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(ABC)   A year after the Space Shuttle made its last flight, NASA employees still struggle to find work. I guess it does take a rocket scientist these days   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 68
    More: Sad, space shuttles, NASA, Space Coast, rocket scientist, Kennedy Space Center, information technology, government contractor, Workers Struggle  
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2428 clicks; posted to Geek » on 15 Jul 2012 at 2:50 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-15 12:14:29 PM  
These are the jobs outsourced to other countries by Obama. Hey buddy, can you spare a ride to the ISS?
 
2012-07-15 12:28:07 PM  
Maybe they should see if they could get jobs in the Chinese space program. Seems like they're more interested in manned space flight than the US at this point in time.
 
2012-07-15 12:36:15 PM  
Why wouldn't spaceX or virgin galactic be snapping these guys up like crazy? There's a wealth of knowledge and experience here for the picking, protocols that wouldn't need reinventing at great cost.
 
2012-07-15 12:48:11 PM  

Sim Tree: Why wouldn't spaceX or virgin galactic be snapping these guys up like crazy? There's a wealth of knowledge and experience here for the picking, protocols that wouldn't need reinventing at great cost.


It's still early in the commercial space race. They are developing their own ways of doing things...not how NASA did things.
 
2012-07-15 12:58:25 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Sim Tree: Why wouldn't spaceX or virgin galactic be snapping these guys up like crazy? There's a wealth of knowledge and experience here for the picking, protocols that wouldn't need reinventing at great cost.

It's still early in the commercial space race. They are developing their own ways of doing things...not how NASA did things.


They addressed it in the article - those programs aren't nearly as large as what NASA is running. They just don't need that many people.
 
2012-07-15 01:08:48 PM  

Lsherm: Darth_Lukecash: Sim Tree: Why wouldn't spaceX or virgin galactic be snapping these guys up like crazy? There's a wealth of knowledge and experience here for the picking, protocols that wouldn't need reinventing at great cost.

It's still early in the commercial space race. They are developing their own ways of doing things...not how NASA did things.

They addressed it in the article - those programs aren't nearly as large as what NASA is running. They just don't need that many people.


I wouldn't be surprised if businesses developing their own space crafts didn't tap NASA employees. I know there are several large corporations vowing to enter space and developing technology to do so. I think the Virgin Air guy is an example.
 
2012-07-15 01:14:26 PM  
Why would anyone pay $60K/y for some Educated American worker when you can get one in China for $20K/y?

(Thank a Republican)
 
2012-07-15 01:35:48 PM  
This is simply a geography problem for many of them. The unemployment rate for electrical engineers is roughly 4%. I imagine it's similar in other technical fields.
 
2012-07-15 01:53:42 PM  
I'd imagine they can get work in other fields, though having NASA on your resume probably makes many employers think you're over qualified.
 
2012-07-15 02:07:15 PM  

b2theory: imagine it's similar in other technical fields.


False.

TommyymmoT: I'd imagine they can get work in other fields, though having NASA on your resume probably makes many employers think you're over qualified.



You're only over qualified if you are from this country.
 
2012-07-15 02:28:12 PM  

EnviroDude: These are the jobs outsourced to other countries by Obama. Hey buddy, can you spare a ride to the ISS?


Mitt? Are you still on about Obama outsourcing jobs?

Don't like it? Steal his time machine.
 
2012-07-15 02:45:09 PM  

EnviroDude: These are the jobs outsourced to other countries by Obama. Hey buddy, can you spare a ride to the ISS?


It's not insulting because you believe it. You are indeed stupid enough to believe it. It's insulting because you expect everyone else to believe it. As if everyone is that stupid.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2010-09-29/news/2762260 4_ 1_anti-outsourcing-bill-move-jobs-tax-burden
 
2012-07-15 02:53:28 PM  
What NASA needs is some PR workers, to help Muslims feel good about themselves. Righ, Obama?
 
2012-07-15 02:58:26 PM  

Nemo's Brother: What NASA needs is some PR workers, to help Muslims feel good about themselves. Righ, Obama?


Again, Republicans do something and then say Obama did it.

It's not insulting because you believe it. You are stupid enough to believe it.

It's insulting because you think that everyone else should believe it. As if everyone else is that stupid.

http://www.wmfe.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=11715&news_iv_ctr l= 1041
 
2012-07-15 03:11:57 PM  

Sim Tree: Why wouldn't spaceX or virgin galactic be snapping these guys up like crazy? There's a wealth of knowledge and experience here for the picking, protocols that wouldn't need reinventing at great cost.


SpaceX already grabbed the people they want from the middle and upper ranks of NASA. The people that will help figure out how to be a successful partner wit NASA. Know their processes and how to plug into them where necessary (and only where necessary).

SpaceX doesn't want these technology people. They want to do it their own way. Faster and cheaper. SpaceX and NASA operate pretty differently.
 
2012-07-15 03:19:13 PM  

Nemo's Brother: What NASA needs is some PR workers, to help Muslims feel good about themselves. Righ, Obama?


i1190.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-15 03:31:39 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: b2theory: imagine it's similar in other technical fields.

False.

TommyymmoT: I'd imagine they can get work in other fields, though having NASA on your resume probably makes many employers think you're over qualified.


You're only over qualified if you are from this country.


The guy who wrote the second article you linked to is dumb. Seriously, if there is a labor shortage in the IT field, I should be making way more money.
 
2012-07-15 03:41:46 PM  

wild9: The guy who wrote the second article you linked to is dumb. Seriously, if there is a labor shortage in the IT field, I should be making way more money.


No, he's actually saying that there is no labor shortage in the IT field -but that corporations are claiming it to be the case -so that they can hire more foreign workers.
 
2012-07-15 03:44:02 PM  
Well, as they say, the world needs ditch diggers and burger flippers, right?
 
2012-07-15 03:48:37 PM  
It will take a few more years, but this country will achieve its goals. We will be rid of these intellectual elite engineers, technicians, and scientists and in exchange for good honest poor cheap labor the way big money tells us it ought to be.
 
2012-07-15 03:51:07 PM  

kholdstayr: Well, as they say, the world needs ditch diggers and burger flippers, right?


If you're qualified to work for NASA, no burger joint in the country will hire you.
 
2012-07-15 03:51:34 PM  
I hear Best Korea is looking for rocket scientists
 
2012-07-15 04:11:31 PM  
Were those people even technically NASA employees? I'd be willing to be the majority of them were working for the United Space Alliance, so they were basically Boeing and Lockheed employees that were contracted to service the Shuttle.
 
2012-07-15 04:13:56 PM  
Would we have the same sympathy towards engineers specialized in Victorian steam locomotives? Space Age engineers are equally obsolete. Shouldn't they go back to school and learn new skills?
 
2012-07-15 04:19:03 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: wild9: The guy who wrote the second article you linked to is dumb. Seriously, if there is a labor shortage in the IT field, I should be making way more money.

No, he's actually saying that there is no labor shortage in the IT field -but that corporations are claiming it to be the case -so that they can hire more foreign workers.


Bah, sorry must have read that wrong. Long day on the after hours crew answering silly questions and unlocking AD accounts :)
 
2012-07-15 04:21:05 PM  

Freschel: Nemo's Brother: What NASA needs is some PR workers, to help Muslims feel good about themselves. Righ, Obama?

[i1190.photobucket.com image 300x168]


"Bolden said in the interview that Obama told him before he took the job that he wanted him to do three things: inspire children to learn math and science, expand international relationships and "perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering"

Yeah, serious. The White house backed away from it, but it did happen.
 
2012-07-15 04:28:00 PM  

MarkEC: Freschel: Nemo's Brother: What NASA needs is some PR workers, to help Muslims feel good about themselves. Righ, Obama?

[i1190.photobucket.com image 300x168]

"Bolden said in the interview that Obama told him before he took the job that he wanted him to do three things: inspire children to learn math and science, expand international relationships and "perhaps foremost, he wanted me to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering"

Yeah, serious. The White house backed away from it, but it did happen.


Um, Muslims contributed greatly to Algebra which itself is an Arabic word.

This has nothing to do with Republicans defunding the things that make America great -all while cynically touting "American Exceptionalism." But hey, any lie to make your team look good -amIright?
 
2012-07-15 04:30:26 PM  
NetOwl
kholdstayr: Well, as they say, the world needs ditch diggers and burger flippers, right?

If you're qualified to work for NASA, no burger joint in the country will hire you.


That's what pisses me off most about being told I may have to consider a job that I consider beneath me. Nobody wants to hire someone with an advanced degree for routine gruntwork when they can hire a grunt and pay them peanuts.

Then there's the assumption that someone overqualified for a job will bail in three months when something better comes along. Buddy, if there were something better out there, would I be here?

Quantum Apostrophe
Would we have the same sympathy towards engineers specialized in Victorian steam locomotives? Space Age engineers are equally obsolete.

"The earth is the cradle of humankind, but one cannot live in the cradle forever."

Alternately...
"I don't want to live on this planet anymore...but I have to because people like you sabotage any chance of getting off."
 
2012-07-15 04:33:18 PM  
Because People In Power Are Stupid
Um, Muslims contributed greatly to Algebra which itself is an Arabic word.

And if more ordinary Muslims realised this, maybe they'd stop supporting the goatfarking fundies who want to keep everyone in the Stone Age.

We can hope.
 
2012-07-15 04:39:53 PM  

Bondith: Because People In Power Are Stupid
Um, Muslims contributed greatly to Algebra which itself is an Arabic word.

And if more ordinary Muslims realised this, maybe they'd stop supporting the goatfarking fundies who want to keep everyone in the Stone Age.

We can hope.


That's irony.

Although the term "goatfarkers" is ambiguous. I believe that the majority of their support comes from the Oil industry, which in turn outsources much of their labor from foreign countries. The laws in many of those countries are such that if you are not a Muslim -then you basically have no rights. It is easier to give shiatty wages and otherwise enslave people if they have no rights in your court system -so there's a financial interest to support goat farking in all of it's glory.
 
2012-07-15 04:48:32 PM  

Bondith: "The earth is the cradle of humankind, but one cannot live in the cradle forever."


Your religion is interesting, and deserves more study.
"Space is utterly empty and hostile and filled with radiation. The cradle looks pretty good in comparison with a vacuum."
 
2012-07-15 04:53:14 PM  
They're probably not hiring them after looking at their budget requests..
 
2012-07-15 05:03:35 PM  

kholdstayr: Well, as they say, the world needs ditch diggers and burger flippers, right?


It must be nice to feel needed.
 
2012-07-15 05:06:57 PM  
Quantum Apostrophe
Your religion is interesting, and deserves more study.

Know how I know you have no idea what the word religion means?

"Space is utterly empty and hostile and filled with radiation. The cradle looks pretty good in comparison with a vacuum."

"The sky is utterly empty and hostile and filled with a complete absence of anything to stand on. Spending
three months on a boat in order to get anywhere instead of flying seems pretty good by comparison."
"The ocean is utterly empty and hostile and filled with sharks. Dry land looks pretty good in comparison."
"Eurasia's a long walk away and probably doesn't have anything to eat. We should stay here in Africa."
"The plains are utterly empty and hostile and filled with tigers. The trees look pretty good in comparison."

If you had your way, we'd still be hurling feces at the chimps in the next tree, rather than hurling insults electronically halfway around the globe.
 
2012-07-15 05:50:47 PM  

Bondith: That's what pisses me off most about being told I may have to consider a job that I consider beneath me. Nobody wants to hire someone with an advanced degree for routine gruntwork when they can hire a grunt and pay them peanuts.


Bolded part is important. Someone with an advanced degree may think that because they have said degree that they deserve more than the peanuts a "grunt" will take. You can be a doctor, but shoveling shiat still only pays $8/hr. All other things being equal I'm sure an employer would take a genius over someone of lesser intelligence, but usually a genius thinks he should be paid because he is smart whether or not the job requires it.

Bondith: Then there's the assumption that someone overqualified for a job will bail in three months when something better comes along. Buddy, if there were something better out there, would I be here?


Maybe not in three months, but when the opportunity arises the assumption is reasonable. Back to the shoveling shiat job mentioned above. You have a guy who is the best C# dev out there, but he can't find any development work. He needs to feed himself (family, cat -this is a developer, etc.) so he takes the shoveling job. Five months later a local company needs 12 developers for a 3 year project. Starting pay for senior devs is 100k. Is this top notch CS mind going to continue to work for $8/hr or is he going to move to the $47/hr job? Some people are loyal, others are very loyal, almost no one is $39/hr delta loyal. When you're hiring someone one of the things you look at is what is the likelihood that they will be there in 3 months/6 months/1 year. I can't remember the exact formula, but employers tend to be upside down when hiring new workers for a period of time. Obviously different job types require different learning curves/onboarding procedures, but even with the simplest jobs if there are benefits involved, just spinning that process up costs money. If you have two potential workers for a job and you think person A will be there for the long haul and person B will not, you will hire person A even if person B might be slightly better for the job in the short term.
 
2012-07-15 05:52:53 PM  

Bondith: Quantum Apostrophe
Your religion is interesting, and deserves more study.

Know how I know you have no idea what the word religion means?

"Space is utterly empty and hostile and filled with radiation. The cradle looks pretty good in comparison with a vacuum."

"The sky is utterly empty and hostile and filled with a complete absence of anything to stand on. Spending
three months on a boat in order to get anywhere instead of flying seems pretty good by comparison."
"The ocean is utterly empty and hostile and filled with sharks. Dry land looks pretty good in comparison."
"Eurasia's a long walk away and probably doesn't have anything to eat. We should stay here in Africa."
"The plains are utterly empty and hostile and filled with tigers. The trees look pretty good in comparison."

If you had your way, we'd still be hurling feces at the chimps in the next tree, rather than hurling insults electronically halfway around the globe.


Here's one of his ancestors: Ooo ooo ooo eee eee AHH AHH AHH (flings poop) translation "Tree good, why leave tree, only death and lions out there. (flings poop)
 
2012-07-15 05:59:38 PM  

Bondith: Quantum Apostrophe
Your religion is interesting, and deserves more study.

Know how I know you have no idea what the word religion means?

"Space is utterly empty and hostile and filled with radiation. The cradle looks pretty good in comparison with a vacuum."

"The sky is utterly empty and hostile and filled with a complete absence of anything to stand on. Spending
three months on a boat in order to get anywhere instead of flying seems pretty good by comparison."
"The ocean is utterly empty and hostile and filled with sharks. Dry land looks pretty good in comparison."
"Eurasia's a long walk away and probably doesn't have anything to eat. We should stay here in Africa."
"The plains are utterly empty and hostile and filled with tigers. The trees look pretty good in comparison."

If you had your way, we'd still be hurling feces at the chimps in the next tree, rather than hurling insults electronically halfway around the globe.


He's cripplingly afraid of anything that could, maybe, possibly not be funding life extension tech,b ecause he has a crippling, and apparently constant, fear of death.

He is basically Space Bevets. You are *not* going to get through to him. he is the anti-space-sphere.

"SPAAACEEE. DON'T LIKE SPACe. NOPE. DON'T WANNA GO TO SPACe. SPACE SPACE SPACE."

He was barging into threads that had *nothing to do* with space and vomiting his bizarre drivel. It must have gotten him a time out, 'cause he vanished for a while. I kinda pity him, honestly.
 
2012-07-15 06:19:39 PM  

Felgraf: He is basically Space Bevets. You are *not* going to get through to him. he is the anti-space-sphere.

"SPAAACEEE. DON'T LIKE SPACe. NOPE. DON'T WANNA GO TO SPACe. SPACE SPACE SPACE."


Yeah, but he's entertaining... he was probably the sole protester to this song in the 90's
 
2012-07-15 06:23:05 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: wild9: The guy who wrote the second article you linked to is dumb. Seriously, if there is a labor shortage in the IT field, I should be making way more money.

No, he's actually saying that there is no labor shortage in the IT field -but that corporations are claiming it to be the case -so that they can hire more foreign workers.


There is a shortage of cheap IT workers. The problem the corporations have is getting them from India to the US.
 
2012-07-15 06:54:27 PM  
mjbok
Longish post of very cogent points

Everything you said makes perfect sense, and I had it bouncing around the back of my mind while I was grousing earlier. You're absolutely right that if I have a shiat-shovelling job and something better in my field comes available, I will jump on that opportunity...which makes it really hard for me to convince the employer to hire me to shovel their shiat in the first place when he and I are both aware that I'm over-qualified to shovel shiat. I just get really discouraged thinking about the job market.

Felgraf
He is basically Space Bevets. You are *not* going to get through to him. he is the anti-space-sphere.

Yeah, I've seen him before. I wonder if he realises that his Life Extension pet project would make interstellar voyages more feasible.

I checked his profile, and I'm kinda interested in how his "irrefutable" reasoning for life extension turns out. I'm curious to see how he gets from interchangeable atoms to telomeres to why entropy is really only a suggestion.
 
2012-07-15 07:03:42 PM  
Need a new pick up line.
 
2012-07-15 07:35:48 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: wild9: The guy who wrote the second article you linked to is dumb. Seriously, if there is a labor shortage in the IT field, I should be making way more money.

No, he's actually saying that there is no labor shortage in the IT field -but that corporations are claiming it to be the case -so that they can hire more foreign workers.


Yep. I know there is no shortage because for the second year in a row I was insulted by a less than inflation raise (an insulting 1.24% this year). If there was a shortage, they would have at least matched inflation. No, it wasn't due to me not doing the job. My annual review listed almost every category as "exceeding expectations".
 
2012-07-15 07:39:34 PM  

mjbok: Bondith: That's what pisses me off most about being told I may have to consider a job that I consider beneath me. Nobody wants to hire someone with an advanced degree for routine gruntwork when they can hire a grunt and pay them peanuts.

Bolded part is important. Someone with an advanced degree may think that because they have said degree that they deserve more than the peanuts a "grunt" will take. You can be a doctor, but shoveling shiat still only pays $8/hr. All other things being equal I'm sure an employer would take a genius over someone of lesser intelligence, but usually a genius thinks he should be paid because he is smart whether or not the job requires it.

Bondith: Then there's the assumption that someone overqualified for a job will bail in three months when something better comes along. Buddy, if there were something better out there, would I be here?

Maybe not in three months, but when the opportunity arises the assumption is reasonable. Back to the shoveling shiat job mentioned above. You have a guy who is the best C# dev out there, but he can't find any development work. He needs to feed himself (family, cat -this is a developer, etc.) so he takes the shoveling job. Five months later a local company needs 12 developers for a 3 year project. Starting pay for senior devs is 100k. Is this top notch CS mind going to continue to work for $8/hr or is he going to move to the $47/hr job? Some people are loyal, others are very loyal, almost no one is $39/hr delta loyal. When you're hiring someone one of the things you look at is what is the likelihood that they will be there in 3 months/6 months/1 year. I can't remember the exact formula, but employers tend to be upside down when hiring new workers for a period of time. Obviously different job types require different learning curves/onboarding procedures, but even with the simplest jobs if there are benefits involved, just spinning that process up costs money. If you have two potential workers ...


That was my experience when the dot com bubble burst. I couldn't get a job pushing a broom because they knew I'd be gone the moment I got an offer for a job in my field. My naive (ex)wife insisted I wasn't even trying.
 
2012-07-15 07:40:27 PM  

itsfullofstars: Sim Tree: Why wouldn't spaceX or virgin galactic be snapping these guys up like crazy? There's a wealth of knowledge and experience here for the picking, protocols that wouldn't need reinventing at great cost.

SpaceX already grabbed the people they want from the middle and upper ranks of NASA. The people that will help figure out how to be a successful partner wit NASA. Know their processes and how to plug into them where necessary (and only where necessary).

SpaceX doesn't want these technology people. They want to do it their own way. Faster and cheaper. SpaceX and NASA operate pretty differently.


They don't want the "researchers", maybe, but SpaceX is hiring like mad. They're at every trade show and they hire a lot of people. And since they're the name in the press, if you get a job at SpaceX, you're pretty much set to handpick your next job once you tenure yourself. Friends of mine that work there get offers left and right from other companies, and I'm not talking the executives and high end engineers.
 
2012-07-15 07:53:13 PM  

Bondith: Everything you said makes perfect sense, and I had it bouncing around the back of my mind while I was grousing earlier. You're absolutely right that if I have a shiat-shovelling job and something better in my field comes available, I will jump on that opportunity...which makes it really hard for me to convince the employer to hire me to shovel their shiat in the first place when he and I are both aware that I'm over-qualified to shovel shiat. I just get really discouraged thinking about the job market.


I was torn about your post that I quoted because you seemed reasonable in other posts within this thread. I've been on both sides (laid off and looking and the interviewing side) and it's not easy.

When I was laid off one of the first interviews I had (where I actually got hired) the hiring manager asked me what I thought would happen with the job market. I said I figured it would start to improve in six months. He said it would get worse and wouldn't bottom out for three years. This was three years ago, but I don't know if everything is on the way back up.

Lastly there is a class warfare component to this equation. Not upper/middle, more upper-middle/lower-middle. Many decidedly white collar workers have gotten to the point where they are applying for blue collar jobs. Many of the decision makers for these jobs want no part of hiring these people that often (in their minds) thought they were better than blue collar work.
 
2012-07-15 07:57:52 PM  

Bondith: Quantum Apostrophe
Your religion is interesting, and deserves more study.

Know how I know you have no idea what the word religion means?

"Space is utterly empty and hostile and filled with radiation. The cradle looks pretty good in comparison with a vacuum."

"The sky is utterly empty and hostile and filled with a complete absence of anything to stand on. Spending
three months on a boat in order to get anywhere instead of flying seems pretty good by comparison."
"The ocean is utterly empty and hostile and filled with sharks. Dry land looks pretty good in comparison."
"Eurasia's a long walk away and probably doesn't have anything to eat. We should stay here in Africa."
"The plains are utterly empty and hostile and filled with tigers. The trees look pretty good in comparison."

If you had your way, we'd still be hurling feces at the chimps in the next tree, rather than hurling insults electronically halfway around the globe.


Right, that's the only alternative. In your world, the utter HUGE empty vacuum of space is pretty much the same as the atmosphere we evolved to breathe, and the level of technology required to go into space is the same 15th century tree-chopping technology we used to cross oceans.

Yup, I'm the one with problems.

Keep praying. Maybe the magic sky test pilots will let you ride in the upper atmosphere in their tin cans.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/the-holy-cosmos - the-new-religion-of-space-exploration/255136/
 
2012-07-15 08:12:55 PM  

OgreMagi: That was my experience when the dot com bubble burst. I couldn't get a job pushing a broom because they knew I'd be gone the moment I got an offer for a job in my field. My naive (ex)wife insisted I wasn't even trying.


Were they wrong? That's a fun conversation to have with the spouse. "What do you mean you can't get a job as a janitor? You're not trying!"

OgreMagi: Yep. I know there is no shortage because for the second year in a row I was insulted by a less than inflation raise (an insulting 1.24% this year). If there was a shortage, they would have at least matched inflation. No, it wasn't due to me not doing the job. My annual review listed almost every category as "exceeding expectations".


I don't know if you're in the consulting of FTE world of IT, but with consulting there are several indicators of market health (open reqs, bill rates, voluntary terminations, etc.), but salary is (at best) a trailing indicator. Salaries are usually cut or frozen when bill rates drop, but when bill rates rise, salaries don't always follow suit until much later. A lot of consulting companies used the soft economy as a reset opportunity when it came to salaries. If you're billing at 100, but making a 100K the margin is much less than if you're billing at 90 and making 75K. When the billing goes back up, that's just that much more margin.

Before I left consulting (about three months ago) it was brutal. Most company switched to a JIT staffing model and were quick to let people go off the deck. That being said the company I worked for could not find enough people...that would take the pay rates being offered. A lot of it is finally starting to come around, but it is still much worse than it was five years ago.

Obviously a lot of it depends on where you are located and what your specialty is. Can a company run a project with two mid devs instead of a senior and a mid? The people hardest hit by this often were the best because they were so good that they priced themselves out of the market because not as good as them was good enough and a company knew that if you hire a rock star they're not going to stay for roadie wages.
 
2012-07-15 08:20:06 PM  
OgreMagi: Maybe not in three months, but when the opportunity arises the assumption is reasonable. Back to the shoveling shiat job mentioned above. You have a guy who is the best C# dev out there, but he can't find any development work. He needs to feed himself (family, cat -this is a developer, etc.) so he takes the shoveling job. Five months later a local company needs 12 developers for a 3 year project. Starting pay for senior devs is 100k. Is this top notch CS mind going to continue to work for $8/hr or is he going to move to the $47/hr job? Some people are loyal, others are very loyal, almost no one is $39/hr delta loyal. When you're hiring someone one of the things you look at is what is the likelihood that they will be there in 3 months/6 months/1 year. I can't remember the exact formula, but employers tend to be upside down when hiring new workers for a period of time. Obviously different job types require different learning curves/onboarding procedures, but even with the simplest jobs if there are benefits involved, just spinning that process up costs money. If you have two potential workers ...

That was my experience when the dot com bubble burst. I couldn't get a job pushing a broom because they knew I'd be gone the moment I got an offer for a job in my field. My naive (ex)wife insisted I wasn't even trying.


Yeah you don't even have to be like a rocket scientist to be in a position where they don't want to hire you because they know you will bail, you just have to have a field that requires some kind of either license or degree
 
2012-07-15 08:27:38 PM  

mjbok: OgreMagi: That was my experience when the dot com bubble burst. I couldn't get a job pushing a broom because they knew I'd be gone the moment I got an offer for a job in my field. My naive (ex)wife insisted I wasn't even trying.

Were they wrong? That's a fun conversation to have with the spouse. "What do you mean you can't get a job as a janitor? You're not trying!"

OgreMagi: Yep. I know there is no shortage because for the second year in a row I was insulted by a less than inflation raise (an insulting 1.24% this year). If there was a shortage, they would have at least matched inflation. No, it wasn't due to me not doing the job. My annual review listed almost every category as "exceeding expectations".

I don't know if you're in the consulting of FTE world of IT, but with consulting there are several indicators of market health (open reqs, bill rates, voluntary terminations, etc.), but salary is (at best) a trailing indicator. Salaries are usually cut or frozen when bill rates drop, but when bill rates rise, salaries don't always follow suit until much later. A lot of consulting companies used the soft economy as a reset opportunity when it came to salaries. If you're billing at 100, but making a 100K the margin is much less than if you're billing at 90 and making 75K. When the billing goes back up, that's just that much more margin.

Before I left consulting (about three months ago) it was brutal. Most company switched to a JIT staffing model and were quick to let people go off the deck. That being said the company I worked for could not find enough people...that would take the pay rates being offered. A lot of it is finally starting to come around, but it is still much worse than it was five years ago.

Obviously a lot of it depends on where you are located and what your specialty is. Can a company run a project with two mid devs instead of a senior and a mid? The people hardest hit by this often were the best because they were so good that they pr ...


I went full time employee a few years ago when I saw the direction the economy was headed. Consulting is great when the economy is hot, but work tends to be few and far between in these times.

I'm a system admin, not a programmer, so I'm needed whether they start a new project or not (assuming they want to keep shiat running). Also, my division was the most profitable in the entire company. We pretty much carried the rest. Hint, my job is keeping the websites running that provide support for game developers for a certain high end game console. Another hint, I don't do windows.

What was annoying about my ex accusing me of not trying was she'd talk about a coworker's geek husband being out of work for over a year right after that. I finally found a shiat job doing data entry for shiat pay for a shiat company and an asshole of a boss. I gritted my teeth and tolerated him for a year before I got a "real" job. The asshole boss was actually confused as to why I would want to leave his company for four times the pay and full benefits.
 
2012-07-15 09:47:07 PM  
Iran is hiring.
 
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