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(The New York Times)   Ever wonder what happened to Dragon Technologies, the company that had "Siri-like" voice recognition software on the market almost a decade ago? The short answer? Goldman-Sachs fatally screwed them over   (nytimes.com) divider line 212
    More: Sad, Dragon Systems, diplomatic recognition, due diligence, Henry M. Paulson Jr., dot-com bubble, Goldman Sachs, financial advice  
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22291 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Jul 2012 at 2:25 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



212 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-07-16 06:47:24 PM  
Why is Goldman Sachs still in business?

Goddamn America is farked.
 
2012-07-16 06:55:59 PM  

guestguy: "A few days before that meeting, Mr. Wayner of Goldman told Ms. Baker that he would be away on vacation and couldn't make the session. He also said that he would be unable to call in and that it was pointless to send anybody else from Goldman because there wasn't time to catch up on the deal. It was at this meeting that L.& H. proposed shifting the $580 million deal from half stock and half cash to all stock. The Bakers, with their high-priced investment bankers M.I.A., agreed.

Later, after L.& H. collapsed, Mr. Wayner testified that the bank "did not form a point of view" as to whether an all-stock deal would be risky or advisable for the Bakers. He said he could not remember if it had crossed his mind to warn the Bakers about potential issues with an all-stock deal.

Two weeks after the initial agreement was reached, Mr. Wayner told Ms. Baker that he would be leaving the next day for another vacation. He would not participate in a conference call with L.& H.'s accounting firm, KPMG, that was set up to discuss any open questions about accounting and due diligence. Mr. Berzofsky of Goldman did participate but later acknowledged that he did not raise any concerns. The Bakers say they believed that all issues had been addressed.

Mr. Wayner was still on vacation on March 27, when Dragon's board met to take a final vote on the proposed acquisition. This time, Mr. Fine and Mr. Smith of Goldman attended the meeting, and Mr. Wayner called in from Argentina. No one from Goldman gave a presentation, but minutes from the meeting, taken by Dragon's outside lawyers, indicate that the Goldman bankers expressed confidence that the combination of Dragon and L.& H. would produce a market leader. The board voted unanimously to accept the $580 million all-stock deal."

WTF?! You're paying this guy $5 million to advise you and he takes 2 vacations within 2 weeks of each other...which just happen to coincide with critical meetings concerning the deal? That right there should have ...



Well, if I had 5M I would go on vacation too! A man has to have his priorities in order.
 
2012-07-16 06:56:37 PM  

sparkeyjames: They paid Goldman Sachs to advise them and Goldman Sachs failed miserably.



the question is, how much to GS actually liable for in a deal like this ? For the entire value of the whole company ?
 
2012-07-16 07:10:54 PM  
I'll never forget the story of a guy in his early 20's who worked for and accounting firm in London was so stressed out that he committed suicide. The firm ended up billing the guys parents for twenty thousands dollars because they had to hire someone else to finish up his work. The people from accounting and banking firms rape their customers as well as their employees.
 
2012-07-16 07:18:45 PM  

dbaggins: sparkeyjames: They paid Goldman Sachs to advise them and Goldman Sachs failed miserably.


the question is, how much to GS actually liable for in a deal like this ? For the entire value of the whole company ?


Considering that the technology from Dragon was bought by another company from bankruptcy and is now worth billions
I'd say yes.
 
2012-07-16 07:23:07 PM  

dbaggins: the question is, how much to GS actually liable for in a deal like this ? For the entire value of the whole company ?


Goldman is liable for whatever the jury says they're liable for.

The plaintiff is asking for a one BILLION dollars. Given Goldman's gross negligence, they could get it. I'm pretty sure Dragon owned the key patents in this industry. Considering that patents last 20 years, many of them are probably still very very valuable today. Perhaps a lot more valuable today. Voice dictation never saw a huge mindshare on PC, but it's big and getting bigger on smart phones. Given that mot newer smart phones will need a license for those patents, a billion doesn't seem far fetched at all.

In reality, it probably won't get to a jury award. Goldman is so screwed here that they'll probably settle. The plaintiff probably wants money now and doesn't want to wait through a decade of appeals, so they'll probably accept a reasonable settlement. What's reasonable for a billion dollar asset? My guess would be 200 to 350 million, with the standard third going to their lawyers. Not a billion, but enough to buy a solid gold house and a rocket car.
 
2012-07-16 07:24:28 PM  
There's a million miles between speech recognition dictation software and speech recognition that can understand what you are saying...

... just sayin
 
2012-07-16 07:24:35 PM  

sparkeyjames: Considering that the technology from Dragon was bought by another company from bankruptcy and is now worth billions
I'd say yes.


I would think you have to show that GS knew that at the time. It seems to me they knew the deal had problems (hence the vacations) but that wouldn't be enough.

It is a good news article, and has a lot of good journalism in it, but it is still not the whole story. I'm guessing the court case is keeping some info back at this point.
 
2012-07-16 07:36:31 PM  

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: Their software sucked. Still does. If the slowest typist in my office can outperform your software, it's not ready for the market.


I tried it out many years ago. It was crap. My dog could understand me more than that software.
 
2012-07-16 07:43:20 PM  
Some company using the "Dragon" name still sells speech-recognition software (for transcribing, anyway). It works quite well. I used it as recently as a few months ago.

It doesn't work great right out of the box. You have to "train" it to recognize your particular speech patterns.
 
2012-07-16 08:33:21 PM  

LMark: Amos Quito: Lot of antisemitism in this thread...

huh?


What, you aren't used to him by now?

i.imgur.com
 
2012-07-16 08:37:12 PM  

Russ1642: NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: Their software sucked. Still does. If the slowest typist in my office can outperform your software, it's not ready for the market.

I tried it out many years ago. It was crap. My dog could understand me more than that software.


What you two are arguing is akin to saying it's foolhardy to try and fly across the Atlantic because you saw the Wright Brothers give it a go and that thing only got a few feet off the ground.

/things get better
 
2012-07-16 08:40:56 PM  

Russ1642: NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: Their software sucked. Still does. If the slowest typist in my office can outperform your software, it's not ready for the market.

I tried it out many years ago. It was crap. My dog could understand me more than that software.


But can he type?
 
2012-07-16 08:46:17 PM  
I used to work at Dragon so I am getting a kick....

/The Bakers are awesome people
//Go get em!
 
2012-07-16 09:10:49 PM  

corn-bread: The client in this case made two unforgivable Wall Street errors:
1) They dared be a "small fry" and not have enough money;
2) They dared try to take an industry position that was in competition to one of GS's larger clients.

Even the most minimum levels of due diligence would have had their banker checking GS's internal market research. At that point he would have found that L&G was a joke.

The fact that their own primary banker missed not one but *two* meetings implies he did the above and knew the deal was bad news.
The fact that GS said they should hire an accountant in my mind indicates they were trying to kick the can down the road and make someone else break the bad news.

All in all, Goldman should hang for this. Of course if I'm their lawyer there is no way I let this one go to trial.
Look for a quiet settlement right around Halloween.


Nonsense. These people made a bad deal and are trying to blame their bankers for their bad decision/bad luck. Advisors do not have perfect foresight or knowledge. And one arm of a bank deciding not to invest in a company doesn't necessarily indicate that they know the company is fraudulent.

Smells like a typical nuisance lawsuit, and reads like we're getting the biased NYT viewpoint. Let's hope GS takes them to the cleaners in the countersuit.
 
2012-07-16 09:22:39 PM  

jayhawk88: "Siri like", lol. Dragon was crap. "Oh hey, spend an hour reading War and Peace to train our software, and you'll get an astounding 80% accuracy rate! You'll end up spending 5 hours doing a task you could have done in 30 minutes if you'd just learn to type, but hey, voice!"


Interesting that my wife had a much smoother experience with, last time she mentioned it years back, over 96% accuracy. Maybe your computer just doesn't like you? Have you tried giving it a name and petting it reassuringly?

/or maybe my wife's accent or rhythm was just a better fit for their algorithms. But making friends with your computer surely couldn't hurt!
 
2012-07-16 09:24:14 PM  

adjective: It almost makes one wonder what voice recognition technology would be like today if Dragon never got screwed and had continued to innovate.


Nuance didn't do badly with what they got from Dragon. Until now they've primarily focused on the medical transcription industry, but they've got some pretty solid product lines (primarily acquired by merging or acquiring damn near every other speech recognition company).
 
2012-07-16 09:31:13 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Let's hope GS takes them to the cleaners in the countersuit.


Let's hope you go fark yourself.
 
2012-07-16 09:33:22 PM  

Degenz: If only there were some way to learn a method of inputting thousands of keystrokes without having to stop and look at each one as you enter them.

/yea, i know. some people are legitimately disabled and need VR. But most are just TOO farkING LAZY to learn how to type.


So if you're, say, hospital IT moving to an electronic medical record, would you rather spend months/years of lost productivity giving older doctors typing lessons only for them to max out at 50-80 words per minute (where your average typist will plateau at), or buy a good speech recognition system and have them dictating at 150 wpm almost out of the box?

With good software and good hardware, you can get a two to threefold speed improvement over typing.
 
2012-07-16 09:34:06 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: corn-bread: The client in this case made two unforgivable Wall Street errors:
1) They dared be a "small fry" and not have enough money;
2) They dared try to take an industry position that was in competition to one of GS's larger clients.

Even the most minimum levels of due diligence would have had their banker checking GS's internal market research. At that point he would have found that L&G was a joke.

The fact that their own primary banker missed not one but *two* meetings implies he did the above and knew the deal was bad news.
The fact that GS said they should hire an accountant in my mind indicates they were trying to kick the can down the road and make someone else break the bad news.

All in all, Goldman should hang for this. Of course if I'm their lawyer there is no way I let this one go to trial.
Look for a quiet settlement right around Halloween.

Nonsense. These people made a bad deal and are trying to blame their bankers for their bad decision/bad luck. Advisors do not have perfect foresight or knowledge. And one arm of a bank deciding not to invest in a company doesn't necessarily indicate that they know the company is fraudulent.

Smells like a typical nuisance lawsuit, and reads like we're getting the biased NYT viewpoint. Let's hope GS takes them to the cleaners in the countersuit.


How about we hope justice is served, shall we? Is that too much to ask?
 
2012-07-16 09:34:46 PM  

jafiwam: Nope.

Because I am not a retard and can type. Heck, I can type faster than I can talk. People who can't type should stay away from computers.

If I liked to talk, I wouldn't be working with computers, I'd be a salesweasel or something instead.


Reminds me of John Dvorak's rant against Compaq when they decided to make audio a standard feature on all their PCs.
 
2012-07-16 09:48:38 PM  

jafiwam: Heck, I can type faster than I can talk.


Unless you have a serious speech disorder, I would highly doubt that. Average human speaking speed is roughly the same as world-record typist speed, and far easier and more comfortable to maintain.

Granted, various prediction and completion algorithms can improve the speed of typing by reducing the number of keystrokes required to enter a word.

adjective: It almost makes one wonder what voice recognition technology would be like today if Dragon never got screwed and had continued to innovate.


I don't understand this. Whether or not the deal had been profitable, the Bakers were out of the Dragon business. And the company that ended up holding their IP, Nuance, is innovating - they are world leaders in speech recognition technology and have been making continuous improvements.

It's not like the IP went to waste - the only tragedy here is that the Bakers didn't profit from selling their company.
 
2012-07-16 10:01:44 PM  

Glendale: rumpelstiltskin: I'm thinking 32 year olds at GS don't take two vacations right in a row like that, where they can't be reached for anything. He was ordered to go on vacation, so that he wouldn't be available in case Dragon asked him a question that might scuttle the deal. The only questions are, who at GS ordered him to avoid Dragon, and why? Did someone think the deal wouldn't go through if LH fell through? Who's bonus depended on that deal being done?

Maybe someone was banking on Dragon's assets being sold at auction to a larger client?


Never attribute to treachery what can be adequately explained by short-sighted greed and laziness.
 
2012-07-16 10:09:06 PM  
A lot of the original research on this was done, of course, by IBM. I have the original packaging for ViaVoice for Linux c. 2003 still on my bookshelf, which I got for the purpose of experiencing what our web-based product was like to use for a blind person.

Loads of respect for Dragon, tech was years ahead of its time.

/ Comp Sci Ph.D
 
2012-07-16 10:26:14 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Smells like a typical nuisance lawsuit, and reads like we're getting the biased NYT viewpoint. Let's hope GS takes them to the cleaners in the countersuit.


Eh. 2/10. You did get a bite or two.

If you were actually serious, I'd suggest that if you find a source that you suspect is biased, find another source rather than posting.

But you weren't, so I won't.
 
2012-07-16 10:41:06 PM  
Am I the only one who wants to take the Dragon guy, the hipster UBids.com guy, and the Free Credit Score.com band and throw them into a lion enclosure?

/And then add some bears.
 
2012-07-16 10:47:33 PM  

bdub77: Protip, folks: Never do business with Goldman Sachs unless you want to get screwed out of your money. Those guys are professional conmen.


Seriously; after what they did to Russia post-USSR, I could never understand why anyone would let those bastards within 500 feet of their money.
 
2012-07-16 10:59:07 PM  
Sum Dum Gai:

I don't understand this. Whether or not the deal had been profitable, the Bakers were out of the Dragon business. And the company that ended up holding their IP, Nuance, is innovating - they are world leaders in speech recognition technology and have been making continuous improvements.

It's not like the IP went to waste - the only tragedy here is that the Bakers didn't profit from selling their company./i

I believe TFA says that one of the stipulations of the sale/merger/disaster was that the Bakers would remain involved in research. Sounds like they hit a point where they cared more about the research than running a company and got hosed for it.
 
2012-07-16 11:01:52 PM  

Sum Dum Gai: Degenz: If only there were some way to learn a method of inputting thousands of keystrokes without having to stop and look at each one as you enter them.

/yea, i know. some people are legitimately disabled and need VR. But most are just TOO farkING LAZY to learn how to type.

So if you're, say, hospital IT moving to an electronic medical record, would you rather spend months/years of lost productivity giving older doctors typing lessons only for them to max out at 50-80 words per minute (where your average typist will plateau at), or buy a good speech recognition system and have them dictating at 150 wpm almost out of the box?

With good software and good hardware, you can get a two to threefold speed improvement over typing.


I know, it was a bad troll. But if your counter-argument is that it would help doctors then I hope someone doesn't cut off leg when what they meant to say was schmut da schmeg. Because it happens everyday, you know?
 
2012-07-16 11:07:46 PM  

mc6809e: Magorn:

SO in your twisted world what SHOULD Goildman have been doing if not Vetting the proposed merger partners? What were they doing for their $5 MILLION dollar fee?

They weren't being an accounting firm.

GS did the same thing to the Dragon people that it did with Mortgage-backed securities: they legally profited from someone else's deception and didn't give a shiat because they weren't legally required to give a shiat.


Goldman employees, retained as an investment adviser and manager, either advised their clients to take bad positions or directly chose bad positions for their clients, then took bets against those positions so that GS could benefit financially when they failed. In regards to the derivative and securities crisis, GS committed a fraud no more complex than that of a Traveler selling shoddy roofing to Alabama grandmothers.
 
2012-07-16 11:25:45 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo:

Nonsense. These people made a bad deal and are trying to blame their bankers for their bad decision/bad luck. Advisors do not have perfect foresight or knowledge. And one arm of a bank deciding not to invest in a company doesn't necessarily indicate that they know the company is fraudulent.

Smells like a typical nuisance lawsuit, and reads like we're getting the biased NYT viewpoint. Let's hope GS takes them to the cleaners in the countersuit.



Had GS been present at the meetings and been an active representative, then perhaps. I'd even agree with you if GS had been quiet, but had at least shared *with their goddamn client* the market research that they already had on hand. At least then GS's client would have had some notice.

And if you don't think that the advising / banking side of the house has access to all the data and reports gathered by the investing side, you don't know Goldman Sachs.

/$50 says at least one of L&H's board members was a Goldman client. If so, there was no way in hell they were going to bet against them.
 
2012-07-16 11:32:42 PM  

Russ1642: NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: Their software sucked. Still does. If the slowest typist in my office can outperform your software, it's not ready for the market.

I tried it out many years ago. It was crap. My dog could understand me more than that software.


As others have said, it's much, much better now. I picked up the Dragon iPhone app solely because it was free and I thought it'd be fun to play around with, and within an hour I was getting about 80wpm with it, with very few mistakes. It's crap for the first few minutes as it learns your voice, but after that it's pretty astonishing.

I can only touch type at around 50wpm and don't seem to improve no matter how much I practice, so it's pretty handy for work.
 
2012-07-16 11:38:28 PM  
Think about driving at 65mph and recording your day into a digital recorder, complete with folders, paragraphs and email. It worked for me. Version 9.
 
2012-07-16 11:42:19 PM  

Quantum Apostrophe: bdub77: Protip, folks: Never do business with Goldman Sachs unless you want to get screwed out of your money. Those guys are professional conmen.

Don't forget realtors.




Amen. Scoundrels gotta scoundrel. Thieves gotta thieve.

(Cream Rises, but most Turds Float!)

Bankers and Realtors, all are Floaters.
 
2012-07-17 01:24:07 AM  

Gaius: Madbassist1: I don't want to disagree with the FARK experts who say Dragon sucks, but I actually worked with it briefly a few years ago to integrate it with other software that I work with. If you can't type, have the right equipment, and speak in normal tones and cadence, it understands and transcribes what you say fine...and I'm talking about medical jargon here, kids. I won't let that stop the experts from going OMG THE SUXXORZ!!!!ELEVENTY!

This. I watched my doctor transcribe notes on her laptop, with 100% accuracy. I was blown away that Dragon could accurately recognize the medical terminology in the report.


Well it IS mostly Latin. Just because it sounds obscure and foreign to us (because we don't work with Latin day-in and day-out) doesn't take anything away from the fact that Latin is a fairly deterministic language, and the words always sound the way the letters would predict that they sound. That is actually a VERY easy thing for anybody--even a computer--to understand. That's why Latin is the universal language of the hard sciences.
 
2012-07-17 01:28:09 AM  
I saw the TV commercials for Dragon and wondered why they were blowing out this software on TV like sham-wows. Now I know: this is probably all the product the original inventors still had in inventory, that they still owned rights to. Selling this off is probably their whole nest egg after Goldman's debacle.
 
2012-07-17 02:35:11 AM  
Just installed 7 of these for Doctor transcriptions, the company is called Nuance NUAN nasdaq and doing fine against the tech sector.

I can admit their support is questionable and remote desktop is a nightmare with the product.
 
2012-07-17 02:56:37 AM  

Phelyx: Just installed 7 of these for Doctor transcriptions, the company is called Nuance NUAN nasdaq and doing fine against the tech sector.

I can admit their support is questionable and remote desktop is a nightmare with the product.


Oh, you mean that company that Goldman Sachs happened to own at the same time as Dragons? I'm sure it was just a coincidence they shot on to success after picking clean Dragons tech-riddled corpse while G-S execs laughed all the way to the bank. Just a crazy coincidence.
 
2012-07-17 04:31:32 AM  

Rincewind53: If I didn't think the NSA was reading any post containing the word "bomb" I would say that if what happens to the financial institutions at the end of Fight Club happened to Goldman Sachs, the world would be a better place. But because I do, I won't.


Don't be silly. The buildings were empty.
 
2012-07-17 06:32:25 AM  
Dragon works great for me. I've used it since 2007 version 9. Very high accuracy rate. It outshines other vr apps in being context sensitive about spelling of identical sounding words such as "where" and "wear".

I'm convinced that people who can't get it to work must mumble, lisp and drool a lot while speaking.

Like a guy driving a car that says "dammit this car sucks, it keeps running into things."
 
2012-07-17 06:52:12 AM  

Private_Citizen: Interesting and frightening read.

It disturbs me that all too often the people who have a great idea, work to develop that idea into a revolutionary product, then found a company to sell that product - end up having their work taken from them by people claiming to be "job creators".

We need more real capitalists, and far less vultures waiting to feed on them. More importantly, our society needs to value innovation more - and the ability to steal ideas less. Otherwise, the REAL innovators will stop bothering because they know some sociopath with the right connections will just steal their idea.


The vultures are the real capitalists. That's what capitalism is.
 
2012-07-17 07:29:02 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Debeo Summa Credo: Smells like a typical nuisance lawsuit, and reads like we're getting the biased NYT viewpoint. Let's hope GS takes them to the cleaners in the countersuit.

Eh. 2/10. You did get a bite or two.

If you were actually serious, I'd suggest that if you find a source that you suspect is biased, find another source rather than posting.

But you weren't, so I won't.


I'm absolutely serious. I do hope GS prevails. However I'm realistic to realize that GS realizes that the jury will probably contain at least a few of the type of idiots who we see in this thread, who thin that they were responsible for Russia's default, share all information between the merchant bank and investment bank (such sharing may have been illegal, btw), or "ordered" employees to go on vacation.

So they'll settle for some amount that the bakers do not deserve because of fears of a runaway jury.
 
2012-07-17 09:04:46 AM  
Doctors (mostly) adore the medical versions of Dragon Naturally Speaking. There's a big financial push for electronic health records but a lot of physicians don't type well. Even the ones that do type well have told me they do their job faster with Dragon; one of the stipulations for the government EHR subsidy is that physicians have to document a LOT more than they used to.

Until recently I was a network admin in a private practice of 104 doctors of varying specialties, and 80% of them used Dragon to dictate directly into our EHR product. Many used the stock microphone on a notebook with no issues.
 
2012-07-17 10:40:15 AM  

jayhawk88: "Siri like", lol. Dragon was crap.


If anything, it was at least as good as Siri.

/Siri brought nothing new to the table
 
2012-07-17 10:44:13 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Fish in a Barrel: Wouldn't Goldman's internal investments have been handled by the proprietary trading unit? Aren't they specifically barred, by law, from talking with the rest of the bank?

No, no. You don't understand. If one portion of the firm is privy to information that could be useful and it shares that information with another part of the firm it is acting unethically and should be sued/prosecuted. Conversely, if it doesn't share the information it is acting unethically and should be sued/prosecuted.

Just refer to this simple rule to help understanding : Goldman bad!


Funny, they never hesitated to share such information when it was beneficial to them.

But keep on defending people who would gladly put a knife in your throat for the $5 in your wallet if they could get away with it.
 
2012-07-17 10:48:32 AM  

Gaius: Madbassist1: I don't want to disagree with the FARK experts who say Dragon sucks, but I actually worked with it briefly a few years ago to integrate it with other software that I work with. If you can't type, have the right equipment, and speak in normal tones and cadence, it understands and transcribes what you say fine...and I'm talking about medical jargon here, kids. I won't let that stop the experts from going OMG THE SUXXORZ!!!!ELEVENTY!

This. I watched my doctor transcribe notes on her laptop, with 100% accuracy. I was blown away that Dragon could accurately recognize the medical terminology in the report.


I have a hard time believing this unless the doctor was doing very basic stuff. I would love to see Dragon be able to get things like mucus or mucous right, or a word like dysphagia or dysphasia correct. I want it to be able to pick out hypotension as opposed to hypertension when a doctor is just going at regular speed. A doctor would have to speak like this and really put an emphasis on the O and not the ER.
 
2012-07-17 10:53:36 AM  

Debeo Summa Credo: I'm absolutely serious. I do hope GS prevails. However I'm realistic to realize that GS realizes that the jury will probably contain at least a few of the type of idiots who we see in this thread, who thin that they were responsible for Russia's default, share all information between the merchant bank and investment bank (such sharing may have been illegal, btw), or "ordered" employees to go on vacation.

So they'll settle for some amount that the bakers do not deserve because of fears of a runaway jury.



Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?
 
2012-07-17 11:07:22 AM  
I'd be fine if GS loses the suit, but this con would have failed if the Dragon Board of Directors were even a bit more prudent.

I suck at reading comprehension, but it seems as though Dragon's BOD took the $580 million in stock because the weren't getting offers for anywhere near that amount from anyone else (red flag #1). They got greedy, wanted to rush the deal through, and took a stupid risk by ignoring the obvious second red flag of the 11th hour all-stock offer.
 
2012-07-17 12:02:33 PM  
Fines and jail time are not enough for Wall Street investment bankers. They should all be lined up and shot. Every breath they take is stolen from good people who deserve to breathe.
 
2012-07-17 12:09:12 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: The Jami Turman Fan Club: Debeo Summa Credo: Smells like a typical nuisance lawsuit, and reads like we're getting the biased NYT viewpoint. Let's hope GS takes them to the cleaners in the countersuit.

Eh. 2/10. You did get a bite or two.

If you were actually serious, I'd suggest that if you find a source that you suspect is biased, find another source rather than posting.

But you weren't, so I won't.

I'm absolutely serious. I do hope GS prevails. However I'm realistic to realize that GS realizes that the jury will probably contain at least a few of the type of idiots who we see in this thread, who thin that they were responsible for Russia's default, share all information between the merchant bank and investment bank (such sharing may have been illegal, btw), or "ordered" employees to go on vacation.

So they'll settle for some amount that the bakers do not deserve because of fears of a runaway jury.


And I'll ask you, once again, why you so desperately want GS to prevail when you (like everyone else in this thread) has NO IDEA whether they're guilty or not?
 
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