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(MSNBC)   Dolphins appear to do nonlinear mathmatics, still can't beat Patriots   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 47
    More: Cool, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, University of Southampton, animal cognition, Explainer, associate dean, formal organization  
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8197 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jul 2012 at 9:55 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-18 09:56:56 AM  
 
2012-07-18 09:58:58 AM  
Well played,subby!
 
2012-07-18 09:59:10 AM  
So long, thanks for all the fish.
 
2012-07-18 10:02:20 AM  
Dolphins are such wonderful creatures. And they're rapists.
 
2012-07-18 10:04:43 AM  
The answer is 42
 
2012-07-18 10:07:14 AM  
(e^(pi*i))^2) fish,
2 cos 2 fish,
680nm fish,
470nm fish.
 
2012-07-18 10:07:28 AM  
Clicking anywhere but the awful thing that pops up closes the awful thing that pops up.
 
2012-07-18 10:13:19 AM  
Yeah, just like basketball players do calculus every time they shoot the ball.
 
2012-07-18 10:16:28 AM  
Have they yet evolved opposable thumbs?
 
2012-07-18 10:21:22 AM  

Dimensio: Have they yet evolved opposable thumbs?


Thumbs don't put fish on the table. Fish put fish on the table.

www.thetick.ws
 
2012-07-18 10:21:24 AM  
It's not like these stupid fish are solving non-linear equations, it's more like researchers have just been able to use non-linear math to do something which a brain could do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't seem surprising, since neural nets are commonly used to do non-linear math. Most movements, e.g., reaching to pick up a banana, would also be "non-linear math". Similarly many methods for 3d reconstruction from 2d images, e.g., figuring out that yellow thing is banana shaped, can be done on a computer using "non-linear math".

That said, it sounds like neat research, but I would be interested to read the actual paper before believe MSNBC's spin of "OMG Dolphins are like really good at math that's like really hard"

/Eating a banana
//Yes I know they aren't fish but I'm feeling crochety this morning
 
2012-07-18 10:22:55 AM  

the.squid: It's not like these stupid fish are solving non-linear equations


Aw, poor jealous invertebrate.
 
2012-07-18 10:26:47 AM  

Tobin_Lam: Clicking anywhere but the awful thing that pops up closes the awful thing that pops up.


You can also just press the Esc key.
 
2012-07-18 10:28:17 AM  

the_chief: Yeah, just like basketball players do calculus every time they shoot the ball.


This. Complex math is known to be embedded in lots of brain structures all over the place, we'll be finding more.
 
2012-07-18 10:30:04 AM  
Pats have only won 64% (7 of 11) of the games when they've played the Fins over the last 10 years.

/Fin's fan, just sayin
 
2012-07-18 10:33:56 AM  

Theaetetus: (e^(pi*i))^2) fish,
2 cos 2 fish,
680nm fish,
470nm fish.


one fish, -0.83 fish, red fish, blue fish


....not quite how I remember it
 
2012-07-18 10:34:27 AM  
Yeah but my dog does advanced trigonometry...
 
2012-07-18 10:34:35 AM  
Dolphins have winning % (quite easily) over the Pats all-time.. Subby loses.
 
2012-07-18 10:37:26 AM  

chooktah: Pats have only won 64% (7 of 11) of the games when they've played the Fins over the last 10 years.

/Fin's fan, just sayin


Since the Patriots play the Dolphins twice a year, I'm pretty sure they've played more than 11 times in the past 10 years.
 
2012-07-18 10:45:05 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Theaetetus: (e^(pi*i))^2) fish,
2 cos 2 fish,
680nm fish,
470nm fish.

one fish, -0.83 fish, red fish, blue fish


....not quite how I remember it


Too many fat farkers around here... Someone ate my pi.
 
2012-07-18 10:48:14 AM  
Your dolphin wants Pi.
 
2012-07-18 10:48:22 AM  

Theaetetus: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Theaetetus: (e^(pi*i))^2) fish,
2 cos 2 fish,
680nm fish,
470nm fish.

one fish, -0.83 fish, red fish, blue fish


....not quite how I remember it

Too many fat farkers around here... Someone ate my pi.


oh good, for a minute I was worried I would have to give most of a fish back
 
2012-07-18 10:50:56 AM  

Counter_Intelligent: Dolphins are such wonderful creatures. And they're rapists.


images.tvrage.com
 
2012-07-18 10:52:45 AM  

the.squid: It's not like these stupid fish are solving non-linear equations, it's more like researchers have just been able to use non-linear math to do something which a brain could do.


This. The article and the research are completely farking stupid. Maybe next they would like to explain how our brains are able to interpret the electro-chemical signals coming from our retinas and arrange them as a coherent field of vision. Then we can have "ZOMG Human baby does fourier transformz in its head!! Early admitted to Harvard, given tenure teaching advanced bubble blowing and evacuating waste at both ends!"
 
2012-07-18 10:54:16 AM  

SuperChuck: chooktah: Pats have only won 64% (7 of 11) of the games when they've played the Fins over the last 10 years.

/Fin's fan, just sayin

Since the Patriots play the Dolphins twice a year, I'm pretty sure they've played more than 11 times in the past 10 years.


Series history here. Last 10 years (2002 - 2011 seasons), it's Pats are 14-6 (0.700). Dolphins lead 50-43 overall (including playoffs), which shows just how good the Dolphins were prior to 2000 and just how bad the Pats were prior to Belichick.
 
2012-07-18 10:58:09 AM  
Human intelligence is impressive, but the fact is why have the top stop on the food chain partially by luck. There are a LOT of very smart creatures on this planet:

Things that would be ruling the world instead of us if they could talk:
alluniquethings.com
pin.primate.wisc.edu

Things that would be ruling the world instread of us if they had thumbs:
www.theoriginaldolphinwatch.com
themanicgardener.com

Things that would be ruling the world instead of us if they just lived a little longer:
static.ddmcdn.com
 
2012-07-18 11:05:48 AM  
Yeah and when monkeys fling shiat they calculate the trajectory with a slide rule. Amazing little bastards.
 
2012-07-18 11:07:00 AM  
Either the article is the usual mangled sci-reporting crap, or the researchers are overthinking things. They're not doing the math; they have an organ capable of carrying out the material equivalent of those mathematical functions. Our brains conduct pattern matching operations all the time. We don't sit there consciously running Boolean and Bayesian functions; our brains have evolved to implement such functions through cellular pathways, along with information storage, symbolic association, etc.

What's really mind-blowing to me is what dolphins might be able to do with those echolocation capabilities. For example, could they communicate sonic "images" to each other, or otherwise manipulate their songs to trigger particular reactions within the echo reception organs?

We could evolve to do this, given the right pressures and a heaping pile of luck. There's a guy with no sight here who uses ranging clicks on occasion. We have to put much more work in for much less return, but there's no reason we couldn't eventually develop the biological adaptations to do this much more efficiently. It's not likely, but then neither are many things that happen.
 
2012-07-18 11:30:08 AM  
LACES OUT!

www.lobshots.com
 
2012-07-18 11:31:20 AM  

the_chief: Yeah, just like basketball players do calculus every time they shoot the ball.


Came to say that about outfielders catching fly balls.
 
2012-07-18 11:52:07 AM  

fnordest: The answer is 42 1972


Fixed for the NFL portion of the thread.

/Yes, we know you were really good once upon a time
 
2012-07-18 12:19:22 PM  
Dolphins would make excellent spaceship captains, if only we could engineer them to be speak and be better tool users.
 
2012-07-18 12:37:02 PM  
www.themarysue.com
Can't do without them on the science team, now that we've deciphered their language.
 
2012-07-18 12:37:36 PM  
Yeah, just like basketball players do calculus every time they shoot the ball.
Yeah and when monkeys fling shiat they calculate the trajectory with a slide rule. Amazing little bastards.


X=X0 + V0xt + 0.5 at2 is calculus?
I know what you are trying to say here guys, but you are making yourselves look moronic by picking a really bad example.

The article and the research are completely farking stupid.
Either the article is the usual mangled sci-reporting crap, or the researchers are overthinking things.


Yes, because finding ways to make our sonar better is stupid. It's not like we have a military force that depends on seeing underwater or anything right? Stupid overthinking scientist sees an animal do something we can't and decides to find out how it's done so we can benefit. What idiots.
 
2012-07-18 12:41:20 PM  
I do quantum statistics every time I stumble home from the/a bar. The placement of my feet is completely unpredictable but there is a trend towards sleeping locations.
 
2012-07-18 12:43:03 PM  
Non-linear biological systems behaving in non-linear ways? Color me shocked.
 
2012-07-18 12:57:52 PM  

DerAppie: I do quantum statistics every time I stumble home from the/a bar. The placement of my feet is completely unpredictable but there is a trend towards sleeping locations.


You drunkard
 
2012-07-18 01:05:24 PM  

NotARocketScientist: Yeah, just like basketball players do calculus every time they shoot the ball.
Yeah and when monkeys fling shiat they calculate the trajectory with a slide rule. Amazing little bastards.

X=X0 + V0xt + 0.5 at2 is calculus?
I know what you are trying to say here guys, but you are making yourselves look moronic by picking a really bad example.

The article and the research are completely farking stupid.
Either the article is the usual mangled sci-reporting crap, or the researchers are overthinking things.

Yes, because finding ways to make our sonar better is stupid. It's not like we have a military force that depends on seeing underwater or anything right? Stupid overthinking scientist sees an animal do something we can't and decides to find out how it's done so we can benefit. What idiots.


Do lighten up. All people are saying is that going from "behaviour of dolphins is best described using non-linear mathematics" to "dolphins do non-linear mathematics" is overthinking it or bad journalism. No one is denouncing the use of finding ways to improve sonar.
 
2012-07-18 01:17:57 PM  

StrangeQ: the.squid: It's not like these stupid fish are solving non-linear equations, it's more like researchers have just been able to use non-linear math to do something which a brain could do.

This. The article and the research are completely farking stupid.


It sounds like the research is leading us towards better ways of processing sonar, which isn't stupid. I expect it's just a case of the article's authors not getting it, or trying to make it more sensationalist.
 
Mef
2012-07-18 01:19:42 PM  
CSB time.....

Back in the university, I worked part time tutoring varsity athletes....One of the guys I tutored later went on to be signed by the Dolphins. So at the very least there is one person on the Dolphins team who knows multivariate calculus.


/Or at least knew it at the time...
//that stuff is easy to forget if you don't use it
 
2012-07-18 01:21:14 PM  

NotARocketScientist: Yeah, just like basketball players do calculus every time they shoot the ball.
Yeah and when monkeys fling shiat they calculate the trajectory with a slide rule. Amazing little bastards.

X=X0 + V0xt + 0.5 at2 is calculus?
I know what you are trying to say here guys, but you are making yourselves look moronic by picking a really bad example.

The article and the research are completely farking stupid.
Either the article is the usual mangled sci-reporting crap, or the researchers are overthinking things.

Yes, because finding ways to make our sonar better is stupid. It's not like we have a military force that depends on seeing underwater or anything right? Stupid overthinking scientist sees an animal do something we can't and decides to find out how it's done so we can benefit. What idiots.


Did you even read the rest of my post, or did you just see that and blow your stack? The way the article quotes the researchers, it makes it sound as if they think the dolphins are consciously running calculations on sonar returns, which given the processing speed and consistency of advanced math capability necessary is far less likely (and efficient) than simply having biological structures specifically evolved to carry out such operations on particular sensory inputs. Frankly, I think it's likely the article writer took some analogistic statements by the researchers wildly out of context.
 
2012-07-18 01:48:57 PM  
Someone has wayyyy too much money for research and wayyyy too much time to spend it.
 
2012-07-18 01:52:30 PM  

DerAppie:
Do lighten up. All people are saying is that going from "behaviour of dolphins is best described using non-linear mathematics" to "dolphins do non-linear mathematics" is overthinking it or bad journalism. No one is denouncing the use of finding ways to improve sonar.


Don't overestimate the ability of Farkers to understand science:

Challam: Someone has wayyyy too much money for research and wayyyy too much time to spend it.

 
2012-07-18 02:13:02 PM  

PlatinumDragon: Frankly, I think it's likely the article writer took some analogistic statements by the researchers wildly out of context.


While this does not prove that dolphins are capable of undertaking such nonlinear mathematical processing, it establishes the fact that such processing makes these dolphin pulses effective in bubbly water for distinguishing between targets and clutter, which is not achieved by the standard sonar processing used here on the same data.

(doi:10.1098/rspa.2012.0247)
 
2012-07-18 03:05:06 PM  

NotARocketScientist: Yeah, just like basketball players do calculus every time they shoot the ball.
Yeah and when monkeys fling shiat they calculate the trajectory with a slide rule. Amazing little bastards.

X=X0 + V0xt + 0.5 at2 is calculus?
I know what you are trying to say here guys, but you are making yourselves look moronic by picking a really bad example.


Um yeah, that is calculus. Extremely basic calculus, but it is.
 
2012-07-18 06:40:12 PM  
Could someone who is good at maths explain this, perhaps with an example?

I am not good at maths.
 
2012-07-19 11:33:48 PM  

NotARocketScientist: Yeah, just like basketball players do calculus every time they shoot the ball.
Yeah and when monkeys fling shiat they calculate the trajectory with a slide rule. Amazing little bastards.

X=X0 + V0xt + 0.5 at2 is calculus?
I know what you are trying to say here guys, but you are making yourselves look moronic by picking a really bad example.


You're not looking that bright yourself if you're suggesting that an equation for straight-line motion is all that's needed to calculate the trajectory of a basketball or monkey shiat through the air. Where does your equation allow for wind resistance, the weight of the projectile, the elevation or any of the other factors a basketballer/monkey would vary in order to make a shot?
 
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