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(USA Today)   Now that interchange fees have been regulated to more reasonable levels, retailers have won the right to charge more if you pay with a credit card   (usatoday.com) divider line 89
    More: Asinine, interchange fees, MasterCard, visas, credit cards, supermarket chains, u.s. banks, Rite Aid  
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7557 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jul 2012 at 9:15 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-13 07:31:34 PM
Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash, instead of with, say, a certain piece of green plastic that only pays me 96 cents out of every dollar?
 
2012-07-13 07:33:40 PM
If you pay with a credit card the merchant is charged for it, subby. Often around 1 percent but it varies.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-07-13 07:45:29 PM
Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash

I heard the standard card agreements allowed cash discounts but not credit card surcharges.
 
2012-07-13 07:46:24 PM
Huh, Specs Liquor has done this for years. Doesn't really bug me.
 
2012-07-13 07:59:17 PM
Is there a fee if it's a debit card instead of CC card?
 
2012-07-13 08:00:28 PM

ZAZ: Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash

I heard the standard card agreements allowed cash discounts but not credit card surcharges.


i remember this being an issue with gas stations but then the gas stations that didnt offer a cash discount (but charging that discount fee regardless of payment type, or maybe offering both at the higher? i'm sketchy on the details now) siphoned off enough of the customer base that everyone just quittit.
 
2012-07-13 08:02:10 PM

MisterTweak: Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash, instead of with, say, a certain piece of green plastic that only pays me 96 cents out of every dollar?


If you don't like paying 4% in fees, don't accept charge cards. That is your right as a merchant, and it's my right as a consumer to pay however I choose.

I actually always assumed merchants price everything assuming a 100% charge rate, and just make more off the cash people.
 
2012-07-13 08:02:59 PM
Too tired to read. Someone please tell me how outraged/ecstatic I should be.
 
2012-07-13 08:04:27 PM
fact is, we (people using credit cards as cash, for reward points or miles) had a good run. i wish i had figured out the angle earlier in life, or had the discipline to use it as indicated, but i got a free amazon splurge every couple months for a few years there, and that was nice. now my debit card gives rewards points, iirc, and if it's processed as a debit i think it's still got the cc customer protections on theft, etc? i dont like removing an extra layer f security, but maybe by the time we get there, there'll be other layers in place/practice?
 
2012-07-13 08:08:53 PM

coco ebert: Too tired to read. Someone please tell me how outraged/ecstatic I should be.


Very. You should be very outraged/ecstatic.

scottydoesntknow: Huh, Specs Liquor has done this for years. Doesn't really bug me.


I was going to make this same point. Also, I didn't know you were in Houston.
 
2012-07-13 08:09:59 PM

RobertBruce: If you pay with a credit card the merchant is charged for it, subby. Often around 1 percent but it varies.


I believe Wal-Mart pays 2%. A mom-n-pop is lucky to clear 91 cents on the dollar. Hell, my credit/debit card rebates me 1.5% of every transaction, no exceptions - so I'm guessing 4-6% is average.
 
2012-07-13 08:10:27 PM

MisterTweak: Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash, instead of with, say, a certain piece of green plastic that only pays me 96 cents out of every dollar?


You've always been able to give a "cash discount." What you couldn't do was apply a SURCHARGE. That distinction between discounting from a set price and surcharging above that price is a fine one but an important one.

I don't expect major retailers will change how they do business... they don't want to dick with a X% more for credit policy. Dealing in cash alone is enough of a hassle I expect they'd be willing to just leave things as is. Small independent places, however, would prefer to deal in cash, so they may well go nuts with this. However, they've probably been doing this already with signage that says things like "5 cents/gallon discount for cash."
 
2012-07-13 08:20:15 PM
It's part of the contract a biz owner signs to accept debit and charge cards. For Charge Cards they can set a minimum--I think up to 35 dollars for charge card, for debit cards they're supposed to accept debit/bank card for even small purchases.


The Cash Discount thing is a red-herring as if the VISA/Master Card found out about that---the merchant would get yanked (in theory) for breaking their contract with VISA/Master Card.
 
2012-07-13 08:21:15 PM
And why would they do that? People will walk away.
 
2012-07-13 08:21:28 PM

MisterTweak: RobertBruce: If you pay with a credit card the merchant is charged for it, subby. Often around 1 percent but it varies.

I believe Wal-Mart pays 2%. A mom-n-pop is lucky to clear 91 cents on the dollar. Hell, my credit/debit card rebates me 1.5% of every transaction, no exceptions - so I'm guessing 4-6% is average.


It's between 2 and 4 % depending on your processor, volume and any other concessions you negotiate/limits they put on your merchant agreement.
 
2012-07-13 08:34:37 PM

Shostie: scottydoesntknow: Huh, Specs Liquor has done this for years. Doesn't really bug me.

I was going to make this same point. Also, I didn't know you were in Houston.


They are upgrading my Spec's!

Also, there is a credit card upcharge at Splendor's Cabaret as well.
 
2012-07-13 08:36:41 PM

MisterTweak: Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash, instead of with, say, a certain piece of green plastic that only pays me 96 cents out of every dollar?


Because the Visa/MasterCard corporation put that in a stipulation when you sign on to accept credit cards. Read the EULA..for that as a merchant. With debit cards..you can't set minimum--by Fed Law.
With credit cards you (the merchant) can set a minimum. But you still have to sign on their (V/MC) terms of service to use their network and not offer 'cash discounts'.
 
2012-07-13 08:55:25 PM
The only interchange fees that were regulated were debit. It was broken into 2 categories: regulated & unregulated. Regulated banks have assets > $10Bil. Unregulated is obviously
The interchange fee is broken in to both a percentage & transaction fee. Regulated debit cards have an interchange cost of 0.05% & $0.22. Unregulated was the old rate of 0.95% & $0.20. That was recently lowered. I believe it is now 0.80% & $0.15. These fees are paid to the card issuing bank. So, if you carry a Chase debit card .05% & $0.22 per trxn of everything you buy goes to them. Your credit union card is likely the higher, unregulated rate.

On top of interchange you have you have what is called the assessment. Visa is 0.11%, Mastercard is 0.11-0.13% depending on the card type. This is paid directly to the respective card brand: Visa, Mastercard, Discover.

On top of that you have the processor mark up. This is unregulated & probably the most confusing part of pricing for any business owner as there are numerous billing schemes available. Knowing which one is best requires math. As we know, most people do not like math.

Large volume retailers often receive what is known as Pass Thru pricing. This is where the processor adds a flat markup on top of the Interchange & Assessments. If you negotiate a rate of Interchange & Assessment + 0.30% & $0.10 it works like this;

Swiped debit interchange: 0.05% & $0.22 + Assessment 0.11% + Mark up 0.30% & 0.10 = Total rate of 0.46% & 0.32.

That Delta miles reward card has a higher interchange. I believe it is 1.65% & 0.10 for a swiped transaction. That card would have a rate of 2.06% & $0.20.

Easy math: $100 trxn on debit costs the store $0.78. The card with the free airline tickets: $2.26.

They get f*cked on small ticket items. That has a completely different interchange cost. I believe it's around 1.06% & $0.05.
 
2012-07-13 09:02:52 PM

scottydoesntknow: Huh, Specs Liquor has done this for years. Doesn't really bug me.


Yup. And every time I go to the warehouse store off Smith I'm in danger of spending WAY more than I intentionally did walking in.
 
2012-07-13 09:20:58 PM
BSABSVR: Has the tl;dr version right.

BobtheFascist: With the Tolstoy version.

I run approx. 700K through annually. When all is said and done my CC effective rate is about 2.75%. That includes all the fees(statements, batchouts, higher rated corporate cards, blah blah shiat they throw in when they've worn you down). Debits come in under at 1%. I wouldn't charge more for someone running a cc because I'd look like an asshole. I'll certainly cut someone a break for cash on a big purchase and see that as part of the price negotiation. Also, I've told more than a few younger punks that I won't sell them a $1.49 soda on a credit card. They look incredulous, but I explain it to them and they usually understand.
 
2012-07-13 09:24:40 PM
Great, now I can get more crap from the douche that runs the gas station near me when I pay with an Amex.

/the only good part is the fact that it's been the same conversation for 2 years now and I find that strangely amusing.
 
2012-07-13 09:24:57 PM

But Wait There's More: Is there a fee if it's a debit card instead of CC card?


Yes. The processing fee is put into place on any transaction using plastic and rates vary depending on CC vs Debit.

/Used to program terminals for TransFirst.
//Always ask which is cheaper (depending on the plan) for the merchant. They like that.
///Farking hate that industry after working in it.
 
2012-07-13 09:29:07 PM
Speaking as a merchant -- Just assume everyone is going to pay with a cc. If they don't... bonus for you. There. All better.
 
2012-07-13 09:29:38 PM
The only places that ever gave me discounts for paying with cash is headshops.

Are we trying to make more businesses in America like headshops?

I approve of this.
 
2012-07-13 09:29:56 PM
Something I've always wondered about (and hopefully someone here can answer); Cards all have processing fees, which are apparently variable. Which sucks for merchants. However, the cash operations of a business aren't free, are they? It costs something to count, process, or deliver cash to a business, right? How does this compare to card transactions?
 
2012-07-13 09:30:46 PM

SearchN: //Always ask which is cheaper (depending on the plan) for the merchant. They like that.
///Farking hate that industry after working in it


Yes. It's debit with me by far. And yes the processing industry is the sleaziest bunch of criminal pests that I have to deal with 3 times a day every gotdam day on the phone. It's started slowing down once I agreed to meet with every one of their reps every time and then told him to GTFO immediately upon his appointment arrival. Sucks for those sales reps but I got to my wit's end and f*ck them.
 
2012-07-13 09:33:16 PM

Gig103: MisterTweak: Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash, instead of with, say, a certain piece of green plastic that only pays me 96 cents out of every dollar?

If you don't like paying 4% in fees, don't accept charge cards. That is your right as a merchant, and it's my right as a consumer to pay however I choose.

I actually always assumed merchants price everything assuming a 100% charge rate, and just make more off the cash people.


I use plastic almost exclusively. If stores start charging me more for it I will go somewhere else. If they all end up doing it I will deal with it but wont shop at the places that did it first.
 
2012-07-13 09:33:34 PM

demonwolf04: Something I've always wondered about (and hopefully someone here can answer); Cards all have processing fees, which are apparently variable. Which sucks for merchants. However, the cash operations of a business aren't free, are they? It costs something to count, process, or deliver cash to a business, right? How does this compare to card transactions?


Well, we have banking fees. But that is miniscule to the processing fees. I think my total for cash deposit and check writing is $30 or so. CC processing is well north of $1000. Not sure I understand your question though.
 
2012-07-13 09:34:49 PM

pounddawg: Speaking as a merchant -- Just assume everyone is going to pay with a cc. If they don't... bonus for you. There. All better.


You go ahead and do that while I undercut your price a little.
 
2012-07-13 09:34:58 PM

demonwolf04: Something I've always wondered about (and hopefully someone here can answer); Cards all have processing fees, which are apparently variable. Which sucks for merchants. However, the cash operations of a business aren't free, are they? It costs something to count, process, or deliver cash to a business, right? How does this compare to card transactions?


Cash cost is probably a hard to define fee. There is a certain amount of time it costs to count the cash and balance the drawers that can be calculated by an hourly rate. But with automated registers that distribute coins and tell the cashier the amount, I haven't found cash any slower than card. The only costs I can assume is that cost of going to the bank however many times a week to turn in cash and checks and withdraw coins and cash for operations.
 
2012-07-13 09:36:48 PM

dugitman: Also, I've told more than a few younger punks that I won't sell them a $1.49 soda on a credit card. They look incredulous, but I explain it to them and they usually understand.


That's reasonable. I usually use my rewards CC for purchases over $20 anyways....I have no interest in hurting the profit margin that a "mom-and-pop" corner store gets, and i always have some cash on hand...
 
2012-07-13 09:36:59 PM

MisterTweak: Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash, instead of with, say, a certain piece of green plastic that only pays me 96 cents out of every dollar?


Cash isn't free to the merchant. Your bank charges for rolled coin and cash services. Some charge for counting cash deposits. Then there's loss. Cash businesses often factor in a loss from sticky fingers in the register. Lastly, study after study has shown that consumers spend more when they laying down plastic rather than currency. It's why Vegas uses chips.
 
2012-07-13 09:39:13 PM

dugitman: SearchN: //Always ask which is cheaper (depending on the plan) for the merchant. They like that.
///Farking hate that industry after working in it

Yes. It's debit with me by far. And yes the processing industry is the sleaziest bunch of criminal pests that I have to deal with 3 times a day every gotdam day on the phone. It's started slowing down once I agreed to meet with every one of their reps every time and then told him to GTFO immediately upon his appointment arrival. Sucks for those sales reps but I got to my wit's end and f*ck them.


Did not know you were a merchant. Ever heard of Ghosting? Freaks me the fark out and I don't discuss it in public. You have my email address if you are curious.

/The insurance rates for processing companies are insanely high due to the chance you might get Ghosted.
//Sadly, it's not hard to do.
 
2012-07-13 09:39:42 PM

SearchN: But Wait There's More: Is there a fee if it's a debit card instead of CC card?

Yes. The processing fee is put into place on any transaction using plastic and rates vary depending on CC vs Debit.



There's a fee to the merchant for CC that's much higher for CCs. Debit card are much lower for the merchant. The merchant can't set min purchase on DEBIT cards...but can set one on Credit card purchases. A fine point to be sure. Link

And I'm wrong on the cash discount thing..as of Oct 2011 that's fine now. Overruling the MC/Visa contracts. But there's lots of leeway for the merchant for Credit Cards to charge surcharges and set min purchases For CC...not so with Debit Cards.
 
2012-07-13 09:39:49 PM

jst3p: I use plastic almost exclusively. If stores start charging me more for it I will go somewhere else. If they all end up doing it I will deal with it but wont shop at the places that did it first.


That's the thing. Good businesses are not going to start charging you more. We've already incorporated the fees and % into our budgets/bizplans. The extra pennies I would make off your 1 transaction is not worth pissing you off and losing your patronage in the future. The only thing I like to remind people of is to please not charge $1-$2 items on your card at small businesses. That constrained grimace you see on the owner's face is the knowledge he just handed you your coke and handed your entire payment to his cc processor.
 
2012-07-13 09:40:32 PM

nytmare: pounddawg: Speaking as a merchant -- Just assume everyone is going to pay with a cc. If they don't... bonus for you. There. All better.

You go ahead and do that while I undercut your price a little.


Go for it. My service is better than yours so it makes up for it.
 
2012-07-13 09:41:26 PM

RobertBruce: If you pay with a credit card the merchant is charged for it, subby. Often around 1 percent but it varies.


My charges to accept credit cards average just over 3%, after all fees are assessed. Some cards are as little as 1.35% + fees, most are 2.99% + fees (rewards cards, ffolks!).

So. Yes, it "varies"

/feh
//bleagh
 
2012-07-13 09:41:49 PM
It isn't cash! Go for it. Just say 'charge it!'
 
2012-07-13 09:45:34 PM
This is good because it forces the credit cards to compete with cash on a relatively even basis, which means they are likely to reduce credit charges. As someone who pays almost exclusively by credit, I am likely to see a bit of price increase but not as much as seems obvious at first. It also helps the mom-and-pops who are hurt by the current price structure since there is a per-transaction charge (and mom-and-pops tend to make lots of small sales).

The prohibition against surcharging credit card transactions I've always considered to be highly anti-competitive.
 
2012-07-13 09:50:15 PM

dugitman: BobtheFascist: With the Tolstoy version.

I run approx. 700K through annually. When all is said and done my CC effective rate is about 2.75%. That includes all the fees(statements, batchouts, higher rated corporate cards, blah blah shiat they throw in when they've worn you down). Debits come in under at 1%. I wouldn't charge more for someone running a cc because I'd look like an asshole. I'll certainly cut someone a break for cash on a big purchase and see that as part of the price negotiation. Also, I've told more than a few younger punks that I won't sell them a $1.49 soda on a credit card. They look incredulous, but I explain it to them and they usually understand.


The effective rate is a tough thing to make a final judgment on. It's the numbers within the numbers. If you're doing the majority of your trxns as swiped I'd say it's a bit high, but the types of cards you accept the most can have a large affect on it. If you're accepting 40-50% debit it is certainly high. If you're accepting a large number of fleet, corporate, purchasing, etc it's not bad at all since many of those cards have an interchange cost over 2% themselves.

I've never heard of anyone being punished for offering a cash discount. I see it advertised in a lot of gas stations. I know the old regs used to say you could not charge a convenience fee, but you could offer a cash discount. I haven't had a need to look up the new ones.
 
pla
2012-07-13 09:50:22 PM
pounddawg : Go for it. My service is better than yours so it makes up for it.

The lines around the block at the gas station with a mere penny lower than everyone else in the area would like to disagree with you.

Me, I don't even bother looking at the price for gas. The major retailers will all have within a few cents of each other in a given area, and on the rate occasions I fill up at a no-name for a $0.25 more than everyone else, I do so because I got there on fumes at 2am and have no other choices.


SearchN : Ever heard of Ghosting? Freaks me the fark out and I don't discuss it in public. You have my email address if you are curious.

Can we not do that shiat? Really kinda annoying - Make a point, or don't. "Ghosting is a form of identity theft in which someone steals the identity, and sometimes even the role within society, of a specific dead person (the "ghost") who is not widely known to be deceased. Usually, the person who steals this identity (the "ghoster") is roughly the same age that the ghost would have been if still alive, so that any documents citing the birthdate of the ghost will not be conspicuously incorrect if appropriated by the thief now claiming to be that person."

Why, exactly, does that freak you out?
 
2012-07-13 09:50:42 PM

Ed Willy: Cash cost is probably a hard to define fee. There is a certain amount of time it costs to count the cash and balance the drawers that can be calculated by an hourly rate. But with automated registers that distribute coins and tell the cashier the amount, I haven't found cash any slower than card. The only costs I can assume is that cost of going to the bank however many times a week to turn in cash and checks and withdraw coins and cash for operations.


So would you say the outrage from merchants regarding the costs for credit customers is a resistance to change? E.g. paying cash operations is acceptable but paying for the CC processing fees IS NEW AND DIFFERENT AND I WON'T DO IT.

I've seen a (brick and mortar) business or two in the last couple years that went to card only, no cash. Is that a viable option or good business sense?

I only ask because I pretty much only use card anymore. Debit for the most part. But it's much more efficient for me, since I always lose coins, and I lose track of bills frequently, so I lose less cash.
 
2012-07-13 09:52:01 PM

PapaChester: The only places that ever gave me discounts for paying with cash is headshops.

Are we trying to make more businesses in America like headshops?

I approve of this.


Are you asking, I frequently ask if there is a cash discount. Small businesses often will give one, large chains not so much, but I've asked for and been given one at Best Buy on a scratch and dent TV.

Perhaps you don't shop at the giant head shop chain Bongs 'R Us Dude.
 
2012-07-13 09:52:27 PM

sagiphile: MisterTweak: Why the hell shouldn't I be able to give a discount to a customer who pays with cash, instead of with, say, a certain piece of green plastic that only pays me 96 cents out of every dollar?

Cash isn't free to the merchant. Your bank charges for rolled coin and cash services. Some charge for counting cash deposits. Then there's loss. Cash businesses often factor in a loss from sticky fingers in the register. Lastly, study after study has shown that consumers spend more when they laying down plastic rather than currency. It's why Vegas uses chips.


This.
Most of those armor cars rolling around town are cash carriers between big retailers and banks. The armor car companies often count and recount money for their clients. That cannot be cheap. Arguing over pennies that add up is just part of business. Each transaction cost the merchant to carry out no matter which form of payment.

/1.5 cents to make a penny
 
2012-07-13 09:53:23 PM
I'm currently paying off my credit cards. After that I do not plan to use them much at all. Only on emergency basis or a big purchase that I need like if I needed a new laptop. Other than that I am going back to living the old fashioned way- I have what cash I have in the bank and that's it. I'm done with credit card fees.
 
2012-07-13 09:53:55 PM

pla:
SearchN : Ever heard of Ghosting? Freaks me the fark out and I don't discuss it in public. You have my email address if you are curious.

Can we not do that shiat? Really kinda annoying - Make a point, or don't. "Ghosting is a form of identity theft in which someone steals the identity, and sometimes even the role within society, of a specific dead person (the "ghost") who is not widely known to be deceased. Usually, the person who steals this identity (the "ghoster") is roughly the same age that the ghost would have been if still alive, so that any documents citing the birthdate of the ghost will not be conspicuously incorrect if appropriated by the thief now claiming to be that person."

Why, exactly, does that freak you out?


Think larger, much much larger. There is the normal ID theft. There is another level. EIP, feel free to ask.
 
2012-07-13 09:58:36 PM

BobtheFascist: The effective rate is a tough thing to make a final judgment on. It's the numbers within the numbers. If you're doing the majority of your trxns as swiped I'd say it's a bit high, but the types of cards you accept the most can have a large affect on it. If you're accepting 40-50% debit it is certainly high. If you're accepting a large number of fleet, corporate, purchasing, etc it's not bad at all since many of those cards have an interchange cost over 2% themselves.

I've never heard of anyone being punished for offering a cash discount. I see it advertised in a lot of gas stations. I know the old regs used to say you could not charge a convenience fee, but you could offer a cash discount. I haven't had a need to look up the new ones.


The 2.75 I listed is for the credit cards only. My debit card runs at the bulk minimum which I cant remember exactly (.05% + .20 maybe?). Nearly 100% is swiped. I figure the effective rate as total CC$/ total CCpullout on my statement. So if I did 10K in CC sales and was charged $275 on the 1st of the month. For clarity, I throw all the statement/batch etc fees into the CC formula. I just run the debit card total alone. The biggest problem is making sure my employees run it through as debit every time and reassuring customers into doing it. They don't like putting in their pin, dont know it, think they will get charged, whatever.
 
2012-07-13 10:00:24 PM

MisterTweak: RobertBruce: If you pay with a credit card the merchant is charged for it, subby. Often around 1 percent but it varies.

I believe Wal-Mart pays 2%. A mom-n-pop is lucky to clear 91 cents on the dollar. Hell, my credit/debit card rebates me 1.5% of every transaction, no exceptions - so I'm guessing 4-6% is average.


Our garden center is technically a "mom and pop" -- literally owned by my parents.

We introduced PIN debit this year, which recently had the fees capped. Combined with good rates on CC processing we're running about 1.9% in fees for all electronic purchases. Lower than ever before, even though we're now taking AMEX and Discover which cost more. AMEX is the worst. If we dropped them it would be even better but we're probably not going to be that penny pinching about it. Wouldn't hurt us much if we did though. Only one sale was dropped last year (out of 120,000) because they didn't have a Visa/MC alternative.

GAT_00: And why would they do that? People will walk away.


Yep. Plus there are huge benefits to dealing mostly in electronic transfers. Cashiers can't steal that money, you aren't sending a guy to the bank with gobs of cash that can be stolen, less time is spent counting money when a cash drawer is changed out at the end of a shift because there's less cash in there, and you don't have people needing a "clean" drawer in the middle of their shift because the one they started with got full.

Plus it's just faster. Shortly after rolling out our new POS system (open sourced, I wrote some of it) we noticed an average of a 6 second delay on receipt printing. Pretty small. But when we ran the numbers that 6 seconds added up to 10 man hours on a busy day. Eliminate that and we can pay somebody to open up another lane to make checkout faster, or put them on the floor to answer questions. So, I fixed it.

Simply making change easily takes more than 6 seconds. Somebody writing a check? *shudder* That takes for ever. Credit/Debit goes so much faster and if you can put more people through a lane that eliminates the cost of building another one which is kind of costly.

So, there's less vulnerabilities and a reduction in labor. Plus, like you (kinda) said, that's just how people want to pay and they won't stand for being punished for it.
 
2012-07-13 10:06:44 PM

scottydoesntknow: Huh, Specs Liquor has done this for years. Doesn't really bug me.


Damn shame that the downtown Specs is in downtown and has shiatty parking. That need to move that to katy yo.
 
2012-07-13 10:09:19 PM
As a store manager who's been following this very closely for the past couple o' years, I'd like to point out that it's the Credit Card companies who are claiming that retailers can now charge more if you pay with plastic.

They just lost a big fight, and they're pissy about it.
 
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