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(WFTV Orlando)   Teachers union members outraged, OUTRAGED when told that they must pass tests on subjects they are "teaching" to children   (wftv.com ) divider line
    More: Florida, FCAT, professional certification, Florida Department of Education, pay per clicks, Titusville, standards, teachers  
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12408 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Jul 2012 at 4:54 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-17 11:48:36 PM  
FTFA: "I don't think it's getting at what they're trying to do, which is get the best teachers cheapest babysitters in the classroom," said Spar.
 
2012-07-17 11:53:19 PM  
FTFA: Critics say higher standards could create teacher shortages

In Florida? I have no doubt about that. Teachers down here get no respect whatsoever from the state government, let alone their individual school districts. The positions really don't pay very well, compared to teaching positions outside the state. And now, on top of all that, we're going to crank up the standards?

Yeah. Good luck with that.

If your kids are grown and you're thinking about moving to Florida, then come on down and take a look. If you've got kids who need to go to public school... well... you'd probably be better going somewhere else.
 
2012-07-17 11:57:11 PM  
Virginia just passed a law saying you had to have a degree in the field you're teaching. This has had the effect of opening up a shiatload of history and social studies degrees because sports coaches used to grab those classes.
 
2012-07-17 11:58:24 PM  
Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.
 
2012-07-18 12:11:16 AM  

AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.


This.

Nobody wants to deal with your kids for what you're willing to pay for them to do it. Add test and certs without crankin' up bennies and salary and all you're doing in cutting man power. The lawmakers, who won't even get out of bed to piss unless they're getting some money for it, should know this.
 
2012-07-18 12:21:31 AM  

AirForceVet: Troll headline as no teachers expressed outrage over these tests, only explained they would have fewer teachers qualified by these tests.

Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc., skills normally used by scientists, technicians, and engineers, you had better pay them the salary of scientists, technicians, and engineers (or college professors equivalents). Otherwise, scientists, technicians, and engineers won't take pay cuts to teach your snowflakes.

/Which is highly unlikely with the current mentality that public school teachers are all overpaid babysitters.
//And that all problems in public schools are teachers' fault, not parents, administrators, and especially politicians.


I see I'm not needed here.

Look, schlubby, you don't have to tear your labium reaching for any chance you get to stick it to ZOMG TEACHER'S UNION. Just wait a few days and something substantial just might come along.

But by all means, continue being angered by the union. It's not the ultra-rich who unduly influence your government..it's those communists making 60k who are really keeping you from the American Dream. Hey! Look over there! Someone has benefits I don't!

Granted, perhaps I'm giving them too much credit. They schooled someone as easily duped as you.

/farking swear, I can hear your vagina flapping from all the way over here
 
2012-07-18 12:22:54 AM  

doglover: Nobody wants to deal with your kids for what you're willing to pay for them to do it. Add test and certs without crankin' up bennies and salary and all you're doing in cutting man power. The lawmakers, who won't even get out of bed to piss unless they're getting some money for it, should know this.


And they do, but they have to look like they are doing something, now don't they? Anyhow, back in the day when I was in junior high, at least half of the teachers were teaching because the local refineries had shut down and there weren't any better jobs. And look how I turned out.
 
2012-07-18 12:32:23 AM  
You know, it's simple economics.

If you want to do the test to get better teachers...fine.

But be prepare to PAY for those better teachers. People with higher skills will just go do something else.
 
2012-07-18 12:39:28 AM  
In Arizona you have to have a degree (or at least a minor) in the subject you're teaching, plus you have to pass the content knowledge test in that area. I took the test for music and passed it handily, but I was only a few years out of college. Some of the ethnomusicology questions had me stumped, as I didn't focus in that. The essay was an exercise in describing a symphony from beginning to end -- stupid.

Basically, it was a test to make sure I actually went to college for music. Total waste of time for me and everybody else, but the testing company made $250. And that's what's really important in this whole scam.
 
2012-07-18 12:48:16 AM  
This ISN'T about higher standards. Not in the least.

In order to get your teaching certificate, you have to actually pass a few tests. Not just the actual coursework, but the NTEs or other national scholastic exams. You have to actually have those scores current in order to GET your teaching cert. In order to stay certified as a teacher, there are a bunch of hoops to continue your professional development.

These tests are similar to how Massachusetts put up its own teacher's exam, which tossed out the NTEs and I guess other commie tests, for the MTE. The MTE is necessary to get certified in the state of Massachusetts. It is equal or so to the NTE and others.

What it also is, is a subsidy to the exam company that gets to administer and evaluate said exam. It is an extra hoop that some folks don't want to go through, especially since the tests actually cost teachers out of pocket, and not a small sum.

This move is NOT about standards. It is a subsidy to a testing company. Let's call it what it is. NCLB is NOT about standards, it is a subsidy to a testing industry. That education is bound to test that is ill equipped to evaluate real life skills, and instead focuses on easier to evaluate multiple choice questions that don't get into actual skills or cross disciplinary questioning is part of the issue. Teaching to a test with lowered standards and questionable education goals, and tying performance on such a test with funding--punishing those schools who are in trouble, so that they are even MOAR at risk is my biggest problem with NCLB. NCLB is essentially a way of not just covering up the issues that plague schools, but then exacerbates the problems by gutting programs in need. On top of it, it is essentially a state by state giveaway to testing companies.

This move is just another way to subsidize said testing industry, for a "feel good" approach that does nothing to address the real issues. Better to do something, I guess, than do something useful...
 
2012-07-18 12:52:36 AM  
^^^ What hubie said. ^^^
 
2012-07-18 01:25:25 AM  
Sometimes I wish this was the case here in Thailand. As a high school biology teacher, I have to spend an inordinate amount of time undoing the damage done by elementary and junior high school teachers that are absolutely clueless about science, much less the specific science of biology.

So, in principle, I agree with the idea. However, in practice, it's probably pretty much what hubiestubert said.
 
2012-07-18 02:01:16 AM  

YEAH! IT AIN'T WALL STREET AND BANKERS AND LOBBYISTS AND POLITICIANS AND MEDIA CONGLOMERATES AND CITIZENS UNITED AND MONEY IS SPEECH AND CORPORATIONS ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE RUINING AMERICA AND DESTROYING THE MIDDLE CLASS -- IT'S UNIONS!


img207.imageshack.usimg207.imageshack.usimg207.imageshack.us

WAHOO! GET THEM BOOGERS!

 
2012-07-18 03:52:28 AM  

hubiestubert: This ISN'T about higher standards. Not in the least.


What he said.
 
2012-07-18 05:03:30 AM  
If you're biatching about the salaries of public school teachers, you better be biatching at the administrators, because we already spend more per child than any other country and that money is going SOMEWHERE. If it isn't going to buildings, and it isn't going to programs, and it isn't going to supplies, and it isn't going to teachers...what does that leave?
 
2012-07-18 05:07:03 AM  
"We need to make sure the students that are coming up through, they are teachers they can really look up to and respect their knowledge," said Sharkey.

This guy sounds qualified to make decisions about education standards.
 
2012-07-18 05:08:06 AM  

untaken_name: If you're biatching about the salaries of public school teachers, you better be biatching at the administrators, because we already spend more per child than any other country and that money is going SOMEWHERE. If it isn't going to buildings, and it isn't going to programs, and it isn't going to supplies, and it isn't going to teachers...what does that leave?


Hookers and blow.
 
2012-07-18 05:09:26 AM  
You know I've considered becoming a science teacher myself. It's probably one of the few ways I could get a real bachelor's degree without getting hopelessly in debt at this point, as opposed to the associates degree I'm currently pursuing. I love science and I did like my time as a volunteer GED science teacher.

However there seems to be little point in doing so right now. Republicans are in charge, states are slashing jobs left and right and teachers are increasingly seen as the enemy, and aren't paid the cost of their education even in the best of times.
 
2012-07-18 05:10:59 AM  
Troll headlines from a pre-disposed-to-hate-unions subby
 
2012-07-18 05:12:14 AM  
If only MBAs and politicians had to have a yearly recertification on say, ethics for the MBA or civics for the politician...
 
2012-07-18 05:12:59 AM  
Dang, there they go again trying to bust up the unions. Unions can not survive without the stupid.
 
2012-07-18 05:14:00 AM  

Katolu: If only MBAs and politicians had to have a yearly recertification on say, ethics for the MBA or civics for the politician...


Ethics for the politician would be out of the question.
 
2012-07-18 05:17:05 AM  
Have fun filling vacancies in 90% of your positions, Mr. Superintendent.
 
2012-07-18 05:18:13 AM  

Danger Avoid Death: Katolu: If only MBAs and politicians had to have a yearly recertification on say, ethics for the MBA or civics for the politician...

Ethics for the politician would be out of the question.


Yeah, that's why I didn't bother using it as an example. We'd have no one to elect.
 
2012-07-18 05:20:20 AM  
I'm all for raising teacher standards but if you want to do that, you have to raise pay too. Can't have it both ways. Skilled people are also generally skilled in comparing paychecks and determining which number is higher. Plus teachers get to put up with a good deal of bullshiat from students and parents, and is one of the few jobs that has homework (they have to spend time at home creating and grading the homework they assign, during class time they are busy teaching).

Now that's all fine, but as I said, have to pay more if you want good people to do it. If the work kinda sucks and the pay kinda sucks than the quality of employee will suck.

So you have to decide what you want. If less spending is the priority, no problem, then you have to take what you get. If high quality is the priority, no problem, but you have to pay for it.
 
2012-07-18 05:22:39 AM  

Katolu: Danger Avoid Death: Katolu: If only MBAs and politicians had to have a yearly recertification on say, ethics for the MBA or civics for the politician...

Ethics for the politician would be out of the question.

Yeah, that's why I didn't bother using it as an example. We'd have no one to elect.


Not true. Someone could die mid election, ensuring a kind of ethical(if smelly) conduct.
 
2012-07-18 05:24:51 AM  
I taught SAT test prep for a year. The first thing they do is is have you sit the test. It's reasonable. How are you supposed to coach people on material you haven't mastered?

That said, it's not clear how subby got his tagline out of TFA. This isn't a case of union biatching. The problem appears to be that there simply aren't enough qualified people willing to teach public school students under the new standards.

It puts me in mind of how pompous and unrealistic people can be when they fantasize about the sort of teachers that should be educating school children. Apparently, the clouds must part and Almighty God must shiat out a sufficient cluster of selfless, impeccably behaved paragons of knowledge in a cloud of butterflies and rainbows; and these imaginary angels must then set to work for whatever wage the voters deign to pay, suffer whatever indignity their blameless charges dish out, and in general eat shiat like it's their favorite dish.

Good luck with that.

/glad I don't have children *knocks wood*
 
2012-07-18 05:24:54 AM  

sycraft: I'm all for raising teacher standards but if you want to do that, you have to raise pay too. Can't have it both ways.


We already pay more than any other country per child. How do those other countries manage to have decent teachers while spending less money than we spend? Maybe the answer isn't to throw even more money at the problem, but to reallocate the massive amount of money we're already spending....nah, then we couldn't beat the "teachers need more money" drum to get administrators nice raises and bonuses and building complexes that look like upscale medical office parks anymore.
 
2012-07-18 05:25:28 AM  
Now if only they did that here. In the UK schools are forcing teachers to teach subjects they're not qualified for, even if the teacher objects they're being told "if you can teach you can teach anything".

I know someone who has been told that in September they're teaching GCSE Psychology despite having no qualifications or experience in the subject.
 
2012-07-18 05:29:33 AM  

hubiestubert: This move is just another way to subsidize said testing industry, for a "feel good" approach that does nothing to address the real issues


Oh, I am glad you cleared that up. I thought teachers being unqualified to teach their subjects was a real issue. Glad to see that I was mistaken.

Well, I have to go now. Our softball 3rd base coach is calling us in to teach us how to derive the Clausius-Clapeyron equation.
 
2012-07-18 05:38:49 AM  
I'd love to know more about the tests.

Teachers SHOULD know the material that they're going to teach to a reasonable degree (and, no, that doesn't necessarily mean they should know answers to trivia questions offhand). Conversely, I don't see why any middle school math teacher should have to score 70% or better on a test of differential equations questions. Yes, it'd be nice, but shouldn't keep people from areas where they're qualified.
 
2012-07-18 05:44:13 AM  
Left teaching a decade ago for reasons touched on by most of the folks in this thread. The pay's lousy, the job is hard (if you try to do it WELL, that is), you get very little respect and the hours are much longer than you think (given lesson prep, marking, meetings and extracurricular activities).

Really, if you stay in the profession you're either a saint (and there are a lot of them), an idiot (some of them, too) or a purdyfile (30ish girl kiddie-diddlers we read about on Fark).

/Still have friends in the job
//It has ... aged ... them
///Mad respect and slashies for good teachers
 
2012-07-18 05:53:59 AM  
My mom was a teacher, now she runs a day care. Her life is teaching kids. I taught her class a few times because she's prone to migraines and they were monsters twice but they wanted me over some state-sub. I didn't let them get away with anything, but what really got us through that was that I knew what I was talking about and could explain it. Basic math, Basic history (including the few times when I said the books were rubbish). This was a private Christian school.

My mom always hoped I'd become a teacher. I just managed to hate children.
 
2012-07-18 05:59:20 AM  
We're so farked. It's almost funny in how badly our future is farked in this country.
Subby's view of the freedom-hating unions and elitist teachers (with their learnin' and books) is the majority opinion and it's only growing in popularity.

In 50 years will we even have science being taught in schools at all?
fark. I'm not sure I can handle education news any more.


/had a few great teachers in high school that mean a lot to me, and the rest are asshole coaches that aren't qualified to teach nap time in kindergarten
 
2012-07-18 06:06:43 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: In 50 years will we even have science being taught in schools at all?


No, because we are too busy teaching kids how to put condoms on bananas, and gender studies courses.
 
2012-07-18 06:12:12 AM  

ecmoRandomNumbers: ^^^ What hubie said. ^^^


In spades.

NCLB was a horrible idea from the git-go. It was predicated on the idea, without any research, that schools were bad, teachers were worse, and America needed to catch up with Korea in math and science by God!!

But lo and behold, the schools were not bad, and if teachers were, it was because of stupid experiments like here in California: You mandate a 20:1 ratio for classrooms and no time to graduate enough teachers for the job (because it had to happen NOW!!!!), and issue "emergency credentials" to fill up your classrooms...then guess what, you get a few good people and a whole shiatload of douchebags who want a cushy job but have no business being within 5 miles of a classroom.

Then you put the teachers' unions in the awful position of having to defend these morons, because as union members they're entitled to the same due process, regardless of how rotten they are. I have good friends in CTA, and they are NOT happy they have to afford crappy teachers the same protections as the good ones, but otherwise the legislature will throw out the baby with the bathwater. But you all wanted this, you wanted lots of teachers without having to pay for it, you wanted smaller classes and standardized tests to ensure kids all got taught math and science; and decided that hey! let's make the schools "accountable" by tying their Federal funding to their test scores.

What did they think would happen? Well, teachers started getting pressured to teach to the test, because most states can't afford to lose their federal funds, not when the first thing gutted every election is education (right behind mental health). So people like subby can only blame themselves. You can't have standardized testing tied to funding without the mess we've got today.

/end rant
//but I'm still pissed
 
2012-07-18 06:13:35 AM  
Heh. All the teachers in here are like "wah wah it's not a proper test, examiners are on the take, proves nothing" etc

But they wouldn't say the same thing about the tests a doctor must pass before being allowed to treat their ill child.
 
2012-07-18 06:14:38 AM  

ShannonKW: I taught SAT test prep for a year. The first thing they do is is have you sit the test. It's reasonable. How are you supposed to coach people on material you haven't mastered?

That said, it's not clear how subby got his tagline out of TFA. This isn't a case of union biatching. The problem appears to be that there simply aren't enough qualified people willing to teach public school students under the new standards.

It puts me in mind of how pompous and unrealistic people can be when they fantasize about the sort of teachers that should be educating school children. Apparently, the clouds must part and Almighty God must shiat out a sufficient cluster of selfless, impeccably behaved paragons of knowledge in a cloud of butterflies and rainbows; and these imaginary angels must then set to work for whatever wage the voters deign to pay, suffer whatever indignity their blameless charges dish out, and in general eat shiat like it's their favorite dish.

Good luck with that.

/glad I don't have children *knocks wood*


You are now my personal hero. Love that definition of a teacher.
 
2012-07-18 06:20:45 AM  

towatchoverme: [...] if you stay in the profession you're either a saint (and there are a lot of them), an idiot (some of them, too) or a purdyfile


This is the heart of the problem with public education in the states, at least where personnel is concerned. We rely on the presence of saints, and there simply aren't enough of them to go around. What we have left to fill the gaps I wouldn't call "idiots," but simply unfortunate people whose best career option was a shiatty job like teaching school. As to pedos, I think it's rather like embezzling -- not many people go onto banking with the object of skimming the till, but there are plenty who would yield to temptation if a particularly sweet opportunity came by and it looked like they could get away with it.

Ultimately the public are expecting a level of quality that cannot be had for the amount of money they are willing to pay, and that probably can't be had for any amount of money -- there simply aren't enough saintly educators available.
 
2012-07-18 06:21:17 AM  

puffy999: I'd love to know more about the tests.

Teachers SHOULD know the material that they're going to teach to a reasonable degree (and, no, that doesn't necessarily mean they should know answers to trivia questions offhand). Conversely, I don't see why any middle school math teacher should have to score 70% or better on a test of differential equations questions. Yes, it'd be nice, but shouldn't keep people from areas where they're qualified.


The reason middle school math teacher candidates have to pass a test on differential equations is because they are attempting to become certified in 7-12 grades which means they must be able to teach math on all levels in between. Now if there was a certificate for just 7th grade or just 12 grade then the tests would change accordingly. However, imagine the pigeon hole in which you have placed yourself by limiting your certificate.
 
2012-07-18 06:22:58 AM  
Er, no. I assume the years and years of schooling a doctor must endure, plus certification, plus their years of experience on the job qualifies them to treat my kid.
 
2012-07-18 06:25:00 AM  

ShannonKW: It puts me in mind of how pompous and unrealistic people can be when they fantasize about the sort of teachers that should be educating school children. Apparently, the clouds must part and Almighty God must shiat out a sufficient cluster of selfless, impeccably behaved paragons of knowledge in a cloud of butterflies and rainbows; and these imaginary angels must then set to work for whatever wage the voters deign to pay, suffer whatever indignity their blameless charges dish out, and in general eat shiat like it's their favorite dish.


Well part of it is because we used to have that, to an extent. Teaching used to be one of two "acceptable" jobs for women to have (nursing being the other). This lead to an excess of skilled labour. Since that was all they could do, they would do it for less money. Well that's not the case anymore, we let girls do as they please and indeed many of them can look at paychecks and compare numbers and decide another career path is a better idea.

So market conditions have changed and people don't want to deal with it. That is part of the problem. There's more, but that is part of where the attitude comes from.
 
2012-07-18 06:25:36 AM  

AirForceVet: Let's put this bluntly. If you want teachers highly qualified to teach complex subjects like chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, biology, information technology, etc.,


Really?
 
2012-07-18 06:28:54 AM  

pianomom: However, imagine the pigeon hole in which you have placed yourself by limiting your certificate.


I don't see why one should not be able to "upgrade" or "improve" their certification if one so chooses after not doing well on certain parts of the test. If they can't do that for some reason (say, you're stuck with your first certification test result), well, that's something that we should change in the law. I mean, I'd rather be pigeon holed than a passenger pigeon, myself.

And we had to go to the local college to study differential equations while in high school. Many schools don't offer anything beyond first-year calculus. And there was, literally, only one teacher qualified in our district to teach it (because it was actually a college-credit course if one completed the year and passed certain tests).
 
2012-07-18 06:32:05 AM  

sycraft: ShannonKW: It puts me in mind of how pompous and unrealistic people can be when they fantasize about the sort of teachers that should be educating school children. Apparently, the clouds must part and Almighty God must shiat out a sufficient cluster of selfless, impeccably behaved paragons of knowledge in a cloud of butterflies and rainbows; and these imaginary angels must then set to work for whatever wage the voters deign to pay, suffer whatever indignity their blameless charges dish out, and in general eat shiat like it's their favorite dish.

Well part of it is because we used to have that, to an extent. Teaching used to be one of two "acceptable" jobs for women to have (nursing being the other). This lead to an excess of skilled labour. Since that was all they could do, they would do it for less money. Well that's not the case anymore, we let girls do as they please and indeed many of them can look at paychecks and compare numbers and decide another career path is a better idea.

So market conditions have changed and people don't want to deal with it. That is part of the problem. There's more, but that is part of where the attitude comes from.


I think the ever increasing attitude that male teachers are sexual predators doesn't help the situation, either.
 
2012-07-18 06:32:06 AM  
I must pass a regular, standard exam same one given to my students every year to KEEP my current employment, never mind be authorized to teach on the subject. Test questions are from a pool of many thousands that are re-worded constantly so memorizing is impossible. I'm all on board with everyone else being in the same boat as me for the past 21 years.
 
2012-07-18 06:38:01 AM  
And I graduated HS 10 years ago. I know that former calculus teacher was looking for work, and I honestly assume by now the calculus class is held at the local college (while free to students, the district reimbursed the college in similar scenarios when I was in school). Heck a year after I left, they cut the credit requirements for graduation (due to budget cuts) to the lowest levels since the 80s.
 
2012-07-18 06:38:35 AM  

puffy999: pianomom: However, imagine the pigeon hole in which you have placed yourself by limiting your certificate.

I don't see why one should not be able to "upgrade" or "improve" their certification if one so chooses after not doing well on certain parts of the test. If they can't do that for some reason (say, you're stuck with your first certification test result), well, that's something that we should change in the law. I mean, I'd rather be pigeon holed than a passenger pigeon, myself.

And we had to go to the local college to study differential equations while in high school. Many schools don't offer anything beyond first-year calculus. And there was, literally, only one teacher qualified in our district to teach it (because it was actually a college-credit course if one completed the year and passed certain tests).


I guess we are spoiled by having most public schools in my state (Ohio) offering anywhere from general math classes to algebra to calculus to trigonometry to AP math courses. And the one Praxis content area test that math teacher candidates must pass includes a little of all these areas.

I agree that being able to add endorsements to initial licensure should be offered; however, my point was that if you were only certified in one grade level, then you have pigeon holed yourself and this lowering any job prospects while taking additional classes that would lead to further endorsements or the ability to teach other grades. The one teacher preparatory test that is taken is usually the Praxis content area which should cover a little bit of several areas within your content area.
 
2012-07-18 06:46:12 AM  
Someone keep repeating "Hey, you're lucky to have a job in this economy!" over and over again until they just don't care if they get fired or not because if they're lucky to have such a shiat job then why bother living.
 
2012-07-18 06:51:47 AM  
I think elected officials need to pass a test demonstrating their knowledge of the Constitution as well as the subject matter of bills on which they are voting.
 
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