th seed and, through sheer luck, done better likely because Rose got injured on the Bulls.
 
2012-07-18 08:52:51 PM

IHadMeAVision: That's what I meant but I ended up talking about how Asians like their own just like everyone else. ::shrug:: But yeah, you have to be good, not just any bum Asian dude.


Well yeah, my point is that if he sucks (or is okay but on a shiatty team) I don't think he will be that big of a deal. I think his support was more from asian-americans and causal US fans than Asian fans anyway. Maybe Rockets, through their Yao Ming past, can change that, but...
 
2012-07-18 08:54:17 PM
The Knicks were imploding before Lin got there, he turned their season around. The Bucks would have been the 8 seed without him.
 
2012-07-18 08:56:59 PM

Bill Frist: the lord god: Fans in Asia and China specifically will follow him no matter what. And so will their money.

Lin is a Twainese-American Christian. He wont' get automatic followers like Yao did.

Yi Jianlin is from China and he sucked and the entirey of Asia didn't root for his teams. Frankly a little racist, or at least narrow-minded, to think Asia will just follow any player of Asian descent even if they aren't that good or on a bad team.



Ahem.

One measure of Lin's appeal in China: According to the NBA, last Friday's game between the Knicks and the Los Angeles Lakers -- a contest in which Lin scored 38 points while outplaying Lakers' star Kobe Bryant -- set a viewership record for live programming on China's Sina web portal, which has a live streaming agreement with the NBA. The NBA declined to reveal specific traffic numbers for the game.

Link
 
2012-07-18 09:03:28 PM

TheJoe03: The Knicks were imploding before Lin got there, he turned their season around. The Bucks would have been the 8 seed without him.


possibly (although again, they would have made playoffs keeping their win percentage from non-Lin games) but that doesn't really say much about whether orn ot he will be good or the Knicks need him now. I'm not big on Felton or aging Kidd, but the knicks had NO ONE running point last year before Lin. Amazing they won as many as they did without him.
 
2012-07-18 09:08:08 PM

ongbok: And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him.


Am I seriously reading this? You think defenses weren't paying attention to him in the games he was playing well? Defenses had to completely plan their game around him to get any kind of result, and even then he was still pretty good. The Miami game was ONE game, and if 25 games isn't a big enough sample size, 1 game certainly isn't a big enough sample size. Plus you're assuming a 23 year old player has a 100% chance of peaking in his first 25 starts? That's beyond insane.

I swear, you put an Asian guy shorter than 7 feet in an NBA uniform and everyone just goes bonkers.
 
2012-07-18 09:09:48 PM

Bill Frist: TheJoe03: The Knicks were imploding before Lin got there, he turned their season around. The Bucks would have been the 8 seed without him.

possibly (although again, they would have made playoffs keeping their win percentage from non-Lin games) but that doesn't really say much about whether orn ot he will be good or the Knicks need him now. I'm not big on Felton or aging Kidd, but the knicks had NO ONE running point last year before Lin. Amazing they won as many as they did without him.


I actually agree that they were imploding. Look at the list of teams the Knicks lost to pre-Linsanity. It's horrifying. I mean, the Bobcats are on it.

/the Bobcats!
 
2012-07-18 09:17:45 PM
Knicks were in a horrible stretch before Lin (and his stretch was super exciting!), but they were still more or less on track for the 8th seed. And in the games after Lin went down, they went 12-5. Not really sure I'd call them "garbage after" he left. Unless you are counting the playoffs when they lost 4-1 to eventual champs Miami while suffering a ton of injuries.
 
2012-07-18 09:30:56 PM
FireZs: ongbok: And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him.

Am I seriously reading this? You think defenses weren't paying attention to him in the games he was playing well? Defenses had to completely plan their game around him to get any kind of result, and even then he was still pretty good. The Miami game was ONE game, and if 25 games isn't a big enough sample size, 1 game certainly isn't a big enough sample size. Plus you're assuming a 23 year old player has a 100% chance of peaking in his first 25 starts? That's beyond insane.

I swear, you put an Asian guy shorter than 7 feet in an NBA uniform and everyone just goes bonkers.


Nope defenses weren't paying attention to him. They played him very loosely and concentrated on other players. They treated him like a first year unknown who they weren't concerned with.When he started putting up points consistently and some teams decided they didn't want to be part of the Lin show, they started throwing other guys at him and throwing different defenses at him like they would do with more experience players, and guess what, his scoring went way down and his turnovers, which were already high, went up. Miami was just one team that did this, other teams also did it. And no teams didn't have to plan their entire strategy to stop him, it just involved throwing different looks and people at him.
 
2012-07-18 09:45:26 PM
FireZs: But if he plays poorly for 1 game? We just KNOW 100% that's how he'll play for the rest of his career!

NO other player has people saying that kind of bullshiat about him. NO other player who has the skills and who has shown a solid game has people just assuming he's a one-trick pony to be "figured out" because hey, it can't be hard work and solid fundamental ability, right?


ongbok puts it better than I do. His game is far from solid. That Miami game was the start of teams having figured out Lin's many weaknesses. He may thrive briefly against western teams that haven't seen him in person yet, but I will be stunned if he averages better than 10 points and five assists a game in the coming year.

The book on Lin is a lot like the book on thousands of triple-A sluggers who look like Willie Mays until somebody throws them a curveball.
 
2012-07-18 09:48:48 PM
ongbok: Nope defenses weren't paying attention to him. They played him very loosely and concentrated on other players. They treated him like a first year unknown who they weren't concerned with.When he started putting up points consistently and some teams decided they didn't want to be part of the Lin show, they started throwing other guys at him and throwing different defenses at him like they would do with more experience players, and guess what, his scoring went way down and his turnovers, which were already high, went up. Miami was just one team that did this, other teams also did it. And no teams didn't have to plan their entire strategy to stop him, it just involved throwing different looks and people at him.

Yeah, and you think that because his numbers went down, he should be a 7 minute/game bench warmer (never mind that he was already doing better right before he was injured). His numbers were still better than Kidd or Felton even after teams "figured him out," but somehow, unlike every other 23 year old NBA player, he has a 0% chance of improving, and defenses will magically be able to reduce his production to near zero? Please. This is beyond exaggeration, it's derangement.
 
2012-07-18 09:53:54 PM
Gulper Eel: ongbok puts it better than I do. His game is far from solid. That Miami game was the start of teams having figured out Lin's many weaknesses. He may thrive briefly against western teams that haven't seen him in person yet, but I will be stunned if he averages better than 10 points and five assists a game in the coming year.

The book on Lin is a lot like the book on thousands of triple-A sluggers who look like Willie Mays until somebody throws them a curveball.


Oh really. So single-handedly winning that game against the Sixers (no defensive slouches) long after teams have "figured him out" just magically doesn't count somehow? Also, once again, why is he the ONLY 23 year old NBA player who has a ZERO percent chance of improvement?
 
2012-07-18 10:04:53 PM

FireZs: So single-handedly winning that game against the Sixers


Stoudemire led the team with 21 that night and Lin was 4-17 from the field with 4 assists. Lin saved himself that night going 10-10 from the line.
 
2012-07-18 10:18:02 PM
ongbok: And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him.

considering lin did much of what he did when melo and/or amare were hurt, what exactly were the defenses paying attention to during those game? the girls on the dance team? lin's pick and roll game with tyson chandler was solid.

lin's a sold back-up at least. sure miami's d contained him one night, but miami can contain kd.
 
2012-07-18 10:39:49 PM

Gulper Eel: FireZs: So single-handedly winning that game against the Sixers

Stoudemire led the team with 21 that night and Lin was 4-17 from the field with 4 assists. Lin saved himself that night going 10-10 from the line.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. Bad stats are gold-plated indicators of the truth, while good stats are misleading and should be explained away. Going into the 4th quarter of that game it was a 1-point game that could've gone either way. Lin was the one who stepped up and won that game for them. Yeah, some of those points were free throws, but 4 of those free throw points were were from him getting into the paint, not clock-stopping fouls by the sixers.

And, yet once again, why do you think that he's the only 23 yr old NBA player that can never improve?
 
2012-07-18 10:46:07 PM

FireZs: And, yet once again, why do you think that he's the only 23 yr old NBA player that can never improve?


I think there is a good chances Lin can improve and be good. But while Lin "haters" might ignore good stats for bad ones, the same is true of Lin superfans. Lin didn't seem particularly impressive to scouts or in college. He wasn't a starter as a rookie, but he did get minutes, and didn't get good stats. And while I love D'Antoni, he has a track record of making PGs look way better than they are. Hell, Chris DUHON (!!!) looked good for awhile under D'Anotni before breaking down. The latter I think actually might compare to Lin. His game seems like the type that might break down if he is forced to play 82 games a year.

And the fact that when he looked best was when Amare and Melo were injured in part just means he looks good when there aren't better players on the floor to take the shots. That's true of most players.

Again, I'm not saying he can't be good. It is hard to know. But there ARE legit reasons to doubt.
 
2012-07-18 10:58:21 PM

A Fark Handle: ongbok: And anybody who thinks that he is going to be anything more than a 7 minute a night bench warmer is deluded, especially when you see what happened to his performance once the defenses actually started paying a little attention to him.

considering lin did much of what he did when melo and/or amare were hurt, what exactly were the defenses paying attention to during those game? the girls on the dance team? lin's pick and roll game with tyson chandler was solid.

lin's a sold back-up at least. sure miami's d contained him one night, but miami can contain kd.


Actually Mello only missed the first 8 games, and Amare missed the first 4 games that Lin started. So during the 4 games that they were both out the Knicks did have other players on the team, like Chandler and Davis, that I'm pretty sure teams were more worried about than a completely unknown guard from the developmental league. And there where more teams that contained Lin than Miami.
 
2012-07-18 11:02:14 PM

FireZs: This is exactly what I'm talking about. Bad stats are gold-plated indicators of the truth, while good stats are misleading and should be explained away. Going into the 4th quarter of that game it was a 1-point game that could've gone either way. Lin was the one who stepped up and won that game for them. Yeah, some of those points were free throws, but 4 of those free throw points were were from him getting into the paint, not clock-stopping fouls by the sixers.


4-17 is a bad game. If he hadn't shot like total shiat, maybe they would have been up by 10 starting the 4th instead of it being a one point game. If you make one shot the whole game, and it's at the buzzer to win, you didn't singlehandedly win the game.

I think Lin will be a useful player. I don't think he's going to be a star but he should be a useful starter. Is that worth $60M including luxury tax to the Knicks, when his skills and Melo's skills don't really mesh? I don't think so.
 
2012-07-18 11:07:50 PM

steamingpile: you have pee hands: The Knicks have absolutely zero chance to win a title in the next three years with or without Lin.

Jersey sales and knicks on TV would go up immensely though, there is no denying that they were a better team with him out there, carmelo is proving just how useless he really is.


I'm pretty sure jersey sales and international income is split 30 ways amongst the teams. He increased the value of the MSG brand but I'm not sure how useful that is because Dolan clearly isn't looking to sell. He's not going to sell more tickets because they sell out anyway. He probably provides some more marketing opportunities and TV viewers locally in the short term but will people get bored after half a season if it turns out he's above average but flawed, and the Knicks are a .500 team again? My extensive research suggests there's a lot to do in New York and everyone's got a very short attention span.

I'm sure Stern loves the hell out of Lin, and the guy is worth a lot to the NBA, but I'm not sure he's worth as much to the Knicks as people think.
 
2012-07-18 11:26:57 PM

Bill Frist: Again, I'm not saying he can't be good. It is hard to know. But there ARE legit reasons to doubt.


Yeah, if you say that he's an ok player who's good enough to start and might be great or not so great in the future I would have no argument with that. It's the "he's going to be just a little better than yi jianlin" "he'll never average more than 10 pts/5 assists ever again" "he'll be playing 7 minutes a game soon enough" comments that I think are batshiat crazy.
 
2012-07-18 11:31:22 PM

you have pee hands: FireZs: This is exactly what I'm talking about. Bad stats are gold-plated indicators of the truth, while good stats are misleading and should be explained away. Going into the 4th quarter of that game it was a 1-point game that could've gone either way. Lin was the one who stepped up and won that game for them. Yeah, some of those points were free throws, but 4 of those free throw points were were from him getting into the paint, not clock-stopping fouls by the sixers.

4-17 is a bad game. If he hadn't shot like total shiat, maybe they would have been up by 10 starting the 4th instead of it being a one point game. If you make one shot the whole game, and it's at the buzzer to win, you didn't singlehandedly win the game.

I think Lin will be a useful player. I don't think he's going to be a star but he should be a useful starter. Is that worth $60M including luxury tax to the Knicks, when his skills and Melo's skills don't really mesh? I don't think so.


Sure, I don't dispute that. But I bring that game up not as an argument that he's an all-star, but to counter the notion that teams have him "figured out" and he'll never meaningfully score on a defense again. If that's true then there's no way Lin can do what he did in the 4th quarter of that game, since the sixers already "figured him out" for the first 3 quarters. I'm sure you'll agree that being realistic about his abilities includes not going crazy on the downside either.
 
2012-07-18 11:59:39 PM
People are missing how this whole thing went down:

1) Knicks told Lin he had to go set a market before they would give him an offer
2) Rockets initially were offering Lin a 4 yr deal with $5 million, $5.2 million, $9.3 million, $9.3 million. The fourth year was a team option. Lin verbally said he would sign this deal.
3) Knicks made a huge show of talking how they would match this offer
4) All this talk ended up causing Houston to up the deal that Lin actually signed so that it was $14.8 million in that third year.

The Knicks should have initially offered Lin a 3 or 4 year deal @5 million per year. I have no idea why you wouldn't be willing to pay him that much over that time span. Since they inexplicably didn't even give him an offer, they should have then kept their mouths shut after Houston came out with their offer.

Assuming that the Knicks would have been willing to pay him $5 mill per year, then that 3rd year of the original Houston deal only amounts to costing the Knicks somewhere between $4-$8 million more than they would have given him anyway ($4 if they somehow aren't over the cap, $8 if they are) That's certainly palatable, since the 4th year is a team option, they could dump him after the 3rd if he didn't pan out.

Instead they talk so much about matching that Houston comes in and offers $5.5 million more in the 3rd year, which now places that cap hit at $9.5-$19 million. That's a much tougher decision to make, and at that price the Knicks are making the right move to let him go. However, it's their own fault that they even had to make that decision since they could have played this whole thing differently. Typical Knicks I guess.
 
2012-07-19 12:16:17 AM

Gulper Eel: He may thrive briefly against western teams that haven't seen him in person yet, but I will be stunned if he averages better than 10 points and five assists a game in the coming year.


Except for one thing: he's a Harvard kid, so some assessors seem to be banking on his ability to outsmart other players and adapt to their adaptations.

I'm not saying they're right, or being even remotely sensible (I've known too many Harvard kids in my day to take the school seriously or as anything like the monolithic bastion of brilliance it purports to be), But that seems to be the subtext in some appraisals of Lin's future: he's a smart enough person and a smart enough player that he can continue to be useful even after games when it looks as though other teams have solved his game, because he'll switch it up to counter their changes. It's a gamble, and not one I'm sure is worth making at that cost to the 'bockers, but it'll be an interesting experiment.
 
2012-07-19 12:20:34 AM

roncofooddehydrator: The Knicks should have initially offered Lin a 3 or 4 year deal @5 million per year. I have no idea why you wouldn't be willing to pay him that much over that time span. Since they inexplicably didn't even give him an offer, they should have then kept their mouths shut after Houston came out with their offer.


I do agree with this ALTHOUGH i'm not sure why so many commentators assume Lin would have taken whatever low offer the Knicks set out. He seems like he wanted to get paid--and I don't blame him for that. You gotta get your contract while you are healthy and able--so why wouldn't he have tested the market anyway?
 
2012-07-19 01:11:35 AM

Bill Frist: roncofooddehydrator: The Knicks should have initially offered Lin a 3 or 4 year deal @5 million per year. I have no idea why you wouldn't be willing to pay him that much over that time span. Since they inexplicably didn't even give him an offer, they should have then kept their mouths shut after Houston came out with their offer.

I do agree with this ALTHOUGH i'm not sure why so many commentators assume Lin would have taken whatever low offer the Knicks set out. He seems like he wanted to get paid--and I don't blame him for that. You gotta get your contract while you are healthy and able--so why wouldn't he have tested the market anyway?


He many not have accepted an offer from the Knicks and tested the market anyway, but then PR-wise the Knicks would have come out ok since they would have made an attempt. The way things played out, it looks like they couldn't be bothered to come up with an idea on how much Lin was worth to them and were either lying about matching the initial Houston offer or were so bad at navigating free agency that they let Houston get the better of them.
 
2012-07-19 02:47:53 AM

FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.

Let me guess...you are Asian right?
/I'm Asian too but I don't care..
 
2012-07-19 04:20:17 AM

ongbok: So during the 4 games that they were both out the Knicks did have other players on the team, like Chandler and Davis, that I'm pretty sure teams were more worried about than a completely unknown guard from the developmental league.


yeah everyone fears the offensive powers of chandler and davis...while you're at it why not claim that jr smith was a dangerous scorer too. i respect chandler's pnr offense when combined with a good pnr pg, but he's not exactly a threat otherwise.

/as if teams need 4 games to a make adjustments.
//guard who's beating you in the first quarter...
 
2012-07-19 04:51:07 AM

Bill Frist: He seems like he wanted to get paid--and I don't blame him for that. You gotta get your contract while you are healthy and able--so why wouldn't he have tested the market anyway?


If he wanted to get paid, he's had many, many endorsement deals that he's turned down that would have paid him way more than he'll ever earn in the NBA.

The Knicks basically told Lin to go test the market, so he does. Houston comes up with an offer that he says he'd sign. NY makes a big brouhaha about matching that one. Houston changes its offer; I don't believe they submitted that first offer officially for him to sign. Lin signs the one offer he's been officially given (what else is he going to do?). Dolan gets pissed and now introducing the starting PG for the NY Knicks, Raymond Felton.

Stupid thing is Lin would have almost certainly signed a $5 mil per year for 3 year deal from NY. But they never offered it. They said, "go figure out your value" and he did.
 
2012-07-19 08:07:38 AM

balleravenue: FreakinB: This is dumb. So dumb.

Lin's the only thing that's made being a Knicks fan legitimately exciting since about 2000 or so. I've hadn't seen this city so excited for them in years. Sure he's not exactly proven and his turnovers were high, but he was in an aggressive system and was essentially a rookie learning on the job. Even with the turnovers he had a good PER, and the Knicks immediately started winning more often when he started playing.

The first two years of the contract were cheap, so there really isn't much of a risk for those years. Maybe Lin plays well and maybe he doesn't, but it's a relatively inexpensive gamble. And yes, there's the luxury tax issue in the 3rd year. But in the worst case scenario he's an expiring contract that can be used in a trade at that point. Supposedly there's even a provision that would have allowed them to spread out that year's cap hit if they chose. And besides, since when do the Knicks care about spending? After years of throwing around money like crazy, you draw the line here, when it's a guy who was immediately beloved?

And now we replace him with Raymond Felton. We know what we're getting from Raymond Felton, and there's no chance it's better than meh.

I don't see a reason for this beyond Dolan making a (misguided) point.
Let me guess...you are Asian right?
/I'm Asian too but I don't care..


Nope. Whiter than white.
 
2012-07-19 09:06:35 AM
It's a no-Lin situation.
 
2012-07-19 09:26:56 AM

Moopy Mac: Yes it is entirely off base. The absolute MAXIMUM that last year would cost the Knicks would be $43MM. Deadspin did an article stating that it would be $58MM, then went back and corrected it to $43MM after correcting misinformation they had about the Knicks' salary cap situation last year.


Ah, took the wrong info from the original article then. Still, $43 million is ridiculous for a mediocre point guard.

xpisblack: Except for one thing: he's a Harvard kid, so some assessors seem to be banking on his ability to outsmart other players and adapt to their adaptations.


Because for some reason people can't understand that athletic smarts and book smarts aren't the same thing. Lin wasn't particularly great even in the Ivy League.

So it's a case of whether you believe a guy who never shined in HS, college, or with any of his teams in the NBA for several years...is that more like what he is, or are we to believe that he's going to continue to perform more like he performed in a few weeks against miserable competition in an incredibly point-guard-friendly offense? Oh, and he's coming back from knee surgery now.

TheJoe03: The Knicks were imploding before Lin got there, he turned their season around. The Bucks would have been the 8 seed without him.


Too bad, because they could've maybe won the lottery and gotten a good draft pick - even No. 1 overall would've cost them less in salary than Lin. Take Davis, maybe trade Chandler back to Dallas, get a lot more cap room?
 
2012-07-19 09:34:14 AM

FireZs: Sure, I don't dispute that. But I bring that game up not as an argument that he's an all-star, but to counter the notion that teams have him "figured out" and he'll never meaningfully score on a defense again. If that's true then there's no way Lin can do what he did in the 4th quarter of that game, since the sixers already "figured him out" for the first 3 quarters. I'm sure you'll agree that being realistic about his abilities includes not going crazy on the downside either.


Well, pretty much everyone in the NBA can score some points if you don't worry about efficiency. I think Lin will probably be ok. It's just weird to take a game where he went 4-17 as an example that teams haven't 'figured him out'.

Also, as good as the 6ers are defensively their crunch time offense is cover-your-eyes terrible, so coming back against them isn't that unlikely.
 
2012-07-19 09:39:12 AM
The Knicks also signed Pablo Priggioni. He's probably better than Lin.
 
2012-07-19 10:36:23 AM

IAmRight: xpisblack: Except for one thing: he's a Harvard kid, so some assessors seem to be banking on his ability to outsmart other players and adapt to their adaptations.

Because for some reason people can't understand that athletic smarts and book smarts aren't the same thing. Lin wasn't particularly great even in the Ivy League.

So it's a case of whether you believe a guy who never shined in HS, college, or with any of his teams in the NBA for several years...is that more like what he is, or are we to believe that he's going to continue to perform more like he performed in a few weeks against miserable competition in an incredibly point-guard-friendly offense? Oh, and he's coming back from knee surgery now.


He was good in college. Just not amazing, and a large part of that is that he didn't have much to work with around him. When he was going well for the Knicks, it was clear he does a good job facilitating. Hard to do that when everyone else kinda sucks.

Plus, he had a better team in his conference: Link

/had to get that in there.
 
2012-07-19 10:47:11 AM

Dafatone: He was good in college. Just not amazing,


My goal with that was a) to point out that it's not like he even dominated the Ivy League - so it's kinda silly to expect him to be a top NBA player. He really showed nothing until those few games with the Knicks, so is it more likely that he's not that great, as every bit of his career outside of 20 or so games shows? Or is it that he's as good as those 20 games showed? I tend toward believing the former.

And b) to allow you to point out what you pointed out!
 
2012-07-19 11:14:12 AM

IAmRight: Because for some reason people can't understand that athletic smarts and book smarts aren't the same thing. Lin wasn't particularly great even in the Ivy League.

So it's a case of whether you believe a guy who never shined in HS, college, or with any of his teams in the NBA for several years...is that more like what he is, or are we to believe that he's going to continue to perform more like he performed in a few weeks against miserable competition in an incredibly point-guard-friendly offense? Oh, and he's coming back from knee surgery now.


Kind of my point-- such a big deal was made of his being Asian and from Harvard, some folks started to think that those two things actually said something about his talent. Being Asian certainly helped his bankability; being from Harvard and in the NBA during the same year that Harvard made the NCAA tournament for the first time in, what, 65+ years? made people tend to overstate his ability. Never mind that none of his university teams ever made the tournament, he was coached by the same guy who eventually got the school into the tournament and Lin's presence in the NBA may be a factor in the school's ability to get good players in future, so he retroactively gets some credit from some. Not his fault, of course, but it's a little silly.

That said, I disagree with your claim that he didn't shine in high school or the Ivy League. I mean, he wasn't jaw-dropping, but he was the standout player on his 32-1 high school team and led them to victory in the California D--II championship over the heavily favoured Mater Dei. After a pretty crappy freshman year in college, he improved and kept improving. He wound up a two-time All-Ivy First Team selection (each time a unanimous choice) and set some records at Harvard. He was also the first person in Ivy League history to score at least 1450 points, 450 rebounds, 400 assists, and 200 steals. In his junior year, he was the only D-I player to be in the top ten for his conference in basically every category-- points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocked shots, FG%, FT%, and 3PT%. Some of these are carefully selected numbers, to be sure, and no one would confuse him with the second coming of Bill Bradley to the Ivy, but he did get some attention in university (including by coaches at schools with better teams and by some NBA scouts). Of course, it's the Ivy League, so maybe the numbers are a little soft, even though Harvard were nationally ranked this year (24th, I think). But Lin was supposed to be good because he was versatile-- there was no part of the game he couldn't play pretty well. So, now some assessors figure: not only is he smart (Harvard), he's basketball smart (versatile and adaptable). And maybe that's worth some risk, they figure.

Now, I'm not saying he's a star-calibre player. I'm not saying I agree with any of those assessments-- again, I think the school-related mystique is stupid. I'm not even saying Lin's even that good at all. I'm just saying that if some of his value lies in his ability to play any of several roles at a reasonably high level and to adapt sort of quickly, then maybe teams hope that he'll be able to help them out by not letting other teams shut him down for long or more than once. And some of that reputation he's earned over the years, and some comes from the silly presumption of exceptional adaptive intelligence that comes from his having gone to a smart-kid school like Harvard.

And I agree with your first bit, the one about athletic intelligence being different to academic intelligence and people sometimes not grasping that. But that said, give me a choice between two equally talented players, I'll take the smarter one every time.
 
2012-07-19 11:28:37 AM

xpisblack: And I agree with your first bit, the one about athletic intelligence being different to academic intelligence and people sometimes not grasping that. But that said, give me a choice between two equally talented players, I'll take the smarter one every time.


Of course...though I gotta say it somewhat depends on salary.

As for the standing out, I'd just point out that pretty much everyone in the NBA was the best player on their HS team and pretty much all of 'em won some state titles, so that's not a huge deal - I will say that Lin was better than I was making him out to be - he did, after all, have offers to walk-on at other places and chose Harvard because they said he'd play on their basketball team. So he could've gone to a better basketball school. And I will mention that I'm sure race did play a role in his being considered lightly coming out of HS.

But ultimately, he hasn't been spectacular and a lot of people are ignoring the fact that knee surgery ended his year last year and he averaged only 26 minutes/game - he still hasn't played more than half an NBA season ever. That's a lot of money to offer a guy at this point with his track record.

As for comparing him to Felton, Felton costs way less and also performed well in NYC. From a recent Washington Post article:

"In each of the last two seasons a New York Knicks point guard has averaged double figures in scoring and led the team in assists per game. Here's a look at their respective numbers.

Player A: 14.6 ppg, 6.2 apg, 3.1 rpg, 3.6 tpg

Player B: 17.1 ppg, 9 apg, 3.6 rpg, 3.3 tpg

Player A is Broadway sensation Jeremy Lin, who is now on his way to Houston after New York failed to match the Rockets' massive contract offer for the coveted free agent.

And Player B? Well, that would be Raymond Felton during his run with the Knicks in the 2010-11 season. The same Raymond Felton the Knicks brought back last week with the Lin situation still in flux."

As you can see, Lin's run was nice, but the whole reason for Linsanity had to do with his Asianness, the nice coincidence that he came in during cupcake central, and Novak also came on strong around then and was equally important to the run - but there's nothing interesting about a white guy who can hit threes, since that's what they're supposed to do.
 
2012-07-19 11:46:02 AM

IAmRight: xpisblack: And I agree with your first bit, the one about athletic intelligence being different to academic intelligence and people sometimes not grasping that. But that said, give me a choice between two equally talented players, I'll take the smarter one every time.

Of course...though I gotta say it somewhat depends on salary.

As for the standing out, I'd just point out that pretty much everyone in the NBA was the best player on their HS team and pretty much all of 'em won some state titles, so that's not a huge deal - I will say that Lin was better than I was making him out to be - he did, after all, have offers to walk-on at other places and chose Harvard because they said he'd play on their basketball team. So he could've gone to a better basketball school. And I will mention that I'm sure race did play a role in his being considered lightly coming out of HS.

But ultimately, he hasn't been spectacular and a lot of people are ignoring the fact that knee surgery ended his year last year and he averaged only 26 minutes/game - he still hasn't played more than half an NBA season ever. That's a lot of money to offer a guy at this point with his track record.

As for comparing him to Felton, Felton costs way less and also performed well in NYC. From a recent Washington Post article:

"In each of the last two seasons a New York Knicks point guard has averaged double figures in scoring and led the team in assists per game. Here's a look at their respective numbers.

Player A: 14.6 ppg, 6.2 apg, 3.1 rpg, 3.6 tpg

Player B: 17.1 ppg, 9 apg, 3.6 rpg, 3.3 tpg

Player A is Broadway sensation Jeremy Lin, who is now on his way to Houston after New York failed to match the Rockets' massive contract offer for the coveted free agent.

And Player B? Well, that would be Raymond Felton during his run with the Knicks in the 2010-11 season. The same Raymond Felton the Knicks brought back last week with the Lin situation still in flux."

As you can see, Lin's run was nice, but the ...


The money was more than averages, it was for the intangibles Lin brought including a turn around in winning, new fan base and media coverage.

But I guess you're right, who wants to over pay for a smart enthusiastic team oriented guy when you already overpay for MElo....
 
2012-07-19 11:50:11 AM

protectyourlimbs: But I guess you're right, who wants to over pay for a smart enthusiastic team oriented guy when you already overpay for MElo....


Wasn't Carmelo for the bulk of the time Lin was starting?
 
2012-07-19 12:04:44 PM

protectyourlimbs: The money was more than averages, it was for the intangibles Lin brought including a turn around in winning, new fan base and media coverage.


They're the Knicks, they aren't having problems with a small fanbase or media coverage. And the winning thing is ridiculously overblown - they beat a bunch of crappy teams and lost to anyone decent (well, they beat the Lakers and their incompetent PGs).
 
2012-07-19 12:10:01 PM
They had a great 8 game run under Lin, but also a six game losing streak. Ovreall their record with him wasn't THAT much better than their record without.

Lin did literally bring a "turn around" because the Knicks were int he middle of a losing streak when he started. but it wasnt' like he completely changed the caliber of the team.

Their best stretch against good teams (Lin's wins were mostly over weak teams) was actually at the end of the year after Lin was injured.
 
2012-07-19 12:12:22 PM

IAmRight: they beat a bunch of crappy teams and lost to anyone decent (well, they beat the Lakers and their incompetent PGs).


This is a bit of an overstatement though. They beat the Lakers, Mavs, Pacers twice, Sixers, and Hawks when Lin was around. They weren't only beating shiat teams.

But yeah, it still is overblown.
 
2012-07-19 12:21:08 PM

IAmRight: protectyourlimbs: The money was more than averages, it was for the intangibles Lin brought including a turn around in winning, new fan base and media coverage.

They're the Knicks, they aren't having problems with a small fanbase or media coverage. And the winning thing is ridiculously overblown - they beat a bunch of crappy teams and lost to anyone decent (well, they beat the Lakers and their incompetent PGs).


Winning teams have chemistry along with stars and yeah, I get the Knicks are in NY but even they don't mind free publicity and more fans throwing dollars their way. In NY they are fine but global fans dont follow teams, they follow players more.
 
2012-07-19 12:47:36 PM
Stephen A. Smith being 'Melo's soundboard.

You know, I'm really gonna enjoy seeing Melo and the Knicks fail spectacularly. Really, really am.
 
2012-07-20 07:01:09 AM

bhcompy: Lin's contract is a bad idea with the Knicks. If he doesn't work out, he's another in a long long line of Dolan overpaying some loser by tens of millions. If he does work out, yea, fine, but this isn't Denver with Tebow, it's New York. They'll murder him as soon as he sucks as he's not anywhere close to Jeter untouchability.

Now, with Houston, that contract might actually work out. Houston has Chinese inroads already because of Yao, and, despite the fact that Lin is a born and raised American, it would seem that it would generate interest from Taiwan and China given his ancestry and the way basketball is booming there. Basically, Houston is the closest thing to being the NBA's Seattle Mariners


Yes, because there's hardly any asian people in NYC who could identify with Lin...

\\hell, I'm white and grew up in a NYC suburb and can identify with Lin. I went to public school with many 'lins'.
 
Displayed 207 of 207 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report