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(MSNBC)   Zimmerman tries to piss off his judge. Again   (usnews.msnbc.msn.com) divider line 737
    More: Dumbass, image file, martin case, Seminole County, recusals, NBC News, Dean Martin, legal risk  
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21759 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Jul 2012 at 9:30 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-14 09:48:55 PM

gimmegimme: There are MMA bouts that don't look that bad!


Like the ones Martin & his friends had on Youtube?

Down play the injuries all you want, you weren't there getting your head slammed into the sidewalk. If you never have, I can tell you it rattles your brain pretty good.

Regardless, He was attacked and that cannot be disputed with his injuries to his head & nose; and Martins injuries to his knuckles and hands - Those are what police call "aggressor injuries"

 
2012-07-14 09:53:43 PM

vegasj: Mrtraveler01: What was suspicious about him exactly?

Has Zimmerman been able to prove what was suspicious about Martin yet?

Zimmerman lived there, Martin didn't.


Except that he was staying with his dad and stepmom who did live there.

But you knew that right?
 
2012-07-14 09:54:35 PM

vegasj: Mrtraveler01: This is a guy who used pictures of the G20 riots in Toronto as an example of a race riot.

wow... you're 5 for 5 in bringing that up in every thread. Move on dude... you are starting to repeat yourself.



It just says a lot about your character is all.
 
2012-07-14 10:06:33 PM

vegasj: gimmegimme: There are MMA bouts that don't look that bad!

Like the ones Martin & his friends had on Youtube?

Down play the injuries all you want, you weren't there getting your head slammed into the sidewalk. If you never have, I can tell you it rattles your brain pretty good.

Regardless, He was attacked and that cannot be disputed with his injuries to his head & nose; and Martins injuries to his knuckles and hands - Those are what police call "aggressor injuries"


Why are you referring to incidents that have nothing to do with the shooting? Do you bring up Zimmerman's history of violence as quickly?

Would you mind researching and posting the extensive "aggressor injuries" you mention? If you had read the thread, you would find that the only bloodbath was the pool that gushed from Martin's chest.

Do you have any proof--real proof--that Zimmerman had his head pounded on the sidewalk? Why doesn't he have any grass stains on his pants? If his brain was "rattled good," why didn't he spend some time in the hospital.

Most of all, why DIDN'T Zimmerman expect to receive injuries, given the fact that he started a fight? (And what a coward pooosy; he started a fistfight knowing that he had a gun.)
 
2012-07-14 10:07:47 PM

vegasj: But considering Zimmerman never said they were wrestling in the grass what is your point?


You know how I can tell you've done nothing but listen to anecdotal evidence?

That's also not someone who has had his head smashed into the sidewalk violently. I know, because I see that far more often than should happen. Usually someone who has their head bashed into a sidewalk has a concussion. Sometimes they are seizing. Sometimes they are almost dead and need to get lidocaine to keep the swelling down and then we intubate.
What you see there is what is known as a "superficial wound". That means it only penetrates the first few layers of skin, not even getting into the fascia. I know it looks like a lot of blood, but when the phlemotomist does a draw into one of those vacutainer tubes, they take more than what you see there. He didn't even end up with staples ffs.
 
2012-07-14 10:09:33 PM

gimmegimme: Most of all, why DIDN'T Zimmerman expect to receive injuries, given the fact that he started a fight? (And what a coward pooosy; he started a fistfight knowing that he had a gun.)


imgs.xkcd.com
 
2012-07-14 10:09:48 PM

cretinbob: vegasj: But considering Zimmerman never said they were wrestling in the grass what is your point?

You know how I can tell you've done nothing but listen to anecdotal evidence?

That's also not someone who has had his head smashed into the sidewalk violently. I know, because I see that far more often than should happen. Usually someone who has their head bashed into a sidewalk has a concussion. Sometimes they are seizing. Sometimes they are almost dead and need to get lidocaine to keep the swelling down and then we intubate.
What you see there is what is known as a "superficial wound". That means it only penetrates the first few layers of skin, not even getting into the fascia. I know it looks like a lot of blood, but when the phlemotomist does a draw into one of those vacutainer tubes, they take more than what you see there. He didn't even end up with staples ffs.


How dare you contradict the medical knowledge of a guy who has a GED in Medicine?
 
2012-07-14 10:15:53 PM

kashari: How did he beat the shiat out of him, but not have any blood or DNA or bruises on his hands? We don't know what happened, but I don't believe Z's story, too many contradictions in his statements & the evidence.

1. You're the first person that I've seen try to contest that Zimmerman's injuries came from Martin. So I'll just leave that one alone.

2. Can you cite some contradictions in his statements and actions?

Those two tiny cuts on the back of his head do not indicate repeated bashing on cement either and he had a possible closed fracture of his nose, those are the only injuries noted on HIS doctor's report (that was for a work release, btw, not because he was worried about his health, he knew he was fine, no concussion, nada).

3. I've blacked out before after hitting my head on a concrete driveway during a basketball game. Guess how many abrasions / scratches I had. Zero.

George could have fallen into bushes, hit the tree or the doggie station thing, any number of ways he could have been hurt. Trayvon may have popped him in the nose in self-defense & Z could've hit his head then. THE EVIDENCE does not support Trayvon beating the crap out of him, AT ALL.

4. You certainly have a very unique theory.

 
2012-07-14 10:16:54 PM

Mrtraveler01: Except that he was staying with his dad and stepmom who did live there.

But you knew that right?


No, neither did Zimmerman.

Mrtraveler01: It just says a lot about your character is all.


and yours.

gimmegimme: Do you have any proof--real proof--that Zimmerman had his head pounded on the sidewalk?


Did you miss the bloodied picture above with the cuts to his head? Or did you just scan past that with your eyes closed...

cretinbob: Usually someone who has their head bashed into a sidewalk has a concussion. Sometimes they are seizing. Sometimes they are almost dead and need to get lidocaine to keep the swelling down and then we intubate.


Correct. You sir are absolutely correct... It didn't get to that point, because the aggressor was shot.

 
2012-07-14 10:19:53 PM

vegasj: It didn't get to that point, because the aggressor was shot.


No he didn't. He's facing trial like he should.
 
2012-07-14 10:21:46 PM

cretinbob: vegasj: It didn't get to that point, because the aggressor was shot.

No he didn't. He's facing trial like he should.


The purpose of laws like "stand your ground" is to avoid feeding people into the court system where they're bankrupted. The only reason this prosecution is happening is because the media stirred up people by playing the race card.
 
2012-07-14 10:22:36 PM

cretinbob: No he didn't. He's facing trial like he should.


very clever... did you have facts for that statement?

 
2012-07-14 10:24:38 PM

NightOwl2255: Silly Jesus: 1. So Martin could have been assaulted first by Zimmerman and yet there are no bruises or abrasions or grass stains or black eyes or cuts or scrapes on Martin. Brilliant. Please do expand on this theory of yours...just how did Zimmerman assault Martin to the extent that he feared for his life (necessary to justify the injuries he inflicted on Zimmerman) while at the same time not leaving a single mark on him?

So Martin assaulted Zimmerman to within an inch of his life, and only got one small abrasion on his finger, yet you want to hang your hat on the fact that Zimmerman didn't have any injuries to his hands as proof that he didn't assault Martin. When Zimmerman slapped his GF there were most likely no marks on his hands. When Zimmerman assaulted the officer, there were most likely no injuries on his hands. Doesn't change the fact her assaulted both of them. If Zimmerman grabbed Martin to stop him from leaving, that alone would justify Martin beating the shiat out of Zimmerman. And it DAMN sure would trash your often repeated theory that the ONLY reason that Martin assaulted Zimmerman was because he was watching him from a distance.


1. You don't necessarily get abrasions on your hands from slamming someone's head into the ground. The threat of blacking out very reasonably puts someone who is being beaten in fear for their life.

2. Dismissed - You don't know the nature of injuries to either party, if any.
3. Dismissed - You don't know the nature of injuries to either party, if any.
4. No evidence that Zimmerman ever grabbed Martin. Even if he did, I would disagree with your reasoning that that would be an offense worthy of the death penalty.
 
2012-07-14 10:24:39 PM

vegasj: Mrtraveler01: Except that he was staying with his dad and stepmom who did live there.

But you knew that right?

No, neither did Zimmerman.


So Zimmerman farked up by jumping to conculsions?

I agree.
 
2012-07-14 10:31:41 PM

Mrtraveler01: So Zimmerman farked up by jumping to conculsions?

I agree.


Nope, Martin farked up bringing fists to a gun fight.

 
2012-07-14 10:32:37 PM

CliChe Guevara: Silly Jesus: Martin, a fit, high school athlete, took off running around the corner of the building. Zimmerman lost sight of him and ran/jogged to the corner of the building to attempt to regain sight of Martin. If Martin had continued to run to his apartment, which he could have easily reached, they never would have come into contact that night.

he was not only close, but was actually in line of sight of his door.
that being said, if some unknown but obviously aggressive (citation needed) stranger is running after you, would you lead them right to where you lived, or would you try to hide until they left? close call. people could easily go either way. Sure, it could go either way, but if I was genuinely afraid for my life I probably wouldn't be planning for future encounters (what if he knows where I live) and I would be trying to preserve my life at that moment and escape (behind a locked door in an apartment with potential weapons such as a kitchen knife). I also probably would stop chatting with my girlfriend and call the police.

 
2012-07-14 10:33:05 PM

vegasj: Mrtraveler01: So Zimmerman farked up by jumping to conculsions?

I agree.

Nope, Martin farked up bringing fists to a gun fight.


Martin can't stand his ground against a guy stalking him?
 
2012-07-14 10:34:56 PM

Fail in Human Form: gimmegimme: Most of all, why DIDN'T Zimmerman expect to receive injuries, given the fact that he started a fight? (And what a coward pooosy; he started a fistfight knowing that he had a gun.)

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]


Which part? Are you claiming that Martin had a gun? Or that he was the one following Zimmerman?
 
2012-07-14 10:37:19 PM

Mrtraveler01: vegasj: Mrtraveler01: So Zimmerman farked up by jumping to conculsions?

I agree.

Nope, Martin farked up bringing fists to a gun fight.

Martin can't stand his ground against a guy stalking him?


1. It wasn't "stalking", not even close. I know that this definition has been provided to you more than once.
2. Someone looking at you does not necessitate or allow for you to kill them.
 
2012-07-14 10:38:28 PM

gimmegimme: Fail in Human Form: gimmegimme: Most of all, why DIDN'T Zimmerman expect to receive injuries, given the fact that he started a fight? (And what a coward pooosy; he started a fistfight knowing that he had a gun.)

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]

Which part? Are you claiming that Martin had a gun? Or that he was the one following Zimmerman?


That Zimmerman started the fight.
 
2012-07-14 10:41:04 PM

Mrtraveler01: Martin can't stand his ground against a guy stalking him?


define stalking then give me the facts that Zimmerman was stalking.

 
2012-07-14 10:44:56 PM

Silly Jesus: 2. Someone looking at you does not necessitate or allow for you to kill them.


I honestly don't know which side you're arguing for.
 
2012-07-14 10:44:56 PM

vegasj: Mrtraveler01: Martin can't stand his ground against a guy stalking him?

define stalking then give me the facts that Zimmerman was stalking.


Stalking is an exaggeration.

But going after the kid while pretending to be the hero seemed pretty counter productive in the grand scheme of things.

Martin farked up by getting into a fight and Zimmerman farked up by not staying in his car.

Both sides farked up so vote Republican or something I guess.
 
2012-07-14 10:46:02 PM

Fail in Human Form: gimmegimme: Fail in Human Form: gimmegimme: Most of all, why DIDN'T Zimmerman expect to receive injuries, given the fact that he started a fight? (And what a coward pooosy; he started a fistfight knowing that he had a gun.)

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]

Which part? Are you claiming that Martin had a gun? Or that he was the one following Zimmerman?

That Zimmerman started the fight.


But see, it doesn't matter if you started the fight. IF you're getting your ass kicked, you can shoot the guy EVEN if you were the one starting the fight.

My next vacation to Florida is going to be so AWESOME!
 
2012-07-14 10:49:27 PM
Long story short:

Overall, the only thing that Martin did wrong was get into a fight with Zimmerman. Prior to that, he did absolutely nothing wrong and there was no reason to follow him. Zimmerman followed him because he was being overzealous and wanted to be the hero of the neighborhood IMO.

Also, whatever racist theory you have for why he went to 7-11 is irrelevant when it comes to why Zimmerman followed/fought/shot Martin as well.

Is this a reasonable position to take?
 
2012-07-14 11:02:05 PM

Mrtraveler01: Long story short:

Overall, the only thing that Martin did wrong was get into a fight with Zimmerman. Prior to that, he did absolutely nothing wrong and there was no reason to follow him. Zimmerman followed him because he was being overzealous and wanted to be the hero of the neighborhood IMO.

Also, whatever racist theory you have for why he went to 7-11 is irrelevant when it comes to why Zimmerman followed/fought/shot Martin as well.

Is this a reasonable position to take?


No. Anything other than 'Zimmerman is a True American Hero for gunning down this OBVIOUS gang-banging druggie on his way home to mix up some purple drank' means you're the real racist.
 
2012-07-14 11:11:36 PM
BTW:

Thanks cretinbob, you just made my day:

i36.photobucket.com
 
2012-07-14 11:19:18 PM
A pussy with a gun in his hand is still a pussy.
 
2012-07-14 11:24:38 PM

Hickory-smoked: Silly Jesus: 2. Someone looking at you does not necessitate or allow for you to kill them.

I honestly don't know which side you're arguing for.


0_o
 
2012-07-14 11:26:22 PM

jso2897: A pussy with a gun in his hand is still a pussy.


I don't think that Martin ever actually got the gun in his hands.
 
2012-07-14 11:26:25 PM

Mrtraveler01: Overall, the only thing that Martin did wrong was get into a fight with Zimmerman. Prior to that, he did absolutely nothing wrong and there was no reason to follow him. Zimmerman followed him because he was being overzealous and wanted to be the hero of the neighborhood IMO.


Is assaulting someone a reasonable response to them following you?

Is shooting someone a reasonable response to someone assaulting you?
 
2012-07-14 11:26:42 PM
Those of you who are serving as apologists for at least a pussy manslaughterer and at worst a cold-blooded murderer. Here's what you want us to believe.

This is what "I can't wait for a rematch" looks like:

thecagedoctors.com

This is what "It was either him or me, Your Honor...he came out of nowhere...I had to shoot him dead even though I have several weight classes on him...look at my extensive injuries...ow!" looks like:

sharing.wptv.com

sharing.wptv.com
 
2012-07-14 11:37:01 PM
Real life is just like an MMA match. That's what some Farkers actually believe.
 
2012-07-14 11:38:37 PM

cretinbob: That's also not someone who has had his head smashed into the sidewalk violently. I know, because I see that far more often than should happen. Usually someone who has their head bashed into a sidewalk has a concussion. Sometimes they are seizing. Sometimes they are almost dead and need to get lidocaine to keep the swelling down and then we intubate.
What you see there is what is known as a "superficial wound". That means it only penetrates the first few layers of skin, not even getting into the fascia. I know it looks like a lot of blood, but when the phlemotomist does a draw into one of those vacutainer tubes, they take more than what you see there. He didn't even end up with staples ffs.


If someone punches another in the face causing him to fall backwards and onto the ground, what injuries can be expected? If the aggressor then climbs on top of the person and strikes them in the face as their head lay against concrete, what kind of injuries can be expected?

How about you take the evidence that is known and try to fit it together? Ignore what internet posters are saying and look at statements made by Zimmerman and pictures detailing the injuries.Saying it's not likely he was on his back being struck in the face is rather silly considering there's an injury to Martin's hand and Zimmerman has injuries to his head.

Put it this way, if I had you on the ground and was punching, striking, or manhandling your face, how comfortable would you be with me doing it before you tried to stop me because you feared for your life?

Please, in your expert medical opinion, how many hits does it take to a head to do permanent damage?
 
2012-07-14 11:42:38 PM

consider this: Real life is just like an MMA match. That's what some Farkers actually believe.


I know.

Fark has a weirdly high retard quotient when it comes to emotional issues.

What's funny is that people do suffer grievous injuries in licensed bouts. Even with a medical tech standing right by there and checking them out between rounds. Not to mention in MMA you know for a fact, the other guy isn't trying to kill you.
 
2012-07-14 11:48:03 PM

Mrbogey: Is assaulting someone a reasonable response to them following you?


I said it wasn't. Can't you read?
 
2012-07-15 12:12:33 AM

gimmegimme: Nutsac_Jim: Women are the champs at not using logic and using emotion and wanting you to infer things.
If you don't want to believe it, it's your own problem. Next up, I need to explain that guys like to look at boobs.

I have heard plenty of 911 tapes where the person is told to 'stay in your house', 'don't go outside' THOSE are instructions.

So what you're saying is that women, because of their very nature, should be prohibited from being 911 operators, policemen or to hold any other position in which it is critical to give clear orders.


No. the dykes are probably ok. Those are the ones that are currently in the cars though. Its the ones on the phone that are clearly the problem.
 
2012-07-15 12:19:05 AM

Fail in Human Form: gimmegimme: Fail in Human Form: gimmegimme: Most of all, why DIDN'T Zimmerman expect to receive injuries, given the fact that he started a fight? (And what a coward pooosy; he started a fistfight knowing that he had a gun.)

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]

Which part? Are you claiming that Martin had a gun? Or that he was the one following Zimmerman?

That Zimmerman started the fight.


how did zimmerman start the fight? because he got out of his car? hahah
Martin could have avoided that fight by not getting out of bed that day.
 
2012-07-15 12:32:25 AM

Benjimin_Dover: Hickory-smoked: DancingElkCondor: The media has kept calling the drink "Iced Tea".....when the evidentiary photos of the crime scene clearly show it is a "watermelon" drink

The media is so hung up on Racial Stereotypes that they will not accurately report the drink Tray was carrying. Someone should tell the media, and some of the people posting here....white folks eat watermelon, too

One would think that the media not wasting time with irrelevant nonsense would be a good thing. Apparently, you consider it a conspiracy.

I can believe that Zimmerman might not have been motivated by racial prejudice, but I don't think I can say as much for his cheerleaders.

Why would you think that a media outlet taking an active choice to CHANGE the kind of drink is NOT wasting time? Wouldn't the opposite be NOT wasting time and leaving the correct drink in? I think that the original complaint that apparently started all this discussion in the first place of the media being PC about it was correct. If Travon was walking down the street carrying watermelon, some fried chicken, dribbling a basketball, and drinking a 40 oz. bottle of Colt45 it isn't racially insensitive to report those facts as they are facts. Just because they happen to be black stereotypes doesn't mean that reality needs to take a vacation in reporting.


The media was reporting what was in the police reports, which was "Arizona Iced Tea", so if you have a problem with it, talk to the officers who wrote up the reports.
 
2012-07-15 12:42:37 AM

Nutsac_Jim: how did zimmerman start the fight? because he got out of his car? hahah
Martin could have avoided that fight by not getting out of bed that day.


You are sincerely terrible at this.
 
2012-07-15 12:46:55 AM

vegasj: Mrtraveler01: This is a guy who used pictures of the G20 riots in Toronto as an example of a race riot.

wow... you're 5 for 5 in bringing that up in every thread. Move on dude... you are starting to repeat yourself.

cretinbob: These are also not the pants of someone who was wrestling in the wet grass.

sharing.wptv.com

Well, no. But considering Zimmerman never said they were wrestling in the grass what is your point? Zimmerman said he was knocked down and on his back... so we'll show a picture of the front of him to prove he wasn't wrestling around in the wet grass. Anyways... even pictures of his back he isn't wet... but since this all happened in a matter of probably less than minutes, I'm sure he dried off between the time the shot was fired & they got to taking pictures at the police station.

Which brings up the good question... why are there so many pictures? I thought one thing people were biatching about was that the police didn't do their job and investigate this?

some of you are stupid.

[www.nypost.com image 525x275]


My issue is that the police didn't take enough pictures of Zimmerman at the scene. They weren't done until after he went to the station, except for the one(?) that a cop took on his phone & forgot to turn over to investigators until weeks later.

This was a shoddy investigation in many ways;

Zimmerman should have been drug/alcohol tested, he wasn't that we know of yet.

They didn't search/impound his vehicle (did he not tell the officers he drove to the area?), which could have had evidence of loading his gun.

No mention of his wallet in the list of property he had (thought he was going to Target?), did they not ask him for ID after he shot someone? Even if one cop 'knew' him from previous calls, that is not a positive identification.

A neighbor was allowed to be in the crime scene even after the tape was up (prob same guy who called Z's wife & took a picture or two), then a cop finally told him to move.

Where is footprint evidence, which could have told a lot of the story, especially with wet ground?

Police didn't interview some of the witnesses, including the paramedics, until late March.

etc.etc.etc....
 
2012-07-15 12:47:27 AM

consider this:
GZ and TM were involved in a physical altercation, that's not in question by anybody involved with the case. GZ had multiple injuries while TM had no injuries other than a small laceration on a knuckle. Does that say who started the fight? No it doesn't. What I don't understand is how people are able to speculate that GZ attacked TM and then use that speculation to convict a man of murder. It's as if GZ needs to be punished solely because TM is dead, no matter what happened that night.

Like I was saying before, I can see a manslaughter charge, but there's nothing here to prove that a murder took place.


Yes, he does need to be punished, and manslaughter (or as we say in Scotland, culpable homicide) certainly occurred here. It doesn't really matter what happened when they came face to face. These facts stand:

1. Trayvon Martin was minding his own business causing no harm to anyone
2. George Zimmerman pro-actively followed him with a lethal weapon
3. George Zimmerman shot and killed him.

A reasonably foreseeable consequence of pursuing someone with a gun is that you end up killing someone, and that is what makes Zimmerman culpable. This is not the 19th century Wild West, and civilized societies don't allow random shootings based on who threw the first punch. People arguing the technicalities should be disgusted with themselves, a kid is dead because of Zimmerman's vigilante behaviour.

We have people who are licensed and trained to follow other people with guns, and we call them cops. Even they get it badly wrong and take innocent lives often enough for it to be a serious problem.

It's entirely possible that Zimmerman will be found not guilty due to Florida's ridiculous SYG law - it's a bad law and need changing. It sets the threshold for taking a human life far too low.

Regardless of the legal outcome, Zimmerman is morally culpable.
 
2012-07-15 01:01:35 AM

ParaHandy: Regardless of the legal outcome, Zimmerman is morally culpable.


Not true at all. GZ had every right to be armed that night.
 
2012-07-15 01:15:59 AM

consider this: kashari: Yes, the light shirt was mentioned in this last doc dump IIRC. Just because George has injuries, does not PROVE that Trayvon started the altercation or caused the injuries himself. The ground was wet & it was dark, George could have slipped or even if TM punched him, he could've hurt his head when he fell. There is no evidence his head was POUNDED multiple times. Those two little cuts are about 1in & a smaller one. (see his 'work release' doctor's report on his injuries.)

You'll have to provide a citation for the light colored shirt statement, I can't seem to find anything while searching Google.

So you're saying that it's possible that GZ slipped and fell multiple times causing injuries on the front and back of his head? Taken that we have an eyewitness that saw TM on top, I'd say that's a real stretch.

As for the head being "pounded", how many times would you allow a person to bang your head off the ground before you felt as if your life might be in danger? At any point, the next blow could have been the fatal one. Was GZ obligated to wait until his skull was fractured before taking actions to defend himself?

GZ and TM were involved in a physical altercation, that's not in question by anybody involved with the case. GZ had multiple injuries while TM had no injuries other than a small laceration on a knuckle. Does that say who started the fight? No it doesn't. What I don't understand is how people are able to speculate that GZ attacked TM and then use that speculation to convict a man of murder. It's as if GZ needs to be punished solely because TM is dead, no matter what happened that night.

Like I was saying before, I can see a manslaughter charge, but there's nothing here to prove that a murder took place.


In the latest doc dump is where the guy on top with a light shirt is mentioned, don't remember exactly where though.

2nd Discovery Dump

George did not have injuries showing repeated bashing of his head. His doctor's report said he had a broken nose, but no septal deviation by sight, black eyes from his nose and the two small lacerations. NO other bumps to his head, no bleeding from ears, no busted lip, no facial or skull fractures....

Hell, he went for a work release, not because he was concerned about his 'life-threatening injuries'. If his head had been bashed like he claimed, he should have had a lot more tests done to make sure there wasn't something wrong, that wasn't readily apparent. I know I'd get my noggin' checked after it felt like it was going to 'explode', wouldn't you? He didn't because he KNOWS it didn't happen the way he's claiming.

Med Report
 
2012-07-15 01:18:31 AM

Nutsac_Jim: Fail in Human Form: gimmegimme: Fail in Human Form: gimmegimme: Most of all, why DIDN'T Zimmerman expect to receive injuries, given the fact that he started a fight? (And what a coward pooosy; he started a fistfight knowing that he had a gun.)

[imgs.xkcd.com image 500x271]

Which part? Are you claiming that Martin had a gun? Or that he was the one following Zimmerman?

That Zimmerman started the fight.

how did zimmerman start the fight? because he got out of his car? hahah
Martin could have avoided that fight by not getting out of bed that day.


I don't feel Zimmerman started the fight, I was disagreeing with his assertion that Zimmerman did and if you'd read back a few pages you'd see that.
 
2012-07-15 02:11:53 AM
Zimmerman is almost certainly going to do time for this, mainly because the only undisputable fact is that he shot and killed an unarmed teen. Take away all speculation about who started what and all you have left is that Zim introduced a weapon into an otherwise weaponless situation and he killed a kid with it. I'm betting 'his side of the story' - the one all his admirers keep repeating as if it was corroborated by witnesses - won't help him.
 
2012-07-15 08:45:37 AM

kashari: My issue is that the police didn't take enough pictures of Zimmerman at the scene. They weren't done until after he went to the station, except for the one(?) that a cop took on his phone & forgot to turn over to investigators until weeks later.

All of their photos haven't been released to the public. The cell phone picture you've seen was taken by a neighbor.

This was a shoddy investigation in many ways;

Zimmerman should have been drug/alcohol tested, he wasn't that we know of yet.

Gotta have a warrant for that. No crime (they thought it was self defense) means no warrant.

They didn't search/impound his vehicle (did he not tell the officers he drove to the area?), which could have had evidence of loading his gun.

Again, no crime, no warrant....plus I don't see the relevance. Evidence of loading the gun? You mean bullets? I think that those were pretty clearly present...


No mention of his wallet in the list of property he had (thought he was going to Target?), did they not ask him for ID after he shot someone? Even if one cop 'knew' him from previous calls, that is not a positive identification.

Ummm...Yes, if an officer knows someone they are not obligated to look at their ID.

A neighbor was allowed to be in the crime scene even after the tape was up (prob same guy who called Z's wife & took a picture or two), then a cop finally told him to move.

Shouldn't have been allowed.

Where is footprint evidence, which could have told a lot of the story, especially with wet ground?

Stop watching CSI.

 
2012-07-15 08:51:15 AM

ParaHandy: Yes, he does need to be punished, and manslaughter (or as we say in Scotland, culpable homicide) certainly occurred here. Good thing we're not in Scotland. His actions here weren't a crime. It doesn't really matter what happened when they came face to face. Actually, that's 100% of what matters. These facts stand:

1. Trayvon Martin was minding his own business causing no harm to anyone
2. George Zimmerman pro-actively followed him with a lethal weapon
2.5 Trayvon Martin attempted to kill George Zimmerman for looking at him and following him.
3. George Zimmerman shot and killed him.

A reasonably foreseeable consequence of pursuing someone with a gun is that you end up killing someone, and that is what makes Zimmerman culpable. Not under the law. This is not the 19th century Wild West, and civilized societies don't allow random shootings based on who threw the first punch. Yes they do. If someone tries to kill you for viewing and following them in a public area then many a civilized person would attempt to prevent their own unjustified death. People arguing the technicalities should be disgusted with themselves, a kid is dead because of Zimmerman's vigilante behaviour. This kid is dead because he thought he could kill someone for observing him.

We have people who are licensed and trained to follow other people with guns, and we call them cops. Even they get it badly wrong and take innocent lives often enough for it to be a serious problem.

It's entirely possible that Zimmerman will be found not guilty due to Florida's ridiculous SYG law - it's a bad law and need changing. It sets the threshold for taking a human life far too low. The spirit of law dates back to the Magna Carta. Also, it likely had nothing to do with this case. Even before the law, you could kill someone who is unjustifiably trying to kill you. Zimmerman was on his back underneath Martin...escape wasn't even on the table.

Regardless of the legal outcome, Zimmerman is morally culpable. Nope.

 
2012-07-15 08:56:31 AM

kashari: consider this: kashari: Yes, the light shirt was mentioned in this last doc dump IIRC. Just because George has injuries, does not PROVE that Trayvon started the altercation or caused the injuries himself. The ground was wet & it was dark, George could have slipped or even if TM punched him, he could've hurt his head when he fell. There is no evidence his head was POUNDED multiple times. Those two little cuts are about 1in & a smaller one. (see his 'work release' doctor's report on his injuries.)

You'll have to provide a citation for the light colored shirt statement, I can't seem to find anything while searching Google.

So you're saying that it's possible that GZ slipped and fell multiple times causing injuries on the front and back of his head? Taken that we have an eyewitness that saw TM on top, I'd say that's a real stretch.

As for the head being "pounded", how many times would you allow a person to bang your head off the ground before you felt as if your life might be in danger? At any point, the next blow could have been the fatal one. Was GZ obligated to wait until his skull was fractured before taking actions to defend himself?

GZ and TM were involved in a physical altercation, that's not in question by anybody involved with the case. GZ had multiple injuries while TM had no injuries other than a small laceration on a knuckle. Does that say who started the fight? No it doesn't. What I don't understand is how people are able to speculate that GZ attacked TM and then use that speculation to convict a man of murder. It's as if GZ needs to be punished solely because TM is dead, no matter what happened that night.

Like I was saying before, I can see a manslaughter charge, but there's nothing here to prove that a murder took place.

In the latest doc dump is where the guy on top with a light shirt is mentioned, don't remember exactly where though.

2nd Discovery Dump

George did not have injuries showing repeated bashing of his head. His doctor's repo ...


I hit my head on the concrete driveway once during a basketball game. I temporarily blacked out. I had no scratches or bruising etc. If I were underneath someone who was punching me and I had my head hit on the ground and thought I might black out (being completely vulnerable to my attacker for an unknown period of time) I would very reasonably be fearful for my life.

You're missing the point on being fearful for his life...it wasn't because he thought the black eye would kill him...and it especially wasn't because he thought it would kill him after the incident (as you are implying...why didn't he go to the ER if he thought he was dying, derp). The fear for his life was when he was being beaten and there was a danger of him blacking out and no longer being able to defend himself against his attacker.
 
2012-07-15 09:00:31 AM

Abox: Zimmerman is almost certainly going to do time for this, mainly because the only undisputable fact is that he shot and killed an unarmed teen. Take away all speculation about who started what and all you have left is that Zim introduced a weapon into an otherwise weaponless situation and he killed a kid with it. I'm betting 'his side of the story' - the one all his admirers keep repeating as if it was corroborated by witnesses - won't help him.


Your hate for guns is tainting your view.

It's highly unlikely that he will do any time. Most rational people rightfully believe that you have a right to defend yourself against a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. In this country, you simply cannot attempt to kill someone for the non-crime of observing and following you in a public area.
 
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