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(WFTV Orlando)   Teachers union members outraged, OUTRAGED when told that they must pass tests on subjects they are "teaching" to children   (wftv.com) divider line 272
    More: Florida, FCAT, professional certification, Florida Department of Education, pay per clicks, Titusville, standards, teachers  
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12375 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jul 2012 at 4:54 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-18 10:54:41 AM

Desmo: It's about f*ckin time!

What the teachers need to realize is that they need something to warrant higher pay. Quit biatching and prove yourselves worthy.

I have to demonstrate value in my job every day. How 'bout you?


Is your job trying to make a teenager tied 20 hours of the day to a iPhone/Facebook understand why English or Algebra is important in their life? If not, then shut the fark up and stop pretending that this is a normal job like construction worker or factory labor. In your job, proving yourself probably means doing something requiring only your abilities to get the job done with most likely inanimate objects that don't talk back, throw things, or try and make it as hard as possible for you to complete a task.

Teachers have to prove themselves by trying to make a human being learn something new. Every day. And then do that with 24 other kids at the same time. Kids that excel at learning, kids that don't, and kids that don't want to. And they have to make all of them achieve the same level in order to "prove themselves". It's not the same thing, not even in the slightest.
 
2012-07-18 10:55:57 AM

Desmo: It's about f*ckin time!

What the teachers need to realize is that they need something to warrant higher pay. Quit biatching and prove yourselves worthy.

I have to demonstrate value in my job every day. How 'bout you?


Does the evaluation of your job performance depend on arbitrary factors like the learning ability of those working under you? Do your underlings have behavioral issues? Learning disabilities? Do you have 50 rabid bosses (parents) breathing down your neck?

You know NOTHING about demonstrating value in teaching. And attitudes like yours are part of the problem with public schools today.
 
2012-07-18 10:59:18 AM

larrycot: Late to the party, but I'll add my CSB.

I am retired military and currently teach 8th grade science. There's absolutely no way I could teach without my monthly retirement check. In fact, I still earn more from Uncle Sam than I do from the teaching gig.

I teach because I'm a total science nerd and always have been. I essentially channel my own 8th grade science teacher (RIP Mr. Nelson) who was 50% Bill Nye and 50% Gallagher. A few years ago, I almost quit as I became disillusioned with the emphasis on the standardized tests. In my state, the test is given a month and a half before the end of the school year, so I literally had to cram 10 months of material into 8 months, and then spend two weeks reviewing it all again before the test. The kids hated it. I hated it.

Finally, a couple years ago, I said screw it and taught science the way I wanted to, often going outside my standard to teach things the kids (and I) were interested in. I quit giving the school-mandated practice tests, and instead introduced a lesson on the science behind test creation and test taking. I really expected the scores to tank that year, but they actually went up, and have gone up each year as I become more of a rebel. When I get evaluated, I make sure I'm wearing a tie and conduct a lesson the way I'm expected to. My co-conspirators (the students) help me perform what a lesson is supposed to look like in the eyes of my state and district. When the boss leaves, it's back to doing it what my kids call "the fun way."

I think Mr. Nelson would approve.


I get the feeling your class is farking awesome. You are full of win.
 
2012-07-18 10:59:36 AM

LadyBelgara: Does the evaluation of your job performance depend on arbitrary factors like the learning ability of those working under you?


Oh, so now we are blaming the victim?

/i know
//welcome to fark
 
2012-07-18 11:00:44 AM

Cubicle Jockey: Best and worst paid teachers in the US

There are some amusing discrepancies.

HIGHEST

#3: California
Average Salary 2010/11: $69,434
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 21 (49th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 270.44 (46th) / 252.63 (49th)

#2: Massachusetts
Average Salary 2010/11: $71,017
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.58 (15th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 298.85 (1st) / 273.58 (1st) WOOHOO! GO MASSHOLES!

#1: New York
Average Salary 2010/11: $72,708
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.8 (4th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 282.57 (31st) / 264.28 (31st)


LOWEST

#3: Missouri
Average Salary 2010/11: $46,411
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.2 (11th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 285.8 (22nd) / 266.87 (17th)

#2: North Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $44,266
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.9 (6th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 292.84 (4th) / 269.24 (10th)

#1: South Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $35,201
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.4 (14th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 290.61 (8th) / 270.06 (8th)


It looks like parents in Massachusetts and the Dakotas are seeing high ROI. Cali and NY? Not so much.


Here is another article on comparing teacher stats across the OECD.

NYTimes

TL;DR, American teachers put in more hours then any other country, are paid "ok" on an absolute scale, but are underpaid compared to their country's wealth status


The salaries should be scaled somehow based on cost of living. Making $71k probably doesn't get as far as one might think if you work in and have to find housing near Newton one of the W towns.
 
2012-07-18 11:04:10 AM

Cubicle Jockey: Best and worst paid teachers in the US

There are some amusing discrepancies.

HIGHEST

#3: California
Average Salary 2010/11: $69,434
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 21 (49th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 270.44 (46th) / 252.63 (49th)

#2: Massachusetts
Average Salary 2010/11: $71,017
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.58 (15th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 298.85 (1st) / 273.58 (1st) WOOHOO! GO MASSHOLES!

#1: New York
Average Salary 2010/11: $72,708
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.8 (4th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 282.57 (31st) / 264.28 (31st)


LOWEST

#3: Missouri
Average Salary 2010/11: $46,411
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.2 (11th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 285.8 (22nd) / 266.87 (17th)

#2: North Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $44,266
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.9 (6th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 292.84 (4th) / 269.24 (10th)

#1: South Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $35,201
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.4 (14th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 290.61 (8th) / 270.06 (8th)


It looks like parents in Massachusetts and the Dakotas are seeing high ROI. Cali and NY? Not so much.


Here is another article on comparing teacher stats across the OECD.

NYTimes

TL;DR, American teachers put in more hours then any other country, are paid "ok" on an absolute scale, but are underpaid compared to their country's wealth status


Don't forget, teachers in the US only work 1500 hours a year--vs 2000 most other occupations. Comparing their salaries on a per year basis is incorrect. Before anybody gets their panties in a bunch, yes, I take work home as well. Fact is, if you include pensions, teachers are well paid. They have great job protection (tenure vs non-tenure in the dreaded private sector).

Also, teachers usually have the lowest standardized test scores entering college. So, it doesn't really take that much to be a teacher. Link Don't ask be to decode, I am old school SAT. I just look at the below average.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-18 11:04:16 AM

MugzyBrown: vpb: The figures are grossly inflated. It's easy to manipulate statistics when you don't show your data. I think what they do is divide total employment costs (which includes things like bus drivers and janitors) by the number of teachers.

It's teacher salary & teacher benefits divided by number of teachers.


No, I don't think so. California has the highest average salary in the country, and it's only $59,825. So what as that figure ~$108,000, with benefits? Doesn't seem very plausible, unless you are playing a bit loose with the definition of "benefits".

Of course if you don't cite any data, who knows where the numbers came from. Often people just pull them out of their ass, For example:Link
 
2012-07-18 11:04:24 AM
So the pool of all people wanting to become a teacher is larger than the pool of qualified people wanting to become a teacher? That *is* surprising.
 
2012-07-18 11:08:48 AM
Gyrfalcon

NCLB was a horrible idea from the git-go. It was predicated on the idea, without any research, that schools were bad, teachers were worse, and America needed to catch up with Korea in math and science by God!!
Bulls--t.

But lo and behold, the schools were not bad, and if teachers were
So none are bad, but IF they're bad.... enjoy contradicting yourself?

, it was because of stupid experiments like here in California: You mandate a 20:1 ratio for classrooms and no time to graduate enough teachers for the job (because it had to happen NOW!!!!), and issue "emergency credentials" to fill up your classrooms...then guess what, you get a few good people and a whole shiatload of douchebags
Lets see, who pushed for that ratio... Ohhhhh yeah, teachers unions and idiotic liberal (redundant) soccer-moms. Another stellar liberal program you now admit is a failure.

who want a cushy job but have no business being within 5 miles of a classroom.

Cushy job.... So you disagree with those employed as teachers that say it's a tough job. You and I have common ground. It's a job w/ 3 months off and less hours than most public sector professions (protip: mcwork isn't a "profession" so don't even try to claim some H.S. looser working an 8hr mc-shift is an equivalent)



Then you put the teachers' unions in the awful position of having to defend these morons,
The same Teachers unions that forced them to be hired and forced the hiriing standards down. Sorry, but they don't get off the hook when they're the root cause if the issue you're now trying to dismiss.

because as union members they're entitled to the same due process, regardless of how rotten they are.
Including the ones farking underage students? Sorry sunshine, but if your union is pushing back on any regulation to weed that out of your membership you're just as guilty as Jerry Sandusky and his buddies that helped him for so many decades.


I have good friends in CTA, and they are NOT happy they have to afford crappy teachers the same protections as the good ones, but otherwise the legislature will throw out the baby with the bathwater. But you all wanted this, you wanted lots of teachers
No, that's another lie. As stated above, t.u.'s are what pushed the hiring standards down and the hiring of inept fools.

you wanted smaller classes
No, no matter how often you repeat that lie, it's still a lie. T.u.'s pushed that.

and standardized tests to ensure kids all got taught math and science
Wanted children taught Math and Science?? In school? you're right! That's a completely irrational expectation to put on the shoulders of *ehem* "teachers*


; and decided that hey! let's make the schools "accountable" by tying their Federal funding to their test scores.
Yes another irrational plan. How insane it is to stop throwing money at inept organizations. That's why you still shop at Blockbuster, Circuit City and Best Buy, right?


the first thing gutted every election is education (right behind mental health).
Ehem.... I haven't seen recent numbers, but as of 4 years ago per student spending was Up, not down.


///glad you're pissed.
 
2012-07-18 11:09:19 AM

dickfreckle: AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.

I see I'm not needed here.

Look, schlubby, you don't have to tear your labium reaching for any chance you get to stick it to ZOMG TEACHER'S UNION. Just wait a few days and something substantial just might come along.

But by all means, continue being angered by the union. It's not the ultra-rich who unduly influence your government..it's those communists making 60k who are really keeping you from the American Dream. Hey! Look over there! Someone has benefits I don't!

Granted, perhaps I'm giving them too much credit. They schooled someone as easily duped as you.

/farking swear, I can hear your vagina flapping from all the way over here


Nice false dichotomy you've got there.

A public sector union with the ability to strike creates an unelected branch of government with the ability to indirectly levy taxes. The teacher's union wants a 10% raise and free healthcare? Guess what's happening.

In Pennsylvania, you can't fire them for striking. You're stuck with whatever the union decides. The best you can hope for is that the unions didn't write minimum staffing requirements into their contracts and you can lay some of them off (and always by seniority, so the 60 year old biatch math teacher making $75k/yr is untouchable), or maybe you can close a school.
 
2012-07-18 11:10:33 AM

tartie_pants: They were not however too busy to come into your class and nitpick about BS like seating arrangements,count the number of words on your word wall and configuration boards. (I taught K yes having a poster that had the standard and a bunch of other bs was totally the key to my kids getting the lesson)


It is tought for me to reconcile anger over BS like this and being against standardized tests.
 
2012-07-18 11:13:19 AM
AirForceVet: Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents).
FAIL.

That has never been the case. Post WWII the U.S. built an education system the rest of the world flocked to and teachers were never paid what you claim they must be.

Care to give it another go?
 
2012-07-18 11:13:19 AM

marcand: However, I decided to be a teacher because:

1. My friends and family respected teachers
2. Good benefits
3. Tenure system to protect the job


ALL OF MY ENVY!!!

>:O
 
2012-07-18 11:13:38 AM
dittybopper



That's as may be, but teachers should have a competence level in what they teach. A teacher who teaches science should be, well, a science geek. It's telling that with one exception that stands out simply because she was so competent, as a student I generally looked down upon my science teachers. Often, they were outside of their core competency level, and were basically teaching to the textbook. I had one who was a nice guy, but who would have been more effective as a gym teacher, as sports were obviously his core competency and interest. How effective was he as a science teacher? Not very. He taught the syllabus, but when questions arose about something, he would struggle for an answer, often having to look it up (pre-Internet!), or occasionally brushing it off.

I don't have a problem with requiring teachers to know the subject matter they are teaching. Certainly, one would *HOPE* that they have at least a basic mastery of that which they are trying to explain to young, impressionable minds.


No disagreement here on teachers being good, but what the hell was all of that college for?

Let's suppose a testing company wants to make some cash. Hell, even suppose I made a test for your job (whatever job lets you post on Fark during the day) that will test the minuscule data that you never use in order to get your cash. If I was the testing company, I would make it so you would have to take is as many times as possible. Just missed it by a few points! Try again. Gimme cash. Forget your experience dealing with people and kids, it's all about the facts and making that one test count. Forget the college you went to and what you did. It's the test that matters. A veteran teacher will sail through these tests at the cost of their time and money. Much better than prepping for your child's class, right?

You also ignored my 3 points illustrating that we are turning people away from this profession. Why the hell would anyone choose a profession so dissed by the current culture?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-18 11:15:16 AM

larrycot: Late to the party, but I'll add my CSB.

I am retired military and currently teach 8th grade science. There's absolutely no way I could teach without my monthly retirement check. In fact, I still earn more from Uncle Sam than I do from the teaching gig.

I teach because I'm a total science nerd and always have been. I essentially channel my own 8th grade science teacher (RIP Mr. Nelson) who was 50% Bill Nye and 50% Gallagher. A few years ago, I almost quit as I became disillusioned with the emphasis on the standardized tests. In my state, the test is given a month and a half before the end of the school year, so I literally had to cram 10 months of material into 8 months, and then spend two weeks reviewing it all again before the test. The kids hated it. I hated it.

Finally, a couple years ago, I said screw it and taught science the way I wanted to, often going outside my standard to teach things the kids (and I) were interested in. I quit giving the school-mandated practice tests, and instead introduced a lesson on the science behind test creation and test taking. I really expected the scores to tank that year, but they actually went up, and have gone up each year as I become more of a rebel. When I get evaluated, I make sure I'm wearing a tie and conduct a lesson the way I'm expected to. My co-conspirators (the students) help me perform what a lesson is supposed to look like in the eyes of my state and district. When the boss leaves, it's back to doing it what my kids call "the fun way."

I think Mr. Nelson would approve.


In my experience the best teachers aren't the ones with the most training or the ones who know the most, it's more of a talent.

When I was in high school took a biology class taught by a PE coach. He didn't know anything about biology, but every evening he learned the next days lesson and taught it pretty well. Definitely a better than average teacher. He didn't know anything that wasn't in the book, but he taught the material he had very well.
 
2012-07-18 11:21:00 AM

Cubicle Jockey: Best and worst paid teachers in the US

There are some amusing discrepancies.

HIGHEST

#3: California
Average Salary 2010/11: $69,434
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 21 (49th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 270.44 (46th) / 252.63 (49th)

#2: Massachusetts
Average Salary 2010/11: $71,017
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.58 (15th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 298.85 (1st) / 273.58 (1st) WOOHOO! GO MASSHOLES!

#1: New York
Average Salary 2010/11: $72,708
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.8 (4th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 282.57 (31st) / 264.28 (31st)


LOWEST

#3: Missouri
Average Salary 2010/11: $46,411
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.2 (11th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 285.8 (22nd) / 266.87 (17th)

#2: North Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $44,266
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.9 (6th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 292.84 (4th) / 269.24 (10th)

#1: South Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $35,201
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.4 (14th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 290.61 (8th) / 270.06 (8th)


It looks like parents in Massachusetts and the Dakotas are seeing high ROI. Cali and NY? Not so much.


Here is another article on comparing teacher stats across the OECD.

NYTimes

TL;DR, American teachers put in more hours then any other country, are paid "ok" on an absolute scale, but are underpaid compared to their country's wealth status


If you don't stop being reasonable, out fark independents will have nothing to wharrrgarbllll about.
 
2012-07-18 11:22:10 AM
I support the higher teacher standards even if it reduces the number of teachers and requires increases class size. Being "taught" a subject by someone who doesn't understand the subject is plan for failure.

When I was in high school the baseball coach was assigned to teach algebra. He was the single worst teacher that I every had. It was clear that he didn't understand the subject matter, and whenever a student asked a question he would refer to the sample question in the book. He was unable to show a student how to solve any other problems. Absolutely worthless, but he was considered a great teacher by the administration because he was able to make the baseball team contenders for the state championships nearly every year.

Many students, including myself, ended up dropping his class. I retook the course with another teacher the following year and got A's. I then took other math courses with the second teacher and continued to get high marks. The second teacher was everything a teacher should be. He had a outstanding understanding of the subject.

Making sure that teachers understand the subjects they are assigned to teach is very important. A teacher cannot pass on knowledge unless they have it in the first place.
 
2012-07-18 11:26:34 AM

liam76: tartie_pants: They were not however too busy to come into your class and nitpick about BS like seating arrangements,count the number of words on your word wall and configuration boards. (I taught K yes having a poster that had the standard and a bunch of other bs was totally the key to my kids getting the lesson)

It is tought for me to reconcile anger over BS like this and being against standardized tests.


I'm not angry with the testing issues, like I said my initial cert was in MA which has much higher standards. As a matter of fact I took the FL test for teaching exceptional student education and was appalled at how little you had to actually know about the subject to pass. Again in MA you can get a temporary certification to teach ESE based on testing but you then have a certain amount of time to take course work to keep that certification.

Sorry for any confusion, I was up late working on designing centers for my class and hadn't had coffee yet.
I was saying that testing had no role in my choice to ditch public schools it was all the other things. I am taking close to 8k less and frankly couldn't be happier.
 
2012-07-18 11:30:21 AM
But who tests the testers?
 
2012-07-18 11:32:08 AM

Vangor: JustGetItRight: Oh, and I don't think it absurd that someone teaching a subject should have to demonstrate proficiency in that subject.

Not sure why I should bother asking if you read the article seeing as this is Fark and your comment reads the headline alone without getting a couple sentences into the article nor having a modicum of knowledge about FTCEs which have been in place since NCLB, but did you read the article? Teachers have to demonstrate proficiency in the subject as is; the scores for passing would be increased for no education appropriate reason.


When your knee jerked that hard did your foot actually swing all the way around and hit you in the back of the head or merely stop somewhere close to vertical?

It may come as a surprise, but my attention span lasts long enough to read a story that consists of fewer than 15 sentences. The article merely states that there is an existing certification test but gives no indication of what constitutes as as passing. The current test may be sufficient or it may be too easy. That determination cannot be made based on the story. The only things we know from the story are that the bar might be raised, the father of a future taker is unconcerned, and the head of the teacher's union for one county says it will be the end of the world (real shocker there).

What I find really comical is that my comment made no specific endorsement about the proposed change. I merely added a notation to my post about perceived salary differences that I find the general idea of testing teacher proficiency to be a good one and yet you replied as if I were the guy that drafted the proposal.
 
2012-07-18 11:36:52 AM

Cubicle Jockey: Best and worst paid teachers in the US

There are some amusing discrepancies.

HIGHEST

#3: California
Average Salary 2010/11: $69,434
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 21 (49th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 270.44 (46th) / 252.63 (49th)

#2: Massachusetts
Average Salary 2010/11: $71,017
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.58 (15th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 298.85 (1st) / 273.58 (1st) WOOHOO! GO MASSHOLES!

#1: New York
Average Salary 2010/11: $72,708
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.8 (4th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 282.57 (31st) / 264.28 (31st)


LOWEST

#3: Missouri
Average Salary 2010/11: $46,411
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.2 (11th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 285.8 (22nd) / 266.87 (17th)

#2: North Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $44,266
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.9 (6th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 292.84 (4th) / 269.24 (10th)

#1: South Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $35,201
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.4 (14th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 290.61 (8th) / 270.06 (8th)


It looks like parents in Massachusetts and the Dakotas are seeing high ROI. Cali and NY? Not so much.


Here is another article on comparing teacher stats across the OECD.

NYTimes

TL;DR, American teachers put in more hours then any other country, are paid "ok" on an absolute scale, but are underpaid compared to their country's wealth status


It's almost like there's something about CA and NY that would make teaching their students more difficult, like say, a much higher number of students who don't speak English as a first language.
 
2012-07-18 11:37:19 AM

Job Creator: See, a commie/fascist lib like myself might note that states like New York and California have incredibly diverse populations, 100's of languages, socio-economic disparities, and cost of living differences from Missouri and North Dakota.



As a fellow commie/fascist lib, I can agree somewhat.

But while CA and NY come in #1 and #2 on the "percentage of foreign born in 2010" list, MA is at #8 in that metric, and still beats every other state for test scores.


Honestly, I am mostly here just to brag how great schools in MA are.
 
2012-07-18 11:37:37 AM
I sorta support this because it's not always the teachers to blame but their idiots bosses that put them in that position because often it's not their choice.

In high-school I remember me and some of my fellow geeks ended up practically teaching calculus because the powers-that-be ended up shifting teachers (I don't recall why, and I probably never did know the reason anyway), our the new math teacher had been teaching social studies for the last 10 years and her "math" background was teaching math in elementary school.

So while I'm for the idea that the teachers need to be competent in their subjects they teach I think most of the blame falls on the school administration for poor teacher placement.
 
2012-07-18 11:39:54 AM

dennysgod: I sorta support this because it's not always the teachers to blame but their idiots bosses that put them in that position because often it's not their choice.

In high-school I remember me and some of my fellow geeks ended up practically teaching calculus because the powers-that-be ended up shifting teachers (I don't recall why, and I probably never did know the reason anyway), our the new math teacher had been teaching social studies for the last 10 years and her "math" background was teaching math in elementary school.

So while I'm for the idea that the teachers need to be competent in their subjects they teach I think most of the blame falls on the school administration for poor teacher placement.


my guess why the social studies teacher was teaching math, union rules regarding seniority. The administration probably had no practical choice.
 
2012-07-18 11:40:07 AM
The important thing is that the teachers shouldn't earn as much as prison guards.
 
2012-07-18 11:42:01 AM

JeffreyScott: I support the higher teacher standards even if it reduces the number of teachers and requires increases class size.


Good. You go teach the monster classes.

If I have to pay out of pocket to get some bullshiat cert that only increases my work load anyway, I'll just go work at a bar. I don't care what happens to your kids if you don't care enough to pay for their proper education.

Either pay goes up for teachers with this cert, including a full refund for testing fees, travel time, and gas or you find any teacher worth a damn moving to a state that actually cares about education as opposed to lining Scantron's pockets.
 
2012-07-18 11:44:50 AM
Same should apply to sports then. If you can't throw, catch or run as fast as the athlete you're coaching, then you obviously don't have the skills required for the job.
 
2012-07-18 11:52:16 AM

dennysgod: I sorta support this because it's not always the teachers to blame but their idiots bosses that put them in that position because often it's not their choice.

In high-school I remember me and some of my fellow geeks ended up practically teaching calculus because the powers-that-be ended up shifting teachers (I don't recall why, and I probably never did know the reason anyway), our the new math teacher had been teaching social studies for the last 10 years and her "math" background was teaching math in elementary school.

So while I'm for the idea that the teachers need to be competent in their subjects they teach I think most of the blame falls on the school administration for poor teacher placement.


Cubicle Jockey: Job Creator: See, a commie/fascist lib like myself might note that states like New York and California have incredibly diverse populations, 100's of languages, socio-economic disparities, and cost of living differences from Missouri and North Dakota.


As a fellow commie/fascist lib, I can agree somewhat.

But while CA and NY come in #1 and #2 on the "percentage of foreign born in 2010" list, MA is at #8 in that metric, and still beats every other state for test scores.


Honestly, I am mostly here just to brag how great schools in MA are.


I was educated in them myself. MA goes to show that if the population cares about education and pay their teachers fairly, they can have positive outcomes. Who knew, right?

/Red Sox still suck though
//and the Patriots too
 
2012-07-18 12:00:23 PM

AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.


And we're done here.
 
2012-07-18 12:22:03 PM
I love it when people describe us teachers as "overpaid babysitters," especially when they're trying to insult us. It reminds me of a jokey kind of flyer I saw a few years ago which pointed out that hour-for-hour, babysitters are MUCH better paid than teachers are.

Consider: What's the going rate, $5.00 per hour per kid? So, let's see, I teach 200 kids 50 minutes a day (and let's not even get in to after-school and lunchtime activities).....at $5.00 per hour.....well, as Steve Martin said, you figure it out. I'm not making anywhere NEAR that kind of money!

/I know, I know, it's just a little levity. Unclench.
 
2012-07-18 12:23:27 PM

supayoda: AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.

And we're done here.


So, who taught all the scientists, technicians, and engineers? Are you suggesting that they were taught by scientists, technicians, and engineers that took pay cuts?
 
2012-07-18 12:31:55 PM
My state went the other way. We have the lowest teacher pay in the nation already, and 2 years ago the legislature decided that the best way to balance the budget was to cut 10% out of our already pathetically funded educational system. They were warned that we would be facing teacher shortages because teachers can go just across the border in any direction and make an additional $10k/year or more. Their solution? Lower the standards so far that all the people who score so poorly that they can't teach in any of the surrounding states can come here and teach. Problem solved! No more teacher shortage! They've got at least a 4-year degree to pay off, and many of them figure working here for slave wages and getting some experience is better than letting their degree go to waste. The legislature gets to pat itself on the back for supplying teachers, the districts get to continue to be able to hire people for $25k, and everybody wins! Well, except for the students who are being taught by the functionally retarded, but that's not really important. The main goal of education should be to do it as cheaply as possible. After all, we have prisons to fund and the governor's cousin needs a six-figure salary to occupy a desk in the capitol. We can't be wasting money trying to educate the youth. They'll figure it out on their own.
 
2012-07-18 12:45:57 PM

mod3072: My state went the other way. We have the lowest teacher pay in the nation already, and 2 years ago the legislature decided that the best way to balance the budget was to cut 10% out of our already pathetically funded educational system. They were warned that we would be facing teacher shortages because teachers can go just across the border in any direction and make an additional $10k/year or more. Their solution? Lower the standards so far that all the people who score so poorly that they can't teach in any of the surrounding states can come here and teach. Problem solved! No more teacher shortage! They've got at least a 4-year degree to pay off, and many of them figure working here for slave wages and getting some experience is better than letting their degree go to waste. The legislature gets to pat itself on the back for supplying teachers, the districts get to continue to be able to hire people for $25k, and everybody wins! Well, except for the students who are being taught by the functionally retarded, but that's not really important. The main goal of education should be to do it as cheaply as possible. After all, we have prisons to fund and the governor's cousin needs a six-figure salary to occupy a desk in the capitol. We can't be wasting money trying to educate the youth. They'll figure it out on their own.


Great post. My state DOE is busy jostling for sucking position on the Federal tit (known in polite circles as "Race to the Top" money), while simultaneously doing all they can to ensure that no one would want to teach in this godforsaken state, which I call the appendix of the USA, which if you visualize what an appendix does, anatomically speaking, I don't need to tell you which state I'm in.
 
2012-07-18 01:21:30 PM

larrycot: Late to the party, but I'll add my CSB.

I am retired military and currently teach 8th grade science. There's absolutely no way I could teach without my monthly retirement check. In fact, I still earn more from Uncle Sam than I do from the teaching gig.

I teach because I'm a total science nerd and always have been. I essentially channel my own 8th grade science teacher (RIP Mr. Nelson) who was 50% Bill Nye and 50% Gallagher. A few years ago, I almost quit as I became disillusioned with the emphasis on the standardized tests. In my state, the test is given a month and a half before the end of the school year, so I literally had to cram 10 months of material into 8 months, and then spend two weeks reviewing it all again before the test. The kids hated it. I hated it.

Finally, a couple years ago, I said screw it and taught science the way I wanted to, often going outside my standard to teach things the kids (and I) were interested in. I quit giving the school-mandated practice tests, and instead introduced a lesson on the science behind test creation and test taking. I really expected the scores to tank that year, but they actually went up, and have gone up each year as I become more of a rebel. When I get evaluated, I make sure I'm wearing a tie and conduct a lesson the way I'm expected to. My co-conspirators (the students) help me perform what a lesson is supposed to look like in the eyes of my state and district. When the boss leaves, it's back to doing it what my kids call "the fun way."

I think Mr. Nelson would approve.


That's awesome. I had a few teachers that made life-long impressions on me. I'd be willing to wager that your students say something similar about you.
 
2012-07-18 01:34:24 PM

OnlyM3: Fark Me To Tears [TotalFark]
2012-07-17 11:53:19 PM

FTFA: Critics say higher standards could create teacher shortages

In Florida? I have no doubt about that. Teachers down here get no respect whatsoever from the state government, let alone their individual school districts. The positions really don't pay very well, compared to teaching positions outside the state. And now, on top of all that, we're going to crank up the standards?

Yeah. Good luck with that.

If your kids are grown and you're thinking about moving to Florida, then come on down and take a look. If you've got kids who need to go to public school... well... you'd probably be better going somewhere else.

Yeah, somewhere where teachers are respected (feared) by the legislature. Somewhere like California where teachers are fighting to keep pedo's in their ranks.


To be fair, those are all Catholic schools.

/ba dum bum bssh!
 
2012-07-18 01:57:52 PM
I don't care what the issue is: I blame teachers. I sure as hell don't blame conservatives insisting that we cut taxes AND cut spending, therefore harming education and children all over the country and guaranteeing the US will not be able to compete with the rest of the world. Well, that's not exactly true. I'm sure we'll be able to compete with Zimbabwe and Haiti for a little while.
 
2012-07-18 02:07:02 PM

Ricardo Klement: Virginia just passed a law saying you had to have a degree in the field you're teaching. This has had the effect of opening up a shiatload of history and social studies degrees because sports coaches used to grab those classes.


In California we've always had a test. It doesn't help. Our problems with education doesnt fall heavily on the teachers, or extremely so. It is culture. Many of the kids here are tested in English and don't speak it very well. Many of the student's parents are immigrants from cultures that aren't educationally aligned with the US. Some frankly don't reali care how the kids do.

And that's not even addressing kids with developmental issues, psychological issues, and those that just need help.
 
2012-07-18 02:28:13 PM
and this is why teaching is a job, not a profession.
 
2012-07-18 02:44:53 PM

doglover: JeffreyScott: I support the higher teacher standards even if it reduces the number of teachers and requires increases class size.

Good. You go teach the monster classes.

If I have to pay out of pocket to get some bullshiat cert that only increases my work load anyway, I'll just go work at a bar. I don't care what happens to your kids if you don't care enough to pay for their proper education.

Either pay goes up for teachers with this cert, including a full refund for testing fees, travel time, and gas or you find any teacher worth a damn moving to a state that actually cares about education as opposed to lining Scantron's pockets.


decreasing labor supply in a labor market with inelastic demand will necessarily increase labor costs (salary), you dolt.

that's the whole farking point of the big time labor guilds (the AMA, medical boards, bar associations, etc) that do their best to keep the barriers to entry high and thus wages high, and have managed to keep their lines of work among the professional classes, and while the former profession that is teaching is now just a regular job because of your labor associations push to shelter teachers from more stringent requirements over the past 5 decades.

if you can't understand these simple concepts, maybe you shouldn't be teaching anyone's kids anyway.
 
2012-07-18 02:53:41 PM
pay for bar fees, study materials, and transportation costs or you'll have less qualified lawyers.
see how dumb that sounds?
the fact that it is a massive pain in the ass to become a lawyer is what used to keep numbers down and salary up.
if you want more money as a teacher long term instead of trying to dumb down the job requirements so any f*ck with a liberal arts degree can do it and protect incompetent teachers you instead increase the hurdles, doglover, you dumb f*ck with a liberal arts degree.
 
2012-07-18 02:56:39 PM

dittybopper: beefoe: Is this some new kind of story writing where you bold a bunch of the words, but not necessarily the important ones?

It's the newest thing. When composing a post, you keep a die around, and roll for each word. If it's a 1 or a 2, you bold that word.


The funny part is that I can actually imagine you really rolling a d6 around while constructing your post. Ah well... I'm amused by simple things for I am of a simple mind.
 
2012-07-18 03:27:40 PM
Two words.
Animal.
Husbandry.
 
2012-07-18 04:24:45 PM

MugzyBrown: Knowing the historical ins and outs of not just English and American lit but the language, and various cultural matters, is every bit as specialized as physics.

That's great for maybe the 11th grade advanced english lit class, but for the 6th grade english class, you don't need a PhD to teach prepositions.

And teachers in my township get average annual compensation of $118,288. They're doing ok.


Oh, look. Someone who doesn't understand how averages work, or education for that matter.

/ignorance is bliss, I guess.
//I'd rather be informed.
 
2012-07-18 04:44:14 PM

Ricardo Klement: Virginia just passed a law saying you had to have a degree in the field you're teaching. This has had the effect of opening up a shiatload of history and social studies degrees because sports coaches used to grab those classes.


Good. Americans know about little in the way of history or civics to begin with. The redneck football coach teaching the classes probably wasn't helping.
 
2012-07-18 04:48:42 PM

ScotterOtter: Same should apply to sports then. If you can't throw, catch or run as fast as the athlete you're coaching, then you obviously don't have the skills required for the job.


NOW HOLD ON THERE, CHIEF! We can't fark with sports! That's a "money maker"!
 
2012-07-18 06:03:22 PM

TimonC346: Ricardo Klement: Virginia just passed a law saying you had to have a degree in the field you're teaching. This has had the effect of opening up a shiatload of history and social studies degrees because sports coaches used to grab those classes.

In California we've always had a test. It doesn't help. Our problems with education doesnt fall heavily on the teachers, or extremely so. It is culture. Many of the kids here are tested in English and don't speak it very well. Many of the student's parents are immigrants from cultures that aren't educationally aligned with the US. Some frankly don't reali care how the kids do.

And that's not even addressing kids with developmental issues, psychological issues, and those that just need help.


i915.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-18 06:05:28 PM

WhyteRaven74: tudorgurl: Can you provide more information on this, please? I was under the impression that tracking was big in Europe.

The Finnish and Czech school systems have no tracking of any kind. They also have no such thing as honors classes. Everyone, save for students with developmental issues, goes through all together all the way through when they finish school at 17/18. And Finnish schools would freak out Americans. They emphasize things like student comfort, if a student wants to take their shoes off and spend the day in their socks? No problem, the floors are spotless. All students are provided with top flight meals at school, field trips etc etc. The Czechs aren't much different. I know a bit more about the Czech system as my two aunts are teachers there. One thing that becomes apparent is that unlike in the US there's no talking about things being hard, or how only certain students can get certain material and so on. Also the Czechs, like the Finns, aren't very big on tests, of any kind. There's no such thing as standardized tests and regular tests are few and far between. In Finland federal law limits how many exams students can get in each subject in a year. While the Czechs don't have such a law, I know neither of my aunts has many tests for their respective subjects, I know it's not more than six, but might only be four. And homework? Well my aunts teach the equivalent of high school students so there's some, but compared to what some American students get, it's not much. And both my aunts would consider anyone suggesting homework for first through fourth graders as being severely disturbed. As for qualifications, my aunt who teaches math has an MS in math and my aunt who teaches chemistry has an MS in chemistry.


Sounds interesting. It would be cool if a school district, or a state perhaps could try that model of education. Maybe another state could try a direction based education which directs students to their propensities like trades, arts or civil service.

All options should be on the table but we're told time and time again that if we deviate from the 100+ year old agrarian education model that the NEA has pushed forth that we hate teachers, hate students and want people to be illiterate. I'm not saying I, nor anyone else has the answers but we have a pretty clear idea of what isn't working that well and the only option is to try something different.
 
2012-07-18 06:08:52 PM

WhyteRaven74: tudorgurl: Can you provide more information on this, please? I was under the impression that tracking was big in Europe.

The Finnish and Czech school systems have no tracking of any kind. They also have no such thing as honors classes. Everyone, save for students with developmental issues, goes through all together all the way through when they finish school at 17/18. And Finnish schools would freak out Americans. They emphasize things like student comfort, if a student wants to take their shoes off and spend the day in their socks? No problem, the floors are spotless. All students are provided with top flight meals at school, field trips etc etc. The Czechs aren't much different. I know a bit more about the Czech system as my two aunts are teachers there. One thing that becomes apparent is that unlike in the US there's no talking about things being hard, or how only certain students can get certain material and so on. Also the Czechs, like the Finns, aren't very big on tests, of any kind. There's no such thing as standardized tests and regular tests are few and far between. In Finland federal law limits how many exams students can get in each subject in a year. While the Czechs don't have such a law, I know neither of my aunts has many tests for their respective subjects, I know it's not more than six, but might only be four. And homework? Well my aunts teach the equivalent of high school students so there's some, but compared to what some American students get, it's not much. And both my aunts would consider anyone suggesting homework for first through fourth graders as being severely disturbed. As for qualifications, my aunt who teaches math has an MS in math and my aunt who teaches chemistry has an MS in chemistry.


It's unfortunate there are no international standardized tests that would allow a direct comparison between the outcomes of the two systems. I.e., do students from Country X fare better in (say) algebra than students from Country Y?
 
2012-07-18 06:16:29 PM
If teachers ever want to be recognized as true professionals, they should stop hiding behind a union.
 
2012-07-18 06:17:48 PM

o5iiawah: Sounds interesting. It would be cool if a school district, or a state perhaps could try that model of education. Maybe another state could try a direction based education which directs students to their propensities like trades, arts or civil service.

All options should be on the table but we're told time and time again that if we deviate from the 100+ year old agrarian education model that the NEA has pushed forth that we hate teachers, hate students and want people to be illiterate. I'm not saying I, nor anyone else has the answers but we have a pretty clear idea of what isn't working that well and the only option is to try something different.



Meh, I'd be wary of making blanket statements that the US system is broken. Some districts may be broken, but that's probably a complex interaction between the district and the parents who raise the kids and vote for the school board members.

I went to public school (in Rochester, Minnesota, high school class of 1999), then college, and ended up with a PhD in chemical engineering. Many of my classmates did equally well -- I ran into another one of my old high school friends at an AIChE meeting who was then a postdoc at Berkeley. ...and this was from a pretty average American school district.
 
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