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(WFTV Orlando)   Teachers union members outraged, OUTRAGED when told that they must pass tests on subjects they are "teaching" to children   (wftv.com) divider line 272
    More: Florida, FCAT, professional certification, Florida Department of Education, pay per clicks, Titusville, standards, teachers  
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12377 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jul 2012 at 4:54 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-18 09:29:30 AM

tudorgurl: o5iiawah: untaken_name: We already pay more than any other country per child. How do those other countries manage to have decent teachers while spending less money than we spend?

They direct students who show a propensity towards excellence in certain subjects or fields towards teachers who specialize in teaching such things.

You might otherwise call it "choice" or as the FarkLibs call it, "Somalia"

Actually, I'm all for tracking students to their strengths. Not all of my students will be college material. Not all of my students would do well in an automotive career. But there needs to be some balance there, This whole "college-ready" craze that's forcing even special ed kids to be "college ready" (whatever that means...) is hurting students more than it's helping them. I wish we could have an education system more like Europe's where students can take specialized courses to get them a career or a certification rather than forcing kids to sit through Shakespeare who won't ever need it.

When people scream the word "choice", it usually means taking what little money there is for public schools and funneling it into crazy ass Christian private schools.

/FarkLiberal
//And farking proud of it


Problem with that system is that once minorities are shown to be less likely to be on the college "track" the system will be shut down for being racist.
 
2012-07-18 09:30:16 AM

Gyrfalcon: ecmoRandomNumbers: ^^^ What hubie said. ^^^

In spades.

NCLB was a horrible idea from the git-go. It was predicated on the idea, without any research, that schools were bad, teachers were worse, and America needed to catch up with Korea in math and science by God!!

But lo and behold, the schools were not bad, and if teachers were, it was because of stupid experiments like here in California: You mandate a 20:1 ratio for classrooms and no time to graduate enough teachers for the job (because it had to happen NOW!!!!), and issue "emergency credentials" to fill up your classrooms...then guess what, you get a few good people and a whole shiatload of douchebags who want a cushy job but have no business being within 5 miles of a classroom.

Then you put the teachers' unions in the awful position of having to defend these morons, because as union members they're entitled to the same due process, regardless of how rotten they are. I have good friends in CTA, and they are NOT happy they have to afford crappy teachers the same protections as the good ones, but otherwise the legislature will throw out the baby with the bathwater. But you all wanted this, you wanted lots of teachers without having to pay for it, you wanted smaller classes and standardized tests to ensure kids all got taught math and science; and decided that hey! let's make the schools "accountable" by tying their Federal funding to their test scores.

What did they think would happen? Well, teachers started getting pressured to teach to the test, because most states can't afford to lose their federal funds, not when the first thing gutted every election is education (right behind mental health). So people like subby can only blame themselves. You can't have standardized testing tied to funding without the mess we've got today.

/end rant
//but I'm still pissed


^^^^ THIS x1000000 ^^^^
 
2012-07-18 09:32:49 AM

WhyteRaven74: KimNorth: because half the kids speak a different language

Interesting you bring this up because it brings to mind a part of American education history that's pretty well ignored. Bilingual schools were at one time quite common in certain parts of the country. Anywhere with large German populations would have schools that taught in English and German, in Louisiana you had schools teaching in French and English. And in the southwest there were even schools teaching in Spanish and English. And the crazy, to our minds, thing is there were children showing up to start school who were born to American born parents, who would speak not a word of English when they started school. All they knew was German or French or Spanish. And the schools taught them both in their native language and English and were just as good as any other schools. The idea that you can't have students do well and can't have good schools with students who don't speak English exclusively or even primarily is patently absurd.

As for American born non-native English speakers, one became President. Martin van Buren was born in New York but his native language was Dutch. He didn't learn English until he started school. Van Buren was also the first President born an American citizen, the ones before him were all born during the colonial period.


These kids would end up doing very well if we still did in class what we did back in the day and teach in English only (emergent). They for the most part did not have the teacher teaching in two languages except in the "second" language class. The students did very well who spoke no English as they were not confusion or taken away from the regular teachings and as we know kids learn languages very quickly. The way we handle second languages now causes long term language confusion and frustration for the student.
 
2012-07-18 09:33:48 AM

AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.


Exactly. My high school held to a standard like this starting in the 80s. The result? Physics was taught by two teachers, one with a Doctorate, one with a Master's. Chemistry, Master's. Theology? Doctor of Divinity. Every instructor has at least a Master's degree in their field, and the scores show it- our passage rate for the state exams was perpetually 100%, our average SAT was a 1350 of 1600, our ACT was 32/36. They wanted the best, and they were willing to pay for it- my Physics teacher commented once he was getting paid 85k a year with a Master's, at a time when public school teachers were getting 35k.

It was a rule written in blood the diocese learned in the 70s when one of the outlying schools had an English teacher who was found to have not even graduated high school, and their student scores were pathetic as a result.

It just makes sense. You wouldn't hire a driving instructor who passed the exam twenty years ago but hadn't used it since and had no certification to prove they could effectively teach it. Why would you do so with schools?
 
2012-07-18 09:34:18 AM
Knowing the historical ins and outs of not just English and American lit but the language, and various cultural matters, is every bit as specialized as physics.

That's great for maybe the 11th grade advanced english lit class, but for the 6th grade english class, you don't need a PhD to teach prepositions.

And teachers in my township get average annual compensation of $118,288. They're doing ok.
 
2012-07-18 09:34:50 AM

Ashtrey: Reads more like Harvey Danger.


Yeah, I screwed up.
 
2012-07-18 09:35:54 AM

WhyteRaven74: MugzyBrown: Because one subject requires much more specialized education than the other

Knowing the historical ins and outs of not just English and American lit but the language, and various cultural matters, is every bit as specialized as physics.


Where I am and as far as I know for the majority of the nation, the person qualified to teach Physics would be in far greater demand than those qualified to teach English literature. This is not itself a bad reason to pay one teacher more than another.
 
2012-07-18 09:36:05 AM
In order for my wife to get certified in music, she had to learn to play every instrument in the orchestra to a reasonable level of competency, and select two instruments to play at recital level... and that was just to get the degree that allowed her to be qualified to take the music certification test.

Because of the Republican government in my state gutted the arts, she now has to take the social studies exam which requires the following knowledge base in order to pass:

World history - dawn of civilization to modern times.
American history - pre-colonial to modern times.
Economics - mostly macroeconomic principles, but some micro.
Geogrpahy - both American and world geography.

The standards are already as rigorous as any other profession. So spare me the bullshiat argument that conservatives put forth... especially since it comes from the people that say that they want higher standards for teachers, then tells them that they have to teach that Jesus rode dinosaurs and that the earth is 6000 years old.
 
2012-07-18 09:36:45 AM

MugzyBrown: Knowing the historical ins and outs of not just English and American lit but the language, and various cultural matters, is every bit as specialized as physics.

That's great for maybe the 11th grade advanced english lit class, but for the 6th grade english class, you don't need a PhD to teach prepositions.

And teachers in my township get average annual compensation of $118,288. They're doing ok.


In average annual compensation, you're counting their benefits as well, aren't you?
 
2012-07-18 09:40:33 AM
I love to bear teachers wine. Woe is me. Often here it at happy hour from the teachers who I know. Sorry teachers, you do not work more hours than other professions.

Also, cost per student has tripled since 1979s. That money was funneled into administration. Yet I never hear you blast them, it is always just give us more! The school district.here has a money to classroom ratio of 54%, nearly half the money gets funneled into administration. We pay enough for schools, teachers are just doing an awful job fighting for the money from admin.

Lastly, the reason students haven't increased test scores is because liberal teachers are afraid to fail a student because it would damage their self esteem. There is no accountability for failing students. Separate the smart from the dumb. Don't retard the learning of the intelligent by teaching at the speed of the slowest learner. Stop putting self esteem over the learning of the student. Mix groups into aptitude groups, teach to like learning groups. Stop the social massaging of kids.
 
2012-07-18 09:40:37 AM

Portia: MugzyBrown: Knowing the historical ins and outs of not just English and American lit but the language, and various cultural matters, is every bit as specialized as physics.

That's great for maybe the 11th grade advanced english lit class, but for the 6th grade english class, you don't need a PhD to teach prepositions.

And teachers in my township get average annual compensation of $118,288. They're doing ok.

In average annual compensation, you're counting their benefits as well, aren't you?



He might also be counting continuing ed programs, reimbursement for out of pocket expenses and milage for all we know.
 
2012-07-18 09:42:15 AM

MugzyBrown: That's great for maybe the 11th grade advanced english lit class, but for the 6th grade english class, you don't need a PhD to teach prepositions.


Yeah but you're also not teaching physics to sixth graders.
 
2012-07-18 09:45:34 AM

MyRandomName: I love to bear teachers wine. Woe is me. Often here it at happy hour from the teachers who I know. Sorry teachers, you do not work more hours than other professions.



I work in IT for a school system. The teachers worked more hours than me in a harder situation than I did. I made more than them and eventually left. Among the reasons was I could make more doing the same thing elsewhere. At that time I had no degree.

I know people who put in more hours than those teachers, but none who do it for less than twice that amount of money.
 
2012-07-18 09:48:01 AM

MugzyBrown: Knowing the historical ins and outs of not just English and American lit but the language, and various cultural matters, is every bit as specialized as physics.

That's great for maybe the 11th grade advanced english lit class, but for the 6th grade english class, you don't need a PhD to teach prepositions.

And teachers in my township get average annual compensation of $118,288. They're doing ok.


Wouldn't mind seeing a citation for that- if it's true then lots of farkteachers will be applying soon. Of course, compensation =/= salary. Is this one of those averages where people were told that Detroit autoworkers were making an average of $70 an hour?
 
2012-07-18 09:50:29 AM

MyRandomName: Lastly, the reason students haven't increased test scores is because liberal teachers are afraid to fail a student because it would damage their self esteem. There is no accountability for failing students. Separate the smart from the dumb. Don't retard the learning of the intelligent by teaching at the speed of the slowest learner. Stop putting self esteem over the learning of the student. Mix groups into aptitude groups, teach to like learning groups. Stop the social massaging of kids.


You truly are an idiot if you think that teachers are behind any of those decisions. Those fall at the principal or school board level. There were many times I gave a kid an F only because I couldn't give the kid a G, only to have my grade over-ridden by principal who was too afraid of a lawsuit. Splitting the kids into aptitude groups sparks lawsuits from parents who scream about not following their kids' IEP's (Individual Education Plans), a product of the Americans with Disabilities Act signed by George H.W. Bush, as well as the 'stigma' produced by grouping kids that way.

Who appoints principals? School boards. Who elects school boards? Parents.

So shut the fark up.
 
2012-07-18 09:50:35 AM

MyRandomName: I love to bear teachers wine. Woe is me. Often here it at happy hour from the teachers who I know. Sorry teachers, you do not work more hours than other professions.

Also, cost per student has tripled since 1979s. That money was funneled into administration. Yet I never hear you blast them, it is always just give us more! The school district.here has a money to classroom ratio of 54%, nearly half the money gets funneled into administration. We pay enough for schools, teachers are just doing an awful job fighting for the money from admin.

Lastly, the reason students haven't increased test scores is because liberal teachers are afraid to fail a student because it would damage their self esteem. There is no accountability for failing students. Separate the smart from the dumb. Don't retard the learning of the intelligent by teaching at the speed of the slowest learner. Stop putting self esteem over the learning of the student. Mix groups into aptitude groups, teach to like learning groups. Stop the social massaging of kids.


There is a lot of derp here, but let's just try this one- why is it the teacher's job to "fight for the money" paid to administrators? How is attacking teachers unions going to curb the pay of administrators?
 
2012-07-18 09:51:04 AM

untaken_name: If you're biatching about the salaries of public school teachers, you better be biatching at the administrators, because we already spend more per child than any other country and that money is going SOMEWHERE. If it isn't going to buildings, and it isn't going to programs, and it isn't going to supplies, and it isn't going to teachers...what does that leave?


AMEN! I just left the public school system for a private school. I just couldn't take the BS that comes with public schools. The school I taught at was tiny and yet we had an AP, we had to cut the school secretary and a couple of teachers but we had an AP. This meant that our guidance person spent most of her highly paid days answering the phone. Did I mention this was a school with major behavior issues, so if you had a rampaging child oh well the office was too busy covering the phones to help. They were not however too busy to come into your class and nitpick about BS like seating arrangements,count the number of words on your word wall and configuration boards. (I taught K yes having a poster that had the standard and a bunch of other bs was totally the key to my kids getting the lesson)

I have no issue with the new tests or having to have a related degree, I got my initial certification in MA and the process is much longer and tougher there. I was starting my masters, which is a requirement for continuing your certification in MA. When I moved to FL I looked at the pay difference and it was something like 1k a year more if you had your masters so I stopped as there was no economic incentive or requirement.

oh and as far as the testing company goes... guess who owns one here in FL... Jeb.
 
2012-07-18 09:55:45 AM
There's a test for babysitters?
 
2012-07-18 09:55:58 AM

Job Creator: MugzyBrown: Knowing the historical ins and outs of not just English and American lit but the language, and various cultural matters, is every bit as specialized as physics.

That's great for maybe the 11th grade advanced english lit class, but for the 6th grade english class, you don't need a PhD to teach prepositions.

And teachers in my township get average annual compensation of $118,288. They're doing ok.

Wouldn't mind seeing a citation for that- if it's true then lots of farkteachers will be applying soon. Of course, compensation =/= salary. Is this one of those averages where people were told that Detroit autoworkers were making an average of $70 an hour?


Seriously. Because if that number is including things like the little classroom supplies stipends some districts give so teachers can buy their students paper and pencils, that's not for ME. That's so my students can have, you know, paper and pencils. When I taught in Philadelphia we got $100 a year for classroom supplies and 2 reams of paper per month. That was it. I had to buy or borrow or beg everything else. I taught in a very impoverished region in the city, so the kids often came with nothing--no notebooks, no paper, absolutely nothing. Thankfully my church did a drive for teachers each year so I didn't have to go out and buy binders, markers, paper, rulers, and a thousand other things for 150 kids all on my own, but I estimate my out of pocket expenses were between $1000 and $1500 every year.
 
2012-07-18 09:58:28 AM

AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.


scientists, technicians, and engineers don't get anywhere near the overall compensation teachers do. You do know what pensions are, right? Teachers easily make 50k minumum every year for life when they retire at the ripe old age of 55. In many cases, close to 6 figures. Bonus? They hardly pay anything in to it, get summers off, cannot be fired but for extraordinary circumstances.

Teachers are lazy sacks of garbage that are failing our kids, and extremely wealthy people. Don't listen to the BS about average starting salaries, paints a really dumb picture. They all vote Democrat because it continues their failure brigade of making more welfare cases who will then vote Democrat.
 
2012-07-18 09:58:41 AM

tudorgurl: o5iiawah: untaken_name: We already pay more than any other country per child. How do those other countries manage to have decent teachers while spending less money than we spend?

They direct students who show a propensity towards excellence in certain subjects or fields towards teachers who specialize in teaching such things.

You might otherwise call it "choice" or as the FarkLibs call it, "Somalia"

Actually, I'm all for tracking students to their strengths. Not all of my students will be college material. Not all of my students would do well in an automotive career. But there needs to be some balance there, This whole "college-ready" craze that's forcing even special ed kids to be "college ready" (whatever that means...) is hurting students more than it's helping them. I wish we could have an education system more like Europe's where students can take specialized courses to get them a career or a certification rather than forcing kids to sit through Shakespeare who won't ever need it.

When people scream the word "choice", it usually means taking what little money there is for public schools and funneling it into crazy ass Christian private schools.

/FarkLiberal
//And farking proud of it


Damn straight.
/Teacher for 13 years
 
2012-07-18 09:59:51 AM
When you make the qualifications necessary to teach high enough, and keep the pay low enough for public school teachers, then all you do is ensure that people who have the qualifications choose some more lucrative profession in which to use those qualifications than teach public schools.

But really, that's kind of the point, isn't it?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-18 10:03:50 AM

Kangaroo_Ralph: Teachers' salaries would be higher and your kids would be learning if it weren't for teachers unions.

Truth troll is still truth.


And bullshiat is still bullshiat.

The anti-union thing is simply partisan politics. Unions don't give much money to Republicans so it's payback time when they are in power.

If you look at actuall data, it doesn't support that at all.

For instance California's spending per pupil is less han half of Wyomings when adjusted for the different costs in the state. Mississippi spends more per student than California when adjusted for the fact that everything is cheaper in MS.
Link (PDF)
 
2012-07-18 10:04:20 AM

AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.


Are you a teacher or have one in the family?

Welcome to Fark

t2.gstatic.com
 
2012-07-18 10:06:28 AM

THE GREAT NAME: Heh. All the teachers in here are like "wah wah it's not a proper test, examiners are on the take, proves nothing" etc


Spout off when your opinion is informed, please. Not before.

You think the content certification tests are directly relevant? See for yourself. Pass one. I dare you. Your state's requirements (and standards) can be found here. Take the Praxis II - [Content] most relevant to your existing degree. Pass it. And I double-dare you to take either the Math SME or History SME component. (Don't take the PLT, you'll actually need education courses to attempt that one. Not sure they'd even let you sign up for it without education credits to your name.)

I have taken Praxis II. It's a hard test; the time pressure alone can take you down if you're not in your groove. It also uses the entire standardized test playbook. One right answer, one almost right answer, two common wrong answers, and a nonsense answer. Guess, and they deduct. Etc.

Nothing on that test is below undergraduate-level math. Nothing on that test is directly relevant to anything I'll ever teach at the high school level. But while I believe that standardized tests are frequently misapplied and misinterpreted... NCLB is an abomination for its statistical model alone... there is, in my mind, some indirect value to Praxis II - Math.

If you can meet a state's standards, there's a pretty good argument to be made that you'll either know the high school level content, or quickly learn it if it's new or (like me), you had to grind off a couple decades worth of rust.

Not thrilled by the mandated subsidies to EDS.
 
2012-07-18 10:06:58 AM

The Homer Tax: When you make the qualifications necessary to teach high enough, and keep the pay low enough for public school teachers, then all you do is ensure that people who have the qualifications choose some more lucrative profession in which to use those qualifications than teach public schools.

But really, that's kind of the point, isn't it?


Exactly. It's a feedback loop for the low tax crowd-
1. Starve the schools- don't pay teachers, treat them poorly, funnel money somewhere else not directly involved in educating children (facilities, administration, tests, kickbacks, etc)
2. Schools perform poorly.
3. People refuse to spend more tax money on failing schools.
4. Go back up to Step 1.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-18 10:07:37 AM

Thunderpipes: AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.

scientists, technicians, and engineers don't get anywhere near the overall compensation teachers do. You do know what pensions are, right? Teachers easily make 50k minumum every year for life when they retire at the ripe old age of 55. In many cases, close to 6 figures. Bonus? They hardly pay anything in to it, get summers off, cannot be fired but for extraordinary circumstances.

Teachers are lazy sacks of garbage that are failing our kids, and extremely wealthy people. Don't listen to the BS about average starting salaries, paints a really dumb picture. They all vote Democrat because it continues their failure brigade of making more welfare cases who will then vote Democrat.


Well, you certainly sound like a voice of reason.
 
2012-07-18 10:12:09 AM

MyRandomName: I love to bear teachers wine. Woe is me. Often here it at happy hour from the teachers who I know.


Given the large number of spelling and grammar errors in your post, I don't believe you know teachers at all.
 
2012-07-18 10:13:58 AM
There are bad teachers out there that will still get through.

CSB time-

My daughter is currently attending a magnet school which is difficult to get into as each child must pass through a screening process which included references from previous teachers, an essay, 3 prior years of a decent GPA (can't do much better than a 4.0 three years running), attendance records, community service etc. To make matters more difficult, these kids compete with all kids from other area schools as well. There is no garanteed acceptance for attending any particular school, private school alumni's don't get preferential treatment- you make the cut or you don't. By the way- this is a public school.

My kid, as did many of her friends, knew what it took to get in three years prior, and did everything that was expected of them and beyond.

This school is divided into three specialties: the arts (theater, music, production), math and sciences, and college prep. My daughter went college prep as they offer college level classes and AP testing along the way. If done right, a student could complete their freshmen level of college.

Being her first year in highschool, my daughter decided to focus on her two required years of a language, AP math, AP history (only because she knew other kids in the class), english and social studies. She did well, with her lowest grade being an A-. She was reluctant, however, to take the AP tests. After some coaxing from her friends, she decided to give the history test a try. When asked about it that night, she said she did terrible. She always says that with every test, so I didn't give it much thought.

True to her word- she didn't do so well. Seems none of her friends did all that well either (despite the "A" they had all managed to earn). When questioned a little further, she shrugged it off commenting that the teacher could have at least taught something that was on the exam. The answers she did get right, she attributes to her own reading and what she had learned in previous classes. Other than that little tidbit, I got no other commentary other than "because he sucked at being a teacher". Something I rarely hear out of my kid regardless of how tough the class was. I've asked her to do some checking around to see how well kids outside her group of friends did on the test, and how well they did in other AP tests outside of history. Some of the kids within her group who did take other AP tests did well on them.

My preliminary thoughts on this one: qualified teacher that can't teach- at least the material required to pass college level testing. Their qualifications are impeccable as each holds a bachelors degree or higher, with several years of teaching expirience. All the teachers want to be there, there's a long waiting line to get in.

No aptitude or qualification test will catch all bad teachers. Only by compiling the results of their teaching can you determine their ability to teach effectively. Unfortunately, compiling that data would be far more costly than a feel good aptitude test.

The only postive I can come up with for testing would be that it may just scare away the teachers who know, deep down, they just really are not qualified to teach.
 
2012-07-18 10:16:24 AM

AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.


I'd welcome a program that linked kids performance to pay grade, ie - if they can test out or show a high gpa it would allow the school to hire a teacher at the salaries you're speaking of to continue pushing the kid's abilities.
 
2012-07-18 10:23:46 AM

Thunderpipes:
Teachers are lazy sacks of garbage that are failing our kids, and extremely wealthy people. Don't listen to the BS about average starting salaries, paints a really dumb picture. They all vote Democrat because it continues their failure brigade of making more welfare cases who will then vote Democrat.


I knew it!!!

I knew that all this time that my wife claims she is working on her Masters and doing course prep for a new course next year it was all a SHAM!!! She is lying to me, likely has some sort of screen saver that makes it look like she is working when she is likley on her REAL facebook account (the one I must not be friended on). What I really need to do is install some sort of key logger so I can see where she keeps all this PHAT LEWT!. I mean, I do our taxes, and while we are not hurting and the W2s show I make nearly 70% more than here, its good to know she is EXTREMELY WEALTHY. I guess the teacher unions must have some secret offshore bank account somewhere that is tax exempt. I need to find out where all the money is kept so I can see just how EXTREMELY WEALTHY we are. If it is good enough, maybe I can afford that $50,000 plate at the next Romney campaign stop (what better way to get back at someone that ALWAYS votes Democrat. Always...)

Thanks ThunderPipers, random internet guy, for opening my eyes to this great deception that is occuring in my own household. I can't wait to tell all my friends that I am now EXTREMEMLY WEALTHY!

I'd stick around, but I think I will go shopping for 50 foot yachts and dancing horses now!
 
2012-07-18 10:24:00 AM
Link

Salary & Benefits $55m on 465 teachers and aids.
 
2012-07-18 10:26:01 AM

sycraft: I'm all for raising teacher standards but if you want to do that, you have to raise pay too. Can't have it both ways. Skilled people are also generally skilled in comparing paychecks and determining which number is higher. Plus teachers get to put up with a good deal of bullshiat from students and parents, and is one of the few jobs that has homework (they have to spend time at home creating and grading the homework they assign, during class time they are busy teaching).

Now that's all fine, but as I said, have to pay more if you want good people to do it. If the work kinda sucks and the pay kinda sucks than the quality of employee will suck.

So you have to decide what you want. If less spending is the priority, no problem, then you have to take what you get. If high quality is the priority, no problem, but you have to pay for it.


Below is the face of every politician after having read that

3.bp.blogspot.com

/but we can have it all for free, I promise, elect me, better schools, lower taxes, really, elect me
//it's hot
 
2012-07-18 10:26:12 AM
I don't think you need a MS degree in math to teach third-grade math. But you do need to know third-grade math.

Watched a teacher write "priarie" and "diary" on the whiteboard when she meant "prairie" and "dairy." The school was named Prairie Middle School.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-07-18 10:27:27 AM

fracto73: Portia: MugzyBrown: Knowing the historical ins and outs of not just English and American lit but the language, and various cultural matters, is every bit as specialized as physics.

That's great for maybe the 11th grade advanced english lit class, but for the 6th grade english class, you don't need a PhD to teach prepositions.

And teachers in my township get average annual compensation of $118,288. They're doing ok.

In average annual compensation, you're counting their benefits as well, aren't you?


He might also be counting continuing ed programs, reimbursement for out of pocket expenses and milage for all we know.


The figures are grossly inflated. It's easy to manipulate statistics when you don't show your data. I think what they do is divide total employment costs (which includes things like bus drivers and janitors) by the number of teachers.

That way it isn't a lie, exactly. They are spending X dollars per teacher on salaries, but that doesn't tell you anything about what teachers are paid because the money doesn't all go to teachers.
 
2012-07-18 10:29:10 AM
Best and worst paid teachers in the US

There are some amusing discrepancies.

HIGHEST

#3: California
Average Salary 2010/11: $69,434
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 21 (49th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 270.44 (46th) / 252.63 (49th)

#2: Massachusetts
Average Salary 2010/11: $71,017
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.58 (15th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 298.85 (1st) / 273.58 (1st) WOOHOO! GO MASSHOLES!

#1: New York
Average Salary 2010/11: $72,708
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.8 (4th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 282.57 (31st) / 264.28 (31st)


LOWEST

#3: Missouri
Average Salary 2010/11: $46,411
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.2 (11th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 285.8 (22nd) / 266.87 (17th)

#2: North Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $44,266
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.9 (6th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 292.84 (4th) / 269.24 (10th)

#1: South Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $35,201
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.4 (14th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 290.61 (8th) / 270.06 (8th)


It looks like parents in Massachusetts and the Dakotas are seeing high ROI. Cali and NY? Not so much.


Here is another article on comparing teacher stats across the OECD.

NYTimes

TL;DR, American teachers put in more hours then any other country, are paid "ok" on an absolute scale, but are underpaid compared to their country's wealth status
 
2012-07-18 10:29:33 AM

AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.


Could not have put it better. While there are very good teachers who are either leftover from better times in public education or those who genuinely like teaching enough to put up with all the shiat it brings, a lot of times you get what you pay for - shiat. Honestly, who the hell wants to go into teaching in the public schools these days? The state treats you like shiat. The public thinks you're worthless. The school district treats you like shiat. The district treats you like shiat. There is a high chance of the administration treating you like shiat (though there are a few decent principals left here and there). You're guaranteed at least a few parents that will treat you like shiat. And a good chunk of the kids are farking nightmares. No thanks.

/mother is a teacher
//going for a Ph.D because I want to teach but won't put up with the public school system bullshiat
 
2012-07-18 10:29:37 AM
How much learnin does it take to use a study guide?
 
2012-07-18 10:30:34 AM

MooseUpNorth: MyRandomName: I love to bear teachers wine. Woe is me. Often here it at happy hour from the teachers who I know.

Given the large number of spelling and grammar errors in your post, I don't believe you know teachers at all.


I was thinking maybe a non-native english speaker and suggest that YOU might want to brush up on your foreign language skills before throwing stones. After a couple of re-reads though, I'm placing my money on either youth or an alcohol driven rant on the part of MyRandomName.
.
 
2012-07-18 10:35:14 AM

BarkingUnicorn: I don't think you need a MS degree in math to teach third-grade math. But you do need to know third-grade math.

Watched a teacher write "priarie" and "diary" on the whiteboard when she meant "prairie" and "dairy." The school was named Prairie Middle School.


Dyslexia- how does that work again?
 
2012-07-18 10:35:46 AM

vpb: The figures are grossly inflated. It's easy to manipulate statistics when you don't show your data. I think what they do is divide total employment costs (which includes things like bus drivers and janitors) by the number of teachers.


It's teacher salary & teacher benefits divided by number of teachers.
 
2012-07-18 10:40:07 AM
It's about f*ckin time!

What the teachers need to realize is that they need something to warrant higher pay. Quit biatching and prove yourselves worthy.

I have to demonstrate value in my job every day. How 'bout you?
 
2012-07-18 10:41:28 AM

Cubicle Jockey: Best and worst paid teachers in the US


This kind of supports my point. You're right, the money doens't drive results but if you consider the social factors and income levels of those states across the board, you're going to see states with a lot of poor/under-priveledged populations (CA) score much lower than states with much smaller percentages (MA). You're going to find less dense popluations with more middle and upper-middle class per capita will have family environments more suitable to encourage learning.

Seeing this list also says that perhaps, and just maybe, that income could be from the higher standard of living costs that comes from living in Cali. and Mass. versus living in South Dakota.
 
2012-07-18 10:41:39 AM
As a grajewate of Florida publik skewls I can defenativley state that the skewls/techurs arnt so bad, its mostly the stewdents.

Seriously though, with the exception of some bad "inner city" schools (every place has them) the schools and teachers here aren't as bad as they seem by the scores. The reasons for our bad scores have a lot to do with anti-education sentiments in some of the subcultures here, children of immigrant parents who work 3 jobs each so they can't really spend time with their kids and don't speak a lick of English, etc. If you have parents who are fortunate enough to have the opportunity to nurture your education and you intentionally go towards the "good" path in your school, you can get a decent education here without too much trouble.
 
2012-07-18 10:48:32 AM

Cubicle Jockey: Best and worst paid teachers in the US

There are some amusing discrepancies.

HIGHEST

#3: California
Average Salary 2010/11: $69,434
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 21 (49th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 270.44 (46th) / 252.63 (49th)

#2: Massachusetts
Average Salary 2010/11: $71,017
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.58 (15th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 298.85 (1st) / 273.58 (1st) WOOHOO! GO MASSHOLES!

#1: New York
Average Salary 2010/11: $72,708
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.8 (4th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 282.57 (31st) / 264.28 (31st)


LOWEST

#3: Missouri
Average Salary 2010/11: $46,411
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.2 (11th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 285.8 (22nd) / 266.87 (17th)

#2: North Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $44,266
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 11.9 (6th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 292.84 (4th) / 269.24 (10th)

#1: South Dakota
Average Salary 2010/11: $35,201
Students Per Teacher 2010/11: 13.4 (14th)
NAEP Math/Reading Score 2009: 290.61 (8th) / 270.06 (8th)


It looks like parents in Massachusetts and the Dakotas are seeing high ROI. Cali and NY? Not so much.


Here is another article on comparing teacher stats across the OECD.

NYTimes

TL;DR, American teachers put in more hours then any other country, are paid "ok" on an absolute scale, but are underpaid compared to their country's wealth status


See, a commie/fascist lib like myself might note that states like New York and California have incredibly diverse populations, 100's of languages, socio-economic disparities, and cost of living differences from Missouri and North Dakota.
 
2012-07-18 10:51:05 AM

MugzyBrown: vpb: The figures are grossly inflated. It's easy to manipulate statistics when you don't show your data. I think what they do is divide total employment costs (which includes things like bus drivers and janitors) by the number of teachers.

It's teacher salary & teacher benefits divided by number of teachers.


Where do the 666 staff member fall? If they only fall under Expediture on Instructions, they would average about $65,000 a year. But it make no mention of their benefits and this using the entire budget for instruction on Staff pay. So where does stuff like lighting, books, software licenses, fuel, insurance and othere stuff fit into the budget? Surely not all in Expenditure per pupil. That number is way too low to cover everything else.

I would think it more likely that staff and teachers is included in the salary and benefits line, which would be and averaget of about $48,666 for each employee. That is in line with the this claim:

The average teacher salary in Cheltenham Township School District is $49,794.

So unless you can say for certain where those 666 staff members fall in budget and where all the other expenses are accounted for, you really don't have much of an arguement.

Expenditures on instruction: $43,590,000
Expenditures on teacher salary: $41,823,000
Expenditures on teacher benefits: $13,181,000
Expenditures per student: $772,000
Total expenditures: $78,644,000


•Staff: 666
•Full time teachers: 365
•Pupil to teacher ratio: 11 to 1
•Teacher assistants (instructional aides): 100
 
2012-07-18 10:51:12 AM
Late to the party, but I'll add my CSB.

I am retired military and currently teach 8th grade science. There's absolutely no way I could teach without my monthly retirement check. In fact, I still earn more from Uncle Sam than I do from the teaching gig.

I teach because I'm a total science nerd and always have been. I essentially channel my own 8th grade science teacher (RIP Mr. Nelson) who was 50% Bill Nye and 50% Gallagher. A few years ago, I almost quit as I became disillusioned with the emphasis on the standardized tests. In my state, the test is given a month and a half before the end of the school year, so I literally had to cram 10 months of material into 8 months, and then spend two weeks reviewing it all again before the test. The kids hated it. I hated it.

Finally, a couple years ago, I said screw it and taught science the way I wanted to, often going outside my standard to teach things the kids (and I) were interested in. I quit giving the school-mandated practice tests, and instead introduced a lesson on the science behind test creation and test taking. I really expected the scores to tank that year, but they actually went up, and have gone up each year as I become more of a rebel. When I get evaluated, I make sure I'm wearing a tie and conduct a lesson the way I'm expected to. My co-conspirators (the students) help me perform what a lesson is supposed to look like in the eyes of my state and district. When the boss leaves, it's back to doing it what my kids call "the fun way."

I think Mr. Nelson would approve.
 
2012-07-18 10:53:21 AM

clowncar on fire: I was thinking maybe a non-native english speaker and suggest that YOU might want to brush up on your foreign language skills before throwing stones. After a couple of re-reads though, I'm placing my money on either youth or an alcohol driven rant on the part of MyRandomName.
.


Combien de langues doit-je savoir avant que tu sois satisfait? Trois? Quatre?

i2.kym-cdn.com

I'd be happy if he'd had just the one.
 
2012-07-18 10:53:33 AM
CSB:
I was at a party that had several grammar and middle school age teachers there. One of the women was talking about teaching about the Civil War and that "Stonewall Jackson"'s nickname was "old hickory". I pulled her aside and said that "Old Hickory" belonged to president Andrew Jackson and that "Stonewall" was the nickname for Thomas jackson, the confederate general who was likely shot by his own men. She told me that she believed I was incorrect and walked away from me.
 
2012-07-18 10:54:32 AM

larrycot: Late to the party, but I'll add my CSB.

I am retired military and currently teach 8th grade science. There's absolutely no way I could teach without my monthly retirement check. In fact, I still earn more from Uncle Sam than I do from the teaching gig.

I teach because I'm a total science nerd and always have been. I essentially channel my own 8th grade science teacher (RIP Mr. Nelson) who was 50% Bill Nye and 50% Gallagher. A few years ago, I almost quit as I became disillusioned with the emphasis on the standardized tests. In my state, the test is given a month and a half before the end of the school year, so I literally had to cram 10 months of material into 8 months, and then spend two weeks reviewing it all again before the test. The kids hated it. I hated it.

Finally, a couple years ago, I said screw it and taught science the way I wanted to, often going outside my standard to teach things the kids (and I) were interested in. I quit giving the school-mandated practice tests, and instead introduced a lesson on the science behind test creation and test taking. I really expected the scores to tank that year, but they actually went up, and have gone up each year as I become more of a rebel. When I get evaluated, I make sure I'm wearing a tie and conduct a lesson the way I'm expected to. My co-conspirators (the students) help me perform what a lesson is supposed to look like in the eyes of my state and district. When the boss leaves, it's back to doing it what my kids call "the fun way."

I think Mr. Nelson would approve.


You're awesome.

/not sarcasm
 
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