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(Reason Magazine)   The Mob has nothing on the Dons who run the California Board of Equalization   (reason.com) divider line 176
    More: Interesting, California Board of Equalization, public spending, Mexican food, tax collections, legal representation, Santa Ana, progressive movement  
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10158 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Jul 2012 at 5:01 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-07-13 05:02:51 PM  
Anyone willing to click on a reason link and explain what they're crying on now?
 
2012-07-13 05:03:47 PM  
Overtaxation of food trucks.
 
2012-07-13 05:04:57 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Anyone willing to click on a reason link and explain what they're crying on now?


Robbing Pedro to pay Paul.
 
2012-07-13 05:08:43 PM  
Wait, wait... So when the libruls help out the poor it's class warfare and awful but when they try to make them pay taxes it's also class warfare and awful? So the GOP doesn't really care either way they just hate anything the islamo commie Marxist Stalinist Leninist reverse vampire libs?
 
2012-07-13 05:09:22 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Anyone willing to click on a reason link and explain what they're crying on now?


Cheating (spanish-speaking immigrant) food truck owners out of an honest day's pay because California can't run a proper budget. The sort of abuse of power that you'd probably be up in arms about if a Republican was involved.
 
2012-07-13 05:11:28 PM  
Instead of charging sales tax on each item, taco trucks guess and send in what they think the sales taxes would have been. The government is cracking down on them.

Obviously, this is all Liberal Democrats fault, because isn't everything?
 
2012-07-13 05:11:38 PM  
Wasn't the Board of Equalization something in Harrison Bergeron?

And California has one.
 
2012-07-13 05:11:53 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Anyone willing to click on a reason link and explain what they're crying on now?


Taco trucks are crying about having to remit sales taxes to the Board of Equalization.

They are claiming that the BoE is unreasonably taxing them based on estimates, when they should be filing their own damn sales tax returns.

Look, I'm sorry that you can't afford to pay someone to educate you about your tax liabilities. That doesn't free you from them.

If you don't file a sales tax return, the BoE will file one for you. So, it is in your best interest to file one that is accurate.
 
2012-07-13 05:14:27 PM  
Wait, wait... So when the libruls help out the poor it's class warfare and awful but when they try to make them pay taxes it's also class warfare and awful? So the GOP doesn't really care either way they just hate anything the islamo commie Marxist Stalinist Leninist reverse vampire libs?

The Libtards idea of helping the poor is to give them free money and make them dependent on the state.

The Conservatives idea of helping the poor involves easing the tax and regulatory burden on them so the poor can help themselves.

One path leads to a collapsing society (i.e. California, Greece, USSR, etc.)

The other leads to a strong and durable society (Singapore, Hong Kong, early 20th century America, etc.)
 
2012-07-13 05:15:13 PM  
That does sound pretty douchebaggy. If true.
 
2012-07-13 05:18:04 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Taco trucks are crying about having to remit sales taxes to the Board of Equalization.


Not quite true. They have previously paid without (this level of ) complaint. They're mad because they used to be able to estimate their own taxable sales, and now some government bureaucrat is doing the estimating.

If the tax office doesn't think an individual truck owner is being honest, they can investigate. But you'll not convince me that some overfed Bob in a cheap suit is gonna have any idea how many sales a food truck makes without some pretty compelling evidence.
 
2012-07-13 05:19:43 PM  
Chico don't be discouraged. The Man he aint so hard to understand.
 
2012-07-13 05:19:51 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Satanic_Hamster: Anyone willing to click on a reason link and explain what they're crying on now?

Taco trucks are crying about having to remit sales taxes to the Board of Equalization.

They are claiming that the BoE is unreasonably taxing them based on estimates, when they should be filing their own damn sales tax returns.

Look, I'm sorry that you can't afford to pay someone to educate you about your tax liabilities. That doesn't free you from them.

If you don't file a sales tax return, the BoE will file one for you. So, it is in your best interest to file one that is accurate.


You being an asshole on Fark? Absolutely shocking, I could never imagine that you would be in a hurry to post your weapons-grade dickishness because you usually seem such a decent and humane guy. Color me disappointed ::sad face::.
 
2012-07-13 05:20:34 PM  


The Conservatives idea of helping the poor involves easing the tax and regulatory burden on them so the poor can help themselves.



So the huge multinational GE is the poor?
 
2012-07-13 05:20:55 PM  

untaken_name: They're mad because they used to be able to estimate their own taxable sales, and now some government bureaucrat is doing the estimating.


And all the gnashing of teeth would go away if they would, you know, actually keep an accurate account of sales broken down by which are taxable and which are not. You know, like any other retail business has to do.
 
2012-07-13 05:21:58 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Look, I'm sorry that you can't afford to pay someone to educate you about your tax liabilities. That doesn't free you from them.

If you don't file a sales tax return, the BoE will file one for you. So, it is in your best interest to file one that is accurate.


What if your "liabilities" are completely arbitrary and capricious? They are accurate. Or, at least they are more accurate than the returns filed by the Equalization people.

Many told stories of long waits, complicated audits, confusing instructions, unhelpful officials, of bureaucratic indifference. Then BOE reports them to the IRS, they say, which triggers a federal audit. Those who work other jobs have their wages garnished to pay the state.

You have no sympathy for these people?
 
2012-07-13 05:22:09 PM  

mark12A: Wait, wait... So when the libruls help out the poor it's class warfare and awful but when they try to make them pay taxes it's also class warfare and awful? So the GOP doesn't really care either way they just hate anything the islamo commie Marxist Stalinist Leninist reverse vampire libs?

The Libtards idea of helping the poor is to give them free money and make them dependent on the state.

The Conservatives idea of helping the poor involves easing the tax and regulatory burden on them so the poor can help themselves.

One path leads to a collapsing society (i.e. California, Greece, USSR, etc.)

The other leads to a strong and durable society (Singapore, Hong Kong, early 20th century America, etc.)


Yeah, cuz the poor are constantly being beat down by taxes and regulations. They'd have decent incomes if it weren't for the Man preventing their children from picking coal out of piles of slag for $2 a ton. And that earned-income tax credit, that is DEVASTATING to the poor.

Early 20th century America was beset by chronic industrial underemployment, and endemic farm poverty that fed same. The "prosperity" of the 1920s was a bubble that led to the Great Depression. Which was ended by massive government borrowing and spending. Find another example.
 
2012-07-13 05:23:09 PM  

Bender The Offender: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Satanic_Hamster: Anyone willing to click on a reason link and explain what they're crying on now?

Taco trucks are crying about having to remit sales taxes to the Board of Equalization.

They are claiming that the BoE is unreasonably taxing them based on estimates, when they should be filing their own damn sales tax returns.

Look, I'm sorry that you can't afford to pay someone to educate you about your tax liabilities. That doesn't free you from them.

If you don't file a sales tax return, the BoE will file one for you. So, it is in your best interest to file one that is accurate.

You being an asshole on Fark? Absolutely shocking, I could never imagine that you would be in a hurry to post your weapons-grade dickishness because you usually seem such a decent and humane guy. Color me disappointed ::sad face::.


I know. I'm such an asshole for actually thinking that businesses and people actually know and adhere to their tax obligations. What a douche I am for not whining about how these guys have likely been cheating the State out of legitimate sales tax revenue, revenue we sorely need. These poor poor taco truck owners shouldn't have to pay taxes accurately. They should just be able to send in whatever they think is appropriate.
 
2012-07-13 05:25:15 PM  

phatjanus: The Conservatives idea of helping the poor involves easing the tax and regulatory burden on them so the poor can help themselves.



So the huge multinational GE is the poor?


The GOP is not the same as conservatives. The GOP is the same as the Democrats insofar as they want to increase government power; they just want to use it to different ends (which ironically makes them also left leaning, although they will never admit it).
 
2012-07-13 05:25:31 PM  

jigger: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Look, I'm sorry that you can't afford to pay someone to educate you about your tax liabilities. That doesn't free you from them.

If you don't file a sales tax return, the BoE will file one for you. So, it is in your best interest to file one that is accurate.

What if your "liabilities" are completely arbitrary and capricious? They are accurate. Or, at least they are more accurate than the returns filed by the Equalization people.

Many told stories of long waits, complicated audits, confusing instructions, unhelpful officials, of bureaucratic indifference. Then BOE reports them to the IRS, they say, which triggers a federal audit. Those who work other jobs have their wages garnished to pay the state.

You have no sympathy for these people?


They aren't arbitrary or capricious. The sales tax rules are pretty definitive, and to the best of my knowledge, prepared food is not exempt from sales tax like unprepared foods are. If they filed sales tax returns with accurate, documented information, the BoE would not estimate and assess tax based on the information that they have.

I really do not have sympathy for people who decide to go into business without knowing all of the tax and regulatory implications.
 
2012-07-13 05:25:36 PM  

mark12A: Wait, wait... So when the libruls help out the poor it's class warfare and awful but when they try to make them pay taxes it's also class warfare and awful? So the GOP doesn't really care either way they just hate anything the islamo commie Marxist Stalinist Leninist reverse vampire libs?

The Libtards idea of helping the poor is to give them free money and make them dependent on the state.

The Conservatives idea of helping the poor involves easing the tax and regulatory burden on them so the poor can help themselves.

One path leads to a collapsing society (i.e. California, Greece, USSR, etc.)

The other leads to a strong and durable society (Singapore, Hong Kong, early 20th century America, etc.)


2/10 Your obvious bias coupled with poor facts and no citation make you hilarious.

I think the whole problem here is that somehow, people are being allowed to estimate their taxes. I don't know if any of you have met many food truck operators, brown,black,or white, but they are not usually the quickest fishes in the sea and I would never take my mathematics to them help me with. Much less estimable taxes. Also in my experience, the white owners lie and steal more. Go figure.
 
2012-07-13 05:26:07 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: untaken_name: They're mad because they used to be able to estimate their own taxable sales, and now some government bureaucrat is doing the estimating.

And all the gnashing of teeth would go away if they would, you know, actually keep an accurate account of sales broken down by which are taxable and which are not. You know, like any other retail business has to do.


Right, because it is the inherent dishonesty of the many disparate food truck vendors which changed, not the financial situation of the state....hey, believe what you want, bro. If you want to worship at the altar of the state, be my guest. Just know that people with common sense realize that the system worked fine for years, and that what changed is the desperation of the state for cash, not the cupidity of the truck owners.
 
2012-07-13 05:27:18 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Look, I'm sorry that you can't afford to pay someone to educate you about your tax liabilities. That doesn't free you from them.

If you don't file a sales tax return, the BoE will file one for you. So, it is in your best interest to file one that is accurate.


Yep. Keep even a basic record of your sales & remit your tax (at CA's ungodly rate) like everyone else. These are the same kind of folk as the Katrina owner/operators who were upset about being unable to claim reimbursement because they hadn't filed a 1040 in the past 20 years.

I'm sure it was great while it lasted, but it's over.
 
2012-07-13 05:28:00 PM  

untaken_name: the system worked fine for years


Sure, for business owners that wanted to skirt the law and underreport sales tax collections. For the State, not so much.
 
2012-07-13 05:28:38 PM  
Well since it's on Reason, we can start by assuming this 100% false and go from there.
 
2012-07-13 05:29:33 PM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-07-13 05:31:21 PM  

untaken_name: ...Just know that people with common sense realize that the system worked fine for years, and that what changed is the desperation of the state for cash, not the cupidity of the truck owners.


Yeah, that whole "trust small business owners to pay their fair share" approach worked fine for years over in Greece too. After all, people are basically honest when it comes to paying taxes.
 
2012-07-13 05:35:36 PM  

Allen. The end.: Overtaxation of food trucks.


Either you did not read or you did not understand the article. Taxation was only part of the story. The real story is the strong armed tactics used by the California government to harass small business owners.
 
2012-07-13 05:35:56 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: untaken_name: the system worked fine for years

Sure, for business owners that wanted to skirt the law and underreport sales tax collections. For the State, not so much.


Again, if the state tax collection agency feels that someone is not following the law, it is their responsibility to investigate on a case-by-case basis, not change the rules for everyone in a way which just so happens to give that agency enormous power. Do you really believe that a government agency is capable of estimating sales correctly for so many different trucks in so many different situations? Should the truck owners be penalized for not performing to the standards of the tax collection office?
 
2012-07-13 05:36:11 PM  
They were probably under reporting their sales before, and it's time to "pay your fair share."
 
2012-07-13 05:36:35 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: They aren't arbitrary or capricious.


The BOE, truck owners say, used to tax them based on realistic sales estimates and used to account for the fact that many of the items they sell are not taxable items. They say the BOE also used to work with them to make their tax bills and treat them respectfully. No more.

The truck owners say the state is handing them tax bills for tens of thousands of dollars based on unrealistic estimates of their taxable sales.


They used to tax them one amount, then they upped the amount considerably and are going at them whole hog
treating them like criminals.

That's not arbitrary?

mbillips: Yeah, cuz the poor are constantly being beat down by taxes and regulations.


They are if they're trying to run a business, at least in California.

Remember the homeless guy in San Francisco that shined shoes and he almost had enough money to put down a deposit on an apartment, then a regulator found out about him and made him pay for a permit that wiped out his savings prolonging the time he had to be homeless? Maybe you call that anecdotal but I call it illustrative.

These people here are immigrants, man. You know they don't have papers. You know they aren't getting income tax credits.
 
2012-07-13 05:36:59 PM  

Sentient: untaken_name: ...Just know that people with common sense realize that the system worked fine for years, and that what changed is the desperation of the state for cash, not the cupidity of the truck owners.

Yeah, that whole "trust small business owners to pay their fair share" approach worked fine for years over in Greece too. After all, people are basically honest when it comes to paying taxes.


You think the collapse in Greece was due to small business owners not paying taxes? Wow. Just wow. You have one of those ironic usernames, don't you?
 
2012-07-13 05:37:15 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Anyone willing to click on a reason link and explain what they're crying on now?


Some blogger met with some food truck owners who claim the government is being a dick to them. No supporting evidence provided. No one from the state quoted.

Could be true, could be bullshiat.
 
2012-07-13 05:37:42 PM  

mark12A: Wait, wait... So when the libruls help out the poor it's class warfare and awful but when they try to make them pay taxes it's also class warfare and awful? So the GOP doesn't really care either way they just hate anything the islamo commie Marxist Stalinist Leninist reverse vampire libs?

The Libtards idea of helping the poor is to give them free money and make them dependent on the state.

The Conservatives idea of helping the poor involves easing the tax and regulatory burden on the Rich so the poor Rich can help themselves.

One path leads to a collapsing society (i.e. California, Greece, USSR, etc.)

The other leads to a strong and durable society (Singapore, Hong Kong, early 20th century America, etc.)


If you have been paying attention to the tax rates, the conservatives are only interested in help the rich get richer. Which doesn't help the poor at all.
 
2012-07-13 05:37:49 PM  
The food truck owners worked in a business where they had no fixed storefront that could be monitored, most of their transaction were small, and said transactions were cash based. All of this and they got to estimate their own taxes.

Obviously people were lying about their take. In fact there is an incentive, if Food Truck A underestimates taxes while Food Truck B always is honest, Truck A can likely undercut B's prices.
 
2012-07-13 05:37:59 PM  
You guys missed this part of the article:

When approached for comment, one of the owners pulled out his 1040 from 2011 and pointed to the gross sales line. "See, right here. You can see I only sold $312 worth of tacos all of last year." When questioned how he was able to drive to the protest in his 2012 Cadillac Escalade, the owner commented "That doesn't matter. What I'm trying to say is that there's no way I should have to pay taxes on their 'estimated' $10,000 worth of sales. I clearly only sold $312 worth of food. Just ask MasterThief... he knows I wouldn't lie to the government!"
 
2012-07-13 05:38:49 PM  

paygun: They were probably under reporting their sales before, and it's time to "pay your fair share."


Everyone has to chip in on that high speed rail project! It's only fair!
 
2012-07-13 05:38:54 PM  
To be fair, people get really pissed off when you mess around with their vintage stereo equipment.
 
2012-07-13 05:39:04 PM  

The_Six_Fingered_Man: Bender The Offender: The_Six_Fingered_Man: Satanic_Hamster: Anyone willing to click on a reason link and explain what they're crying on now?

Taco trucks are crying about having to remit sales taxes to the Board of Equalization.

They are claiming that the BoE is unreasonably taxing them based on estimates, when they should be filing their own damn sales tax returns.

Look, I'm sorry that you can't afford to pay someone to educate you about your tax liabilities. That doesn't free you from them.

If you don't file a sales tax return, the BoE will file one for you. So, it is in your best interest to file one that is accurate.

You being an asshole on Fark? Absolutely shocking, I could never imagine that you would be in a hurry to post your weapons-grade dickishness because you usually seem such a decent and humane guy. Color me disappointed ::sad face::.

I know. I'm such an asshole for actually thinking that businesses and people actually know and adhere to their tax obligations. What a douche I am for not whining about how these guys have likely been cheating the State out of legitimate sales tax revenue, revenue we sorely need. These poor poor taco truck owners shouldn't have to pay taxes accurately. They should just be able to send in whatever they think is appropriate.


You poor, poor victim. I know, having one of the blacks as president has changed everything for you. Of course there's no way a bloated, corrupt bureaucracy could be targeting an unsympathetic target as a means of generating misleading evidence to justify their budgetary existence. It must be those filthy brown people unwilling to contribute to the public coffers, because their brown, and let's face it, spanish speaking.
 
2012-07-13 05:39:52 PM  
To be fair to the truck owners, every small business cheats on its taxes. Some of them are just smarter than others, with separate cash-only books and thousands in "write-offs" and "business expenses" that just happen to up in their living rooms and driveways.

The big banks might do it on a much more visible national scale, but make no mistake, the entrepreneurs at the bottom are mostly crooks too. The ones that aren't just go bankrupt a little later than the ones who skim every other dollar out of the till.

/Self-taught in tax-avoision, there's no way to compete if you don't.
 
2012-07-13 05:40:29 PM  
If only there were a way to keep track of taxable sales... If only....
Then, these owners would have the proof to fight the man! I see a great opportunity
here.
 
2012-07-13 05:40:42 PM  
Early 20th century America was beset by chronic industrial underemployment, and endemic farm poverty that fed same. The "prosperity" of the 1920s was a bubble that led to the Great Depression. Which was ended by massive government borrowing and spending. Find another example.

The government did not invent the airplane. The government did not invent AC electrical distribution grids. The government did not invent X-rays, antibiotics, and on and on it goes.

But want the government DOES do is interfere with the creation of the above with taxes and regulation. This country can do a hell of a lot better at employing the poor if the goddam government would get the fark out of the way.

These lunch truck people are trying to employ themselves, and improve their lot in life, and the government is making their lives harder.

RIGHT NOW I am sitting on a $100K in the bank, which I am more than willing to spend on local contractors in New Hampshire to do the set up work on my future farm, but I can't spend a dime right now because I'm waiting on the Department of Environmental Protection to get around to giving me a permit to fill in a couple of 4' by 12' MUD PUDDLES, which were created by the loggers truck tires when clearing the land, but are now classified AS WETLANDS, and thus requiring a permit to fill back in.

THAT is what Republicans are referring to when they want to "get government off our backs".
 
2012-07-13 05:41:43 PM  

jigger: They used to tax them one amount, then they upped the amount considerably and are going at them whole hog
treating them like criminals.

That's not arbitrary?


Probably not. More likely the BoE HAS examined some of these establishments and created new estimates for people who, you know, don't keep accurate records.

It's real simple to stay out of the BoE's crosshairs. Have a decent accounting system, know what is subject to sales tax and what is not, and remit accordingly.

untaken_name: Do you really believe that a government agency is capable of estimating sales correctly for so many different trucks in so many different situations? Should the truck owners be penalized for not performing to the standards of the tax collection office?


Yes, and well, yes.

Do you really think that you shouldn't be penalized for not adhering to your tax obligations?

And having such an intimate understanding of this issue, I know for a fact that the BoE is quite competent in estimating sales, having just unsuccessfully defended a client in a sales tax audit.
 
2012-07-13 05:43:38 PM  
Solution: Start charging sales tax instead of estimating.
 
2012-07-13 05:44:18 PM  

mark12A: Early 20th century America was beset by chronic industrial underemployment, and endemic farm poverty that fed same. The "prosperity" of the 1920s was a bubble that led to the Great Depression. Which was ended by massive government borrowing and spending. Find another example.

The government did not invent the airplane. The government did not invent AC electrical distribution grids. The government did not invent X-rays, antibiotics, and on and on it goes.

But want the government DOES do is interfere with the creation of the above with taxes and regulation. This country can do a hell of a lot better at employing the poor if the goddam government would get the fark out of the way.

These lunch truck people are trying to employ themselves, and improve their lot in life, and the government is making their lives harder.

RIGHT NOW I am sitting on a $100K in the bank, which I am more than willing to spend on local contractors in New Hampshire to do the set up work on my future farm, but I can't spend a dime right now because I'm waiting on the Department of Environmental Protection to get around to giving me a permit to fill in a couple of 4' by 12' MUD PUDDLES, which were created by the loggers truck tires when clearing the land, but are now classified AS WETLANDS, and thus requiring a permit to fill back in.

THAT is what Republicans are referring to when they want to "get government off our backs".


Sounds like your problem was caused by your dealings with the logging trucks not the DEP.
 
2012-07-13 05:45:17 PM  

Devo: Solution: Start charging sales tax instead of estimating.

 
2012-07-13 05:45:21 PM  
Board of Equalization. Wow. People need to get the hell out of California.
 
2012-07-13 05:46:08 PM  

jigger: Remember the homeless guy in San Francisco that shined shoes and he almost had enough money to put down a deposit on an apartment, then a regulator found out about him and made him pay for a permit that wiped out his savings prolonging the time he had to be homeless? Maybe you call that anecdotal but I call it illustrative.


No. Link please? I'm rather curious now.
 
2012-07-13 05:46:09 PM  
I don't know who to be more angry at: the oppressive government making life miserable for small businesses or the immigrants who come here and disobey our laws.
 
2012-07-13 05:46:25 PM  

mark12A: I can't spend a dime right now because I'm waiting on the Department of Environmental Protection to get around to giving me a permit to fill in a couple of 4' by 12' MUD PUDDLES, which were created by the loggers truck tires when clearing the land, but are now classified AS WETLANDS, and thus requiring a permit to fill back in.


Come on. You've got to be making that up.


The_Six_Fingered_Man: It's real simple to stay out of the BoE's crosshairs.


Are you so sure about that?

Maybe to stay out of their crosshairs, you need to hire a lawyer and an accountant that work for tacos.
 
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