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(City Journal)   The latest institution that has gone full Paterno is the California Teachers Association   (city-journal.org) divider line 25
    More: Sick, California Teachers Association, Joe Paterno, Teachers Association, Los Angeles Unified School District, Santa Barbara, Congressional Progressive Caucus, average cost, administrative law judge  
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10212 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Jul 2012 at 10:46 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-17 09:35:48 AM
5 votes:
From the linked article, it seems they removed the guy from the classroom the very day they were notified by police.

The district now needs to go through a process which will actually terminate his employment.

Why are we outraged again?

In Subby's world, any time a teacher is accused of anything, he/she gets fired immediately, whether or not an investigation reveals any evidence of wrongdoing. No thanks.
2012-07-17 11:42:13 AM
3 votes:

iaazathot: If the local area law enforcement refused to act, then there is the real problem, imo. Arrest the guy, then the school district, I am sure could have terminated him upon conviction. They could have suspended him during trial.

No doubt, this is a farked up situation.


He was suspended immediately and it looks like he was fired before being convicted as well.

People trying to use this to attack workers' rights are almost as sick as he is.
2012-07-17 03:32:36 PM
2 votes:

cc_rider: This article has nothing to do with protecting children from sexual abuse. It's about wanting to take away what someone paid into for so many years, without due process.


This. The anti-union folks are painting this as "FOR THE CHILDREN!" when it's, in fact, to remove certain protections, such as due process, given to teachers and protected by their union.

We're so anxious, so very anxious, to begin mob rule. We cheer when we torture our own citizens. We cheer when we assassinate our own citizens in other countries. We cheer when we castigate folks accused of a crime, long before they're tried (and long, long before we discover their actual innocence.) Those who want you to conform are eager, nay, excited, at the prospect of exploiting fear to push their ability to punish you, to shame you, on whispers, rumors, or accusations, and damn the need for proof, process, or oversight.

It's disturbing.
2012-07-17 02:54:15 PM
2 votes:

Joe Blowme: cc_rider: Meh. Just the right-wing using a horrific and extreme case to spew more hatred for teachers and public schools. Nothing to see here, move along.

Tell that to the victims asshat


Joe Blowme: cc_rider: Meh. Just the right-wing using a horrific and extreme case to spew more hatred for teachers and public schools. Nothing to see here, move along.

Tell that to the victims asshat


First of all, this guy was removed from the classroom and fired immediately as soon as the abuse allegations came to light. The earlier complaint did not involve any kind of abuse, so this wasn't a Penn State thing where everybody knew about sexual and covered it up. I absolutely agree a school must act immediately to protect students.

The point was, they are using the most shocking and horrific of abuse cases, and playing on emotion to try and justify taking away a person's pension without due process. Without even waiting to see if the person is charged, never mind convicted of the crime, and they used the worst example they could find.

Sometimes, people are falsely accused. remember the McMartin preschool trial? Link

Teacher cleared of molestation charges

Former Georgia Teacher Acquitted of Child Molestation Charges

This article has nothing to do with protecting children from sexual abuse. It's about wanting to take away what someone paid into for so many years, without due process. Asshat.
2012-07-17 02:25:55 PM
2 votes:
No one has mentioned that Larry Sand (the author of TFA) is an anti-union hack? Fark, I am disappoint.

Anyway, due-process rights are important for teachers, and unions are the only thing standing between due-process and the ability to fire without cause as soon as a teacher makes enough money that you want to put them out to pasture. Anyone with half a brain cell and/or any legal experience knows that age/wage discrimination suits are next-to-impossible to win, therefore the due-process rights afforded to teachers by their unions are one of the last things that makes the profession somewhat reasonable.

BTW...EDUCATORS should be in charge of education policy, not politicians & corporate influences. After all, they're the ones that actually know what they're doing.

Stuff like this is why unions are NECESSARY in the education profession. One false claim by a manipulative student could end someone's career for life if due-process protections are weakened. School administrators that DO THEIR JOB prevent situations such as these, and take all accusations seriously, following up with appropriate investigation and reporting...however they do NOT try these people in the court of public opinion, which is a career-killer regardless of their guilt or innocence.
2012-07-17 10:56:32 AM
2 votes:
I don't get why this is so hard. The cover is always 10,000 times worse for PR then the crime.

If you turn the mutt over to the police first thing you're a hero. If you don't then you'll get lumped in with them.

I work for an ISP. If I discover one of the users sending or receiving child porn. I'm going first to the police. Second to my boss to explain why the police are coming.
2012-07-17 10:20:53 AM
2 votes:

larrycot: From the linked article, it seems they removed the guy from the classroom the very day they were notified by police.

The district now needs to go through a process which will actually terminate his employment.

Why are we outraged again?


Here's why.

And here's why.

"Nadine Martinez Rodriguez, a former student of Berndt's, spoke to CBS2 about how school officials didn't listen when she complained about him. Rodriguez remembers that he often kept his hands in his lap and and a jar of vaseline in his desk. "When I first saw the news about Mr. Berndt getting arrested, I thought 'Wow,' " she said to CBS2. "It just took 22 years for him to get caught."

Basically, the LA school district, the teachers union, the DA's office and the sheriff's department spent a good couple of decades looking the other way when this guy was being a sick fark right there in the classroom.
2012-07-18 09:45:22 PM
1 votes:
SubBass49: 1. Giving teachers a livable salary (based on their cost-of-living in their area) shouldn't even be something we're debating (yes, I said it before, I'm saying it again.) If I made this money in, let's say, Oklahoma, I'd be fine. I live in Southern California. Wages at this point in my career should support a teacher in a lifestyle that's not one paycheck away from living out of my car.

2. I don't defend unions that do what the LA and NYC unions did. However, they are the exception to the rule. If administrators do THEIR JOBS and document issues with teachers, it is very rare that a bad teacher remains in a school. Tenure doesn't prevent firing, it just prevents firing WITHOUT CAUSE. Unions only argue that administrators show cause to fire someone, not an unreasonable request, do you not agree?


Ugh. You're not getting it. The reality is that the system can't afford to pay teachers more because it's tied to property tax revenues. It's not about what's right or fair, it's about what is affordable. Public service jobs are tied to tax revenues. I was trying to lead you down the path that the system is broken (and I hinted at it) since only homeowners are the ones stuck paying. Perhaps it's to everyone's benefit if COLA increases are included with the teacher salaries and tax revenues were no longer tied to property taxes but sales or income taxes as a healthy system that doesn't push poor students through for fear of bankrupting the system is a benefit to the state.

Tenure makes it difficult to fire teachers...Period. Not just without cause, but period. The system is tilted too far in favor of the teacher's unions and that's something you're not willing to admit but I understand why you'd defend the system.

I
2012-07-18 07:18:55 AM
1 votes:

foxyshadis: So what do you want? Private schools that sprung up after voucher-fever crested have been shown to be even worse, on average. The best and most expensive ones are better, since they can hire dedicated, passionate staff and pay them what they're worth, just like the best and most expensive public schools are better than the rest... but all that does is stratify education even further into haves and have-nots. You want minimum-wagers fired from McDonalds to pass out tests and assign reading they can't even comprehend, just to save money? Or if that's not cheap enough, how about illegals who can't even speak the language working for a few bucks a day. Or do you want to enslave the current class of teachers into working for lower wages, but make sure that they can't quit in droves, as they do whenever that happens, which ultimately only hurts the kids? You can't very well demonize them for not being passionate enough to work for nothing when you work for money yourself.

Seriously, point to a concrete position and solution, not just the constant railing that what's in place is bad.


1. Reduce teacher pay, cut the number of administrators (in some districts, teachers with tenure can become administrators at a pay grade that someone can do for much less), fire the poor teachers, increase the number of teachers. The ones that want to teach will do so because they love it and we'll all be better off for it. Don't tell me we wouldn't get teachers as there's growth in the field and plenty of kids going to college for teaching.
2. Hold kids back a grade if they can't read, write, speak English, or perform basic math. Stop shuffling kids that can't through the system because the district can't afford it (this is fairly common...google the study that the Los Angeles school district did on this very issue). It's no secret that large numbers of kids that DO go to college end up taking remedial classes to cover what they should have learned in high school.
3. Raise the standards. Fewer multiple guess test, more essays that will help to teach critical thought. My son graduated high school from a good school district....and guess how many term papers he had to write in 4 years? 3. When I went to high school I'd have 3 per term...minimum. Of course, it takes time to read and grade term papers.

Of course, the teacher unions wouldn't allow this because it wouldn't be good for teacher pay...but it's what would be best for the students.

The point of the graphic was to show that our poor performance in education is NOT a money issue. The problem is that the largest part of any district's budget by far is teacher salaries. Since many districts are in the red, cutting the salaries is the only realistic solution. Unfortunately, the unions won't allow it...and will deal with layoffs of junior teachers rather than cutting pay across the board. Ultimately the students are the ones that suffer with larger classroom sizes, easier tests (because grading takes more time with more students), and less attention when they need help. The bottom line is that teacher's unions have grown far too powerful at the expense of student education...and the expense of our future as a nation as we're unable to compete with other countries.
2012-07-18 04:12:56 AM
1 votes:

slayer199: TimonC346: Sure, but the stark difference between being a teacher and how important it is directly benefitting a society? Come on man. Music is amazing, but a Masters doesn't assure that In the same way researching how to teach.

And actually, you are statistically incorrect. A higher level of education, at least by averages, does beg a higher salary.

Benefit to society determining pay is not a good argument. If that's the case then police (who have one of the crappiest jobs on the planet...and I know, I was one) should make 4 times what they make. However, public service employees (which is what a teacher is) are not working in a free market where skills and education determine pay. They are working on a fixed budget that's ever declining due to the housing market collapse. So what happens? Teaches don't want to take pay cuts across the board so what happens is that teachers without tenure get laid off. The end result is fewer teachers with more students in the classroom. Take a look at Detroit (which is one of the worst cases). They will have a minimum of 31 students and a maximum of 61 students this next school year. How does that benefit the students?

Additionally, we spend more on education than every country on the planet and get less return. Why? Teacher pay, benefits, and onerous rules on firing crappy teachers.

This graphic should explain that we're NOT getting more bang for the buck. The reason we aren't is that the teacher unions work to benefit teachers, NOT education.


So what do you want? Private schools that sprung up after voucher-fever crested have been shown to be even worse, on average. The best and most expensive ones are better, since they can hire dedicated, passionate staff and pay them what they're worth, just like the best and most expensive public schools are better than the rest... but all that does is stratify education even further into haves and have-nots. You want minimum-wagers fired from McDonalds to pass out tests and assign reading they can't even comprehend, just to save money? Or if that's not cheap enough, how about illegals who can't even speak the language working for a few bucks a day. Or do you want to enslave the current class of teachers into working for lower wages, but make sure that they can't quit in droves, as they do whenever that happens, which ultimately only hurts the kids? You can't very well demonize them for not being passionate enough to work for nothing when you work for money yourself.

Seriously, point to a concrete position and solution, not just the constant railing that what's in place is bad.
2012-07-18 04:02:48 AM
1 votes:

cc_rider: It's about wanting to take away what someone paid into for so many years, without due process.


This is the most important part. Teachers pay into a 403(b), which is almost the same as a 401(k), imagine if someone could take your 401(k) away if you're convicted of any kind of crime, from speeding to fighting to child rape. It's an unprecedented and unconstitutional law.

He can be forced to use it in reparations to victims if a court so orders, that is fine and sounds like justice to me; but to outright take money that is legally his, not for the victims but for the general fun, and by extension threaten the savings that is legally every teacher's, is absolutely asinine. This is nothing more than anti-union thugs attempting to commit the same crimes that they constantly insist unions do, and two wrongs most certainly do not make a right.
2012-07-18 02:51:17 AM
1 votes:

TimonC346: Sure, but the stark difference between being a teacher and how important it is directly benefitting a society? Come on man. Music is amazing, but a Masters doesn't assure that In the same way researching how to teach.

And actually, you are statistically incorrect. A higher level of education, at least by averages, does beg a higher salary.


Benefit to society determining pay is not a good argument. If that's the case then police (who have one of the crappiest jobs on the planet...and I know, I was one) should make 4 times what they make. However, public service employees (which is what a teacher is) are not working in a free market where skills and education determine pay. They are working on a fixed budget that's ever declining due to the housing market collapse. So what happens? Teaches don't want to take pay cuts across the board so what happens is that teachers without tenure get laid off. The end result is fewer teachers with more students in the classroom. Take a look at Detroit (which is one of the worst cases). They will have a minimum of 31 students and a maximum of 61 students this next school year. How does that benefit the students?

Additionally, we spend more on education than every country on the planet and get less return. Why? Teacher pay, benefits, and onerous rules on firing crappy teachers.

This graphic should explain that we're NOT getting more bang for the buck. The reason we aren't is that the teacher unions work to benefit teachers, NOT education.
2012-07-17 09:50:58 PM
1 votes:

TimonC346: Yeah, 75k sounds about right for someone with 10+ years of experience and a Masters degree. It isn't wealth, but investing back in school means more student loans which most people already have enough of. Plus, if you live in LA, 75k is chump change.


If you want to make more, go into a different profession. Nobody is FORCING anyone to become teachers...and the pay scale is well-known. If you count the time-off, they make more on an hourly basis (even IF you count the time grading papers, etc) than the average citizen. Your argument that education guarantees a certain income is utterly ludicrous. Hell, I want to be a musician or a writer...if I have a master's degree does it guarantee me $75k?

FYI, Median income is $50k.
2012-07-17 07:23:19 PM
1 votes:
Everything SubBass49 said. Only slightly less snarky.

And for the guy quipping about teaching being part time, you're plain incorrect. Teachers can be found working 10 hour days often. Most teachers work incredible overtime without overtime pay. If you want to play the 'But there are lazy teachers!' card you can, but it woefully misrepresents the truth. There are lazy asses in every profession, that doesn't eliminate the need for general labour protection.

And don't pull the 'Summers off' bullshiat. That shiat is tired, and inaccurate.
2012-07-17 05:05:16 PM
1 votes:

SubBass49: No one has mentioned that Larry Sand (the author of TFA) is an anti-union hack? Fark, I am disappoint.

Anyway, due-process rights are important for teachers, and unions are the only thing standing between due-process and the ability to fire without cause as soon as a teacher makes enough money that you want to put them out to pasture. Anyone with half a brain cell and/or any legal experience knows that age/wage discrimination suits are next-to-impossible to win, therefore the due-process rights afforded to teachers by their unions are one of the last things that makes the profession somewhat reasonable.

BTW...EDUCATORS should be in charge of education policy, not politicians & corporate influences. After all, they're the ones that actually know what they're doing.

Stuff like this is why unions are NECESSARY in the education profession. One false claim by a manipulative student could end someone's career for life if due-process protections are weakened. School administrators that DO THEIR JOB prevent situations such as these, and take all accusations seriously, following up with appropriate investigation and reporting...however they do NOT try these people in the court of public opinion, which is a career-killer regardless of their guilt or innocence.


Nice Straw Man.

Teacher's unions exist to protect teachers (pay, benefits, etc), not promote education. All your "due process" does is protect BAD teachers from being fired. This entire law was about shortening the process to fire a teacher and apparently you're against that because of an irrational fear that good or high-paid teachers would be fired.
2012-07-17 02:26:49 PM
1 votes:

Great Odins Raven: TimonC346: It never ceases to amaze me that there is such an effective propaganda machine against people who make such little money that

They have great pay and outstanding benefits, even for California. And even more so considering its only part time work.


Part time work? Really? Please sign up to teach if it's so great. You probably wouldn't last a full year.
2012-07-17 01:04:58 PM
1 votes:
Meh. Just the right-wing using a horrific and extreme case to spew more hatred for teachers and public schools. Nothing to see here, move along.
2012-07-17 12:03:16 PM
1 votes:

larrycot: From the linked article, it seems they removed the guy from the classroom the very day they were notified by police.

The district now needs to go through a process which will actually terminate his employment.

Why are we outraged again?

In Subby's world, any time a teacher is accused of anything, he/she gets fired immediately, whether or not an investigation reveals any evidence of wrongdoing. No thanks.


It's amazing what you would learn if you actually read the article.

It mentions that this would have only pertained to teachers and sexual abuse and would have stream-lined the process but the Union had it killed.

Apparently, YOU, larrycot, think it's ok for a union to make the firing process so convoluted as to be damned near impossible to remove criminals and poor teachers.

The article goes on to mention trying to fire 7 teachers. 4 were actually fired, 3 received substantial settlements and one was re-instated.

Average length for each case to be concluded: 5 years
Average cost for each case: $500,000.

So, larrycot, nice to see you support pedophiles, criminals and lousy teachers in the classroom all in the name of union solidarity and 'due process'.

As the head of the NEA said at its 2004 nation convention: 'I will worry about the children when the children start paying union dues.'
2012-07-17 12:01:01 PM
1 votes:
FTFA The high cost of firing teachers helps explain why the Los Angeles Unified School District simply paid Berndt a $40,000 severance rather than undertake the formal dismissal process, even though he's accused of the most despicable crimes against children. .... Even in the event of a false claim, no teacher would lose his job simply by being accused.

First the author gets all outraged because a teacher wasn't fired as a result of being accused, and then he says the legislation he supports would prevent teachers being fired as a result of being accused.

So it appears that the legislation he wants would result in precisely the situation he doesn't. Right. That's very clear,
2012-07-17 11:55:15 AM
1 votes:

OnlyM3: The state assembly, however, is a stronghold for the California Teachers Association, which strongly opposes SB 1530.

Teachers unions. Supporting rape in every state.

/// teachers need paid more, amiright?


Yeah, let's blame all teachers for this. Hell, we should just burn them.

It never ceases to amaze me that there is such an effective propaganda machine against people who make such little money that convinces everyone that they are bahillionairea who get away with whatever they want.
2012-07-17 11:22:33 AM
1 votes:

simrobert2001: Serioulsy, why are you people surprised that an orginization with strong political ties would be tempted to cover up the fact that they have employed a whack job?


Not an employee- a dues paying member. Without the union rules, the LAUSD would have removed and fired him long ago.
2012-07-17 11:05:21 AM
1 votes:

emersonbiggins: This guy will probably get off if he gets that one masturbating judge.



Unlikely. That Judge was a Republican. Beside, he was removed from the bench and disbarred.
2012-07-17 10:56:18 AM
1 votes:

Gulper Eel: larrycot: From the linked article, it seems they removed the guy from the classroom the very day they were notified by police.

The district now needs to go through a process which will actually terminate his employment.

Why are we outraged again?

Here's why.

And here's why.

"Nadine Martinez Rodriguez, a former student of Berndt's, spoke to CBS2 about how school officials didn't listen when she complained about him. Rodriguez remembers that he often kept his hands in his lap and and a jar of vaseline in his desk. "When I first saw the news about Mr. Berndt getting arrested, I thought 'Wow,' " she said to CBS2. "It just took 22 years for him to get caught."

Basically, the LA school district, the teachers union, the DA's office and the sheriff's department spent a good couple of decades looking the other way when this guy was being a sick fark right there in the classroom.


What in the proposed bill would have prevented that?
2012-07-17 10:55:33 AM
1 votes:
So don't keep a jar of Vasaline on your desk?
2012-07-17 07:55:29 AM
1 votes:
In before the "b-b-b-b-b-but priests".
 
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